new---new

paramatma and bhagavan are mainly vaishnava terminology used to describe the two features of the ultimate reality paramatma = localized feature of god in the heart .. i presume paramatma experience would be seeing god in the heart during meditation... Bhagavan = personal form of god like ram or krishna ..and personal experience would be seeing personal form of god..... for advaitins everything and all forms originate from brahman alone ....therefore there is nothing besides the bhraman

man you are lucky......

marg = path bhakti marg= bhakti yoga = devotional path same with jnana ..path of inquiry.. If one has brahman realization the concepts of paramatma and bhagwan will no longer matter to him........ though externally he may continue to speak about bhagwan and paramatma ... because from where he is situated everything is done by god (krishna if the realized one was a krishan devotee).. according to him not a leaf can move without gods will.... i know this may be confusing to you please re read my post on how jnanis talk ... unless you understand that, it is difficult to understand what brahman realization is..... again paramatma realizations and bhagawan realizations are not realizations as much as they are experiences..... if one constantly meditates in the heart on one ista deva(krishna for example) one will ultimately be able to see krishna in the heart however that is not the same thing as having liberation.... if one does a lot of mantra jaap of one ista deva .. krishna for example ..and is full of bhakti one will ultimately be able to see krishna in person .... even such an experience will be temperory and is not the same as liberation.....

Ramakrishna still comes in the dreams of one of my friends and guides him ....... i value direct experience more than theory ........ by the way the jnani part was my conclusion on discussions between ramanna maharishi and his diciples..... but i agree i underestimated the forumn members here ....... i accept defeat ........and accept you as my guru ..........i learnt something new from you.......i need to learn to keep my mouth shut...... by the way i have no desire to convert ....because i have no alternative to offer ...... just do what your guru says.................just try not so much to ridicule other beliefs ...... and other personalities......especially the likes of ramakrishna and sankaracharya......

JayaMahaDevi... I cant reply to your PM as i have less than 30 posts as of now ..which is the min requirement to post a PM .... but you can find Tripura Rahasya... jnana khand online in english ... if u just google it you will find .....the jnana khand only explains the philosophy ...........the actual practices involved to reach that state.... are not available as with most tantras.......at best it serves as a good mental exercise .......but not of much practical value......... as far as the several levels of interpretations of scriptures are concerned ......one can get a better understanding if one considers different interpretations of gita ..... jnana and bhakti interpretations are common ....what completely blew me away was the kriya yogic interpretation .......which equates the 5 pandavas with the 5 chakras ... arjun being the swahistana the naval chakra .......and how activating it was paramount to free flow of kundilini............. and again when we consider the devi mahatmaya ... the kunjika strotra which contains the navarn mantra ......and as i was reading through some of the tantra practices .....i realized that the navarn mantra is associated with swahistana chakra............about the kunjika it is said that it is the key to the devi mahatmaya ............and the similarity becomes apparent............... theres a lot i can speak about ...but i dont even know where to start ........if there is anything specific that you are looking for then i can perhaps point to the sources........

on that point i disagree........ prabhupada who was a student and considered himself be unliberated .......and prabhupada the acharya who is liberated ...are two different personalities .......that is what i am trying to explain .... though externally they appear to be the same person......... i understand that what i am proposing might be quite discomforting to vaishnavas ...as it would strike at some of their... core beliefs........... but if only u ask yourself why at one time the student of a guru considers himself to be unliberated ...ultimately takes up a position that there was no fall...........it is clear the there was no fall for the person who is now speaking ...and as far as the former unliberated speaker is concerned ....he simply ceases to be .......... an ego switch has clearly happened ..even though the body remains the same...................in cases of extream bhakti the ego switch is clearly observable..........ramakrishna sometimes used to be so filled with bhakti ..for kali that he would take a garland for her and put it around his own neck...................neem karoli baba at times used to say that he was nothing ..and at other times say "i am the guru of all".......... but this is something we can choose to disagree ................i usually avoid discussing with vaishnavas ............ its better for them to just follow the rules than ask questions ................ ...

