cbrahma

Prabhupada's instructions to the world had been. “At the end of his lecture Prabhupada said, ‘So if you will just follow these four regulative principles and chant sixteen rounds, then you will go back to home, back to Godhead. I guarantee it.’ He paused and looked around at all of us. Then he said again, ‘I guarantee it.’” (Dina Bandhu dasa There is no mention of other processes such as arcana, offering foodstuffs, getting diska etc... Processes which I find are rife with so many rules that they stopped me as a result of all the anxiety they caused. So if I can take him at his word, I find that good news indeed, because that's what I'm doing now.

So does mine. But because it is such an offense to the Spiritual Master it must be spoken of. Hiding does not help. Something needs to be done.

There is a group of vaishnavas called Alvars of which I know very little except they approach Krsna directly. Many think that Mira is an incarnation of Radharani. This is not so with Gaudiya Vaishnavas who insist on approaching Krsna through his devotees.

Does Sri Caitanyadeva say this, or is it devotional interpretation?

Nobody said they label the absolute Truth. I previously cited from Buddhist sources Another quote from a Buddhist source http://www.nembutsu.info/absolute2.htm So there is a concept of absolute. No doubt the quest ends in a state which is close to the Vedic concept of moskha. That is NOT the goal of the Gaudiya Vaishnava. The devotee seeks Prema Bhakti, pure unalloyed love of Krsna. He/She is content with nothing more or less than unalloyed service. It is a theistic personalist goal, unlike the Buddhist who can barely be described as theist.

I said that entities without nervous systems are still conscious and might have other senses. Made no simplistic equation between feeling and consciousness.

Exactly. Being vegetarian doesn't amount to much in itself.

I guess mushrooms aren't satvic? I made a cashew nut loaf with a layer of mushrooms. Made my own tomato sauce from scratch with Roma tomatoes and fresh basil and mustard seeds.

Since it appears that the GBC has gone rogue, appointing gurus left and right without scriptural or AC Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada's authorization, the only option must be that it should be dismantled ASAP. How does one go about doing this in a top-down organization like ISKCON. Who has the power to do so? There has to be a way.

Feeling physical pain in the way we feel it requires a nervous system. But who's to say that consciousness, even primitive consciousness is limited to only those kind of senses.

If you are to consider cash flow as incurring karmic responsibility, then you shouldn't buy vegetables or soy-products at the market, because at the corporate-holding level all the food industry enterprises such as slaughterhouses, farms etc are often owned by the same entity. Buying soya-milk by the same logic is supporting cow slaughter. Pregnancy of the cow is necessary for increased milk production. It is not the pregancy, however, that kills the calf. That is a byproduct of the dairy industry not a direct consequence. In fact all agri-business is karmically corrupt in this way. You cannot be sure that the dollars you spend on soya beans are not going to pay for milk production. It is all connected, as indeed is the web of karma.

I think the connection between offering milk to Krsna and killing calves is a bit of leap otherwise you indict a huge contingent of lacto-vegetarian vaisnava devotees.

The whole site is littered with examples from so many bloggers. I wonder how anybody ever makes any progress. Or manages to discuss anything besides the weather.

The same word may have different meanings in different contexts. Nothing in these disputed quotes has to do with not knowing what the word means. It means many things. The literalists are the mytholigizers.

