Sarva gattah

And the superior is divided into two (not literally), Vishnu tattva and jiva tattva. So there are actually three energies - Vishnu tattva, jiva tattva and mahat-tattva (lifeless) In between means inbetween the Vishnu tattva potencies and the maha-tattva potencies. It is not a place it is what the jiva tattva is and is also called tatastha sakti BECAUSE of being in-between

marginal (tatastha sakti)

tatastha = marginal = jiva tattva, it is what it is

Good point, at least I put Krishna in the heading. They told us they would wait another 10 years before revealing we are already here

Obama to Lift Ban on Overseas Abortion Funding President Obama is expected to sign the executive order one day after the 36th anniversary of the landmark Roe v. Wade Supreme Court ruling that legalized abortion in all 50 states. President Obama on Friday is expected to lift a ban on federal funding for international groups that promote or perform abortions, reversing a policy of his predecessor, George W. Bush.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Obama will sign the executive order one day after the 36th anniversary of the landmark Roe v. Wade Supreme Court ruling that legalized abortion in all 50 states.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The move, long expected in the Democratic president's first week in office, will be welcomed by liberals and criticized by abortion rights foes.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The so-called Mexico City policy requires any non-governmental organization to agree before receiving U.S. funds that they will "neither perform nor actively promote abortion as a method of family planning in other nations."<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> It is also known as the "global gag rule," because it prohibits taxpayer funding for groups that even talk about abortion if there is an unplanned pregnancy.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The policy was first instituted by President Ronald Reagan in 1984 and continued by President George H.W. Bush. The policy was reversed by President Bill Clinton in 1993, and re-instated by President George W. Bush in 2001.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Both Obama and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, who will oversee foreign aid, had promised to do away with the gag rule during the presidential campaign. Clinton is to visit the U.S. Agency for International Development, through which much U.S. foreign aid is disbursed, later on Friday.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Organizations that had pressed Obama to make the abortion-ban change were jubilant.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> "Women's health has been severely impacted by the cutoff of assistance. "President Obama's actions will help reduce the number of unintended pregnancies, abortions and women dying from high-risk pregnancies because they don't have access to family planning," said Tod Preston, a spokesman for Population Action International, an advocacy group.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Obama has spent his first days in office systematically signing executive orders reversing Bush administration policies on issues ranging from foreign policy to government operations. On Thursday, he signed three executive orders to rein in secretive U.S. counterterror policies and end harsh interrogations Just another ignorant fool in the White House???

It means from the marginal position that all jivas ARE. Also no jivas are created, no volley of jivas are growing out of a plain sheet of consciousness and expanding the creation, because they are eternal. Tatastha is NOT a place in the creation, it is simply another name for marginal living entity or jiva tattva taṭasthā — the marginal potency; CC Madhya 6.160 taṭastha-lakṣaṇa — marginal characteristics; CC Madhya 18.126 taṭasthā — marginal; CC Madhya 20.108-109 taṭastha-lakṣaṇa — the marginal characteristics; CC Madhya 20.356 taṭastha-lakṣaṇa — the marginal symptoms; CC Madhya 20.357 taṭastha-lakṣaṇa — marginal characteristics; CC Madhya 20.362 taṭastha-lakṣaṇe — marginal symptoms; CC Madhya 22.106 taṭastha-lakṣaṇa — the marginal symptom; CC Madhya 22.151 taṭastha — marginal; CC Madhya 23.6

The foremost meaning of the word ‘marginal’ is the ability for one to use their free will and choose to remain either Krishna Conscious as their endless Svarupa body in Vaikuntha, or material conscious in counterfeit bodily vessels in the material creation or mahat-tattva.” Marginal is the English transliteration of the word “tatastha