I am impressed with your conclusion.........the authors of BG ,Sb vedas ,upanishads etc must be ashamed......:P:P i can explain how advaitins talk ..but its quite boring.................. if anyone's really interested then heres what happens..... if u ask a jnani how he talks and who does he talk to ... he will reply that he never talks and he is only a witness ........now this is quite frustrating for the observer(lets say observer A) because the observer thinks that either the jnani is crazy or is lying or ..but here what s goes on.......... what the observerA sees in front of him is a jnani as a man ...... while the one who speaks through the jnani is identifying himself with the bhraman.....the speaker doesnt identify himself with the body of jnani ........for the jnani he is simply observing his own body as he is observing any other body ........ for the jnani the world functions automatically according to individual karmas......(which appear individual to teh obesrver ) ) for the jnani the body of the jnani (as observed by observer A and whihch appears to be preaching to observer A functions automatically......according to its former karma............. what is happening here is that the individual who formerly acted as a normal individual on attaining self realization Undergoes an "ego switch" and now identifies himself as brahman......it is a state of experience......... Interestingly one common theme between those who reach this state through jnana marg or bhakti marg is that both of them claim that there is never a fall for the jiva........ now as perplexing as this may be for the jivas who find themselves trapped in a dual world ...........it is experentially true for the self realized ......... what ultimately happens in both cases is that there is an "ego switch" form individual person to bhraman ...however externally the bhakata carries on his activities as a bhakiti philosopher and a bhakti acharya according to his former karmas ......and the follower of the jnan marga externally appears to continue with his preaching through jnan and becomes a jnani monk ........ however in both the cases the bhakta and the jnani lose their individuality ........... loss of individuality and liberation doesnt mean end of the world or destruction of mind and body ....it simply means switch of ego from individual to that of bhraman........ as such the liberation is from ones own limited ego..... such realized souls are called jivan muktas .......... if anyone wants to understand more i will be more than happy to give a reading list.................. but as i have mentioned n number of times ...... stick to the rules and the guru and do the sadhana and the mantras ......... cheers..

here's one of my posts from another forum........ hope it clarifies the rigvedic declaration........ when scriptures say that at first vishnu was lying on the great ocean (read ocean=consciousness,visnu = vishwa(universe)+ anu(atom) i.e one that permeades every atom of the universe = SPACE)... lying on sesh......(sesh mathamatically means remainder ....I.E REMAINDER OF KARMAS WHICH MAKES SOULS TO BE BORN.(in vishnu===in space).....(SESH IS TAMASIC)...... now from visnu's navel a lotus springs up and from lotus bhrama is born .....bhrama is the first indiavidual in space (duality has arrived)....... now bhrama is troubled by the two demons madhu(means too much ) and kaitabh(too little ) ie excess of indulgence and desire for more indulgence (what he has is perceived to be too little).........bhrama is the first fallen soul (according to prabhupada when a soul falls he first becomes bhrama).........now vishnu is god of maintainence because ... a world of duality can only exist(MAINTAINED)only in SPACE and TIME..............BHRAMA is the god of creation because the world exists only relatively (percieved by bhrama who see himself to be seperate from space(visnnu) and time(shiva,ie kala,ie maha kala) ........ now bhrama is the the lord of creation falls for saraswati his own daughter (saraswati is knowledge(GODDESS OF )(I.E ...RELATIVE KNOWLEDGE)....... saraswati is said to be bhramas daughter because she is born of him ....I.E. she is not created by vishnu(space) or time (kala ,shiva).......BOTTOM LINE = RELATIVE KNOWLEDGE IS BORN OF "THE KNOWER".......... now shiva the god of destruction is a state where the difference between the perciever ,the percieved and perception ....is lost (those who really want to understand please read the "tripura rahasya.".......if you manage to understand it you will be very pissed to find out what you do ...it is an advaitic and a sakta text).......... shiva is a state of monoism .....the scriptures say that there is no such thing as shiva and soul for where there is a soul shiva is not and where there is shiva there is no soul(duality ie the difference between the perciever and the percieved is lost)...it is the state of advaitic moksh or buddhist nirvana........it is beyond duality .....of existance and non existance............it is in this context that the statement (EKAM BHARM DWITIYA NASTI........is to be understood ..........EKAM BHRAM...ETC......DOES NOT MEAN THERE IS ONE GOD ...........IT MEANS THERE IS ONLY "ONE".......call this "ONE" as god or bhram or parabhram or WHATEVER.........but where this "ONE" exists there is no other ......... also the superiority of one god over the other is relative superiority of one tattva over other ........when scripture say that shiva is supreme because neither vishnu or bhrama could find his beginning or end ........it means THE STATE OF SHIVAHOOD CANNOT BE PERCIEVED,OR KNOWN IN SPACE(vishnu)OR BY BHRAMA(relative knower)....BECAUSE WHERE THERE IS SHIVA THERE IS NO OTHER ............... WHEN SCRIPTURES SAY THAT VISHNU IS SUPREME ...IT IS INDEED TRUE BECAUSE WHERE THERE IS PERCEPTION OF VISHNU(space..in a duality world) ....THERE IS NO SHIVA.(state of oneness)................ AGAIN THE SCRIPTURES AT TIMES TALK ABOUT VISHNU AS space TATTVA and at other time as PARABHRAM .............at times they talk about SHIVA ..as TIME tattva ...and at other times as parabhram.......................all statement of scriptures are true when understood in the right context........but in this day and age people have neither time nor inclination to research everything .... PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT THE ABOVE INTERPRETATION OF THE SCRIPTURES IS BASED ON THE INTERPRETATION ACCORDING TO THE "TATTAVAS"but there are many interpretations....based on jnana,bhakti,mantras,tantras,yagnas,kriyas(for kriya yogis).......etc...... the rishis who wrote the scriptures were GENIOUS.... but as JALALUDDIN RUMI ... the sufi mystic would say ......"we have all said and heard ..but as for the way to go Words are no prepration........ so everyone ..lets stop fighting ....just do your daily practice ..follow the rules ..and follow your guru....walking the path will reveal the truth through experience ..and then you would need no theory..........

