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brajeshwara das

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Posts posted by brajeshwara das


  1. I an attempt to get the discussions here about what some lovingly call 'DVD' on some higher ground I thought a discussion about what Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada's vision for the Varnashrama College would be should prove productive. Please keep this to the Colleges only (not greater ISKCON or mainland China etc) and post any quotes you have regarding how these should be set up. My desire here is for this thread to be in service to Srila Swami Maharaj, so please let's not bicker.

     

    Hare Krishna


  2.  

    Ah, but try and see that I have no interest in proving you wrong. If you have the evidence that clearly, without a doubt states that eating meat as an initiated disciple is bona fide then present it. I am willing to accept it, I have no sentimental feeling against killing, my body is a battlefield as I type this, but I neither slay nor am slain. That isn't the point. The question about if the Acharya intends his disciples to eat meat based on the conversation you quoted from 74, that is the question. I haven't seen enough to suggest that it is the case. Preliminary help extends how long? 30 years into your practicing life? Is this really what he wanted or is it that you are too charmed with the thought of being a mighty king, a ksatriya? He said if they are intelligent they will realize it isn't worth it. Please with an open heart consider this.

     

    This is in no way quoting Srila Swami Maharaj.


  3.  

    This not to condone killing cows. It is emergency only, after much effort in regular activites to produce food stuff has failed.

    Very good it is the only place in the Bhagvatam that a cow is killed in service to the population by a religious king.

     

    What is the point? Get over that which you(figurative) do not know much about. Have a cool mind and study for some time before just rejecting at first glance. Re-read all these conversations in the company of others and talk about the posibility that all I and Bk Devarsi have said could be true as presented.

     

    Instead of reading to find us wrong, switch places and read to prove us right. Try it. The initial reaction to DVD is knee jerk, jusy like the reaction to killing a cow was. But cow can be killed under the most extreme conditons. DVD is not even that extreme, it is just vedic for devotee's. And all varnas are concidered vaisnava, not just brahman.

     

    Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

     

    Ah, but try and see that I have no interest in proving you wrong. If you have the evidence that clearly, without a doubt states that eating meat as an initiated disciple is bona fide then present it. I am willing to accept it, I have no sentimental feeling against killing, my body is a battlefield as I type this, but I neither slay nor am slain. That isn't the point. The question about if the Acharya intends his disciples to eat meat based on the conversation you quoted from 74, that is the question. I haven't seen enough to suggest that it is the case. Preliminary help extends how long? 30 years into your practicing life? Is this really what he wanted or is it that you are too charmed with the thought of being a mighty king, a ksatriya? He said if they are intelligent they will realize it isn't worth it. Please with an open heart consider this.


  4. I don't know what this may have to do with the subject at hand, but here you go. Sorry some of us work and can't post on demand:

     

     

     

    Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Srimad Bhagavatam 4.17.25

    amusham kshut-paritanam

    artanam paridevitam

    samayishyami mad-banair

    bhinnayas tava medasa

     

    SYNONYMS

    amusham -- of all of them; kshut-paritanam -- suffering from hunger; artanam -- of the distressed; paridevitam -- the lamentation; samayishyamiI shall pacify; mat-banaih -- by my arrows; bhinnayah -- being cut totava -- of you; medasa -- by the flesh.

     

    TRANSLATION

    Now, with the help of my arrows, I shall cut you -- pieces; to pieces and with your flesh satisfy the hunger-stricken citizens, who are now crying for want of grains. Thus I shall satisfy the crying citizens of my kingdom.

     

    PURPORT

     

     

    Here we find some indication of how the government can arrange for the eating of cow flesh. It is here indicated that in a rare circumstance when there is no supply of grains, the government may sanction the eating of meat. However, when there is sufficient food, the government should not allow the eating of cow's flesh just to satisfy the fastidious tongue. In other words, in rare circumstances, when people are suffering for want of grains, meat-eating or flesh-eating can be allowed, but not otherwise. The maintenance of slaughterhouses for the satisfaction of the tongue and the killing of animals unnecessarily should never be sanctioned by a government.

     

    As described in a previous verse, cows and other animals should be given sufficient grass to eat. If despite a sufficient supply of grass a cow does not supply milk, and if there is an acute shortage of food, the dried-up cow may be utilized to feed the hungry masses of people. According to the law of necessity, first of all human society must try to produce food grains and vegetables, but if they fail in this, they can indulge in flesh-eating. Otherwise not. As human society is presently structured, there is sufficient production of grains all over the world. Therefore the opening of slaughterhouses cannot be supported. In some nations there is so much surplus grain that sometimes extra grain is thrown into the sea, and sometimes the government forbids further production of grain. The conclusion is that the earth produces sufficient grain to feed the entire population, but the distribution of this grain is restricted due to trade regulations and a desire for profit. Consequently in some places there is scarcity of grain and in others profuse production. If there were one government on the surface of the earth to handle the distribution of grain, there would be no question of scarcity, no necessity to open slaughterhouses, and no need to present false theories about over-population.