The jiva is the tatastha sakti of the Lord, also called the jiva sakti or marginal potency, the jiva doesn’t go there, it is not a place you can go to, it is what he is.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> jivera ’svarupa’ haya — krsnera ‘nitya-dasa’<o:p></o:p> krsnera ‘tatastha-sakti’ ‘bhedabheda-prakasa’<o:p></o:p> suryamsa-kirana, yaiche agni-jvala-caya<o:p></o:p> svabhavika krsnera tina-prakara ’sakti’ haya<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> SYNONYMS<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> jivera — of the living entity; svarupa — the constitutional position; haya — is; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; nitya-dasa — eternal servant; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; tatastha — marginal; sakti — potency; bheda-abheda — one and different; prakasa — manifestation; surya-amsa — part and parcel of the sun; kirana — a ray of sunshine; yaiche — as; agni-jvala-caya — molecular particle of fire; svabhavika — naturally; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; tina-prakara — three varieties; sakti — energies; haya — there are.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> TRANSLATION<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> PURPORT<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains these verses as follows: Sri Sanatana Gosvami asked Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, “Who am I?” In answer, the Lord replied, “You are a pure living entity. You are neither the gross material body nor the subtle body composed of mind and intelligence. Actually you are a spirit soul, eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Soul, Krsna. Therefore you are His eternal servant. You belong to Krsna’s marginal potency. There are two worlds — the spiritual world and the material world — and you are situated between the material and spiritual potencies. You have a relationship with both the material and the spiritual world; therefore you are called the marginal potency. You are related with Krsna as one and simultaneously different. Because you are spirit soul, you are one in quality with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but because you are a very minute particle of spirit soul, you are different from the Supreme Soul. Therefore your position is simultaneously one with and different from the Supreme Soul. The examples given are those of the sun itself and the small particles of sunshine and of a blazing fire and the small particles of fire.” Another explanation of these verses can be found in Adi-lila, Chapter Two, verse 96.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In his Paramatma Sandarbha Jiva Goswami writes:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> evam ekasya purusasya nanatvam upapadya tasya punar amsa vivriyante. atra dvi-vidha amsah svamsa vibhinnamsac ca. vibhinnamsas tatastha-cakty-atmaka jiva iti vaksyate. svamsas tu guna-lila dy-avatara-bhedena vividhah. tatra lila dy-avatarah prasagga-saggatya sri-krsna-sandarbhe vaksyante. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> evam thus; ekasya - of one; purusasya - purusa-avatar; nanatvam - variety; upapadya - is explained; tasya - of Him; punar - again; amsa - parts; vivriyante are explained; atra - here; dvi-vidha - two kinds; amsah - parts; svamsa - own parts; vibhinnamsac - separated parts; ca. - also; vibhinnamsas separated parts; tatastha-cakty- atmaka - marginal potency; jiva - individual souls; iti - thus; vaksyate. - will be explained; svamsas own parts; tu - but; guna- lila dy-avatara-bhedena - with differences oif guna and lila avataras; vividhah. - various; tatra - there; lila dy- avatarah beginning with lila avataras; prasagga-saggatya - by contact; sri-krsna-sandarbhe - in Sri Krsna-sandarbha; vaksyante. - will be explained; gunavatara guna avataras; yatha as.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In this way it has been explained that although the purusa- avatara is a single person, He nevertheless expands in many different forms. The Supreme Personality of Godhead has two kinds of expansions: 1. svamsa (personal expansions), and 2. vibhinnamsa (separated expansions). The Lord’s separated expansions are the individual spirit souls, who are all the Lord’s marginal potency (tatastha-sakti). The Lord’s personal expansions are His many incarnations, such as His guna-avatars and lila-avataras. The Lord’s lila-avataras and other incarnations will be described later in the Sri Krsna-sandarbha.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> tad evam ananta eva jivakhyas tatasthah caktayah. tatra tasam varga-dvayam. eko vargo ‘nadita eva bhagavad-unmukhah. anyas tv anadita eva bhagavat-paragmukhah. svabhavatas tadiya- jnana-bhavat tadiya-jnanabhavac ca.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> tat - that; evam - thus; ananta - limitless; eva - inded; jivakhyah - called individual souls; tatasthah - marginal; caktayah. - potencies; tatra - there; tasam - of them; varga-dvayam. - two groups; ekah - one; vargah - group; anadita - from time immemorial; eva - indeed; bhagavad-unmukhah. - favorable to the Supreme Personality of Godhead; anyah - others; tv - but; anadita - from time imemmorial; eva - indeed; bhagavat-paragmukhah. - averse to the Supreme Personality of Godhead; svabhavatah - by nature; tadiya - of Him; jana - knowledge; bhavat - because of the nature; tadiya - of Him; jnana - the knowledge; abhavat - because of the absence; ca - also.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Thus the Lord’s marginal [tatasthah] potencies, who are called the individual spirit souls are limitless in number. Still, they may be divided into two groups: 1. the souls who, from time immemorial, are favorable to the Supreme Lord, and 2. the rebellious souls who, from time immemorial, are averse to the Supreme Lord. This is because one group is aware of the Lord’s glories and the other group is not aware of them. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> tatra prathamo ‘ntaragga-sakti-vilasanugrhito nitya- bhagavat-parikara-rupo garudadikah. yathoktam padmottara-khande tri-pad-vibhuter lokas tu ity adau bhagavat-sandarbhodahrte. asya ca tatasthatvam jivatva-prasiddher isvaratva-kotav apravecat.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> tatra - there; prathamah - first; antaragga-sakti - internal potency; vilasa - pastimes; anugrhitah - attained the mercy; nitya - eternal; bhagavat - of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; parikara-rupah - the form of associates; garudadikah. - beginning with Garuda; yatha - as; uktam - said; padmottara-khande - in thje Padma Purana, Uttara-khanda; tri-pad-vibhuteh - of three fourths of the Lord’s potencies; lokah - the world; tu - indeed; iti - thus; adau - beginning; bhagavat-sandarbhodahrte - dessribed in the Bhagavat-sandarbha; asya - of this; ca - also; tatasthatvam - the state of ebing the marginal potency; jivatva-prasiddheh - of the proof of being the individual spirit souls; isvaratva - of the status of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; kotau - on the edge; apravecat - because of not entering.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The first group consists of Garuda and the other eternal associates of the Lord, These devotees take shelter of the Lord’s internal potency and enjoy pastimes with Him. They reside in the spiritual world, which will be described in the Bhagavat- sandarbha (anuccheda 78) where the following words of Padma Purana, Uttara-khanda are quoted:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> “Countless blissful spiritual planets are in the spiritual sky, which is three fourths of the entire creation.”<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Thus, although the nature of the individual souls is on the borderline of the nature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the individual souls do not enter that nature. Thus they remain different from the Lord. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> tad evam paramatmanas tatasthakhya saktir vivrta. antaraggakhya tu purvavad eva jYeya. atha bahiraggakhya vivriyate<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> tat - that; evam - thus; paramatmanah - of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; tatasthakhya - called the marginal potency; saktih - potency; vivrta. - revealed; antaraggakhya - called the internal potency; tu - indeed; purvavat - as before; eva - indeed; jYeya - should be known; atha - now; bahiraggakhya - called the external potency; vivriyate - is revealed.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In this way we have described the Lord’s marginal potency. we have already described the Lord’s internal potency.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> This is from Srila Prabhupada’s “Teachings of Lord Caitanya”<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The supreme knowledge of Krsna is exhibited in three different energies - internal, marginal and external. By virtue of His internal energy, He exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia; by means of His marginal energy (tatastha sakti), He exhibits Himself as the living entities, and by means of His external energy He exhibits Himself as material energy. Behind each and every energetic exhibition there is the background of eternity, pleasure, potency and full cognizance.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> This is from “Sri Caitanya’s Teachings” by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Vishnu has three energies, one of them is meant for manifestation of His eternal Abode, another potency is for creating all human souls who are emanation from His Tatastha-sakti found between the temporal and eternal worlds. By this potency He creates human souls. The human souls has two different predilections. If he desires to serve God-head he is allowed into the eternal Region. If he desires to lord it over this world he comes down for enjoying in different capacities the products of the Deluding potency. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> This position, which is like a geometrical line, is designated tatastha-sakti, the fountain-head of all human souls. Tatastha-sakti is located between the two potencies of Vishnu one of which maintains this transforming world and the other is the source of the manifestation of the eternal world that does not change like this world. These potencies belong to the Personality of God-head Vishnu <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Tathastha does not refer to a place, it does not possess a locatice meaning in the sense of being in a particular spot. Tatastha has an ontological meaning. The jiva is a sakti of the Lord, it exists as neither Cit Sakti nor as Maya Sakti, we exist in between these two categories of saktis, therefore we are called Tatastha. The place where water, as in a river an ocean or lake, where it meets the land, that is called tata. The Cit Sakti is represented by the water and the Maya Sakti us represented by the land. Since we are neither the Maya Sakti nor the Cit Sakti, neither the water or the land, we are called tatastha, or the inbetween the water and the land. The tide can cause us to be submerged in water or the tide can retreat and we can become left on the land. The jiva can be influenced and come under the dominion of the Cit Sakti or of the Maya Sakti. Either was the constitutional position of the jiva is tatastha sakti, the marginal potency, on the margin or border between 2 other potencies.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> jivera ’svarupa’ haya — krsnera ‘nitya-dasa’<o:p></o:p> krsnera ‘tatastha-sakti’ ‘bhedabheda-prakasa’<o:p></o:p> suryamsa-kirana, yaiche agni-jvala-caya<o:p></o:p> svabhavika krsnera tina-prakara ’sakti’ haya<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> SYNONYMS<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> jivera — of the living entity; svarupa — the constitutional position; haya — is; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; nitya-dasa — eternal servant; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; tatastha — marginal; sakti — potency; bheda-abheda — one and different; prakasa — manifestation; surya-amsa — part and parcel of the sun; kirana — a ray of sunshine; yaiche — as; agni-jvala-caya — molecular particle of fire; svabhavika — naturally; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; tina-prakara — three varieties; sakti — energies; haya — there are.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> TRANSLATION<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p>

