brajeshwara das

I disagree with your interpretation. I agree that a varna has some rights, in that varna according to vedic injunctions they are not bound to the same regulations, but as an initiated devotee, I don't agree the evidence is clear that different regs were laid out for devotees. A devotee is above the varnas and accepts the position in a varna as his service for the necessity of the mission. This is clearly stated. Srila Swami Maharaj said in the varnashrama college that persons living there have to follow rules by their varna, but it is not clear at all to me he is talking about initiated disciples in the varnashrama college. I have the impression from my reading that the devotees would be the teachers (outside the varnas) and these colleges would be open to the public at large to prepare the greater society in the mode of goodness for spiritual life. Preliminary Help and that the ashramas come later, when they are ready to make a commitment and follow vows, like the bhakta programs in ISKCON now but on a much larger scale, maybe more general. So meat eating intoxication etc for uninitiated students would be allowed in some situations. But not for devotees. Though you may make a leap and say he meant that this was for the devotees, I believe there is not enough evidence to say that with certainty, and this definitely requires certainty. What is the harm in being careful here? Maybe an in-depth look at what Srila Swami Maharaj's vision of the Varnashrama Colleges would be helpful.

We must do like that for the management of the temple. How is killing and eating meat involved in the management of the temple? Killing a snake in the garden, fine. Killing gophers eating the bhoga, fine. Wild boars fine, they are a danger to the devotees if on temple property. A thief, fine. Needing to know how to kill if necessary, fine. Learning to kill once is sufficient, that isn't needed on a continuous basis. But going out one day a month with your gun club buddys with a 30 30 to kill a deer I don't see as in any way being related to devotional life or service. For devotional life eating meat is not necessary at all. Because Srila Swami Maharaj is describing what a sudra does in one place doesn't mean he is describing the behavior of a devotee in another. You take Srila Swami Maharaja's words and run with them, you mingle messages and make them seem to mean something that I'm convinced doesn't really exist. You are taking a dangerous road for no good reason. You can preach the DVD thing fine, I'm with you there Prabhu no problem, go ahead and break ISKCON down into varnas and take on service as necessary. But you are saying abandon the regulative principals for some initiated disciples and I don't buy it.

You're missing the point entirely, you aren't really a ksatriya.

Sure, I don't know how many devotees really want to go shoot a deer. Nearly all want to go have sex though. Personally I was a vegetarian for 10 years before I met the devotees, so meat eating was not an attachment of mine. I guess for some killing and eating meat are just as hard to give up as sex.

Ah, but in marriage sex is to make devotees, not to condone sense enjoyment, it may be misused by some like myself as a release valve but it is illicit if we use it in that way. It is meant to be service, grhasta life is some high service as well. It isn't a license for mundane activities. And I can see no service in meat eating. I still disagree with you, I just saw your position misrepresented.

We want to willingly become slaves of the Absolute. So we have some minute free will, but we choose to use that freedom in service. Devotees don't seek liberation but dedication, so the idea of freedom is more freedom from our self-centered and self-serving desires in favor of surrendering ourselves to the desires of the Lord. If the Lord wants us to feel longing and distress because He isn't with us, even peace and contentment may not be ours. It depends on His sweet will. Our own sense of right and wrong is relative and only has real value as it relate to the center. An evil person may not know thay are evil, and think it 'right' to exploit someone else and 'wrong' to serve God. We are eternally free to choose who we serve, but we have to serve someone. Our very nature is that of servants. Being God-conscious means we choose to serve God. At least that is my understanding.

But the householders that aren't following know they aren't following, that it is illicit (at least they should know). And Caturbahu Prabhu isn't acdvocating doing anything illicit, he is saying it would be within the regs, just different for different varnas. So it is from his perspective anyway.

Definitely, but my contention is initiation. Do whatever you need to to attract people to hear about Krishna per Vaikuntha-vritti, but then when someone wants to be a disciple that means discipline. Once initiated, you follow the rules and regulations. I don't believe it is clear what Srila Swami Maharaj's intentions were. If I were feeling like a ksatriya but was initiated, I would say to myself "I am temporarily feeling connection to this varna, but I know my eternal identity is not associated with this. I am not sure what the intentions of Guru are here, I should take the safe route and follow the four regulations". But that is just me. I do think it is dangerous to give instructions that it is OK when it was never specifically laid out that initiated disciples don't need to follow the regs when taking the roles in different varnas. But to each his own I guess.

That's what I thought. It is just strange for them to call it a 'church'. I guess that's for the tax breaks.

What the heck is it? Beyond the personality tests that we've all seen what is the philosophy?

Not that I can say anything about Srimati Radharani, but as for 'living entity' maybe a better term is 'conscious entity'. Everything starts in consciousness, we hear that in Goloka even the stones are conscious. I would think 'living entity' is only reserved for this world.