why bother with advaita......besides it is quite boring .....atleast i find it boring ........and besides i never claimed to be a follower of advaita......The difference between my beliefs and vaishnava beliefs is that vaishnavas belive that their philosophy is absolutely correct ..while i think it is "relatively" correct ...... but then the same applies to advaita and the buddhist philosophies which i believe are relatively correct ...... and why should anyone be surprised ...dont the vaishnava acharyas agree that the path of liberation for advaitans is a valid one ...though they believe that the path of personal bhakti is a superior one....... i too beleive that personal bhakti is superior to path of jnana ........ why dont you guys click on "---" and go through my other posts to understand what i believe in .......

well let me put it this way .......the mind is the "conscious quality of the atma"....... for example heat and light are qualities of fire .......... when we say fire it automatically means fire has the qualities of heat and light ........... in the same way when we say atma or soul ..it automatically means it has a mind ........for in the absence of mind there is no perciever ...and it would be impossible to speak of atma .......... can you think of any other quality of atma? besides its ablility to think???............ therefore it can be said tthat ultimately there is nothing to an atma besides the mind .....atleast in any " measurable terms ".....so this is as far as buddha went ............ however hindus ....and It was vivekananda in recent times .....who argued ...that just because what is beyond the mind is not measureable doesnt automatically mean that there is nothing beyond the mind .....and therefore the hindus propose the existance of brahman as the substratum ...the ONE SINGLE origin of alll the minds.......this brahman also equated with vishnu (which according to tatttva intrepretation is vishva + anu one that permeades every atom = space)........ now again the mind (as we understand in english)is further classified or rather qualified as 1)Ego= ahankara (self identifying thought of the mind) 2)buddhi = intellect ..(.discriminatory faculty of the mind=ultimately made up of thoughts only) 3)Manas = memory (store house of smaskaras,habits,i.e. memory... which is nothing but thoughts and impressions of previous experience as an individual...) It needs to be NOTED that while originally the first thought of individuality was only a single thought "I" ...... it Become a very strong individuality because of ever expanding MANAS.. the storehouse of individual memory,samskaras and experiences........ the individual "SOULS" are the various many individual thoughts of "I" which arise in brahman ..and over a period of time become strongly individual because of an ever increasing "manas" the store house of past individual habits and experiences......... I prefer not to speak any further on this topic atleast in this forum which is mainly vaishnava........... the best thing to do is follow the rules ....and the guru ..... do the mantras ..and stick to sattvik diet........... following the rules will bring about experiences ...and the truth will reveal itself ........ why waste time on theory......... Hare krishna is a powerful mahamantra ........and i have great respect for the the vaishnava path........... hare krishna PS ahankara(ego) buddhi(intellect) and manas(memory).... all survive the death of the gross body( gross body itself is a projected thought)...... though forgetfullness temporarily affects buddhi(intellect) and manas( memor) which is our original memory and which survives the physical destruction of brain..........................it can be revived in the next life by the means of sadhana and meditation...........