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Quote:<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Beggar Ireally don't understand why so may of the posters here insist on beingso doctrinaire on this subject. From one angle of vision the spiritualbody must be obtained from another angle of vision it is something thatalready exists (from the viewpoint of eternity). It is acintya, orinconceivable how apparently opposite truths can simultaneously betrue. Debating will not give anyone the real answer and that will comeby bhakti, alone. Then when the real truth will come in our hearts wewill find that it is really not really knowledge or jnana but bhakti.When bhakti comes into our hearts we will see what is what but thatwill not be our real focus - not the desire to know Krsna, but ratherthe desire to please Krsna. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> nitya-siddha — eternally perfected; CC Madhya 6.12 <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> nitya-siddha — eternally established; CC Madhya 22.107 <o:p></o:p> nitya-siddha — eternally liberated; CC Antya 5.49-50 <o:p></o:p> nitya-siddha — eternally LIBERATED<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “You are NOT eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). You are eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA)’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,<o:p></o:p>

SRILA PRABHUPADA - "This material creation is the spirit soul's dream, all existence in this world is the dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu" .4.29.83.

Obama predicted to open secret UFO files Predictions are increasing that President Elect Barack Obama will release secret UFO files to the public. Nearly 40% of all UFO-related news articles archived by Paradigm Research Group over the last 13 years occurred in 2008. The astonishing news coverage and the events themselves prompted the predictions. In January 2008, major UFO sightings in Stephenville, TX drew global attention. The flip-flopping attempts by confused Air Force personnel to discredit the witnesses failed in light of FAA radar reports. In April, the proposed ballot initiative to create an Extraterrestrial Affairs Commission in Denver started another global media blast. On May 13, Vatican astronomer Father Funes declared that it's OK to believe in extraterrestrial beings as 'our brothers and sisters' and that such beliefs are not in conflict with faith in God. On May 14, Britain released more than 1,000 documents on UFO sightings from the 1970s and 1980s. Also on May 14, a UFO crashed south of Las Vegas near Needles, CA that immediately attracted “men in black” and a secret military operation. The May 30 Denver press conference showing of Stan Romanek’s “Alien-in-the-window-video” became a smash Internet and news hit and even broke page view records at DenverPost.com. On July 23, former astronaut shocked the world with his interview on Kerrang Radio by proclaiming that the Roswell extraterrestrial UFO crash was real and so are government cover-ups of UFO phenomena. Further proof of this cover-up was the Oct. 20 release of more UFO files in Britain that included the story of US airman Milton Torres who was told to shoot down a UFO in 1957 near England.Finally, on November 5, President Elect Obama announced that John Podesta, an advocate of UFO disclosure, would co-manage the White House transition team. Podesta has stated publicly, "I think it's time to open the books on questions that have remained in the dark on the question of government investigations of UFOs. It's time to find out what the truth really is that's out there. We ought to do it really because it's right. We ought to do it because the American people, quite frankly, can handle the truth. And we ought to do it because it's the law." Other key White House Cabinet members are like-minded. Bill Richardson of New Mexico, home of the 1947 Roswell extraterrestrial vehicle crash, has stated that “The federal government has not come clean on all that issue [Roswell UFO] and should.” The Rockefeller Initiative briefed Senator Hillary Clinton on the UFO issue. Gov. Napolitano of Arizona surely knows that former Arizona Gov. Fife Symington has admitted to seeing the “Phoenix Lights” UFO. He said he thought it was “some sort of alien spacecraft”. Symington also believes the government has used dis-information tactics to try to discredit thousands of other witnesses. Confidence that the Obama administration will release the UFO files has also encouraged Jeff Peckman to temporarily suspend his ballot initiative campaign to create an Extraterrestrial Affairs Commission in Denver.

