brajeshwara das

What about 'in our centers' escapes you and Braj? Is it really that esoteric. The answer when Srila Prabhupada is asked where, is quite plain you know.

 

CB-r

'In our centers' doesn't say anything about initiation or vows. 'In our centers' also the varnas would be recognized for the administration of the material order, but this doesn't mean you don't follow the regulative principals if you accept the vows during initiation. And Srila Swami Maharaj was clear that the devotees were not in the varnas.

You show me where he says different vows for different initiations. I will be happy to accept if this is the case. Otherwise you are speculating.

The mathmatics are Sine, Cosine, Tangent. With 2 elements of a triangle we can use one of these formulas to asertain the third missing piece/element. Be it length or angle. With the third element we also get area, which we couldn't get with a missing part to the formula.

 

The missing 'facts' as you say have been post thread bare.

 

CB-r

The fact that Srila Swami Maharaj intended his initiated diciples to take different sets of vows has not been posted. That the students of his varnashrama college or the greater society at large would follow different sets of regulations by their varna isn't what is in dispute. This is about initiation and vows. This is about bhakti yoga.

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God" (Matthew 5:9)

 

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." John 13:34-35

 

Jesus calls His disciples to discover the depths of His love.

This is how we should honor Jesus. I just tasted the Bread of Heaven from the communion in your post.

In my church as a child I never once heard anything taught against other religions. The Mercy of the Lord was stressed.

I'm guessing the mercy of Nityananda Prabhu, being so wide, would accomodate geographic necessities to allow the devotees to glorify Him. I don't see the controversy here.

I woudn't normally quote myself but I think this clearly states my position on this:

I would think the way the varna system should be set up would be for the congregation of lay people who haven't taken initiation like theist, who aren't ready to make those vows. They can be identified as those varnas and participate in the society without being bound to any vows. They would be encouraged to follow surely but no vows. But once one takes Hare Nama initiation, unless a bona fide acharya says otherwise, they should try and follow the four regs as best they can. Hopefully this would keep those that aren't ready for the vows engaged and on the path of bhakti, and those that take the vows would be limited to persons ready for the commitment. Once they take the vows, they are still a ksatriya or whatever their varna was, but they are bound to the vows and considered an aspiring devotee. Then second initiation for those with the inclination for pujari etc service. This would seem to harmonize everything from my thinking.

Once again, please consider this with an open heart.

See my latest post above and use your god given discrimination to read between the lines.

 

Srila Prabhupada told us to surrender intelligently, not surrender our intelligence.

Just because because 8+2 doesn't = 12 doesn't mean it must equal 14. That Srila Swami Maharaj was mistreated and his diciples misundertoood or didn't hear his instructions, or even prevented them from being heard, doesn't prove your point. I refuse to speculate by 'reading between the lines' unless you have clear instructions that he didn't intend his initiated disciples to follow the 4 regs. That's all this is about. You are working off an assumption of his will, I am saying please substantiate that point with some facts. Otherwise you should rethink your position on how to implement daiva varnashrama dharma. Not whether or not but how. Are you a devotee or a ksatriya? Srila Swami Maharaj said you aren't both, though you may play a role as a varna you aren't in a varna. Unless you are choosing to identify with the varna instead of as a devotee.

Now I understand that we want to see ourselves as aspiring devotees, not thinking ourselves qualified, but it is through the grace of Guru through initiation and acceptance of the four regulative principals that we enter into the sphere of the devotees. Once we do so, we shoud be chaste to those vows or be honest that we have broken them.

I would say it is a worse activity to pick apart someone elses life to find one thing to harp on in order to make a smokescreen so others might miss all the good they have to day.

 

I am not picking apart anyone's life Prabhu. This is about the subject at hand, don't make it personal.

All I can say about your take on Srila Swami Maharaj's desires is that it is speculation. He desired a varnashrama college surely, he desired his disciples to break up into varnas for convenience of service, but specifically stated the devotees didn't belong to the varnas. He never instituted a new initiation system with different vows for the different varnas, and none of your quotes you have presented lead to this conclusion that it was his desire to do so.

So while I am perfectly fine with daiva Varnashrama dharma becoming a more official part of the movement, I believe you are incorrect in saying different vows for different devotees.