yes mind only is conscious....... I am busy till tuesday 8th jan .....after that I can perhaps explain....

the word body ...for kosha... is a mistranslation..... it simply means a sheath or a layer..... ...... there is no body ... the body is an illusion (seemingly real) in the mind.... mind(mana)is made of thoughts revolving around an individuality "i" the ego which itself is a thought only.when an indivdual experiences the world he experiences in the individual mind ....in the state of moksh the dynamic world of creation and destruction continues....however there is no individual there to string together experiences and create an individual experience of the worldly phenonenon..... again according to upanishads the breath and the mind are the same ....the rishis who explain the path fo jnana as means to liberation speak in terms of mind......while the rishis who prefer the path of yoga and the control of breath as a means to control the mind speak in terms of breath.........both are the same thing........if u want to know more please read a lot ........ better still find a good sadguru and do spiritual practices ....theory is a waste of time.... PS there is no such thing as "soul" seperate from the mind ..... all thoughts arise in bhraman as waves arise in an ocean....... with the rise of thoughts there is a rise of many thoughts of "i" which are limited egos confined in time and space ...these limited egos are what we call as souls..... or jivas.... they are not created .....they are not fallen.....they simply arise ....and because they arise there is no control over them and therefore some follow the sattvic path ..some the rajasic path and some the tamasic path .........*** **** *** would ever create tamasic beings and bring about suffering to innocent people"...A word to the w***.............

Anxiety is the side effect of the necessary evil called "Rules" in any organized religion........ while the rules are ultimately helpful in the evolution of a soul they are not always "necessary" and have no inherent "merit" form any moral point of view .... however they should be followed as best as possible until they start bearing fruits ....i,e, until they help bring about spiritual experiences.At that point you will realize that there was no need for being anxious .....and no god is ever going to be angry.........the anxiety is a result of personal dissatisfaction with self effort......so it is best to do sadhana without expecting anything........without expecting oneself to follow all the rules at all the times...... be at peace and do sadhana without any pressure......but do it regularly ..........until it bears fruit......you've seeded the farm and have watered it. it would be a waste to stop now....continue watering ...until the harvest season..........nature doesnt bear fruits ..until the harvest season..........if you want the fruits....then you have to follow the "law of the farm".....and hey i dont like the law either.....but its a fact....cheers.

go to sarangpur temple in gujarat ...... over there they cure people affected with black magic or ghosts......the temple is called kasthbhanjan dev hanuman mandir ..... ir is located at Sarangpur which is 3 to 4 hr drive from ahmedabad......you can find many buses which go from the bus depot ..which is 5 to 10 mins in a rickshaw from the railway station..........go there as soon as possible....... and in the mean time do hanuman chalisa and bajrang baan........ if u do an oil diya when u do hanuman chaaleesa then even better ...... Regards

Dude ... if this is true ... i.e. prabhupada publicly calling ramakrishna a fool......then i too am shocked......... r u really sure ..?...... one thing to keep in mind is that prabhupada was preaching to vaishnavas.. who are .....sorry to say this in this forum........are the neophytes as far as spiritual understanding.......is concerned.............but i think ....it is for the rest of us ..to understand this and not be unduly harsh on vaishnavas......for being so closed minded. they will learn ..in their own sweet time......... Besides ..there is no need for anyone to be surprised about hayagriev instructing agastya to worship goddess............as even in the mahabharata......krishna instructs arjuna to worship Durga before the war..... The Bottomline is this ........ If someone wants to change something in this Material world ... then he will have to worship the material energy ........if someone is only interested in his liberation then he doesnt need to do anything .... like prahlada..... he can just do bhakti...... but in such a situation .....ones patience is likely to be fully tested .....all kinds of miseries were brought upon phralada but he had full faith and was saved ..... however in case of arjuna ...krishna knowing his kshatriya nature .instructs arjun to worship shiva and durga and acquire divine weapons.......and krishna even says this in the geeta where he says to arjuna that even if he leaves the battlefield and decides to live by begging .....he will be forced to come to the battlefield driven by his kshatriya nature...indirectly telling him that he will be unable to bear injustice ......... so if a material end needs to be achieved the one needs to worship durga or any of her forms ..........besides if one worships durga without any expectations then that will still count as karma yoga and bring about spritual progress and liberation....... the best thing vaishnavas can do is follow the guru chant their rounds and stick to sattvik diet ........practice will bring experiences and all doubts will be cleared.......