Call for Obama to open UFO files and the Krishnas UNH professor says it's possible the B-2 stealth bomber, connected to Pease through the 509th Bomb Wing, is a beneficiary of extraterrestrial reverse engineering. Photo 1 of 3 | Zoom Photo + UNH professor Ted Loder cites the B-2 stealth bomber as a possible beneficiary of extraterrestrial reverse engineering because there is evidence, he says, that the craft is “anti-gravity assisted,” using anti-gravity propulsion some believe was derived from recovered UFOs coupled with human scientific research.Courtesy photo CAN YOU HANDLE THE TRUTH? Last November, Paradigm Research Group of Bethesda, Md., launched "The Million Fax on Washington" campaign, urging Americans to fax, e-mail or send letters to the Washington Transition Headquarters of President-elect Barack Obama, calling on him to end the Truth Embargo regarding extraterrestrial/UFO presence and to release any information to the American people that would not jeopardize national security. According to the research group, 126 million Americans age 18 and older believe UFOs are real and 180 million believe the government is hiding the truth. Related Stories Exeter's UFO window Exeter — the East Coast Roswell Dr. Ted Loder, University of New Hampshire professor emeritus, became interested in extraterrestrials in 1997 when then governor Jeanne Shaheen sent him at his own request, to a closed congressional briefing in Washington, D.C., on UFOs. As then Gov. Shaheen's representative, Dr. Loder listened to top-secret military witnesses as they described their observations and sightings to members of Congress and the U.S. Senate. Based on what he heard, Loder came to believe in the alleged government cover-up of extra-terrestrial technologies, technologies he feels the world desperately needs for safe, inexpensive and sustainable energy to solve global poverty. Loder is associated with the Disclosure Project, whose goal is for "free and open" congressional hearings concerning UFOs and for the release of allegedly suppressed technology, and with The Orion Project, whose objective is to develop sustainable energy technology to serve global humanitarian purposes. Loder cites the B-2 stealth bomber as a possible beneficiary of ET reverse engineering because there is evidence, he says, that the craft is "anti-gravity assisted," using anti-gravity propulsion some believe was derived from recovered UFOs coupled with human scientific research. The B-2 is flown by the elite 509th Bomb Wing, several aviation generations evolved from their 1947 Roswell fame. (The 509th Composite Group was formed in World War II to drop atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.) The 509th was stationed at Roswell, N.M., and their intelligence officers were first on the crash site at Corona, 75 miles from Roswell. They have been historically linked to the controversial event ever since. Over the years cries of cover-up have failed to die out, some believing an extraterrestrial craft was downed and ETs recovered from the wreckage. By 1965 the 509th Bomb Wing had moved to Pease AFB in Portsmouth as part of the Strategic Air Command during the Cold War, with a powerful nuclear weapon delivery capability. On Aug. 26 of that year the 509th participated in a SAC bombing competition. Eight days later, on Sept. 3, the lights went out at Pease two hours before the "Incident at Exeter." "The 509th BW is special," says nuclear physicist Stanley Friedman, speaking from his home in New Brunswick, Canada. "They were elite and hand-picked." Friedman was the first civilian to investigate the Roswell site, in 1978, more than 30 years after the alleged crash. He has met with and interviewed most of the primary players of the event. As to a possible connection between the 509th, Roswell, N.M., and Exeter, N.H. Friedman says, "There are no coincidences." "INCIDENT AT EXETER" COVER-UP? Over the decades, Pease has denied that anything out of the ordinary occurred at the airbase on that Sept. 3. But former Hampton Police Chief Robert Mark, a sergeant with the 509th Security Police Squadron at Pease in 1965, told a different story. As related in the New Hampshire Seacoast Sunday in 1990, "... Mark was on duty at the main gate when, at about midnight, he and other officers saw a huge, brightly lit object approaching the base at an altitude of 300 to 400 feet. As the object passed , silently, over the base, Mark recalls, lights began going out. "Seconds later, Mark raced to the base radar tower, where he listened in as two jet fighters took off to give chase, but were quickly outdistanced by the fast-moving object." In his book "The Day After Roswell," retired Col. Philip J. Corso claims he inherited the Roswell file at the Pentagon and farmed out ET technologies for development. But such is poppycock and folderol to retired Col. George Rubin of Stratham. The former N.H. state representative and crusty combat-seasoned battalion commander spent time at the Pentagon. Rubin says he is sure that if there was ET activity, he would have been informed and adds that media-driven UFO stories have taken on a life of their own. Stanton Friedman, though, purports that there was an immediate cover-up of the Roswell crash by President Truman and a select group around him known as the "Majestic 12." TO DISCLOSE OR NOT TO DISCLOSE Some of those involved in Ufology and the field of alien abduction are against full government disclosure of alleged UFO and ET documents. Kathleen Marden of Stratham, co-author with Stanley Friedman of "Captured: The Betty and Barney Hill UFO Experience," recalls being in an auditorium when all present were asked to raise their hands if they did not believe in UFO disclosure. She says her own and Stanley Friedman's hands were conspicuously held up. Marden, in her role as a social worker, is for partial disclosure. Her training leaves her concerned about "social unrest, depending on what's released." Friedman fears that national security secrets could be compromised by those who mean to do harm in this age of terrorism. Others, like State Rep. Susan Kepner, D-Hampton, who was a supporter of New Mexico governor Bill Richardson's presidential bid, is for disclosure only after measured review in Washington, because she feels people "can be reactionary to information and act before they think it all out. She cited as an example the alleged weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and how the allegation "got people to go charging in after them." JIMMY CARTER-DISCLOSURE PRESIDENT-NOT Because of Jimmy Carter's own sighting of a UFO in 1969, he told reporters during his 1976 presidential campaign, that as president he would make any and all UFO information available to the public and scientists. Despite such a forthright promise, once elected he did not follow through with his pledge, citing "defense implications." Those demanding UFO disclosure may have finally found their man in Obama's transition chief, John Podesta. Podesta, Clinton's chief of staff from 1998 to 2001, is an advocate for government openness. At a national press club conference in 2002 he said the government should "open the books" on its UFO investigations. "I think it's time to open the books on questions that have remained in the dark on the question of government investigations of UFOs ... It's time to find out what the truth really is that's out there ... because the American people, quite frankly, can handle the truth and we ought to do it because it's the law," Podesta said. But in response to a question by the late Tim Russert of NBC News, Barack Obama said, he was more concerned about "improving the quality of people's lives here on earth, than space aliens." Obama's short list is already full. In a forward to "The Roswell Dig Diaries" Gov. Richardson wrote "It would help everyone if the U.S. government disclosed everything it knows. With full disclosure and our best scientific investigation, we should be able to find out what happened on that fateful day in July of 1947. The American people can handle the truth no matter how bizarre or mundane, and contrary to what you see in the movies." As a congressman, Richardson was denied access to the Roswell files by the Department of Defense. Richardson called on the federal government to "come clean on Roswell." For former Hampton police chief Robert Mark and those who sighted the UFO that warm September night in 1965 as it traveled from Portsmouth to Plaistow, the possibility of UFO disclosure under the Obama administration remains to be seen. For the time being they are left with Robert Mark's words that the military intentionally withholds information to avoid panic, "But if you see something like what I saw, you never forget it." Should the question of disclosure come before Congress, Professor Loder reminds readers that New Hampshire's junior senator Jeanne Shaheen was fully briefed by him on ETs and UFOs on his return from Washington, D.C.

Our existence in the mahat-tattva IS a lucid dream experienced by ones baddha-jiva DREAMING sub-consciousness SRILA PRABHUPADA - "This material creation is the spirit soul's dream, all existence in this world is the dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu" .4.29.83.

Guru Maharaja spoke about how he is, his present situation, how he has been taken care nicely in Bhaktivedanta hospital and how he recovered miraculously with the prayers of the devotees and the causeless mercy of Krsna. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> At 1.45pm when the session was about to finish he was informed that a group of 40 devotees from Ukraine are waiting in the Jagannatha Vallabha gardens to have a short darshan with him. They are Radhanatha Maharaja's disciples who had come for a spiritual trip to Mumbai, Pune yatra and also Mayapur. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> As they were in Mumbai they were brought to have a look of the Bhaktivedanta Hospital and were eager to have darshan of our Guru Maharaja. They have been instructed previously by Radhanatha Swami Maharaja to pray for the recovery of our Guru Maharaja from the stroke.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Ukraine devotees where performing bhajans while waiting in the gardens for Guru Maharaja. Guru Maharaja spoke about how he is, his present situation, how he has been taken care nicely in Bhaktivedanta hospital and how he recovered miraculously with the prayers of the devotees and the causeless mercy of Krsna. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> While Guru Maharaja spoke in English it was translated simultaneously in Russian. Later Guru Maharaja asked the devotees if they had any questions for him. <o:p></o:p> The devotees asked him as they are making a visit to Mayapur Dham sooner what should be their mood. Guru Maharaja described how Lord Nityananda took Srila Jiva Goswami on a spiritual tour to Navadvipa Dham and He was revealing the dham to Srila Jiva Goswami. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Also Guru Maharaja described partially about the 7 visions of the Dham that was revealed in a dream to Srinivas Acarya. In his first vision he saw the adbhuta mandir with the dome, Sri Sri Panca Tattva and the devotees. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In the second vision he saw many levels of walls surrounding the temple which were made of gold. Taking part at least once in Navadvipa Dham parikrama can give one the love of Godhead. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Although Guru Maharaja has been attending regularly the Navadvipa Dhama parikrama since 35 + years, every time when he takes part in the parikrama he gets newer and newer realizations of the dham.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The devotees asked if he had any special realization when he was unconscious during the stroke. Guru Maharaja replied yes but he couldn't reveal it as Srila Prabhupada had instructed not to disclose intimate things openly.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Guru Maharaja was appreciative of Bhaktivedanta Hospital project. He said that every month there are 25 new devotees being made in the hospital. He recollected two incidents which he heard from the devotees in the hospital. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> One person when he was trying to save a pigeon fell down and got his hand fractured. He was later admitted into the Bhaktivedanta hospital. He became a devotee after that. He saved the bird and he was gifted with Krsna consciousness! <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Another lady was very averse to ISKCON. Her father had lung cancer and was admitted in this hospital in ICU. As he was recovering he got exposed to Krsna consciousness and the devotees were lovingly taking care of his body, mind and soul.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Seeing this reciprocation and getting to hear Bhagavad Gita the lady changed her opinion about ISKCON and became a devotee. Bhaktivedanta Hospital Ki Jai!<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> (Described by Ekanath Gaura prabhu and written by Ratnavali dd)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Video links of kirtan and class:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Dear Devotees,<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Hare Krsna. Please accept my most humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. All glories to Srila Gurudeva.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Here is the URL for the videos when Guru Maharaja gave lecture to the hospital doctors. Tirthatma Nitai prabhu has kindly edited and posted it here. Special thanks to Ekanath Gaura prabhu to send the files to Tirthatma Nitai prabhu.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Kirtan:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> http://www.jayapatakaswami.com/guru_maharaj_kirtan_jan09.html<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Class:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> http://www.jayapatakaswami.com/guru_maharaj_darshan_jan09.html<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Your humble servant,<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p>