No doubt. I chant my rounds specifically because my Guru asked me too, so I see it as service, but the Holy Name is beyond me. My understanding is we need to become a good receiver and turn on our radar I guess, but there is so much interference with the mundane things I need to address in this life. It seems there are fleeting moments where I can purge these from my mind, otherwise I try and think of Krishna's flute, or His feet, I try and think of service that I can do or ways to make the devotees happy. But being empty to let the Holy Name fill me is very hard. Always some thoughts are coming. I have to just 'let them go' in the ways I first learned of meditation from some old Alan Watts book long ago. Don't fight them, just recognize them as what they are and let them go. Fighting them is like the old tar baby analogy (sorry if it sounds racist, but it makes sense). The more I try and tangle with the thoughts, the more entwined in them I become. So just 'letting them go' seems to work ok. If only for a moment. Quality over quantity though. Maybe I can chant 16 rounds of 108 Names, but if even some of those can be quality then I figure it is ok. As long as I try and avoid the 10 offenses to the Holy Name also I should be ok. Anyway, a very dear Vaisnava once told me 'We don't chant the Name, it chants us' so I just need to be a proper receiver. In case anyone never read this, here is a beautiful darshan by Srila Sridhar Maharaj on the Holy Name

Specifically, how do you stop the mind from running off to other things besides Krishna? How do you deal with this?

Thanks, and best wishes to you too Prabhu. Hare Krishna

It has not been defeated. It has been ignored. Tell me, what if it were true that Srila Swami Maharaj was referring to you acting as a ksatriya but never intended you to eat meat, would you stop? To me there is way too little evidence to make the jump that it is OK to do so. You guys are method actors who went off the deep end and think you are the roles you have been assigned. You forget you were initiated to be devotees independent of the varnas. That you would choose that identity as your primary role is your choice. That great, enjoy your movie. You guys also say people were tricked and I just don't buy it. That some maybe didn't read the contract is their fault as much if not more than anyone elses'. Anyhow, you guys make a very big jump to say that he wanted different initiations, he never said this. Bhakta Devarsi said 'in essense' but this is speculation. The safe position would be to say as I have said, that you implement your DVD system but initiates follow the regs as introduced and never changed by Srila Swami Maharaj. More care should be used so the vows are fully understood and people know what they are signing up for. You guys trust your own speculative conclusions way too much. Anyone elses interpretations of the same conversations are ridiculed. It is a pattern of behavior you guys engage in all too often. Whatever, enjoy your false egos. I can expect some "we are advanced and when you get to the stage we are at you will understand' self-boasting nonsense to come, it follows any time anyone tried to make any sort of peace with you two. My position is that I don't know. But I looked for evidence for changing the regs for initiated Hari Nama disciples and I don't see it. So I still don't know. It may be the case, it may not. But it is a leap of faith in your own minds and not in Guru's directions to say that it is so. I'm going with the parampara in that Srila Sridhar Maharaj, Srila Govinda Maharaj, Srila Bhatisiddhanta Saraswati Prabhupada and all the other exhalted Vaisnavas have not come to this conclusion of yours, so I just don't buy it.

You guys have your interpretation and I have mine. You can say I'm wrong, that's your right, but again I can see you two as being misguided myself. The Lord knows the truth, that's good enough for me.

That is in line with Srila Swami Maharaj wanting the varnashrama colleges set up. In my opinion, once they have faith, then they take initiation. That should be the way it is handled right now, but surely the faithless get initiated anyway. My experience has been that I see people all too eager to get someone initiated when they should just be encouraging them to develop their faith. Like some sort of sport to win souls or something. 'Our team got another point!' I think this is what Srila Swami Maharaj was saying when he was referring to the people recommending bhaktas for initiation. I know devotees are also eager to share the mercy, so please forgive my words here, it's not like the intention is necessarily wrong. Just the outcome if the devotee isn't ready to follow the regulations.

This song was one of my favorites as a young teenager. (who is singing it in the version in the video?) It is applied here but can as easily be addressing the whole material existence. It also is only addressing the conditioning of the Islamic kids, but the materialistic conditioning in the USA etc is really just as bad. At the end it says 'One God and One Home' but this isn't really our home and we can definitely try and limit the suffering but we can't stop it here. Real relief work means bringing God consciousness to the children, I don't care if they call Him Allah or not. But instead of fighting for pieces of land like in the Mid East or for big screen TVs here in the US, we should be fighting the internal jihad to receive the mercy of the Lord and go back home.

Good luck with that.

Sorry, just thinking about this more: Srila Govinda Maharaj in his darshans does refer to Srila Saraswati Prabhupada as 'Srila Prabhupada' and Srila Swami Maharaj as 'Srila Swami Maharaj' also is the case for Srila Sridhar Maharaj. In our ashrams also this is the case for most disciples not coming from ISKCON. We never knew Srila Swami Maharaj as 'Prabhupada'. To me this is an intimate name coming from his disciples, so I don't really feel it is mine to say. Srila Swami Maharaj is his 'official' title really, and 'Prabhupada' is the affectionate disiple name. Anyway, hopefully I show him respect and no offense is taken by anyone. This actually confused me a bit trying to know who anyone was talking about at any given time and I made sure I made the distinction, and try and refer to them both by thier official names. Srila Sridhar Maharaj is affectionately know as 'Guru Maharaj' in SCSMath, but other gurus are also know thus by their disciples, so publicly I don't refer to him in that way. It is like that.

