brajeshwara das

Let's just pretend for a moment that this discussion is not populated with a bunch of power mongering idiots, (which mostly it is not),

It is very hard to have a conversation with someone that may be calling you an idiot.

I think the fact no organized system has been imposed, from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada to present, should be a clue that this was not the way Guru intends it to be manifest. The 'natural' theory seems to be more inline and would justify why no other Gaudiya Math acharya has done so. Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada Himself could have laid out direct instructions how to do it but it seems no one has this available, so in its abscence it seems like speculation to say exactly what he intended.

Then others are consuted, ksatriya and brahman. Which 'you' might be. I do not know this.

 

Who appoints these 'others'? Who decides they are qualified?

If you notice in the above quote, the use of the words "naturally", and "tend". Those are indications that this is not an imposed system (as the current hereditary caste system is), but rather, comes about due to the natures of the persons in society.

I also feel it is to come naturally, that Murali Mohan Prabhu is correct and we should stop discussing how to make it happen and work on the sadhana bhakti as Anandi Prabhu is saying. Then it will come, and we will see ourselves and others accordingly. No one needs to lable the plumber a plumber, it will be common knowledge.

Who decides?

There is still no answer to 'who decides who is what'.

In that line of thinking, is Guru trying to 'institutionalize' bhakti then?

I thought eating chocolate is against HK code of conduct???

I'm pretty sure eating Krishna in deity form is against something. Note they are selling Euro goddess figures, Buddhas, etc. They are exploiting the Lord's form. But I don't know, like the story of the sila that was on the butcher's scale, maybe the Lord wanted to appear as a chocolate deity? I have no clue.

After all, Varnashram Dharma is not a prescription for how things *ought* to be, it is a description of how things *are* in a balanced, God-conscious society.

 

So, to say we need to artificially introduce DVD to further Bhakti is to have reversed priorities.

This is a new thought on this topic here, and it sounds right to me. Only thing is to find a balanced, God-conscious society . But I agree, like I mentioned when I lived at the temple things naturally fell into place, though of course we had our issues. But there were the varnas and ashrams and it was pretty clear to me. I never thought then we needed some 'official' designating commitee.

DVD is there to support bhakti, not replace it. Just like the regulative principles aren't bhakti. Training wheels, we need training wheels! But the priority of instituting this I don't know. I'll follow the dictates of my Gurudeva. I think saranagati and the sisastikam should be my main push personally. If I were tolerant, humble and willing to respect others everything else would be easy. If I were surrendered I would follow without compromise. Then I could chant the Holy Name.

Unless the "ashram" aspect of DVD is strong, especially with brahminically qualified devotees, then how will the varna aspect ever develop according to Srila B.V. Swami Prabhupada's desires?

Yes, this comes down to leadership, who is qualified? And if qualified, do they have the trust of the community to lead? Will the community follow? What if they won't?

Anyhow, at the end of the day I would be very happy to have this in place, just how is all I'm asking. If it is not done correctly it could cause more harm than good, and discredit the concept, like the caste system in India has done.

The question is ... is it practical in the age of Kali Yuga where people are having trouble just keeping the 4 regulative principles and chanting the holy name?

The thinking is it would help you keep the 4 regs and assist in receiving the Holy Name.

...and there is no qualified Ksyatria there to wisely discern their true symptoms...

 

...brahmana or ksyatria is in charge, but has no sensitivity to this level of philosophy...

So in your society, who will decide who is qualified? The GBC? Who? How will this work? We have gone beyond asking if this should be done, sure, but HOW? Who is to say who is qualified? Many at the top are often found to be unqualified, worse even.

You also say 'Dust of the Feet of the Living Dead Gurus' what is that supposed to mean? I hope you are referring to ISKCON and not SCSMath.

And when some quantity of these young people discover that they are inwardly not so cut out for strictly brahminical types of service, and there is no qualified Ksyatria there to wisely discern their true symptoms according to guna and karma and thus encouragingly organize them into types of service which more suit their tendencies....

 

This will mean that someone who thinks they are a brahmana or ksyatria is in charge, but has no sensitivity to this level of philosophy, and will at first cajole, and then try to coerce the young person to continue with their "austere" service. Then they will burn out, and bloop, and some will never want to hear Krsna's name again.

 

Get it?

 

DVD or Dust of the Feet of the Living Dead Gurus. What shall it be?

 

Hare Krsna

They have the shelter of Srila Govinda Maharaj. The mood at SCSMath is not ISKCON, the austerites are self-imposed and not seen as austerities by these kids, I know that. It is through love and affection they come, and through love and affection they stay.