     

    Please don't turn this into some license to eat cows in ashrams. This is the 108th post in this topic BTW.


  5.  

    It is asked where to do it and Prabhupada said in our centers, amoung our people. It is just to plan. Post the conversations yourself and show the deviations or why do you speak like a fool? SB 8.2.30 is also used, post it and give a conclusion in context to DVD.

     

    Is any of the adversion, with no other prof but your mouth, the quality of a devotee? I have been called many ill names and made much fun of, but you guys have nothing but mouths and no substance.

     

    Put up these conversations, as I did and give a reasonable retort or be known as ludricus.

     

    CB-r

     

    Post where Srila Swami Maharaj says to eat meat in his centers, among his people.


  6.  

    Indeed I consider Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Maharaj to be an advanced devotee, but that is just my opinion. I believe that a disciple of Srila Prabhupada who makes a certain degree of advancement under his instructions may naturally find some of what SBRSM has to say in his books to be of some value in the course of time, without some follower of SBRSM needing to "try" and hook him into the mission.

     

    It was the opinion of Srila Swami Maharaj as well.

     

    To be of some value? Srila Swami Maharaj said specifically that Srila Sridhar Maharaj was Om Vishnupada, his siksa guru, "so what to speak of

    the benefit that others can have from his association."

     

    He wanted to bring others to Srila Sridhar Maharaj:

    "Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur told me that Sridhar Maharaj is one of the finest preachers of Krishna consciousness in the world, so I wanted to take him everywhere. This was my earnest desire. But since he could not go around the world and preach, at least the people of the world should come to hear from him." Again: "So if one is actually serious to take instructions from a siksa guru, or instructing spiritual master, I can refer him to one who is the most competent of all my Godbrothers."Sridhar Maharaj is a pure devotee per Srila Swami Maharaj, your opinion doesn't matter:

    "He was always my good advisor, and I took his advice very seriously because from the very beginning I knew that he was a pure devotee of Krishna. So, I wanted to associate with him. Krishna and Prabhupad, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, liked him to prepare me. Our relationship is very intimate."

     

     

    ]some of what SBRSM has to say in his books to be of some value in the course of time,

     

    You try to minimize Guru here, why? Whether the Guru is in a thatched hut on the banks of the Ganga with one disciple or running a worldwide mission, if he is genuine it is Krishna Himself that is empowering him.

     

    This is why I said to be careful not to cause offense to Guru Tatva, and why I posted the quote of Srila Swami Maharaj. Not to bring anyone to SCSMath but to eradicate the belief that there is one Guru of highest quality and all other manifestations of Guru are lesser. A true manifestation of Guru is a manifestation of Krishna, you really want to minimize Him?

     

    I figured that you guys say to follow Srila Swami Maharaj's instructions 'black and white' but really you cherry pick, you add your emphasis for what is important to your agenda and minimize his words in other places. Was he insincere when speaking of Srila Sridhar Maharaj above? Is that what you are saying?

     

    If Srila Swami Maharaj really intends for some disciples to eat meat I have absolutely no issue with that, but I don't think it is conclusive. One place it is mentioned and not specific to initiated disciples, the public was what was being discussed. If it really was his intention and as you say he spoke of it constantly for 4 years, surely you have more proof?


  7.  

    If there is such sensitivity already to the fact as Theist and Beggar point out that this is an "open forum", thus the gate is "already open", when how could it be possible that a person faithful to Srila BR Sridhar Maharaja, or Srila Govinda Maharaja's discipline would give their own "opinion" to contradict the black and white order of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja for his mission.

     

    The order for initiated disciples to engage in eating meat is not clear, I am not contradicting Srila Swami MAharaj at all, but asking for more proof that this is his intention. This is very serious, you are asking people to follow based on an assumption of what he meant. If I have commited any offense to Srila Swami Maharaj I sincerely request his forgiveness, but that I disagree with his disciples on this point is no offense to him.


