cbrahma

It also requires that the devotee gives up whatever maintenance he or she has and depend entirely on the proceeds of the book sales and what the temple will give him or her. That works fine while the devotee is productive and young. Once they age and can no longer produce - what happens? There is no retirement program in ISKCON. I would rather save up for that inevitable and sobering day rather than trust corrupt leaders.

If you make a statement that by implicit logic degrades other devotees the person understanding that logic is not the critic.

Being the case that most devotees don't distribute books, then most devotees, like pujaris, temple presidents, sanyassis are lower class.

The phrase 'highest form of service' gets used a lot in ISKCON to refer to book distribution, of course. In fact devotees are classified according to these types of service even over chanting, and deity worship. This seems a-siddhantic to me. If devotional service is absolute how can there be 'higher forms'?

Why didnt' Prabhupada think of this? Using Maya to attract people.

The large factor is in inverse proportion to pure devotion.

I was in the movement during Prabhupada's vapu, and there is no comparison. Take the elitism and multiply it by a large factor even with a fraction of the devotees in the LA temple.

It isn't just an "environment'. It's an elite caste system. What changes can somebody make in themselves when the parameters are all material?

ISKCON isn't just atrophied - it's completely fragmented despite the attempts of the autocratic and centralized GBC to force artificial unity. The temple community I frequent, is cold unfriendly, fragmented into cliques. Unless one makes fast friends with some inside devotee for some compelling material reason - such as youth, nationality (that's the overriding one), fame or money, one is completely isolated. For this to change - the superstructure has to change. The hierarchy has to move from being an authoritarian caste system to a flexible organization based on service and equality.

God is the Absolute Truth, the One without a Second- He is unlimited yet has unlimted forms. He is the energy and the energetic He is the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Bhagavad Gita Chapter 10 <center> Text 8 aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam pravartate iti matva bhajante mam budha bhava-samanvitah </center> Translation I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who perfectly know this engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts. Commentary by Srila Prabhupada A learned scholar who has studied the Vedas perfectly and has information from authorities like Lord Caitanya and who knows how to apply these teachings can understand that Krishna is the origin of everything in both the material and spiritual worlds, and because he knows this perfectly he becomes firmly fixed in the devotional service of the Supreme Lord. He can never be deviated by any amount of nonsensical commentaries or by fools. All Vedic literature agrees that Krishna is the source of Brahma, Shiva and all other demigods. In the Atharva Veda (Gopala-tapani Upanishad 1.24) it is said, yo brahmanam vidadhati purvam yo vai vedams ca gapayati sma krishnah: “It was Krishna who in the beginning instructed Brahma in Vedic knowledge and who disseminated Vedic knowledge in the past.” Then again the Narayana Upanishad (1) says, atha purusho ha vai narayano ’kamayata prajah srjeyeti: “Then the Supreme Personality Narayana desired to create living entities.” The Upanishad continues, narayanad brahma jayate, narayanad prajapatih prajayate, narayanad indro jayate, narayanad astau vasavo jayante, narayanad ekadasa rudra jayante, narayanad dvadasadityah: “From Narayana, Brahma is born, and from Narayana the patriarchs are also born. From Narayana, Indra is born, from Narayana the eight Vasus are born, from Narayana the eleven Rudras are born, from Narayana the twelve Adityas are born.” This Narayana is an expansion of Krishna. It is said in the same Vedas, brahmanyo devaki-putrah: “The son of Devaki, Krishna, is the Supreme Personality.” (Narayana Upanishad 4) Then it is said, eko vai narayana asin na brahma na isano napo nagni-samau neme dyav-aprithivi na nakshatrani na suryah: “In the beginning of the creation there was only the Supreme Personality Narayana. There was no Brahma, no Shiva, no water, no fire, no moon, no stars in the sky, no sun.” (Maha Upanishad 1) In the Maha Upanishad it is also said that Lord Shiva was born from the forehead of the Supreme Lord. Thus the Vedas say that it is the Supreme Lord, the creator of Brahma and Shiva, who is to be worshiped. In the Moksha-dharma Krishna also says, prajapatim ca rudram capy aham eva srijami vai tau hi mam na vijanito mama maya-vimohitau “The patriarchs, Shiva and others are created by Me, though they do not know that they are created by Me because they are deluded by My illusory energy.” In the Varaha Purana it is also said, narayanah paro devas tasmaj jatas caturmukhah tasmad rudro ’bhavad devah sa ca sarva-jnatam gatah “Narayana is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and from Him Brahma was born, from whom Shiva was born.” Lord Krishna is the source of all generations, and He is called the most efficient cause of everything. He says, “Because everything is born of Me, I am the original source of all. Everything is under Me; no one is above Me.” There is no supreme controller other than Krishna. One who understands Krishna in such a way from a bona fide spiritual master, with references from Vedic literature, engages all his energy in Krishna consciousness and becomes a truly learned man. In comparison to him, all others, who do not know Krishna properly, are but fools. Only a fool would consider Krishna to be an ordinary man. A Krishna conscious person should not be bewildered by fools; he should avoid all unauthorized commentaries and interpretations on Bhagavad-gita and proceed in Krishna consciousness with determination and firmness.