Monday, January 19 - Report from Ekanath Gaura Prabhu:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Revati Raman prabhu has come to Mumbai to visit Guru Maharaja for a couple of days. He had come from Delhi after attending the Indian RGB Meetings. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> This was the first RGB Meeting that Guru Maharaja had missed to take part, so Revati Raman prabhu was giving him a summary of the meetings.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> After this Guru Maharaja was taken to physiotheraphy department. At 1.45pm when the session was about to finish he was informed that a group of 40 devotees from Ukraine are waiting in the Jagannatha Vallabha gardens to have a short darshan with him. They are Radhanatha Maharaja's disciples who had come for a spiritual trip to Mumbai, Pune yatra and also Mayapur. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> As they were in Mumbai they were brought to have a look of the Bhaktivedanta Hospital and were eager to have darshan of our Guru Maharaja. They have been instructed previously by Radhanatha Swami Maharaja to pray for the recovery of our Guru Maharaja from the stroke.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Ukraine devotees where performing bhajans while waiting in the gardens for Guru Maharaja. Guru Maharaja spoke about how he is, his present situation, how he has been taken care nicely in Bhaktivedanta hospital and how he recovered miraculously with the prayers of the devotees and the causeless mercy of Krsna. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> While Guru Maharaja spoke in English it was translated simultaneously in Russian. Later Guru Maharaja asked the devotees if they had any questions for him. <o:p></o:p> The devotees asked him as they are making a visit to Mayapur Dham sooner what should be their mood. Guru Maharaja described how Lord Nityananda took Srila Jiva Goswami on a spiritual tour to Navadvipa Dham and He was revealing the dham to Srila Jiva Goswami. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Also Guru Maharaja described partially about the 7 visions of the Dham that was revealed in a dream to Srinivas Acarya. In his first vision he saw the adbhuta mandir with the dome, Sri Sri Panca Tattva and the devotees. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In the second vision he saw many levels of walls surrounding the temple which were made of gold. Taking part at least once in Navadvipa Dham parikrama can give one the love of Godhead. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Although Guru Maharaja has been attending regularly the Navadvipa Dhama parikrama since 35 + years, every time when he takes part in the parikrama he gets newer and newer realizations of the dham.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The devotees asked if he had any special realization when he was unconscious during the stroke. Guru Maharaja replied yes but he couldn't reveal it as Srila Prabhupada had instructed not to disclose intimate things openly.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Guru Maharaja was appreciative of Bhaktivedanta Hospital project. He said that every month there are 25 new devotees being made in the hospital. He recollected two incidents which he heard from the devotees in the hospital. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> One person when he was trying to save a pigeon fell down and got his hand fractured. He was later admitted into the Bhaktivedanta hospital. He became a devotee after that. He saved the bird and he was gifted with Krsna consciousness! <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Another lady was very averse to ISKCON. Her father had lung cancer and was admitted in this hospital in ICU. As he was recovering he got exposed to Krsna consciousness and the devotees were lovingly taking care of his body, mind and soul.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Seeing this reciprocation and getting to hear Bhagavad Gita the lady changed her opinion about ISKCON and became a devotee. Bhaktivedanta Hospital Ki Jai!<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> (Described by Ekanath Gaura prabhu and written by Ratnavali dd)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Video links of kirtan and class:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Dear Devotees,<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Hare Krsna. Please accept my most humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. All glories to Srila Gurudeva.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Here is the URL for the videos when Guru Maharaja gave lecture to the hospital doctors. Tirthatma Nitai prabhu has kindly edited and posted it here. Special thanks to Ekanath Gaura prabhu to send the files to Tirthatma Nitai prabhu.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Kirtan:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> http://www.jayapatakaswami.com/guru_maharaj_kirtan_jan09.html<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Class:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> http://www.jayapatakaswami.com/guru_maharaj_darshan_jan09.html<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Your humble servant,<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p>