One of the devotees I respect most was a criminal, did so many heavy things, spent lots of time in prison, but is now a very learned pandit, maintains his family as an example grha for the whole community, and is very dear to my Gurudeva. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, right? I commend you Prabhu for coming to devotional life and wish you all the best in your search for Sri Krishna.

I guess what I'm saying is that for a Jiva to even want to get out of Maya's grasp and serve is rare indeed, and that so many I know are actively preaching, chanting their rounds, doing pujari seva, choosing to move into the temple from their comfy grhasta parent's homes, going to college while enduring austerities no one in thier peer groups in the surrounding areas would ever accept, that impresses me. That some go out and party, I can't deny. But I still am amazed and impressed.

No, you shouldn't descriminate, don't treat anyone badly, try and be good to everyone. Remember Krsna is in the heart of every living entity, and they are all just like you. 'Do unto others...' as Jesus said, His Golden Rule. Trinad api sunechena, Mahaprabbhu's Golden Rule. And be kind to yourself as well, remember it is the modes of material nature that cover everyone, you aren't your anarthas and neither is anyone else. Underneath all the coverings we are all jiva souls, dear to Lord Krishna.

False humility is where you are pretending to be humble but really you aren't, humility is something to be cultivated not imitated. What is the value of a plasic flower, it looks good maybe but it doesn't smell sweet. You have to try and grow it through seeing yourself as small and insignificant, and giving honor and respect to others. Or so I've heard, not like I am humble or anything, I have all the same problems you are facing. Just try and see your own faults and work on them, and forgive others their faults.

If you don't do anything and the negative emotions will build up then you could either leave, become depressed or explode in an angry rage. False humility is no better than false renunciation.

Exactly.

Yeah, 'Cultural' Hare Krishnas in the way there are cultural Catholics and Jews. But at least they have some connection.

I have to say actually that many of the youth in my temple community are really engaged and impressive. I'm sure that's true all over though.

I am a rascal in the sense that i know which buttons to push to anger the devotee more who is already disturbed and angry with me. That's my nature.

 

I just don't know how to handle a situation in which i am commanded as a slave, to be controlled as a slave, to be looked down on as an inferior devotee, to be smashed when i am happy and they not, and they are reacting envious on this happiness..... sometimes i laugh this away and become happy because they are not, but wishing the best for them, sometimes i have to relax my self, carefull with my words and actions.....

 

What to do, any advices ?

First, your nature is that of a loving servant of the Lord. Being a rascal is your mundane conditioning. Maybe your eternal self is playful but this is perverted by the material energy.

Maybe you are in the wrong place. If you can't make peace with others there find somewhere you feel more comfortable. It isn't good for you to make offenses there and have a terrible time trying to serve, find someplace with like-minded devotees that you feel nurtured by and have affectionate dealings. Remember that Maya will try and stop you from serving. Don't trust your mind, question your perceptions because they are flawed. Things aren't as they first appear. What appears to be coming at you is coming from you.

Are you initiated? If not look for your Gurudeva. That is a worthwhile pursuit.

Vasudeva Datta syndrome maybe?

Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura gives the following commentary on this verse. In the Western countries, Christians believe that Lord Jesus Christ, their spiritual master, appeared in order to eradicate all the sins of his disciples. To this end, Lord Jesus Christ appeared and disappeared. Here, however, we find Śrī Vāsudeva Datta Ṭhākura and Śrīla Haridāsa Ṭhākura to be many millions of times more advanced even when compared with Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ relieved only his followers from all sinful reactions, but Vāsudeva Datta is here prepared to accept the sins of everyone in the universe. So the comparative position of Vāsudeva Datta is millions of times better than that of Lord Jesus Christ. A Vaiṣṇava is so liberal that he is prepared to risk everything to rescue the conditioned souls from material existence. Śrīla Vāsudeva Datta Ṭhākura is universal love itself, for he was willing to sacrifice everything and fully engage in the service of the Supreme Lord.