More time wasted ..... Better to chant ,stick to sattvik diet ,follow the guru..... Understanding can come either through "theory" or through "direct experience"... Theoretical understanding is an ever shifting "goal post" Only understanding derived from direct experience can be sustained.... Experience will come FASTER to those who sincerely follow the rules and if they can get guru's grace...... the guru can be a iskconite ,non iskconite,shaiva or shakta..... the STUDENT who accepts a theoretical belief system (vaishnavism ,shaivism,shaktism) has absolutely "NO AUTHORITY".... and his /her ENDORSEMENT of any system is USELESS because his/her understanding of shastras is a "FROG IN A WELL UNDERSTANDING" "The scriptures cannot be understood without guru's grace". All belief systems are abusive to a STUDENT because they force him/her to believe things which are ILLOGICAL.however when followed according to the rules can be VERY HELPFUL. better to follow the rules ,chant etc a word to the wise.The rebels however will ultimately gain better theoretical understanding at the risk of diluting his/her faith in his/her own beliefs. Follow not your heart ...follow not your brain .......follow your intution ... the antaryamin.

theory is such a waste of time ...... better to chant ..... hare krishna.....

if you are still looking for a solution guest7 .. the go to hanuman temple in sarangpur gujarat ...it is 3 -4 hours drive from ahmedabad ...you can catch a bus from the local depot to get there ........In this temple people with ghost and black magic troubles are cured ...... the ghosts wil try to stop u from getting there ... so in the meantime do hanuman chalisa...... it is a very famous temple in gujarat .. just ask anyone in ahmedabad as to how to get there and they will guide you ......

when scriptures say that at first vishnu was lying on the great ocean (read ocean=consciousness,visnu = vishwa(universe)+ anu(atom) i.e one that permeades every atom of the universe = SPACE)... lying on sesh......(sesh mathamatically means remainder ....I.E REMAINDER OF KARMAS WHICH MAKES SOULS TO BE BORN.(in vishnu===in space).....(SESH IS TAMASIC)...... now from visnu's navel a lotus springs up and from lotus bhrama is born .....bhrama is the first indiavidual in space (duality has arrived)....... now bhrama is troubled by the two demons madhu(means too much ) and kaitabh(too little ) ie excess of indulgence and desire for more indulgence (what he has is perceived to be too little).........bhrama is the first fallen soul (according to prabhupada when a soul falls he first becomes bhrama).........now vishnu is god of maintainence because ... a world of duality can only exist(MAINTAINED)only in SPACE and TIME..............BHRAMA is the god of creation because the world exists only relatively (percieved by bhrama who see himself to be seperate from space(visnnu) and time(shiva,ie kala,ie maha kala) ........ now bhrama is the the lord of creation falls for saraswati his own daughter (saraswati is knowledge(GODDESS OF )(I.E ...RELATIVE KNOWLEDGE)....... saraswati is said to be bhramas daughter because she is born of him ....I.E. she is not created by vishnu(space) or time (kala ,shiva).......BOTTOM LINE = RELATIVE KNOWLEDGE IS BORN OF "THE KNOWER".......... now shiva the god of destruction is a state where the difference between the perciever ,the percieved and perception ....is lost (those who really want to understand please read the "tripura rahasya.".......if you manage to understand it you will be very pissed to find out what you do ...it is an advaitic and a sakta text).......... shiva is a state of monoism .....the scriptures say that there is no such thing as shiva and soul for where there is a soul shiva is not and where there is shiva there is no soul(duality ie the difference between the perciever and the percieved is lost)...it is the state of advaitic moksh or buddhist nirvana........it is beyond duality .....of existance and non existance............it is in this context that the statement (EKAM BHARM DWITIYA NASTI........is to be understood ..........EKAM BHRAM...ETC......DOES NOT MEAN THERE IS ONE GOD ...........IT MEANS THERE IS ONLY "ONE".......call this "ONE" as god or bhram or parabhram or WHATEVER.........but where this "ONE" exists there is no other ......... also the superiority of one god over the other is relative superiority of one tattva over other ........when scripture say that shiva is supreme because neither vishnu or bhrama could find his beginning or end ........it means THE STATE OF SHIVAHOOD CANNOT BE PERCIEVED,OR KNOWN IN SPACE(vishnu)OR BY BHRAMA(relative knower)....BECAUSE WHERE THERE IS SHIVA THERE IS NO OTHER ............... WHEN SCRIPTURES SAY THAT VISHNU IS SUPREME ...IT IS INDEED TRUE BECAUSE WHERE THERE IS PERCEPTION OF VISHNU(space..in a duality world) ....THERE IS NO SHIVA.(state of oneness)................ AGAIN THE SCRIPTURES AT TIMES TALK ABOUT VISHNU AS space TATTVA and at other time as PARABHRAM .............at times they talk about SHIVA ..as TIME tattva ...and at other times as parabhram.......................all statement of scriptures are true when understood in the right context........but in this day and age people have neither time nor inclination to research everything .... PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT THE ABOVE INTERPRETATION OF THE SCRIPTURES IS BASED ON THE INTERPRETATION ACCORDING TO THE "TATTAVAS"but there are many interpretations....based on jnana,bhakti,mantras,tantras,yagnas,kriyas(for kriya yogis).......etc...... the rishis who wrote the scriptures were GENIOUS.... but as JALALUDDIN RUMI ... the sufi mystic would say ......"we have all said and heard ..but as for the way to go Words are no prepration........ if anyone thinks that any of the rishis or a saint was a fool then he needs to look into the mirror to find an even greater fool(please dont take this personally---A request to all) so everyone ..lets stop fighting ....just do your daily practice ..follow the rules ..and follow your guru....walking the path will reveal the truth through experience ..and then you would need no theory..........