It says brahmana not Vaisnava. Actually the vaisnava is not a brahmana but playing that role. I'm sure the DVD police will be here soon to put the house in order Basically someone that is a true brahmana (or acting in that capacity) should be engaged in the proper business, not working in a factory or something. In Bhagavad Gita it says it is better to do your own duty: śreyān sva-dharmo viguṇaḥ para-dharmāt sv-anuṣṭhitāt sva-dharme nidhanaṁ śreyaḥ para-dharmo bhayāvahaḥ Audio SYNONYMS śreyān—far better; sva-dharmaḥ—one's prescribed duties; viguṇaḥ—even faulty; para-dharmāt—than duties mentioned for others; su-anuṣṭhitāt—perfectly done; sva-dharme—in one's prescribed duties; nidhanam—destruction; śreyaḥ—better; para-dharmaḥ—duties prescribed for others; bhaya-āvahaḥ—dangerous. TRANSLATION It is far better to discharge one's prescribed duties, even though faultily, than another's duties perfectly. Destruction in the course of performing one's own duty is better than engaging in another's duties, for to follow another's path is dangerous. PURPORT One should therefore discharge his prescribed duties in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness rather than those prescribed for others. Materially, prescribed duties are duties enjoined according to one's psychophysical condition, under the spell of the modes of material nature. Spiritual duties are as ordered by the spiritual master for the transcendental service of Kṛṣṇa. But whether material or spiritual, one should stick to his prescribed duties even up to death, rather than imitate another's prescribed duties. Duties on the spiritual platform and duties on the material platform may be different, but the principle of following the authorized direction is always good for the performer. When one is under the spell of the modes of material nature, one should follow the prescribed rules for his particular situation and should not imitate others. For example, a brāhmaṇa, who is in the mode of goodness, is nonviolent, whereas a kṣatriya, who is in the mode of passion, is allowed to be violent. As such, for a kṣatriya it is better to be vanquished following the rules of violence than to imitate a brāhmaṇa who follows the principles of nonviolence. Everyone has to cleanse his heart by a gradual process, not abruptly. However, when one transcends the modes of material nature and is fully situated in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he can perform anything and everything under the direction of a bona fide spiritual master. In that complete stage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the kṣatriya may act as a brāhmaṇa, or a brāhmaṇa may act as a kṣatriya. In the transcendental stage, the distinctions of the material world do not apply. For example, Viśvāmitra was originally a kṣatriya, but later on he acted as a brāhmaṇa, whereas Paraśurāma was a brāhmaṇa but later on he acted as a kṣatriya. Being transcendentally situated, they could do so; but as long as one is on the material platform, he must perform his duties according to the modes of material nature. At the same time, he must have a full sense of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. [As-They-Surrender-Unto-Me ]

I dunno, habit I guess. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada and Srila Prabhupada!

Yes, very good. But no where is it mentioned different vows for different devotees. 'Acting' is the word Srila Swami Maharaj uses, not that you 'are' a ksatriya. This is a matter of interpretation and I believe you are mistaken, you believe I am. There is no way to resolve this since there isn't clear evidence one way or the other. You guys can say it is clear, but I disagree. We should agree to disagree on this point, because in all other things I support you. It is very apparent Srila Swami Maharaj wanted the varnashrama college to propagate this within his mission. My question now is: is ISKCON still his mission, or is it like a stolen car, still registered to the legitimate owner but no longer in his possession? I don't pretend to know the answer. Here's what I sincerely recommend: Start your own mission. In the disciplic succession of Srila Prabhupada. Initiate devotees based on your understanding of his instructions. Find a devotee 'actor' brahman who agrees with you that you feel is qualified to be Acharya. Be your own acharya if need be. A small house in the country maybe, bring your families. Assign your varnas. Do your preaching. Practice what you preach. If Srila Swami Maharaj is pleased you will flourish, and you can escape whatever exists within ISKCON that are contrary to your goals. Srila Sridhar Maharaj started with a thatched hut on the Ganga, Srila Swami Maharaj came here nearly penniless. Trust in Krishna, there is no need to do this from within ISKCON. ISKCON affiliation may even be seen as a disqualification in your preaching ground. Have full faith. It puzzles me that not so many Swami Maharaj disciples have started their own missions. Sure, they may lack the qualifications of their Guru, they should never feel otherwise, but if with sincerity and humility of the position they are taking on service to their guru, they will get backing from the Legitimate Authority. And in time they will become more qualified, as long as they remember they are servants, not masters. I have to say this also, I do think that the concept of different vows for different varnas would be helpful, I just don't know if it really is bona fide. This is really important to know before you continue. I know you guys have made up your minds on this, but I'm not convinced. Since you have to convince others, I'm guessing this would be a good thing to focus on, make some clear presentation that supports you hypothesis.

I wasn't cheated.

I've been thinking this is the year of the boar in Chinese astrology, so I am thinking a lot about Varahadev. Doesn't mean anything really I think but there you go. If it makes me think of Krishna's past times then it's good.