Śrīla Vāsudeva Datta knew very well that Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu was the original Personality of Godhead, Transcendence itself, above the material conception of illusion and māyā. Lord Jesus Christ certainly finished the sinful reactions of his followers by his mercy, but that does not mean he completely delivered them from the pangs of material existence. A person may be relieved from sins once, but it is a practice among Christians to confess sins and yet commit them again. By getting freed from sins and again engaging in them, one cannot attain freedom from the pangs of material existence. A diseased person may go to a physician for relief, but after he leaves the hospital he may again be infected due to his unclean habits. Thus material existence continues. Śrīla Vāsudeva Datta wanted to completely relieve the conditioned souls from material existence so that they would no longer have an opportunity to commit sinful acts. This is the significant difference between Śrīla Vāsudeva Datta and Lord Jesus Christ. It is a great offense to receive pardon for sins and then commit the same sins again. Such an offense is more dangerous than the sinful activity itself. Vāsudeva Datta was so liberal that he requested Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu to transfer all offensive activity upon him so the conditioned souls would be purified and go back home, back to Godhead. This prayer was certainly without duplicity.

Vāsudeva Datta's example is unique not only within this world but within the universe. It is beyond the conception of fruitive actors or the speculation of mundane philosophers. Due to being illusioned by the external energy and due to a poor fund of knowledge, people tend to envy one another. Because of this they are entangled in fruitive activity, and they try to escape this fruitive activity by mental speculation. Consequently neither karmīs nor jñānīs are purified. In the words of Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Ṭhākura, they are kukarmīs and kujñānīs — bad fruitive actors and bad speculators. The Māyāvādīs and karmīs should therefore turn their attention to the magnanimous Vāsudeva Datta, who wanted to suffer for others in a hellish condition. No one should consider Vāsudeva Datta a mundane philanthropist or welfare worker. Nor was he interested in merging into the Brahman effulgence or in gaining material honor or reputation. He was far, far above philanthropists, philosophers and fruitive actors. He was the most exalted personality to ever show mercy to the conditioned souls. This is not an exaggeration of his transcendental qualities. It is perfectly true. Actually, there cannot be any comparison to Vāsudeva Datta. As the perfect Vaiṣṇava, he was para-duḥkha-duḥkhī, very much aggrieved to see others suffer. The entire world is purified simply by the appearance of such a great devotee. Indeed, by his transcendental presence the whole world is glorified and all conditioned souls are also glorified. As Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura confirms, Vāsudeva Datta is the ideal devotee of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu:

One who executes Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission must be considered eternally liberated. He is a transcendental person and does not belong to this material world. Such a devotee, engaging in the deliverance of the total population, is as magnanimous as Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself.

[Madhya 19.53]

Such a personality factually represents Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu because his heart is always filled with compassion for all conditioned souls.

I believe that all a group of smart devotees need to do, is to read what Srila Prabhupada said about DVD from his Gita and Bhagavatam.

 

Then read all of the "purport to the purport" as Caturbahu Prabhu likes to say, that is, the various conversations on the subject.

 

This process itself is similar to the process of reading and rereading any transcendental subject matter. We think we are just reading, but simultaneously our lives are being arranged so that we can realize what we are reading, and in the case of instructions for sadhana, we get the opportunity to fit in and manifest according to our nature.

 

The best thing about Theist is that he won't be caught alive in a Smarta situation. He insists on an organic and factual recognition of people for who they are. If sincere devotees get trained up by reading Srila Prabhupada on DVD, they will automatically realize their current varna, ashram, and that of others. Then cooperation could ensue without false designations and condescension or power trips.

 

If it were simply study of scripture with the goal of realizations of our varna coming to help us in our service then I think that is wonderful. What you described above works for me.

Read Bhagavad-Gita, I'm going to see some devotees right now and have sanga. Real life, back later to play with you.

 

CB-R

So things that involve your body are real life, and this is not sanga?

You miss the point. The discision is understood by your minute use of free will. It is observed, by you, by guru, by ksatriya. You are what you do. The ultimate descision is yours to make who you are. Guru/brahman will help give advice, ksatriya will at last concure with brahman usually.

 

CB-R

So if my false ego tells me that I am brahman when really I'm a sudra, because of my free will I get to decide? This is no different to me than getting the varna by birth. It is meaningless.

I am all for the idea of varna system imposed by Guru, but by false ego? I don't think so.

How did Srila Swami Maharaj intend this to be? Please provide real facts, quotes on how it would be decided.

I risk all in the service of Prabhupada, especially to propigate this DVD cosmology. Even Hell for the duration of creation. If I step over the line I will be told by someone more qualified that you, that knows me better.

 

CB-R

Dayal Nitai, please forgive any offenses.

When I lived at the temple there were definitely 'divisions of labor', this was all naturally sussed out or service was given depending on ability. There was no formal system where it was said 'you are a brahman' but it quickly worked itself out, some preached, some ran sankirtan, some dug ditches, etc. The most important thing was all were engaged in service.