I never implied otherwise.

 

 

 

Would a Ksyatria spirited Bhakta who was interacting with Karmis in a preaching mode after congregating with them for some time be guilty of eating meat if he began to take the other Ksyatria spirited Bhaktas out to thin the deer population in order to sharpen their fighting skills in war time? Is he breaking his vow not to eat meat?

If you meant from the above that he wasn't eating meat then that works for me. But your words just by the question you ask logically indicate you are talking about eating. I think you could have been more clear if you meanty otherwise.

I truly am not trying to ruffle anyone the question is base on an example discussed else where, but is not brough up here in any other fashion than to imagine a different thing, IF, only.

 

Whether 4 reg's or not I leave somewhere else. Only a big honest IF about vows is asked. Would you still choose 4 reg's or by varna, your vows of regulation? And if you like, only those that came after March 74 to this day.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das

I would choose the 4 regs but do everything following initiation differently. I would have taken everything much more seriously. I am in grhasta life now and it is very difficult to follow correctly. I would have stayed in bramachari life, it is much easier from my feeling to always remember Krishna, you always have the association of the devotees and the darshan of the Deities.

I am in a different math than you Prabhu and we never were offered anything but the 4 regs. Did Srila Swami Maharaj ever change the initiation procedure and offer specific initiation vows for the 4 varnas? If not then this is speculation on the desires of Srila Swami Maharaj.

A vow is a vow. If you took a vow then you are bound to it. If you can't uphold the vow you should take the proper understanding that you are fallen and cannot follow correctly, you are not surrendered. Looking for loopholes so you can do the activities you enjoy is not bona fide. I drink coffee. I'm sure I could justify it somehow if I look around enough in scripture but that is ignorant. I am fallen. That's that. I'm not as advanced as I may like to think, or wish others to believe. How will I ever make any real progress if I'm not honest with myself?

If Guru gives new orders and new initiates make new vows different from mine, it doesn't mean I am free from my vows. The contract was signed.

If in my service I need to take out someone to kill an animal, ok, that is my service. Remember service descends and we don't manufature it, it needs to be an order from a senior vaisnava. So I have to be very sure that this is real service not my false ego imposing its will on the environment, telling me it is service so I can be served. Maya will try and trick me in this way, and I may think very surely "I am a devotee, I am serving" but I may not be led by Guru but by Mayadevi.

But if I take these persons and train them to kill, still I do not eat the meat because I have a vow not to eat meat. I should do my service in detachment to my desires, only for the satisfaction of the Lord. Especially something like killing, this is something that should be meditated upon and there should be a very clear necessity for the service.

Personally, it feels like crap when you can't keep a vow to Guru because you are so fallen and selfish. But we just have to soldier on as best we can. Better to try and fail than not try at all. Worst is when we tell ourselves Guru really didn't mean it like that, it's ok, keep sinning. It's somehow bona fide and part of your service.

We should at least be honest enough with ourselves to know when a vow has been broken.

O my Lord, Your holy name bestows auspiciousness upon all. And You have unlimited names such as Krsna and Govinda by which You reveal Yourself.

In Your many holy names You have kindly invested all Your transcendental potency. And in chanting these names, there are no strict rules concerning time or place.

Out of Your causeless mercy, You have descended in the form of divine sound, but my great misfortune is that I have no love for Your holy name."

Here it is said, "0 my Lord, You have revealed the chanting of Your holy names, and all Your power has been invested within those names." Both the holy name of Krsna and its potency are eternal. All potencies or energies are found within the holy name of Krsna. And there is no particular time or place which has been fixed for chanting the name. It is not that one can only chant in the morning, or only after taking bath, or only after going to a holy place - there are no such conditions. One may go on chanting the holy name of Krsna anytime, anywhere, in any circumstance.

In this verse, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, "0 Krsna, You have given a most sublime opportunity to all. You are so infinitely gracious that You have given us the service of Your holy name (nama bhajana). Still, my misfortune is the worst. I don't find any earnest desire within me to take the name. I have no faith, no love, no tendency to take the name. I do not find any innate hankering to chant the name. What can I do?"