  8. We are very fortunate to hear His Divine Grace, Om Visnupad Paramahamsa Parivrajak Acharya Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaj. By age and by experience, in both ways, he is senior to me. I was fortunate to have his association since a long time, since perhaps 1930. At that time he had not accepted sannyas, but had just left home. He went to preach in Allahabad, and on that auspicious occasion we were connected. Sridhar Maharaj lived in my house for many years, so naturally we had very intimate talks. He has such high realizations of Krishna that one would faint to hear them. He was always my good advisor, and I took his advice very seriously because from the very beginning I knew that he was a pure devotee of Krishna. So, I wanted to associate with him. Krishna and Prabhupad, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, liked him to prepare me. Our relationship is very intimate. After the breakdown of our spiritual master’s institution I wanted to organize another institution making Sridhar Maharaj the head. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur told me that Sridhar Maharaj is one of the finest preachers of Krishna consciousness in the world, so I wanted to take him everywhere. This was my earnest desire. But since he could not go around the world and preach, at least the people of the world should come to hear from him. For spiritual advancement of life we must go to someone who is actually practicing spiritual life. So if one is actually serious to take instructions from a siksa guru, or instructing spiritual master, I can refer him to one who is the most competent of all my Godbrothers. This is B.R. Sridhar Maharaj. I consider Sridhar Maharaj to be even my siksa guru, so what to speak of the benefit that others can have from his association.

     

    ~ Srila Swami Maharaj


  9.  

    You do not understand 'why' an aplogy was given do you? You actually have the idea Srila Prabhupada is some how less than His brothers, when actually, He is so much more.

    I apologize to my childeren, even I made no mistake. but that does not make them more than the father. It is for their encouragement, nothing more. The mistakes were not on Prabhupada's part, He spread the chanting of the Maha mantra thtough out the world. No one else even moved untill Prabhupada left and vultures came out to make false claims of grandure in Prabhupada's absents.

     

    The apology was Vaisnava edict.

     

    CB-r

    Srila Swami Maharaj asked his disciples to seek guidance from Srila Sridhar Maharaj, who he even called Siksa Guru. I am not saying he made a mistake in his criticisms of his Godbrothers, but that he had a purpose for saying what he said about his Godbrothers. My understanding it was to keep ISKCON as an organization focussed, if some disciples thought other Gurus may have something more they may have left Srila Swami Maharaj and damaged the mission. I don't think it was just a formality to apologize. He had done the needful in his comments and my understanding is Srila Sridhar Maharaj knew this.


  10. The following is the only place I have seen quoted that Srila Swami Maharaj is saying to eat meat:

     

     

    Conv. 3/14/74

     

    Hridayananda: So in our varnasrama college the students that come to our college, they follow the four principles... They follow...

     

    Prabhupada: Four principles essential. Essential. But only the sudras or the kshatriyas... Just like kshatriyas, they have to learn how to kill. So practically, they should go to the forest and kill some animal. And if he likes, he can eat also. If he likes, he can eat also.

     

    Hridayananda: What he kills.

     

    Prabhupada: Yes. But not from the slaughterhouse. Those who are kshatriyas, they can, they’re allowed sometimes to eat meat. It is understood Bhima, Bhima also eating sometimes meat. Bhima. Amongst the Pandavas, only Bhima. Not others. So if the kshatriyas, they want to eat meat, they can be allowed on particular occasions. But they must go to the forest and kill the animal. Not that for meat-eating regular slaughterhouses should be maintained. This is all nonsense, degradation. If you want to eat meat, you go to the forest. And the sudras, they also sometimes eat meat. Or the candalas.

     

    Hridayananda: But never the cow.

     

    Prabhupada: No. Cow... The sudras, they can take a goat and sacrifice before the deity, goddess Kali, and then eat. Nobody should be given unrestricted freedom to eat meat. Or wine. If one is adamant to drink wine, then there is Candi-puja, Durga-puja. That means restriction. That means restriction. Under certain condition. Similarly, sex life—marriage. That is also sex life, but under condition

     

     

    Hridayananda: So just to clarify, Prabhupada, I want to make sure I have it very clear, that if someone comes to our varnasrama college, even though this may be preliminary help, in general—you’ve made some exceptions—but in general, when they come to our college, they have to follow the four regulative principles, also learn something about Bhagavad-gita and then, side by side, they learn a...

     

    Prabhupada: Four regulative principles compulsory.

     

    Hridayananda: Yes.