Monday, January 19 - Report from Ekanath Gaura Prabhu:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /> Revati Raman prabhu has come to Mumbai to visit Guru Maharaja for a couple of days. He had come from Delhi after attending the Indian RGB Meetings. This was the first RGB Meeting that Guru Maharaja had missed to take part, so Revati Raman prabhu was giving him a summary of the meetings. After this Guru Maharaja was taken to physiotheraphy department. At 1.45pm when the session was about to finish he was informed that a group of 40 devotees from Ukraine are waiting in the Jagannatha Vallabha gardens to have a short darshan with him. They are Radhanatha Maharaja's disciples who had come for a spiritual trip to Mumbai, Pune yatra and also Mayapur. As they were in Mumbai they were brought to have a look of the Bhaktivedanta Hospital and were eager to have darshan of our Guru Maharaja. They have been instructed previously by Radhanatha Swami Maharaja to pray for the recovery of our Guru Maharaja from the stroke. Ukraine devotees where performing bhajans while waiting in the gardens for Guru Maharaja. Guru Maharaja spoke about how he is, his present situation, how he has been taken care nicely in Bhaktivedanta hospital and how he recovered miraculously with the prayers of the devotees and the causeless mercy of Krsna. While Guru Maharaja spoke in English it was translated simultaneously in Russian. Later Guru Maharaja asked the devotees if they had any questions for him. The devotees asked him as they are making a visit to Mayapur Dham sooner what should be their mood. Guru Maharaja described how Lord Nityananda took Srila Jiva Goswami on a spiritual tour to Navadvipa Dham and He was revealing the dham to Srila Jiva Goswami. Also Guru Maharaja described partially about the 7 visions of the Dham that was revealed in a dream to Srinivas Acarya. In his first vision he saw the adbhuta mandir with the dome, Sri Sri Panca Tattva and the devotees. In the second vision he saw many levels of walls surrounding the temple which were made of gold. Taking part at least once in Navadvipa Dham parikrama can give one the love of Godhead. Although Guru Maharaja has been attending regularly the Navadvipa Dhama parikrama since 35 + years, every time when he takes part in the parikrama he gets newer and newer realizations of the dham. The devotees asked if he had any special realization when he was unconscious during the stroke. Guru Maharaja replied yes but he couldn't reveal it as Srila Prabhupada had instructed not to disclose intimate things openly. Guru Maharaja was appreciative of Bhaktivedanta Hospital project. He said that every month there are 25 new devotees being made in the hospital. He recollected two incidents which he heard from the devotees in the hospital. One person when he was trying to save a pigeon fell down and got his hand fractured. He was later admitted into the Bhaktivedanta hospital. He became a devotee after that. He saved the bird and he was gifted with Krsna consciousness! Another lady was very averse to ISKCON. Her father had lung cancer and was admitted in this hospital in ICU. As he was recovering he got exposed to Krsna consciousness and the devotees were lovingly taking care of his body, mind and soul. Seeing this reciprocation and getting to hear Bhagavad Gita the lady changed her opinion about ISKCON and became a devotee. Bhaktivedanta Hospital Ki Jai! (Described by Ekanath Gaura prabhu and written by Ratnavali dd) Video links of kirtan and class: Dear Devotees, Hare Krsna. Please accept my most humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. All glories to Srila Gurudeva. Here is the URL for the videos when Guru Maharaja gave lecture to the hospital doctors. Tirthatma Nitai prabhu has kindly edited and posted it here. Special thanks to Ekanath Gaura prabhu to send the files to Tirthatma Nitai prabhu. Kirtan: http://www.jayapatakaswami.com/guru_maharaj_kirtan_jan09.html Class: http://www.jayapatakaswami.com/guru_maharaj_darshan_jan09.html Your humble servant

Srila Prabhupada - “You are eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA).’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p>

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, (NITYA-BADDHA) but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) you are not eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). You are eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA).’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p>

Srila Prabhupada - “The living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore, two classes are designated: eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) and eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). Letter Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p>Srila Prabhupada "Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti 'sadhya' kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, ". Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4- Mayapur, February 18, 1977<o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - "Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna". Letter to Australian devotees 1972 under Madhudvisa Swami<o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - ‘Actually, you are not conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967) <o:p></o:p> </o:p>

There are 2 types of stroke. <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0> Latest photo 30 dec 2008</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Friday, January 16 - Report From Mahabahu Govinda Prabhu: <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> Before I write my report I'll make a brief summary of the BVA (Brain Vascular Accident) (Stroke):<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> There are 2 types of stroke.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> 1. Isquemic: Blood clot that obstructs a brain artery causing the deactivation of several neuronal areas.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> 2. Haemorrhaghic: It's the "breakage" of an artery causing blood shedding in the regions in which it doesn't correspond.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> From these two types, the one that generates a high mortality before the first 30 days is the haemorrhagic.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The places of injury can vary; but the most dangerous is the one at the brain trunk, being this the place where the cranial pairs arrive, and it is also the center of various important functions; amongst them, the deglution (swallowing) and respiration.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> A fonoaudiologic evaluation was executed; in respect of his musculature, it was found the following:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Left Hemiface: A decrease in its tonicity; lip got down; left eye with short mobility.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Right Hemiface: Muscular insufficiency on cheeks, slight movement on his left eye. Incapability to enact facial expression movements, such as: smile and expressions of sadness. This is produced by the limitation in orbicular muscles, risorio muscle, amongst others having alterations.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> This makes the face to appear stiff and having a little facial expression. In addition, the speech sounds not very clear at times (dysarthric), product of the muscular alterations.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> It has been decided to begin the treatment with three sessions a day, half an hour each.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Presently, 10 sessions has been already performed. There are improvements in his facial symmetry, eyes closing, right eyebrow movements, right cheek functionality and slight improvement in lip seal.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The sessions will continue in this frequency. Advancement has been noticed, but it's necessary to continue. Positives factors are that he is young and that the BVA type is starting to respond to the stimulation.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Guru Maharaja is now in a rehabilitation stage; from now on only achievements should come.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Therefore, patiently one has to wait for the improvements step by step. It's understood that all the improvements are the result of a team work of devotees, doctors, diversity of therapies and prayers.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Everybody united towards the same cause to which everyone had contributed.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Please Keep praying.

There are 2 types of stroke. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" />Friday, January 16 - Report From Mahabahu Govinda Prabhu: Before I write my report I'll make a brief summary of the BVA (Brain Vascular Accident) (Stroke): There are 2 types of stroke. 1. Isquemic: Blood clot that obstructs a brain artery causing the deactivation of several neuronal areas. 2. Haemorrhaghic: It's the "breakage" of an artery causing blood shedding in the regions in which it doesn't correspond. From these two types, the one that generates a high mortality before the first 30 days is the haemorrhagic. The places of injury can vary; but the most dangerous is the one at the brain trunk, being this the place where the cranial pairs arrive, and it is also the center of various important functions; amongst them, the deglution (swallowing) and respiration. A fonoaudiologic evaluation was executed; in respect of his musculature, it was found the following: Left Hemiface: A decrease in its tonicity; lip got down; left eye with short mobility. Right Hemiface: Muscular insufficiency on cheeks, slight movement on his left eye. Incapability to enact facial expression movements, such as: smile and expressions of sadness. This is produced by the limitation in orbicular muscles, risorio muscle, amongst others having alterations. This makes the face to appear stiff and having a little facial expression. In addition, the speech sounds not very clear at times (dysarthric), product of the muscular alterations. It has been decided to begin the treatment with three sessions a day, half an hour each. Presently, 10 sessions has been already performed. There are improvements in his facial symmetry, eyes closing, right eyebrow movements, right cheek functionality and slight improvement in lip seal. The sessions will continue in this frequency. Advancement has been noticed, but it's necessary to continue. Positives factors are that he is young and that the BVA type is starting to respond to the stimulation. Guru Maharaja is now in a rehabilitation stage; from now on only achievements should come. Therefore, patiently one has to wait for the improvements step by step. It's understood that all the improvements are the result of a team work of devotees, doctors, diversity of therapies and prayers. Everybody united towards the same cause to which everyone had contributed. Please Keep praying.