This is the second of Sriman Mahaprabhu's eight precepts. He says, "0 Lord, You have given everything from Your side to lift me up from this mundane world of relativity. Your attempt to deliver me is so magnanimous that all You require from me is a little cooperation in accepting Your grace, but I turn a deaf ear to Your magnanimous call. 0 Lord, I am hopeless."

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has given us great hope in the first verse of His Siksastakam or eight precepts. He explains that the chanting of the holy name of Krsna, when properly undertaken, may progress step by step, revealing seven consequences. The first effect is the cleansing of consciousness; the second is liberation from all mundane relativity. As the third effect, positive goodness awakens within our heart and takes us to Vrndavana. Then, under the guidance of svarupa-sakti, the Lord's internal energy yogamaya, we come to the vadhu conception: we are potency, we are to serve Krsna unconditionally. Vadhu means that rasa which gives full connection with the Lord (madhurya-rasa).

Ecstatic Ocean of Joy

After attaining that stage, what are the other consequences that come? One becomes a particle in the ocean of joy, and that joy is not stale or static, but ever-new and dynamic; it is purifying to the utmost. Although we are allowed to keep our individual conception, still we feel that all parts of our existence become purified to the utmost when we take the name. And this will not only affect me, but all who are connected with this nama-sankirtana. They will experience mass conversion, mass purification, the utmost purification. These are the sevenfold results of chanting the holy name.

From The Golden Volcano by Srila Sridhar Maharaj

Evidence is given to you more than enough for an honest devotee.

 

CB-r

I am neither honest nor a devotee but aspiring to become both.

 

I never agreed to Srila Prabhupada's face to follow as brahman. He knows me as Ksatriya.

 

CB-r

Sorry Prabhu if I was unfair to you. I didn't know Srila Swami Maharaj initiated ksatriya disciples, sudra disciples etc. I thought like SCSMath it was Hari Nama with understanding/agreement to the 4 regs. No one told you to follow the 4 regs then you aren't bound to them.

I don't have much contact with ISKCON practices so please forgive me for making the assumption.

I'm at peace with Bhakta Raja and whatever he chooses to eat, no problem. But the following is nonsense:

The vow was not to take meat, not to refuse to engage the local Ksyatrias in the hunting required to keep them sharp in a wartime situation.

It frankly sounds delusional and earlier you had said that his meat-eating was from his neophyte days and forgivable. When shown he still does this activity, you make this huge stretch to justify it somehow. The positive vow he made is negated by the perceived necessity to "to engage the local Ksyatrias in the hunting required to keep them sharp in a wartime situation."

Whatever dude.

I thought it was you that somewhere in the depth of this thread made a crack about 'living Guru' And applied missunderstanding from that, to me. Not you?

 

'My point' of my current siksa, is as you have said of Govinda Maharaja. I say, I do the same. That is my siksa.

 

CB-r

I don't believe that was me, Srila Govinda Maharaj is my diksa Guru. I have no problem where people find or don't find Guru, that is an internal personal thing in my opinion.

Makes perfect sense coming from you. Logic, love it.

 

CB-r

Why was that not unexpected?

I AM the great and powerful, most merciful and I am aTHEIST.

 

As I AM aTHEIST, I have come to the most profound understanding of my divinity.

 

As I stand here upon this high peak looking down upon all of you unwashed masses, it brings crocodile tears to my eyes. You are not capable of understanding how or who or what you were meant to be or do in this world amidst your lower carnal desires.

 

There is no hope for a gradual process of salvation, redemption, and falling in love with God for such fools as you. There is no time left, you have ruined everything.

 

ON YOUR KNEES and chant the names of God.

 

And you can thank me later, when you realize I was and am aTHEIST. And the only one who knows what is best for EVERYONE else.

 

Muahahahaha

 

 

Hare Krsna

Funny, but this is the way I imagine you Go figure!

The others have posted wonderful suggestions, and I think if you take their advice, it will certainly help you.

 

I would also like to add, that you have to let go of those past things that you did, as they are done with. Don't try to completely forget them, but use them as a tool to remind you of the path you are now taking. As far as controlling your mind from these thoughts, just let them be. They are within you for a reason and once you begin to be mindful of them, you will see how things begin to change.

 

Don't be regretful or upset about the things you have done in the past, as those are the things that have brought you to the path you are following today.

 

Good luck my friend! Be well.