i am really pressed for time ... so i guess i can only ask you to go through my previous post Kelly...... scriptures are not false ..but rather they are more advanced than science ...and explain advance concepts ........which today's scientists are slowly beginning to understand .............. what we call classical science is really a house ......rather a mountain of cards.....and you just have to pull one card and all advance science comes crashing down......... for example take the definitation of a 'point' and its relation to 'line' now a line exists in one dimension (but what is the breadth of a line ????? breadth cannot be defined in one dimension... as in one dimension only length exists..... now can you imagine a line with no breadth but only "length".....I.E ZERO BREADTH.....OR INFINITE BREADTH "WHY DONT YOU TRY DRAWING ONE ....IT WILL REALLY BE INTERESTING "....... NOW IF U CANT EVEN DRAW A LINE AS DEFINED BY SCIENCE .......HOW MUCH IS ALL THE MATHEMATICAL AND GEOMETRICAL FORMULAE REALLY "WORTH" I have given you just one example ........but if you apply your mind you can find such anamolies everywhere........for example in "numerical system".... what is the relation between 0 and 1..... how do you arrive at one ......what is absolute zero ........ is it possible to define absolute zero?....... i am not going into detail because as i mentioned earlier i am pressed for time ............ now that u know that science is not foolproof ....and is based on lot of assumptions ......ie .."GOOD FAITH"...... so do you still believe in darwins theory ..i mean based on the chronological records backed by carbon dating.....??? but then isnt darwins theory based on the concept of linear time ???? now can time be linear AT ALL .......when in the above example we just prooved that EVEN A LINE CANT BE LINEAR AS WE UNDERSTAND IT.... lets talk about scriptures ..... when scriptures say that at first vishnu was lying on the great ocean (read ocean=consciousness,visnu = vishwa(universe)+ anu(atom) i.e one that permeades every atom of the universe = SPACE)... lying on sesh......(sesh mathamatically means remainder ....I.E REMAINDER OF KARMAS WHICH MAKES SOULS TO BE BORN......(SESH IS TAMASIC)...... now from visnu's navel a lotus springs up and from lotus bhrama is born .....bhrama is the first indiavidual in space (duality has arrived)....... now bhrama is troubled by the two demons madhu(means too much ) and kaitabh(too little ) ie excess of indulgence and desire for more indulgence (what he has is perceived to be too little).........bhrama is the first fallen soul (according to prabhupada when a soul falls he first becomes bhrama).........now vishnu is god of maintainence because ... a world of duality can only exist(MAINTAINED)only in SPACE and TIME..............BHRAMA is the god of creation because the world exist only relatively (percieved by bhrama who see himself to be seperate from space(visnnu) and time(shiva,ie kala,ie maha kala) ........ now bhrama is the the lord of creation falls for saraswati his own daughter (saraswati is knowledge(GODDESS OF )(I.E ...RELATIVE KNOWLEDGE)....... saraswati is said to be bhramas daughter because she is born of him ....I.E. she is not created by vishnu(space) or time (kala ,shiva).......BOTTOM LINE = RELATIVE KNOWLEDGE IS BORN OF "THE KNOWER".......... now shiva the god of destruction is a state where the difference between the perciever ,the percieved and perception ....is lost (those who really want to understand please read the tripura rahasya........if you manage to understand it you will be very pissed to find out what you do ...it is an advaitic and a sakta text).......... shiva is a state of monoism .....the scriptures say that there is no such thing as shiva and soul for where there is a soul shiva is not and where there is shiva there is no soul(duality ie the difference between the perciever and the percieved is lost)...it is the state of advaitic moksh or buddhist nirvana........it is beyond duality .....of existance and non existance............it is in this context that the statement (EKAM BHARM DWITIYA NASTI........is to be understood ..........EKAM BHRAM...ETC......DOES NOT MEAN THERE IS ONE GOD ...........IT MEANS THERE IS ONLY "ONE".......call this "ONE" as god or bhram or parabhram or WHATEVER.........but where this "ONE" exists there is no other ......... also the superiority of one god over the other is relative superiority of one tattva over other ........when scripture say that shiva is supreme because neither vishnu or bhrama could find his beginning or end ........it means THE STATE OF SHIVAHOOD CANNOT BE PERCIEVED,OR KNOWN IN SPACE(vishnu)OR BY BHRAMA(relative knower)....BECAUSE WHERE THERE IS SHIVA THERE IS NO OTHER ............... WHEN SCRIPTURES SAY THAT VISHNU IS SUPREME ...IT IS INDEED TRUE BECAUSE WHERE THERE IS PERCEPTION OF VISHNU ....THERE IS NO SHIVA................. AGAIN THE SCRIPTURES AT TIMES TALK ABOUT VISHNU AS space TATTVA and at other time as PARABHRAM .............at times they talk about SHIVA ..as TIME tattva ...and at other times as parabhram.......................all statement of scriptures are true when understood in the right context........but in this day and age people have neither time nor inclination to research everything .... PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT THE ABOVE INTERPRETATION OF THE SCRIPTURES IS BASED ON THE INTERPRETATION ACCORDING TO THE "TATTAVAS"but there are many interpretations....based on jnana,bhakti,mantras,tantras,yagnas,kriyas(for kriya yogis).......etc...... the rishis who wrote the scriptures were GENIOUS.... but as JALALUDDIN RUMI ... the sufi mystic would say ......"we have all said and heard ..but as for the way to go Words are no prepration........ so my advice still is .. continue doing you daily practice sincerely ...... mantras etc .....stick to sattvic diet ...... avoid sex.......and as u progress .....you will have some experiences ....which will confirm many of the things in the scriptures.......if u find a great guru progress will be quick..... PS : ON SECOND THOUGHTS ...WAS I SUPPOSED TO ASK YOU TO CHOOSE BETWEEN THE BLUE PILL AND THE RED PILL....BEFORE POSTING THIS ........

