cbrahma

too weird for me.

How do you know? What they make of the guru in their imagination doesn't change the fact that they're human.

Ordinary, extraordinary - still human.

What a contradiction in terms. The requirement of absolute 'surrender' is a requirement of complete control of the guru over the said disciple. There is an non-negotiable command for diksa initiation which establishes this absolute control. That's what all the controversy and corruption is about. I will never surrender to another human being. That is diabolical and a very bizarre condition for linking up to a loving God.

Well then he failed, because the history of ISKCON is a history of authoritarian abuse. I say this with authority because I experienced it first hand. So many child abuse law suits coming from so many different places attests to the dangers of the absolute authority these monsters exert over the innocent and trusting.

Ok. But the biggest factor is the power control that these so-called vaisnavas want to exert on others. Its almost diabolical. It certainly is dark and frigthening. I can't believe it's of the Spirit of God.

If so-called aparadha was sufficent to 'break' our position as disciples then most temples should have been vacated a long time ago. As it is, in my experience the most offensive and arrogant do very well in temple communities. They often rise to positions of authority.

I'm going to continue with my Christian faith. There is still some corruption but it doesn't demand total subjugation of one person by another. Nobody should have that kind of power. And it's not so damn complicated.

Hopefully if I listen to my heart (Caitya guru) and use intelligence, I won't need luck.

I believe the appeal from authority cannot be blind but must be threefold - guru sastra and sadhu. By guru I also include Caitya guru - Krsna in the heart. These must correspond and of course the conformity to simple provable fact before any acceptance is made. If somebody is going to go ballistic because you dared to question their guru -they don't care about Truth - just blind obedience. That is their ignorance. If they are authentic vaisnavas their first impulse should be to enlighten , not chastize. And by this i mean to enligthen with all the appeals possible to sastra and sadhu. Any other approach is neophyte fanaticsm and not to be tolerated.

I'm not a ritvik. That has it's own set of problems. Of course there are groups of self-professed vaishanavas whose first priority is to acquire disciples and increase their ranks. This is not a spiritual goal but a material one. It is plain old-fashioned power-mongering a la Mussolini, Hitler (take your pick of despots). Please leave me out of such proselytizing. I'm just not that stupid.

And how would you suggest we go about doing this? Starting up the whole bogus guru dominance process all over again.

I only learned about it the way most people did - through the media. By then it had already hit the courts. What I did about it was decry the hypocrisy of the so-called authorities who tried to cover it up. Now you must realize that I had to leave the temple in order to make such denouncement, because the temple authorities at the time were quite desperate and would physically attack and even kill any opposition. So spare me the moral indignation. There are still incidents reported as late as this year. What are you doing about it?

There are so many diksa initiated disciples of Prabhupada that opted not to exploit their Spritual Master's legacy and left in complete exasperation. Actually over 90 percent of them. And spare me the rhetoric about 'spreading...the ....Mahaprabhu...Vaisnava..." And every permuationa and combination of those 'hot button' words that when the rubber hits the road amount - to money, power and corruption. I'm not speaking through my orifice either. I've had first hand experience having lived at New Dwarka in the eighties when all the child molestation was going down. I've recently revisited the temple and its now just a material religion with very little shakti to speak of. All they care about is money and subservience. Very ugly.

I wish ISKCON were gone. There is something that calls itself that using its buildings and a handful of old disciples to run it. It might be a mirage, but even mirages can be dangerous.

The closing down of threads . Authoritarian exploitation. Strong arm tactics like this only confirm the corruption, the inability to account for one's policies and action.