Yeah, I think remembering where you come from keeps you humble.

You still have not answered who is Govinda Maharaja's living siksha guru.

 

CB-r

Ah, points you take out of context are not easily forgotten, are you an elephant? So I'm an ass, you are an elephant, Bhaki-Raj there is what again? I wonder what animal theist and Beggar feel most embodies thier moods. Hmm...

My point is was we should all consider ourselves students per Srila Sridhar Maharaj's instructions, that even who we consider Guru have stated they receive siksa from other devotees. I never said anything about "Srila Govinda Maharaj's living siksa Guru". I wouldn't know that, I am certain He listens to Guru wherever He finds Guru. What is you point anyway?

Srila Swami Maharaj was Srila Govinda Maharaj's Bhagavad Gita teacher and considered Him a 'dear son'. I'm certain Srila Govinda Maharaj considered Him siksha Guru. Varnashrama is even mentioned in a letter to Srila Govinda Maharaj from Srila Swami Maharaj, thought you would get a kick out of it:

New Delhi

16 September, 1955

 

His Holiness Sripada Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaja

Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math

Kolergunj

P.O. Navadvipa,

Dist. Nadia (W.Beng.)

 

My dear Sripada Govinda Maharaja,

 

This morning I received two copies of your "Gaudiya Darshan'' and I was very glad to see its appearance. When I was at Mathura I heard from Spd. Kesava Maharaja and so also I heard it from Spd Goswami Maharaja that His Holiness Sripada Sridhara Maharaja is going to publish "Gaudiya Darshan'' and today I find it actually in hand. I cannot but offer my congratulations to your holiness. Because I know if anything has been done it is due to your energy. I can understand now why Sripada Sridhara Maharaja bestowed all his mercy upon you. He rightly found in you some dormant energy for future action and we can see that it is now fructifying duly.

 

I have read with great interest your article especially the one which is named as "CHALAR PATHE.'' It is not only very amusing but also instructive. Simple dry philosophical arguments will not be appealing now a days to people in general. They will like to read such articles as written by you with greater relish. In this article I can find out that you have really some parts and in time you can become a great transcendental humorist in the art of journalism. You have complete mercy of your Divine master and you can depend on his blessings for your future improvement. I sincerely wish you all success—Undoubtedly you are now in the highest order of Varnasrama Dharma but we cannot forget that you belong to the category of our affectionate sons. We cannot forget all such filial love for you and when we see that you are improving in all respects it gladdens our heart. I have just written a letter to Sripada Gosvami Maharaja and in that letter the following statements have been carried to him him. The wordings are as follows:-

 

"This day we have received two copies of Gaudiya Darsana from Sripada Sridhara Maharaja's Math at Navadvipa. The starting is very good and I have quite appreciated the endeavour of Sripada Maharaja although very late. It is better late than never. He has a very good assistant in the person of young Govinda Maharaja and I think it is a good attempt.''

 

Your poem on Vasita is also good. All these show that you have good tact and may God help you more and more. Sripada Sridhara Maharaja's article on Gaudiya Darsana is philosophical and if he so desires I can get it translated into English by myself and get it published in the Sri Sajjanatoshani Patrika. I understand that Sripada is now out on pilgrimage and you can let me know his opinion when he comes back or earlier according to your convenience.

 

Hope you are well. Vrindaban wanted to live with me and so he has come here from Calcutta just a few days before. Where is Madhusudana Maharaja? Please convey my dandabats to all the Vaisnavas. With my regards for you all.

 

Yours affectionately,

A.C. Bhaktivedanta

What's stronger coffee or Krsna bhakti?

Yeah, but it's like (forgive the reference, think of them as veggie) "green eggs and ham." We are begged to taste them, begged to try them, but we continuously refuse to do it, even we may say "I love them" but we never really take a bite. So we go on with our coffee and wish we had the guts to really try and taste them. One day maybe, with the grace of the devotee, I may finally open my mouth and realize "I do, I do! I do so like Krishna Bhakti! Thank you Thank you Sam I am!"

I'd rather think of deer in this way, taking nourishment from Srila Govinda Maharaj's hand.

Well spoken Prabhu, but consider this one comment,

 

"But I would never consider trying to interpret Guru's words to mean I am released from my vow."

