brajeshwara das

Yes, just now coming. I'm guiding children(14,16,17) to do, and am on line at same time.

 

CB-r

No problem, totally understood, just responding to Bhakta Devarsi.

http://www.vedabase.net/tqk/5/en1

Here is a mention of women and sudras from Srila Swami Maharaja's purports in Srimad Bhagavatam, probably where I last read it. Just for reference:

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Teachings of Queen Kunti

Here are some of the specific symbolical marks on the spiritual body of the Personality of Godhead which distinguishes His body from the bodies of all others. They are all special features of the body of the Lord. The Lord may appear as one of us, but He is always distinct by His specific bodily features. Srimati Kunti claims herself unfit to see the Lord because of her being a woman. This is claimed because women, sudras (the laborer class), and the dvija-bandhus, or the wretched descendants of the higher three classes, are unfit by intelligence to understand transcendental subject matter concerning the spiritual name, fame, attributes, forms, etc., of the Supreme Absolute Truth. Such persons, although they are unfit to enter into the spiritual affairs of the Lord, can see Him as the arca-vigraha, who descends on the material world just to distribute favors to the fallen souls, including the above-mentioned women, sudras, and dvija-bandhus. Because such fallen souls cannot see anything beyond matter, the Lord condescends to enter into each and every one of the innumerable universes as the Garbhodakasayi Vishnu, who grows a lotus stem from the lotuslike depression in the center of His transcendental abdomen, and thus Brahma, the first living being in the universe, is born.

let us have sum well thought out reasonalble questions brought up for discussion.

 

!

Like I have been suggested for those truly interested in the material, and not just trying to set up Caturbahu dasa to look less knowledgable than he is, just read the books, and observe life unfold around you, and apply the conceptual knowledge from the books (jnana) to what you observe and then you will realize (vijnana) the truth about it.

 

But we were asked to ask questions.

I'm not trying to set anyone up It is a simple question. How do I explain it concisely to someone? What is a woman's role in varnashrama?

So here are some more just to get you started:

Are they in the four varnas, or outside them?

If outside, why?

What responsibilities do they have?

What is the difference from a man's roles?

I don't know how you guys actually think my question is bad. It is simple and honest and if that is a curveball for you then good luck.

I ask it this was because this is the way it will be asked by someone coming into contact with you 'in the field'. If you are working to establish the varnashram system, you better know the answer. It doesn't need to be too specific, but it has to be clear, concise and accurate.

More specific, to broad.

 

CB-r

If someone asked you what is Krsna Consciousness, would you say 'more specific, too broad'?

What is the role of women in the varnashram system? Can anyone else answer?

What is the role of women in the varnashram system?

I'm not sure if you are joking or frustrated, or? I would like to tread softly but am at a loss.

 

CB-r

Why are you at a loss? I'm at a loss that you are at a loss , it was pretty clear.

Basically: (paraphrasing) I'l let you get back to discussing the finer points of DVD, I made my point good or bad, please forgive any offense, I am insignificant.

ok, in Srimad Bhagavatam purports, Srila Swami Maharaj often says 'like a woman or sudhra'. Can you speak of the role of women in the varna system and where they fit in?

Thanks.

My nickname in Junior league football was motor mouth.

 

It seems like a big mouth because I am fortunate enough to engage my passion in following orders, and apparently seem to be very spontaneous and outspoken in doing so, while those claiming Vaisnava status and advanced knowledge and Supersoul connections beyond the need to follow instructions closely are simply so mentally and emotionally emaciated that it is hard for them to handle the fact that someone else is actually more spontaneously alive than they are, and at the same time merely an advanced neophyte at best with a decent lexicon and lots of passion.

 

But as CB pointed out, LOLLOLLOL Oh, if you saw us in person, I may be a motor mouth, but He has the MAHA MAW between us, deep and bellowing and depending on your inner intentions in life, it could be pretty f'ing scary.

 

Hare Krsna

And you are darned humble too:P

I'm the big mounth Ksatriya.

You are both big-mouthed Ksatriyas

but how else to get people to realize?

 

Prabhu, just please consider how you choose to express yourself, because though I am certainly offensive you definitely could use a drop of honey in your posts. Note Murali Mohan Prabhu's post above, you may not agree but he is right. 'Idiot' is a symptom of a problem, not the problem. Please take what I say seriously, as others can see what you can't.

