cbrahma

At this point I agree, since most of the bloggers engaged in the 'discussion' seem only to be capable of responding by flaming.

This is a good one. It is like the compassionate dictator. The Inquisitors claimed to be torturing people for the 'good of their soul'. I always worry when people claim to be controlling me 'for my own good'. It turns out no good ever comes of it. ,

This is not an installment of the "Evil Christians vs the Sainly Vaisnava" graphic novel. I am discussing principle against principle not stereotypes.

Yes Jesus is the Master. Jesus is also divine.

Ah yes offenses. The 4th principle in action. To which truth, logic provability must take second place. How admirably effective this system is.

On the contrary I am quite fascinated by the unpersuabability of many of the bloggers here. But then once I am aware of their belief system it all makes perfect sense. I didnt' read two cantos of the Srimad Bhagavatam not to learn anything. I didn't read the entire Bhagavad Gita just to remain ignorant. I didnt' attend literally hundreds of lectures just to be intractable. I'm not trying to convert anybody as much as to decode the mystery of the diksa submission. You can lay it at the door of Christianity if you wish. That is irrelevant. It doesn't matter what my faith is, it is logic and experience that dictate my conclusion.

It's surprising how quickly such spiritually evolved entities resort to personal flaming.

In spite of the uninspiring nature of the dialogue I've had with some of the bloggers here, it has been very instructive. I've learned the g. vaisnava apologetics and I didn't know one existed. There are four principles I've been able to disginguish that justify the vaisnava diska dominance. 1.No g. Vaisnava community is responsible for its behavior towards any inquiring/aspiring individual because we are all solely responsible for what happens to us. 2. Everbody is enslaved by something. (there is an interesting incompatiblity between this principle and no 1) 3. Loss of ego (surrender) to the all-knowing guru is the prime requisite for entry into the sacred wisdom. 4. Offense (whether true or not) is an insurmountable obstacle to 'advancement' which is defined as increasing proximity to the loving Godhead. Thank you for the education. Acceptance of these principles certainly makes the belief system of the diksa-guru dominance mechanism impregnable.

You have no idea what I am doing now or before I posted but I understand your need to believe it.

Child abuse is specific to the vaisnava institutions. It's hardly meaningless. I know victims of vaisnava abuse personally. Blame-the-victim mentality is a maintstay of an abusive system.

'Blame' is an ambiguous word when it means 'giving a reason for'. There is no blame in the moral sense, because I haven't taken up anything. This is too much coming from a religious doctrine that requires surrender to a guru, a complete acquiesence to another human being. Faith is impossible to break. If you just want one side of a discussion to bolster 'your faith', it can't be very strong.

ah a Sridar disciple. That explains it

There is a French saying 'si beau mais si faux' which translates badly into 'so beautiful and so false' The most beautiful animals are often the most dangerous. I need as much a grounding in Truth as in Beauty.

Tell it the victims of child abuse. I chose NOT to be a victim by making a realistic assessment of the diksa-enslavement mechanism.

When you have nothing left- Speculate on personal character and motive.

There is quite a diversity within Christianity itself. I am a Lutheran and therefore NOT fundamentalist. I don't presume to know who is going to hell. Only God can decide that.

The items of a passover meal are not up for speculation. Seder Table (Assemble around table -- don't eat yet.) All recline around the SEDER table, because reclining around the table was a sign of a free man. Everything on the table has a significance. On the SEDER plate there is: Hard boiled egg - symbol of the suffering and oppression in Egypt. Everything else in boiling water becomes soft or disintegrates. But an egg becomes hard, like the Israelites. The more it is boiled, the harder it becomes. An egg also symbolizes New Life. Roasted shankbone of lamb - reminds them there had to be blood sacrificed to save their lives. Bitter herbs - horseradish - reminds them they were servants to slavery. Greens - parsley, celery - symbol of coming of Spring which brings hope. Salt water - reminds them of the tears they cried in Egypt. Haroset - nut, apple, cinnamon, wine mixture which has the appearance of straw in remembrance of the mortar used to build the Treasure Cities for Pharaoh. It is symbolic of the hope of freedom that enabled their ancestors to withstand the bitterness of slavery. Matzah - the unleavened bread that reminds them of the haste with which they left Egypt. After the drinking of wine and washing of the hands the greens are dipped into the salt water and eaten. Then the bread on the SEDER plate is broken. Half remains on the plate, half is hidden for the dessert. This is to keep the interest of the children. Children are to find it and keep it till the end of the meal when the leader redeems it in exchange for the promise of gifts. Throughout the service many things are incorporated to keep the interest of the children. The most important thing is the telling of the story of the Exodus to the children.

Nice attitude. I wasn't aware this site was global. What a tiny world.

What a convenient presumption for dismissing anything you don't want to and can't addess. Nor do I care about your cyber-psychology in discerning my motives over HTTP. You are a desperate soul indeed. Such strategy is intellectual and philosophical bankruptcy. I came into this forum because I had a new interest in chanting. That interest of course has been completely preempted by the attitudes I've encountered by so-called vaisnavas on this site.

not the vapu vani thing again. Yawn. I thought Prabhupada laid that one to rest a long time ago.

The Guru Papers I couldn't have said it better myself.

I have better things to do than sort out the logical tangles of such a discussion. The fact is even if vaisnavas could convince me that Christianity was some bogus made up religion (which would take some doing), it wouldn't advance G Vaisnavism one iota. My whole purpose in posting to this forum, is that I was caught in an impossible dilemna- I was attracted to chanting and horrified by the diksa guru process. After discussing with these 'elevated' vaisnavas I decided I would be better off continuing with my Christian faith and forget about chanting.

I have studied the G Vaisnava religion for years. Read Caitanya Caritamrta, read the first two Cantos of the Srimad Bhagavatam. Listened to numerous lectures, (some by Prabuhpada) and have talked one on one with initiated disciples. These are my sources. Diksa is a process that binds you to another person for eternity. Whatever the diksa guru demands you must do. There is nothing esoteric about this. What better definition for such a relationship but slavery. Now if I don't know something, if I am such an idiot, the appropriate response from a vaisnava is to instruct, not to resort to name-calling. Any idiot can do that.

You are to be applauded for your good work. This is the essence of religion. To help the helpless and suffering.

Jesus was an Old Testament Jew. Judaism doesn't legislate vegetarianism. The Gospels recount his Passover or sader meal (the Last Supper). One of the items on that menu is lamb. Let's not forget that even in Vedic culture animals were sacrificed and eaten.