 

That is your flaw, because that was never implied nor inferred, but you took the possibility it might be there anyway and made a pretty nice essay around it, so I take it as the end justifying the means.

 

But still know that in preaching, this is what we must preach to meet those souls with less sukrti, krpa sakti, and or advancement then some of us have, the latest rules and regs, compiled, equal the rules and regs for those initiated in the future, and this would necessitate the authorized proxy initiators to know the candidate quite well according to their conditioned symptoms to assure that the rules and regs given to that person were appropriate thus DVD knowledge a must. From now on. Prabhupada's orders.

 

So we can engage those Ksyatria's less brahminically inclined then such a stalwart like Caturbahu, and all the Vaisya's and Sudras too, and we all start with deep conditioning, so Prabhupada extended his merciful glance to habitual meat eaters and drinkers, just regulate and thus gradually restrict.

 

A house the whole world can live in.

 

Caturbahu das' example of him taking license in his neophyte days was an accidental fall down for sure, as time has obviously wizened him for the wear, and he is right back on the saddle with lesson learned.

 

Hare Krsna

No, he's saying he likes to hunt like Elmer Fudd. Read his posts.

In SCSMath we have 1st and 2nd initiations. 1st is Hare Nama with the agreement to follow the 4 regs. No fire sacrifice. 2nd is Gayatri initiation with the sacrifice. Then you are a Brahmin. So there is room there to not have to reach the brahminical standards, but still the 4 regs are required. We are initiated to be devotees, not ksatriyas, vaisyas or sudras.

Anyhow, if you took a vow to follow the 4 regs and have gone a'hunting, I can't blame you, I have gotten intoxicated, gambled and had illicit sex. An egg or two as well. But I would never consider trying to interpret Guru's words to mean I am released from my vow. I am a sinner and a terrible disciple who has not followed correctly according to my agreement with my Gurudeva. I am truly lower than a worm in stool and am ashamed of myself.

What it appears to me, please forgive any offense but I'm speaking from the heart, is that Maya has clouded your judgment and you used Srila Swami Maharaj's desire for a varnashrama college and to have the varnas as part of ISKCON to mean that you are released from your vows. You apparently look for his words to support your conclusions instead of looking for the truth in his words. This is bad for you and I hope you can see that. That is worse than the act of killing and eating the meat. You may act in the capacity of a ksatriya but please don't ignore Srila Swami Maharaj said a devotee is not in the varnas though you play that role. Unless he specifically released you from your vows you are bound to them, no matter what you have worked out in your head. Others that may follow may be bound by different rules surely, but they are not retroactive (unless you can prove otherwise).

But that isn't to say you guys don't have a real mission with your DVD. Just misconceptions maybe. I would think the way the varna system should be set up would be for the congregation of lay people who haven't taken initiation like theist, who aren't ready to make those vows. They can be identified as those varnas and participate in the society without being bound to any vows. They would be encouraged to follow surely but no vows. But once one takes Hare Nama initiation, unless a bona fide acharya says otherwise, they should try and follow the four regs as best they can. Hopefully this would keep those that aren't ready for the vows engaged and on the path of bhakti, and those that take the vows would be limited to persons ready for the commitment. Once they take the vows, they are still a ksatriya or whatever their varna was, but they are bound to the vows and considered an aspiring devotee. Then second initiation for those with the inclination for pujari etc service. This would seem to harmonize everything from my thinking.

Please consider this with an open heart.

No, No, No offense. It's my spelling that is at fault. Not what I'm saying.

 

To address the other post about meat eating. In the same conversation Prabhupada says 'in ISKCON', 'our centers'. It is there for the honest. He is asked twice in that first conversation about 4 reg's and both times augments the perscription of regulation. It is said by Prabhupada, as I have repeated. And try my best to live.

 

Believe me when I make a big mistake Prabhupada will tell me to correct it. Last time I tryed to present this DVD cosmoligy on line I was told to stop by my Guru and I did. That is why I have been silent for so long, on all the forms. You can see my date of registration is 04. And no posts untill now. Now He has said to speak.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

Could you repost the quote, with as much of the surrounding conversation as possible. 'in ISKCON', 'our centers' doesn't say 'initiated disciples' so I want to ber sure what the context is. Thanks.