How to get people to realize? Through humility, tolerance, and giving honor to others. Without seeking any honor for ourselves.

Sorry, I should try and follow my Gurudeva more closely:

We are what doing? Arrangement, making arrangement for Sankirtan. If there is no Sankirtan there is no result. And Sankirtan will be without offense. And first offense is satam ninda namnah param aparadham vitanute that meant sadhu ninda we not with... abuse anyone. Who is sadhu we do not know. Then we will be protected with that thought. I shall be good. You are good or bad, that is another thing. But first I shall be good, and with that knowledge if I shall proceed, I shall get benefit.

I fail to understand why you're asking the same question over & over.

Because I'm not taking the time to read everything enough, multitasking while at work, which is irresponsible and not respectful of the subject at hand. I sincerely appologize.

That is offensive to discussion and debate at such a very profound and basic level. It is a technique used by someone wishing to hide a basic insecurity of philosophical foundation that they stand on thinking there is some power there. That is not conducive to anything but further power mongering. So I that I thought I would speak up about that tendency I saw a person or two exhibiting to see if I could flush them out, knowing they would probably use it as a lever to further cast doubt on the substance of what I was saying.

Sorry Prabhu but I disagree, I think saying there are idiots among the participants of a conversation is not respectful to the conversation and all involved. Spin that how you like, but I stand by that.

Thank you sir. It gives me pause.

 

Who has quoted the second quote? And are you in agreement or have I misunderstood?

 

Hare Krsna, CB-R

That was you, Prabhu. And I am in agreement if I understand you correctly (in your words): that just be reading and hearing, then observing yourself introspectively and the symptoms of others, we will all know what to do.

The bottom line question for me is this: do you seek

1. an official system where someone received the designation 'brahman' etc from an official body
   
2. a system where a designation is self-selected after much reflection, and then recognized by an official body.
   
3. a system with no official recognition but some method of cultivating awareness of your varna.
   
4. Another option?

My main concern and reason for all my arguing is the potential for material exploitation of sincere devotees by insincere pseudo-devotees in higher varna positions. We all know this has happened much in the past and pseudo-DVD could enable abuse. I hope you understand.

Dear Brajeshwara dasa,

 

Why do you continually ignore my answer to this question that I have repeated about 3 times for you? Are you to good for me to even acknowledge the points I made, even if you disagree at least if you have some valid position then maybe I could learn something, but I all hear are the sounds of silence, and then you asking the same exact question over and over again.

 

ys

 

BD

Please accept my dandavats and appologies Prabhu. You are right and I was unfair.

And I specifically instructed to answer this type of inquiry from you previously, that The Gita and Bhagavatam are CHOCK full of general and direct instructions and details on DVD. So much so that just be reading and hearing, then observing yourself introspectively and the symptoms of others, we will all know what to do.

 

And that includes the person who after all that comes to the conclusion, "I like what I read but I am not sure who I am exactly or how to proceed."

 

That person would be the TYPE of Sudra who would need constant instruction and direction from higher varnas, and if truly sincere, humble, and thus submissive, will coincidently at that time find their good self amongst the company of devotees of higher varna who will see that sudra as someone who can help them make devotional advancement if they can engage them properly and will do so promptly.

I'll look for instruction from the sastra, thanks.

I must have missed where 'I' said 'idiot' first. Did I?

Sorry Prabhu, it was Bhakta Devarsi, please accept my appologies.

In YOUR mind it degrades the arguement, because you are using the posters character to defeat the order of Guru. That I'm not a preacher is AGAIN ADMITED.

 

Not to defeat Guru's order, but the poster's comprehension of the order, which all should do when hearing from others. "Does this prabhu understand correctly or not?" Otherwise we may be misguided.

I'm not looking for your flaws Prabhu. Just seeing if you have anything more to offer on this besides vague statements like "I keep saying the preaching to convince compliance." What is compliance? What did Srila Swami Maharaj say would be compliance? If you want a system in place where someone gets a 'nametag' so all will know their varna and then assigned duties accordingly, please describe how that would work and who would determine the varna. That's all. Otherwise what is the point in discussing this further? All agree it would be a good thing just again HOW?

And making blanket statements that some of the people in the discussion are idiots is offensive to me because we should try and see others as devotees. Not idiots. And it stifles the conversation and turns into false-ego bickering.