Nori Muster April 1999 The American Family Foundation (AFF) will host their 1999 Conference, "Cults, Psychological Manipulation & Society" in St. Paul, Minnesota. One of the featured panel discussions will address the question whether cults can change and will specifically focus on the case of ISKCON. The panel consists of Anuttama dasa, head of ISKCON Communications; Radha dasi, a dedicated follower; and two seemingly friendly observers--Michael Langone, director of AFF and Joseph Kelly a thought reform consultant closely tied to AFF. It seems that the people on the panel will say ISKCON has changed for the better. I would like to offer a dissenting voice--since I was once a member of ISKCON, spent ten years in that organization and then devoted another decade studying and researching the group to produce books on the subject. Originally there was a time when ISKCON was innocent. It truly represented a branch of Hinduism in a pure way. Many ISKCON members feel nostalgia for those days and their ideal is to make ISKCON just like it was when Srila Prabhupada their guru was alive and actively leading the group. If ISKCON were to change for the better, this would mean reviving that innocence. However, in order to see what that would entail and whether ISKCON has successfully accomplished that ideal, it would be helpful to look at the years of lost innocence and see what went wrong. Leadership Beginning in the early 1970s, certain greedy and cruel men came into power within ISKCON. If the organization now really wants to change for the better, it should remove all illegitimate gurus, Governing Body Commission (GBC) board members, temple presidents, sannyasis (priests), and zone managers. There are at least 20-30 illegitimate leaders that still remain firmly in place within its hierarchy. Fundraising Beginning in the early 1970s, ISKCON sent its members into airports, malls and other public venues to sell books. After a short time, the leaders told them to dress in Western clothing and obscure their identity, until after they receive the money. In many temples, members were asked to lie about their identity and deny being Hare Krishnas, in order to get donations. ISKCON leaders accepted tainted money from drug dealers and other illegal sources. If things are to change for the better, ISKCON needs to solicit donations in a legitimate way and refuse all tainted money. Recruitment Throughout its history ISKCON has used irresponsible recruitment methods. The most "cult-like" aspect is that they encouraged interested people to move in and dedicate their whole lives to the organization, often giving up careers, and cutting ties with former friends and family. Legitimate religions promote living and working in the world, maintaining strong family ties and friendships. Many parents feel they lost their children to ISKCON. In order for things to change for the better, ISKCON needs to stop exercising such extreme control over their members' lives. Alienated Former Members Over the years ISKCON's board of directors has made many enemies, especially among former members. For example, they excommunicated a vocal critic named Puranjana (Tim Lee), after he accused one of the gurus of taking LSD--speaking about this violated their rules. Pranjana has now it seems become a lifelong enemy of ISKCON. Another vocal critic named Sulochan (Steve Bryant) was excommunicated after he accused one of the gurus of selling drugs and running a prostitution ring. Sulochan was then murdered by a Krishna hitman shortly after his excommunication. Some of these former members have dedicated their lives to toppling the current ISKCON leadership through lawsuits or public opinion. ISKCON leaders keep them away by claiming that these onetime Krishna devotees have certain ideological differences that are dangerous. In reality, their differences are very minor, but these disagreements have resulted in beatings, death threats, and even murder. If things are to change for the better, ISKCON needs to acknowledge these former members and make peace with them. This would be an obvious sign that things have actually changed for the better. Child Abuse I am currently writing a book about the rampant abuse of the first generation of Krishna kids, born in the late 1960s to early 1970s. These people deserve justice. It has been almost ten years since this abuse became known. But it took until 1996 for the GBC to acknowledge the problem. In 1998 the organization made this abuse known publicly in press releases to The New York Times and other news agencies. However, in all those years, they have only raised about $30,000 to compensate the victims and ISKCON has substantial resources. They could locate almost all of the child abuse victims by using class photos, but that will probably never happen. The attitude of ISKCON's leadership so far seems to be keeping the victims quiet by offering them checks for $500. They appear to be trying to find out who the abusers are, but do little other than giving the men a slap on the wrist. This is humiliation upon humiliation for the victims. This serious issue may ultimately have to be sorted out in a courtroom. ISKCON has done a lot of talking, but has actually taken little action--with the exception of Anuttama and his wife Rukmini, who donated significant amounts of their own money to the cause. Author's Note: I wrote this article a year before attorneys filed Children of ISKCON v ISKCON in a federal court in Texas. The problem is now in the hands of attorneys. For feedback and media coverage on the lawsuit, link to: http://surrealist.org/gurukula/lawsuit.html. Spousal Abuse For a long time, ISKCON has had leaders who beat their wives and advocate wife beating among the other married men. Also, ISKCON arranged marriages between minor-aged girls and often abusive men. The girls' complaints were generally ignored. In order for ISKCON to really change for the better, they must come out in the open about their spousal abuse problem, remove abusers from official positions, and compensate the victims. Other Abuse In order for ISKCON to really change, all these attitudes must change and then it could really become a be a better organization. http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_articles/muster_nori_cancultschangecaseofiskcon.htm