hello both scientific theories and religious theories are based on so many unproovable assumptions that its easy to get hold of one point of view and disproove others ............ if u want to look at faults ....you can find them in all religions and in all scientific theories.............simplistically speaking ...........religion assumes that chaos comes from order ..........ie god is the cause of all the shit in the world(devil cannot do anything in the kingdom of all powerful god and if he can do something against gods will then god is not all powerful......so all bad things happen because god chooses not to interfere(i doubt very much)....... on the other hand ....sciences assumes that .....order comes from chaos .... ..which again is difficult to believe ...because chemical can react .....but they dont react to form human beings .....or for that matter living beings.......besides how do we define what is living and what is not living ???............for example ..in our dream world .... our floors our houses ..etc are all imaginary and not alive ....but they are created in our minds ..l an illusion ....so is illusion dead or alive????.......... this question is important because scriptures define this world to be a dream of mahavishnu..........and just as in dreams ...things just happen ....god bad and ugly ......so also things happen in this world ......as this collective illusion of souls who are part and parcels of mahavishnu .............is made up of three gunas(qualities)....sattva(goodness) rajas(passion) and ignorance(tamas)..... and vishnu (mahavishnu is sleeping and dreaming and so the souls are under illusion and are asleep though they think they are awake.............the only beings awake in this collective dream....are those who know that this is a dream (maya).........and by practice and training..........the awake(buddhas,siddhas,gurus,goswamis..etc ) can to a certain extent exert their influence in this world...(like lucid dreamers influence their dreams)........however those who are truly awake dont feel the need to change anything in this world ....as they dont think it is real ...and the moment they start taking the world seriously ...they risk coming under the illusion...............so the shit exists in the world ...... without god intending it to be there........thats what i conclude........ even if u are satisfied with what i have just said........i personally think theories are prettymuch useless........i personally value experiences more than theory ..........and while i too have been throough what u are going through (and i had 3 fallback options which i ultimately rejected because when i was undergoing difficulties times i dug in my heels and started asking the difficult questions..............because i wanted to get to the bottom of things.......... ultimately however ....if u are willing to take my advice.............then i suggest u continue with you dicipline ....and follow the regulations (chanting ,sattvic food etc.....very very strictly.............because loss of faith and asking the difficult questions may help u find theoratically satisfying answeres but wont be much help when it comes to experiences..........)while having faith will help u know things with the help of personal experiences ........and if u have a qualified guru........that will help u a lot...................in fact it will be all the difference between success and failure ................. know that at this moment it is more appropriate for you to continue believing what you do ...........and the meanings will become clearer..as you progress.............what you believe now is not false .....but just that you are not familiar with the terminology used in the scriptures and so there is a lot of room for misunderstandings ......... all scriptures have many levels of understanding ........for example we have bhagvad gita interpreted by bhaktas,jnanis and kriayogis and their interpretation differs .......it doesnt mean that only one interpretation is correct and others are wrong ........though bhakta intrepretation generally claim that their interpretation is the only true interpretation....... if mosts things in your life are otherwise fine ..........then stop doubting because it is such a waste of time ..instead ...keep following the regulations ....and take spirituality seriously ..........because if u are not serious now then when the difficulties come ..it will be difficult to keep the faith.................and experiences are easier to come by where there is faith.............i say this because i ve been there........