And my comment about pratishta applies to me most of all, lest I get carried away in thinking I am right and others are all wrong. My points are flawed and I'm just working out my understanding of DVD here in this forum, if I have fundamental misunderstandings I hope to adjust them. The pratistha comment wasn't directed at anyone specifically but if anyone feels it applies to them, as it applies to me personally, I hope it is taken into consideration in further posts.

Your response was no answer. Just more of the same vagueries. No specifics which is why many of us here have no idea what you two are trying to say beyond the obvious benefit of a DVD system which is not disputed.

 

Then you say Guru and Supersoul are diversionary. The diversion is clearly what you are engaged in. All that is needed is the holy name. You want to inspire your Isckon friends? That is only to be done by hearing and chanting under the protective wings of proper advance vaisnavas. Not on imagining yourself and a couple buddies to be disciples of Dronacarya come again to rescue the mission. Clearly you are a fool on a head trip and I am done talking to you.

 

The surfer boy crack was really weird since I have never been on a board in my life. I would have loved growing up surfing as a kid but alas, my karma was not that good. I have done some body surfering though @ Maakapu. Great fun and a great workout.

 

I have no doubt my false ego shows as this is the material world and all here are bound by ahankara. What's new? BTW what keeps you hanging around the material field if not your own false ego? Or do you remain out of your causeless mercy to re-establish DVD? Awesome task the Lord has given you.

 

"Do you have a real name? Or am I taking to air? "

 

You ask for a name. Do you think a name is the actual person or something. Things are not real until they have a material tag, right? Such is the thinking of those condtoned by the world of names. We need to grow beyond it. Talking to a temporary name is the same as talking to air. Are you asking if I really exist?

 

Bye bye big warrior or however you think of yourself.

I have to agree with you theist, I don't want to say it really but it should be said because this is a danger to us all. The desire for pratishta is very dangerous and we can see that cracks like 'surfer boy' and 'idiot' are meant to demean and put down, and therefore elevate the poster. But it does exactly the opposite, it degrades their arguments and lessens the respect for their position. It reveals their position actually.

Please forgive my offenses, all glories to the devotees everywhere.

he test is observance of action, if you go around picking your nose and eating it, then you are not a brahman.

 

Oh well, I'm not a brahman

I would say number 2, with a shake of NO. 3

 

CB-R

Would the official body have to accept, or could they reject the decision of the devotee?

You and Murali are team? that's wonderful. Just remember it is nature that takes you to hell...

Madhya 8.5.58: The brahmanas are the intellectuals who can understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. They are always engaged in the cultivation of knowledge. It does not matter whether one is born in India or outside India. Those who are naturally very heroic and who tend to rule over others are called ksatriyas. Those who tend to produce food by agricultural methods, protect cows and other animals and engage in trade are called vaisyas, or merchants. Those who are not sufficiently intelligent to be brahmanas, ksatriyas or vaisyas are required to serve a master and are called sudras.

The bottom line question for me is this: do you seek

1. an official system where someone received the designation 'brahman' etc from an official body
   
2. a system where a designation is self-selected after much reflection, and then recognized by an official body.
   
3. a system with no official recognition but some method of cultivating awareness of your varna.
   
4. Another option?

Please share with us the plan of approach to implement this system you said he laid out. If it is that clear please do so. That he wanted it to manifest there is no doubt, but the mechanism is what is in question. How to do it? Did he say how to do it? Not your ideas of what here said, but actually him saying 'do this, do that, this is the way.' Who decides who is who?

Someone wrote a book I have not read, I do know many can interpret things many ways and I won't have faith in that unless I read it, even then with the guidance of a Vaisnava I trust. So please share with us not selective quotes on the subject but actual facts that he said to 'do like this'. I myself am agreeing that it should manifest and it is the will of Guru, that would be great help to us all, but HOW? That I admit my opinions are opinions instead of trying to put my words in other's mouths, especially an Acharya, I don't see as reason for critique by you, who are taking opportunities to say people are idiots etc. without aswering questions directly. It is clear you have contempt for other's opinions that don't perfectly match your own. I wonder what Srila Prabhupada would say.

I am not preaching here, I am asking the questions 'who will decide, what was Guru's plan' and not getting real answers because you have none.