Are you saying that all these critical 'vaisnavas' are gurus? That's preposterous. What adds insult to injury is the impersonal attitude of these so-called vaisnavas (from now on I will use the acronym SCV to designate pseudo-devotees) is that fault-finding is the only attention they give most people.

As a poet and writer, I understand words have several meanings in different contexts and with different authors. The previous posts have pointed out that 'rape' has an archaic sense of 'being carried off', which fits perfectly with the context. I had no problem with it.

The issue with a non-dairy diet is the B12 vitamin. There is a serious disease called pernicious anemia which is caused by a deficiency in that vitamin.

Shouldn't we be practical in our practices? Consistency is the most important. Once we increase we should maintain. Prabhupada only required 16 rounds. I'm not sure why 64 is 'magic'. Of course that's how many rounds he chanted because that was his vow. The magic is the bhakti the dedication to maintain a certain standard, isn't it?

These are nice suggestions. As far as argumentation is concerned, that can be a little misleading. Jesus argued. Prabhupada argued and certainly Martin Luther argued. Then again the word 'quarrel' has a connotation of arguing pointlessly. It has to do with fight style (getting personal and nasty) and motive (wanting to do one better). We are culturally conditioned to associate being good with being 'nice'. The saints and prophets weren't always nice. I've seen self-effulgent personalities on rare occasions. Interestingly , they were at both extremes of age, very senior or very young. What they had in common is they were personal and treated everyone as though they were their most intimate friend. When they see you they smile. Now I haven't seen very much of that at all in religious settings, Christian or Vaisnava. Aloofness, impersonality seems to be the norm.

This is news to me. I thought meat was a more efficient food source, which is why carnivores eat less often. That makes sense because it's harder to get food that runs away from you and has to be killed. Herbivores eat all day long (graze).

Prabhupada: This is my proposal. If I have fresh air and free movement and sunshine then I can come back in a year… Then when I am sane man I shall come back to either Mayapur or Vrindavana or Bombay… You have tried doctor, kaviraja, medicine, everything. Everything has failed. Now, suppose I am taking the risk of death, what is wrong?… I will take milk. Milk is available everywhere. If I live, that’s all right. If I don’t live, that doesn’t matter.

There is nothing to argue about. Because Hinduism is too broad a category with too many different concepts of oneness to generalize. Hinduism is not one on the topic. Your christian friend needs to study Indian/Vedic religious sects before making sweeping statements about what they believe.

My understanding is that milk products are a mainstay of vaisnava food offerings. What does one do if one does not own a dairy cow?

So it's the tradition that decides who is authority. This means then that one needs prescience and foreknowledge about who knows. Knowing that checklist, is seems is at least as important a form of knowledge as one would need a sadhu to authorize. We have to know that the tradition has the authority to decide who is authority. This is what is known as infinite regress. I disagree with these criteria of course, since traditions have been wrong. The sale of indulgences was a tradition in the Catholic Church so it was not questioned by Catholics until Martin Luther decided (prompted by the Holy Spirit) to appeal solely to Scripture. We have the same issue with Scripture. How do we know which version of scripture is authoritative? Well the guru, the sadhu tell us. And the scriptures tell us how to identify guru and sadhu and round it goes. The only way to break the vicious circle is by an appeal to a direct inner sense, a still small voice in the heart. The 'ah ah' which has the ring of Truth. There is direct vision as when sunlight appears we can see. I believe this is what is meant by 'self-effulgence'. It represents the upper limit on appeal to authority.