     

    Prabhupada: But if some of the kshatriya or the sudras, they want, so that is our prescription: “Go to the forest and kill some animal and eat that.” That’s all. You can kill one boar. Some disturbing elements, you can kill. You can kill some tiger. Like that. Learn to kill. No nonviolence. Learn to kill. Here also, as soon as you’ll find, the kshatriya, a thief, a rogue, unwanted element in the society, kill him. That’s all. Finish. Kill him. Bas. Finished. So other will see, “Oh, the ruler is very strong.” And others will... One killing will be lesson for many hundreds and thousands. No mercy. “Kill him.” That’s all. That was the system. In Kashmir about hundred years ago. If somebody has stolen, cut his hand. Bas. He cannot steal any more. So one cutting hand means finish. In that part of the world, no more stealing.

     

    I don't see that he is talking about initiated disciples here. You may read this into it, go ahead. It isn't clear to me. That the Varnashrama system would be part of the general ISKCON movement I also don't contest, just I see a distinction from the Varnashrama College open to the general public and initiated ISKCON devotees, and the role any meat eating may have. Of course something open to the general public may not follow the same rules as a a temple. Give me more evidence that initiated disciples can eat meat. It has to be a specific reference, because I believe he was making a distinction.

     

    Also please don't use Bhima as an example for the common man. "Amongst the Pandavas, only Bhima. Not others." He was an exception.


  11.  

    What you 'think' is one thing, that is for you. But if you want to interpret from an outstanding Guru such as Srila Prabhupada then it is customary on the vaisnava forms to post evidence relative and in context to the topic then refute or give a different view after some study. Are you studying these converstions?

     

    CB-r

     

    I have read the quotes and I am not refuting Srila Swami Maharaj but your interpretation. It surely is with my own interpretation but we are both allowed. I believe I have shown flexibility in my position and have adjusted accordingly, I just don't reach the same conclusions as you.


  12.  

    Unfortunately as you have admitted your safe position is not so safe, as you have had great difficulty following the "4 regs".

     

    So if you would listen to The Acharya...

     

     

     

    Perhaps he had you in mind to some degree or another when he made adjustments to what people had to do to be considered neophyte Vaisnava's in his Krsna Consciousness Movement, and with your determination, you would have the capability to fulfill your vows, because they would not be out of your reach according to the current guna and karma of your unique evolutionary moment.

     

    Hare Krsna

     

    It is my understanding he appologized to his godbrothers before leaving this plane. It was for you he gave this so your society wouldn't disintegrate as all your godbrothers sought out someone else as Guru. That is my understanding anyway. This isn't a topic I have spent any time studding so I frankly don't know. But anyone thinking the mercy of the Lord is limited should be careful.


  13.  

    Anyone following a discipline given by the lotus lips of a Mahabhagavat Acharya is devoted to him to that degree, and thus at least a neophyte Vaisnava devotee. And especially when that Acharya offers SECOND initiation to the person. Even the one "acting" as sudra and taking some meat.

     

    To insist otherwise could be considered smarta elitism, and I am sure that is not what a Devotee intends, but it often occurs in the beginning stages, no harm no foul right, live and learn right, we all make mistakes right?

     

    I'm not condoning elitism, and we all definitely make mistakes. Just it still isn't clear a devotee acting in the position of a sudra does all the activities of a sudra. Someone needs to dig a ditch for Gurudeva, or paint the temple, etc. Does someone need to eat a goat? Is that service? They aren't qualified to do brahman service maybe, but this doesn't naturally lead that they are so unqualified they can't follow the regulative principles.

     

    Until you are ready to follow the principles, come to the temple, take prasadam, chant Hare Krishna, do service, play your role in the society. That is wonderful. When you are ready for the land of dedication, take the vows, follow strictly whatever you capacity. No problem.


  14.  

    If we are acting out our roles, and they are our natural material tendency anyway, perhaps it should be done convincingly, and to the letter of the Acharya's orders.

     

    Wow, you are really a Vaisnava? Srila Bhakti Sifddhanta Saraswati looked all over Vrndavan but couldn't find one Vaisnava, but here you are on the forum! Nice :D Kust kidding, thanks for making me think of that story. I know the point was different and I'm sure you are an exhalted devotee. I'm just an ass, don't mind me.

     

    Anyhow, If we take initiation we understand we are entering into the world of bhakti and that that transcends all mundane material roles. We are acting as a guard because the temple needs to be guarded. We are doing the service required of us. We don't open a factory, build an army or do any manner of things just because we are playing a role in a varna. Service descends, we don't make it up. The varnas should serve bhakti clearly, we don't just maintain the activities of the varnas for their own sake.

     

    Until I see that the acharya says something clearly to the effect 'You, initiated disciple, go out and kill and animal and eat its flesh' I will take the safe position and assume the Acharya's order that initiated disciples follow the four regulative principles trumps everything else.

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