Initiation is such a volatile topic and for good reason. ISKCON has produced so many bogus gurus and they're still falling down from last report. The importance of subjugating and exploiting people seems greater than helping them on the path of self-realization. If one must go through a formal diksa initiation for any spiritual advancement to be effective, then count me out. I will not have my mind enslaved by any 'appointed' guru just so I can qualify for spiritual advancement according to some institution that has no accountability. That is too dangerous. I've seen too many damaged people who have been duped by the lie that diksa is absolutely necessary. That is an institutional/political necessity, not a spiritual one. Prabhupada spoke on the subject of 'living guru' and I quote " .690113LE.LA Lectures ...vani and vapu, and vapu means the physical body, and vani means the vibration. So we are not concerned about the physical body. Not concerned means... We are concerned, of course, because the spiritual master, those who are acaryas, their body is not considered as materiel. Arcye sila-dhir gurusu nara-matir. Just like the statue of Krsna, to consider that "This is a stone..." Similarly, arcye sila-dhir gurusu na... Gurusu means those who are acaryas, to accept their body as ordinary man's body, this is denied in the sastras. SO ALTHOUGH A PHYSICAL BODY IS NOT PRESENT, THE VIBRATION SHOULD BE ACCEPTED AS THE PRESENCE OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, VIBRATION. WHAT WE HAVE HEARD FROM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, THAT IS LIVING. " and again 74-11-22 Letter: Bahurupa In my books the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness is EXPLAINED FULLY so if there is anything which you do not understand, then you simply have to read again and again. By reading daily THE KNOWLEDGE WILL BE REVEALED TO YOU AND BY THIS PROCESS YOUR SPIRITUAL LIFE WILL DEVELOP. 75-03-14 Letter: Sivani To take SHELTER of the Spiritual Master MEANS TO FOLLOW HIS INSTRUCTIONS. SB 3.31.48 "one has to associate with liberated persons NOT DIRECTLY, PHYSICALLY, BUT BY UNDERSTANDING, THROUGH PHILOSOPHY AND LOGIC, THE PROBLEMS OF LIFE.

Good because all you've done is confuse and discourage me, ironically in the name of the spiritual master. Prabhpada in true Gaudiya tradition removed all ritual obstacles, allowing people to follow what they could. In fact so does Krsna in the Bhagavad-Gita offer so many alternatives and He is the Spiritual Master of all spiritual masters. There is no room for the smarta-brahmana self-righteousness which is so common in ISCKON. There you made me say it.

According to the teaching, there is harm in killing anything, including vegetables which BTW are also jiva souls. The understanding is that offering to Krsna removes all karmic reactions. Now I don't know about the commercial milk though I know for a fact devotees are buying their milk at markets. There is some link between that a cow slaughter.

I've seen so much nonsense and rank corruption continue under cover of 'vaishanava aparadha'. If we are supposed to turn a blind eye to bogus gurus and criminal behavior under that rubric then it's no wonder ISKCON has managed to be as corrupt in a few decades as it took other religions like the Catholic Church centuries to accomplish. I want to see the context of Prabhupada's exhortation that we should take sanyasa at 50. He also says you don't have to give up your job, that everything can be dovetailed.

Thank you. Your response is very encouraging and lifts a burden from my spirit. I so want to chant the names of the Lord.

Srila Prabhupada writes in the Caitanya-caritamrita, Madhya lila 25:9 Purport: "Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura then comments: "Without being empowered by the direct potency of Lord Krsna to fulfill His desire and without being specifically favored by the Lord, no human being can become the spiritual master of the whole world. He certainly cannot succeed by mental concoction, which is not meant for devotees or religious people. Only an empowered personality can distribute the holy name of the Lord and enjoin all fallen souls to worship Krsna. By distributing the holy name of the Lord, he cleanses the hearts of the most fallen people; therefore he extinguishes the blazing fire of the material world. Not only that, he broadcasts the shining brightness of Krsna's effulgence throughout the world. Such an Acarya, or spiritual master, should be considered nondifferent from Krsna-that is, he should be considered the incarnation of Lord Krsna's potency. Such a personality is “krsna lingita-vigraha”- that is, he is always embraced by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna. Such a person is above the considerations of the varnasrama institution. He is the guru or spiritual master for the entire world, a devotee on the topmost platform, the maha-bhagavata stage, and a paramahamsa-thakura, a spiritual form only fit to be addressed as paramahamsa or thakura."