Those who choose to misuse their freewill fall to the material world and they are therefore imperfect because they gave up their perfect position as nitya-siddha by choosing to forget that ‘eternal body and by their dent of imagination, enter the material creation. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Bhaktivinoda Thakura describes in Jaiva Dharma in Nitya Dharma, part 5 – <o:p></o:p> “The imprisonment of the jiva began when the jiva forgot his position as the eternal servant of Sri Krsna. This forgetfulness is the original offence of the jiva and is the root of all the jiva’s subsequent offences.”<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In Srimad Bhagavatam, purport of 3.26.7 Srila Prabhupada states - <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “Whatever the material energy dictates, the conditioned soul does. He has no responsibility. He is simply the witness of the actions, he is forced to act that way due to his offence in his eternal relationship with Krsna.” <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> And what is that original offence? <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The answer is giving up the Lord’s service. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In Srimad Bhagavatam, 5.14.1, Prabhupada states in the purport - <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “When the pure soul wants to give up the Lord’s service to enjoy the material world, Krsna certainly gives him a chance to enter the material world.”<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In Tokyo on April 20, 1972 Prabhupada stated – <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “He has fallen means he has given up the service of Krsna.” <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Giving up the service to Sri Krsna is due to freewill which leads to more forgetfulness due to the choices one makes due to that free will. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> There are other aspects of freewill, but giving up service means giving up our love to Krsna, or we want to serve in another way that is not compatible in the spiritual world. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Krsna does not force you to love Him. You have to desire it willingly and that is the topmost use of freewill, this is what freewill means, to voluntarily serve Krsna. The living entity is given that ‘choice’ because without it, there is no meaning to individuality or being a marginal living being. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The other angle is that by misusing our freewill we make the wrong decision and Maya immediately covers us AFTER the living entity chooses to manufacture their existence without Krishna. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Freewill is perfect and imperfect and yes it is an inconceivable truth (Acintya Tattva) It is perfect in the aspect of allowing one to freely choose to endlessly increasingly serve and it is imperfect and not suitable for Goloka when we choose to ignore Krsna. This is one reason why the Lord creates the Mahat-tattva (material creation)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The perfect aspect of this imperfection of the jiva is that you can go back to serve Krsna again. Srimad Bhagavatam 6.11.25 confirms this - <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> “Oh my Lord, O Supreme Personality of Godhead, will I again be able to be a servant of Your eternal servants who find shelter at Your lotus feet? Oh Lord of my life, may I again become their servant so that my mind may always engage in the loving service of Your Lordship.” <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Twice Srila Prabhupada uses the word bhuyah (again), stressing the point. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> When the jivas misuse freewill in Goloka, Vaikuntha it is not like a case of newly transformed envious jivas hanging around. They are instantly covered and ousted from the Lord’s realm. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Bhaktisiddhanta Thakura’s purport to text 44 of Brahma Samhita states – <o:p></o:p> “When he forgets his service of Krsna he is at once deflected by the attracting power of Maya in this world.” <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> On a morning walk in Vrndavana, 9-13-75 Prabhupada said: “He has given you little freedom’ you can use it. Yathecchasi tathaa kuru, Krsna says in Gita (18.63), ‘Whatever you like you do.” <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Some devotees seem to think that this discussion of the “Fall, no fall of the Jiva” started after Prabhupada’s disappearance but that is not a fact. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In the early 1972, Madhudvisa had to deal with the issue in Australia while travelling around preaching on a Double Decker travelling Temple that I was also personally on and the Crow and Tal Fruit Logic letter is a result of that exchange with devotees who thought we came from the Brahmajyoti. The letter has typed parts, Prabhupada also added his own handwritten notes, and he signed the letter by hand. Madhudvisa has the letter. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In the early 1970’s, Siddhasvarupananda Swamiwas preaching that the jivas came from the Brahmajyoti and Srila Prabhupada told him not to preach that in his temples. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In a letter to Caturbhuja Dasa, L.A., 5-9-73, Prabhupada wrote him - <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “Your last question ‘How is the soul degraded (by lust, anger and greed) when it is transcendental to the body? <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “Doesn’t that imply that the soul has changed? ‘No. The soul never changes, but due to his tinyness, he may become forgetful of his relationship with Krsna”. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “The spiritual quality of the spiritual spark has not changed but he has forgotten his spiritual nature, bewildered by the imperfect desire to become equal or greater than Krsna.” <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Most of the verses from Brahma Vaivarta Purana are showing how a jiva can go to Vaikuntha or Goloka but unless one’s devotion is FULLY developed he will fall back to this material world due to lack of chit (knowledge) strength. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Nevertheless, eventually he/she will return and stay permanently in Vaikuntha/Goloka, regaining his/hers authentic svarupa bodily identity that is actually permanently there in Goloka even if one forgets this fact. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Such comments seem inconceivable, but are they? Actually they are easily understood when one ‘realizes, by dent of bhakti, what the eternal present actually means’. In other words, our perpetual body is permanently locked, protected, and secured in the eternal present because there is no portal of past or future for it to ever leave. Therefore if there id fall down, it is only consciously via ones thoughts, imaginings and dreams, never as ones original body.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Now that wasn’t too difficult to understand was it? <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Those verses in shastra that state that one does not fall from Vaikuntha are referring either to jivas who fell originally and are now reinstated, and generally won’t fall again or to those jivas who never fell to begin with. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Bhaktisiddhanta Thakur clarifies the point in Sri Caitanya’s Teachings, p. 101 <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> “The position of the jiva IS a part of the tatastha-sakti that can enjoy, cease to enjoy, and go back to his original position”. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> And Srila Prabhupada says in a similar vein on a morning walk: <o:p></o:p> Paramahamsa - So we can come to the spiritual world and return? <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Prabhupada - Yes.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Paramahamsa - Falldown?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Prabhupada - Yes…. He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that. (Cheviot Hills Golf Course-5-13-73, L.A.) <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada stressed the verse: Mahaajano yena gatah sa panthaa - one must follow in the footsteps of the Mahajanas <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Mahabhaarata, Vana Parva, 313.117. And who is speaking these verses from Brahma Vaivarta Purana? <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> They happen to be Mahajanas. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Narayana Rsi is talking to Narada Rsi about what Yamaraj spoke to Savitri (Mother of the vedas). Brahma also joins in later. So, their statements carry weight. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> So, for our Brahma-Vadi friends (no fall avedis) what will they do now? Maybe demonise these verses as Apa siddhantic or of the Kuyogi Sampradaya? <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Or belittle the slokas as simply words to encourage the pious to do Punyas? <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Or try to emphasize that these verses are fanciful imagination? Then better yet they may try to minimize these verses as secondary evidence or not authentic or as interpolations? Any way you want to cut it, there is disagreement on this point and the Patanam Slokas, will stand their ground, and support Srila Prabhupada that jivas can fall (patanam) from Vaikuntha/Goloka. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> So how can apparently contradictory statements be reconciled? Jiva Goswami explains in his Krsna Sandarbha 152.9 that Vedanta Sutra states – <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> “If there are two contradictory statements in scripture, the first statement should be interpreted so that it does not contradict the later statement.” <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> So the way to employ this understanding of Jiva Goswami means that for us, the Fallvadis (as the Brahmavadis call us) we accept both ideas i.e. coming from Brahman and coming from Vaikuntha/Goloka. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The jivas coming from Brahman are those jivas who did not get liberated in Brahma’s lifetime and entered the body of Maha-Vishnu. So, when they reappear when Maha-Vishnu begins to expand universes again that occurrence is an origin because it is over a time period of trillions and trillions of years, which is like eternity. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> That origin is what the Upanishads describe. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> We accept the understanding that the jivas that have left their service in Vaikuntha/Goloka, due to free will, come here to the material world. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In all of this discussion one important point to understand is that to Krsna, in Krsna’s transcendental time, or reckoning, we are here in this material world for one or two seconds (NOT EVEN THAT BECAUSE NOTHING IS SEEN AS MISSING WITHIN THE ‘ETERNAL PRESENT)’. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> How is this? <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Again, in Brahma Vaivarta Purana, Krsna Janma Khanda, chapter 25, verse 98-99 it is stated that <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> “ Brahma dies when Krsna winks”. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> So, if a jiva stays in a universe for the life of Lord Brahma, which is trillions of years, and then goes back to Goloka, then in Goloka, it is only an insignificant moment. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> So, in real Transcendental Time (The eternal present that has no past and future as we understand it in the material perishable world) we are here for a very, very short time. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p>