ISKCON is up to its bookkeeping eyeballs in gurus. What we need is just one pure devotee, then we can talk guru.

Maybe my poetic license has expired but I consider today's ISKCON to be a kind of negative exposure of the original. In that sense it's a shadow of fire.

That's very nice. But the institution that calls itself ISKCON would disagree. ISKCON is a dry surrogate, a shell of ritualized piety, a shadow of the original fire of the pure devotee.

It's not just an aesthetic choice - like whether you want pie or cheesecake. It's a commitment of one's whole life - whether one accepts or rejects a spiritual path. The demonic mentality is atheistic- deliberate rascaldom. Chapter 16 Srimad Bhagavad Gita TEXT 20 asurim yonim apanna mudha janmani janmani mam aprapyaiva kaunteya tato yanty adhamam gatim SYNONYMS asurim--demoniac; yonim--species; apannah--gaining; mudhah--the foolish; janmani janmani--in birth after birth; mam--unto Me; aprapya--without achieving; eva--certainly; kaunteya--O son of Kunti; tatah--thereafter; yanti--goes; adhamam--condemned; gatim--destination. TRANSLATION Attaining repeated birth amongst the species of demoniac life, such persons can never approach Me. Gradually they sink down to the most abominable type of existence.

Whatever the solution - the problem must be admitted. ISKCON as an organization isn't working. I just go to the temple in LA and it's obvious. The morale is lower than karmis. It makes material life look good. Somehow I don't think that's what Prabhupada intended. Yah there's moments where friends act goofy, make friends with guests who are like them - but that's what it is - friendship based on material attraction. Taking it to the spiritual level just doesn't seem to work - it's just no fun.

First what do you understand by meditation? Sitting in a particular posture 'asana' and focusing the mind? The mind needs something to focus on and traditionally mantras (literally 'mind releaser') have been used for that purpose. I have found the Maha Mantra - 'Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna, Krishna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama, Rama, Hare Hare' to be very effective.

Just a casual search for 'atheist' on youtube and you'll find so many atheist videos and comments rallying around Dawkins and others like Christopher Hitchens. They ride the crest of an 'atheist revival' in the popular culture. The main strategy is to invoke science as proof of materialism. If you know anything about science, you will understand that such philosophical questions are outside its scope of interest.

The only way one gets bhakti is through the inconceivable mercy of Krsna and the usual way one gets the inconceivable mercy of Krsna is through the greater mercy of his pure devotee. Organizations have nothing to do with it.

Without the assurance of Caitya guru in the heart, sastra and sadhu the whole guru issues is scary as hell. Can you say Jim Jones.

Thanks. That's a consolation. I think.

ISKCON identifies diksa with a fire sacrifice even when it's by a fallen guru. A friend of mine was initiated by Rameswara (Robert Grant) up to brahmana. He never chanted gayatri and doesn't take the diksa seriously anymore. But the temple devotees still treat him like he's initiated. I on the other hand did not fall for this guru and am treated second class because I didn't get the phoney diksa.

I agree that change has to come from the grass roots. It takes a lot of commitment as most of all - purity - to overcome the corruption at the top. I've always said that, at least in a democracy - power is given - not taken. None of these misleaders could mislead if nobody followed.

The formal diksa mania is on. It is a religious - not a transcendantal obsession. It generates cheaters and unqualified kanisthas who are quite happy to stage a fire sacrifice for the seva and the daksina all in the name of parampara. What a collosal joke.

The details of VAD are available to anybody who can read. Its practical realities are available to anybody who has been excluded by elite castes or abused in an authoritarian hierarchy of power.

That's nice on paper, but it simply isnt' 'good' when it has been practiced either in India or ISKCON. Need I recite the history of its evils ?