krishna didnt marry radha...... but Ram did marry Sita......... why dont you worship Sitaram......if u like maryada ...then for people like you god did incarcate and did his leelas as maryada purushottam .......but that doesnt mean that he will limit himself to just that........

it is very simple do exactly what is written in it ........for that particular yoga....

Vigraha, can you please clarify what do you mean when you say " many before have passed through" pass through what ? "trouble and bad times " or " his biological body"........

mr vmsunder.... why is this thread named "Lord shiva is ultimate"?.... can you proove it?....... if not then ...... let vaishnavas worship vishnu as supreme........ as far as bhagavatam is concerned ..it says "whoever distinguishes between har and hari will go to the hell called raurava" as far as lalitha sahasranama is concerned it says that to a thousand names of vishnu one of shiva would suffice and to a thousand names of shiva one of devi would suffice....... here again shiva is not said to be supreme..... so...... beside when scriptures say that shiva killed vishnu.....they are talking about tattvas .....shiva = bhram (ekam one only ...it is a state of realisation).. vishnu(vishwa + anu)= that which permeades every atom of the universe =space thus duality can exist only in space ..... and when oneness (shiva) is realised there is no other........thus when scriptures talk about shiva killing vishnu ..it means duality giving way for the realisation of one..... however you have to concede that most of us are trapped in a duality experience .....and therefore its pointless talk abbout oneness ... because if oneness existed for everyone then who would be speaking to whom?.. therefore ramanuj's theory is sound when he talks of dwaitadwait... besides most theory is useless .......and if one follows ones gurus properly he would be blessed with direct experience and then no doubts would remain ........personally ... i would recommend vaishnavisam more than shaivaism simply because vaishnavaism increases bhakti and the feeling of surrender .........and also it places strict rules of conduct and food habits which are essential if one wants quick progress .......besides vaishnavisam is karmically the safest as if one doesnt achieve liberation he doesnt suffer much as he is karmically not involved in violent actions like animal slaughter or aggression ....as these would otherwise bring grave sufferings..........