Ravindra Svarup Prabhu ‘When we “return” to the spiritual world, it will only be to discover that indeed we never left, and there has always been right here. We are right now with Krsna, for Krsna consciousness is our svarupa, our eternal identity and perpetual constitutional position. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> Ravindra Svarup Prabhu ‘We need only wake up and see where we are. All this is known to Srila Prabhupada and to the acaryas. They know how one can fall from a place no one falls from, enter into an ignorance that has always been, and return to a place one never actually left. <o:p></o:p> Ravindra Svarup Prabhu ‘Because such matters are inconceivable to mundane minds, when teachers speak of such things their words may seem contradictory. But in one way or another they all tell the whole truth’ Ravindra Svarup dasa web site <o:p></o:p> In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka. <o:p></o:p> By reading Prabhupada’s books, one will find this material world of family, friends and activity is ALL their desired dreams and their reactions that are ONLY EXPERIENCED by 'entering' unlimited dream identities or vessels within the dreams of Maha Vishnu – <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “This material creation is the spirit soul's dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu, as the Brahma-saḿhitā describes – <o:p></o:p> Srila Bhaktisiddhanta - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation”. 4.29.83.http://vedabase.net/sb/4/29/83/en <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b. <o:p></o:p> the effulgence of Krishna (His Brahman effulgence) is founded on Personalism. Srila Prabhupada explains the following of what Krishna’s effulgence, Brahmajyoti or lustre is - <o:p></o:p> “The word varnam refers to the lustre (effulgence) of one’s original identity. The original lustre of gold or silver is brilliant. Similarly, the original lustre of the living being, who is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], is the lustre of ānanda, or pleasure”. Tokyo in 1972 Srila Prabhupada. <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada “Within this effulgence there are innumerable spiritual planets, and they are known as the Vaikuntha planets. Each and every Vaikuntha planet is many, many times bigger than the biggest universe within the material world, and in each of them there are innumerable inhabitants who look exactly like Lord Visnu. These inhabitants are known as the Maha-paurusikas, or persons directly engaged in the service of the Lord. They are happy in those planets and are without any kind of misery, and they live perpetually in full youthfulness, enjoying life in full bliss and knowledge without fear of birth, death, old age or disease, and without the influence of kala, eternal time.” (Bhag. 1.14.36) <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “We can again revive our brightness and shine with the Supreme Person. As the sun and the sunshine, they are together shining, there is light, similarly, when we are again posted in our own constitutional position, Krsna is LIKE the sun and we are LIKE the shining particles, then our life is successful. ” Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.35 – Hawaii, January 28, 1974 <o:p></o:p> Svarupa Damodara - “The spirit soul must necessarily have a body, either spiritual or material”. <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Krsna. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies.” .Svarupa Damodara wedsite <o:p></o:p> “The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes.” Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11 <o:p></o:p> “The living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) and eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can’t be eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Letter the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – ‘This ordinary living being is of two kinds — nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world.’ SB 5.11.12 Purport <o:p></o:p> Then Srila Prabhupada explains. <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, (NITYA-BADDHA) but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968, <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada “This is confirmed in all Vedic literature. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. So, as we are also persons, individual living beings, we are persons, we have got our individuality, we are all individual, similarly the Supreme Truth, the Supreme Absolute, He is also, at the ultimate issue He is a person. But realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all the transcendental features like sat, cit, and ananda, in complete vigraha Gitopanisad by Srila Prabhupada Part Two <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977 <o:p></o:p> “The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48 <o:p></o:p> The Impersonalist understanding today is rampant and affecting many who wrongly believe that the jiva-soul becomes conscious after originally ‘falling out’ of the Brahmajyoti and then ‘somehow’ becomes endowed with free will, therefore their understanding of the Brahmajyoti is obviously impersonal and therefore dangerous. Such sects do not understand the correct PERSONAL teaching of the Vedas given to us by Jagat Guru His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. <o:p></o:p> The full expression and complete potential of ALL marginal living entities is their perpetual ’svarupa’ body that is eternally situated and established within Goloka or Vaikuntha. <o:p></o:p> Therefore it can then be said that the marginal living entities who have miss-used their free will and chose to enter the maha-tattva, are only temporarily trapped within the material creation, while their undying ‘svarupa’ body is currently laying dormant (hidden from their present awareness) within Goloka or Vaikuntha. <o:p></o:p> Of course this viewpoint is only from the marginal living entities perspective or standpoint wihin the material creation. Their conditional existence continues on until the marginal living entity again becomes responsive enough to perceive their true original Krishna Conscious bodily foundation within Goloka or Vaikuntha.

Srila Prabhupada – “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973 Srila Prabhupada - ‘We are also expansions of Krishna’s form. These jivas, the living entities… Krishna is expanding in two ways, svamsa and vibhinnamsa. Svamsa means Vishnu. One extension, expansion, is just directly He Himself. And another expansion is separated from Him. That separated from Him (marginal) we are’. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture 1.3.1-3 — San Francisco, March 28, 1968 <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada -”The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully”(Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport) <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service”(Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban) <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973 <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”.In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971 <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all.lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1 <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 196 <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1 <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “We have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay) <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “When the dream is finished, we come to another dream: “Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance.” This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and nighttime dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he’s in the dreamland” Bombay, December 27, 1972 <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things”. Letter to Madhuvisa Swami <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - ‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967) <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport” Letter to Madhuvisa Swami <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only” <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead”. Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22 <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada clearly states “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972 <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what your relationship with Krishna is automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay) <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay) <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with Krishna is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay) <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) <o:p></o:p> This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go. It is there they are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky. <o:p></o:p> So many misunderstand our eternal constitution or eternal devotional ’svarupa’ foundations. Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return? <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada: Yes. <o:p></o:p> Paramahamsa: Fall down? <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles <o:p></o:p>