cbrahma

Ah, the real issue surfaces. ISKCON vs G. Math. I these camps really knew how much their bickering reduces their credibility as spiritual leaders.

The devil quotes scripture. One can be expert at playing scriptures off against one another. However out of Prabhupada's mouth Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back. Prabhupada: No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, ‘Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man,’ I’ll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I’ll never become.” Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108 (San Francisco, February 18, 1967) <?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O:P></O:P> Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return? Prabhupada: Yes. Paramahamsa: Fall down? Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice,Yes," Krsna says, "yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?” Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 (Los Angeles)<O:P></O:P> Translator: The question is: did we fall in this material world to find some highest pleasure? His question is: did we fall in the material world to experience something which is higher? Prabhupada: I do not follow. Yogesvara: I think his question is the husband will leave the wife because he is dissatisfied. But if our love for Krsna originally is perfect why should we have left? Prabhupada: YOU HAVE LEFT... Just like somebody is daily eating puris and halava, and he wants to eat also puffed rice. So that tendency is there. That is also a side of enjoyment. ‘I am eating daily this, let me eat this.’ What is the difficulty? That tendency is there. That is also enjoyment. After all, we are hankering after enjoyment, anandamayo 'bhyasat. So, different taste we desire, that, "Let me taste this, let me taste that, let me taste that." So the real basic principle is enjoyment, sense enjoyment. That's all." Bhagavada-gita Lecture August 5, 1976 (Paris) <O:P></O:P>

This topic goes deeper than the manifest issue of fall-down. The amount of hair-splitting, voluminous rants and non sequitur tells me its more political than logical. The fall/sleep belief is associated with ISKCON. That apparently is enough.

The approach to the theology of monism as held by Sri Vaisnavas and Ramanuja is different. Sri Vaisnavas propose that ultimate Reality, although one, is not Absolute without any differentiation. They admit the reality of the world and the plurality of souls within this world. The world appears real because it is real and not due to some form of illusion (maya) as Sankara proposes. Accordingly Ramanuja teaches three fundamental categories of Reality: God (isvara), soul (cit), and matter (acit). On the basis of the principle of organic relation he upholds that ultimate Reality is one as a unity. God, as the creator of the world, is the immanent ground or inner soul of existence. God sustains and controls both the individual souls as well as matter. Soul and matter are dependant on God for their very existence and are organically related to God in the same way as the physical body is related to the soul within. The oneness of Reality is understood not in the sense of absolute identity, but as an organic unity. Though there is absolute difference between God and the other two categories of Reality, and for that matter between soul and matter, ultimate Reality is considered one because as an organic unity it is one. In this sense Ramanuja's philosophy may be defined as "oneness of the organic unity" (visistadvaita). More commonly visistadvaita is translated as "differentiated" monism (visistadvaita) as opposed to Sankara's absolute monism (advaita)." -Sampradaya Sun So 'monism' is a slippery word not usually associated with pluralism (individuality of atomic souls). This is a semantic razor's edge.

I've read works by previous acaryas such as Bhaktivinoda Thakura and find no suggestions of monism but rather a severe condemnation of it as exemplified by the Mayavadi school of thought.

Relevance?

Right. So Prabhupada's transcendental slogan - means -going back to the brahmajyoti. Obviously that was his mission.

At last, the refreshing voice of clarity and reason.

"Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa"

"Of course, everyone has a particular relationship</I> with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But, in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten</I> the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord</I>. Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive</I> that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi--perfection of one's constitutional position</I>." -Introduction to Bhagavad-gita As It Is</U> Forgetting one's svarupa - What? from the brahmajyoti? I think not.

What I don't get, is if one can fall down from Goloka Vrndavana then the same argument against practicing impersonal jnani yoga can be leveled against bhakti yoga. - that is one can fall down. (regardless of why). On the other, there is something really arbitrary about how some jivas just happen to be eternally situated with Krsna and others are not.

False. There is no abuse. A direct quote. Without semantic interpretation. You abuse. "... However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world...’ This is what Prabhupada said. Note the words 'fall down'. You are saying he's wrong?

Because you say so on their behalf? I'm not playing semantics. No so easy. I have read the Caitanya-siksamrta and there is no evidence for what you say.

You're running with the word 'peacefully'. That doesn't necessarily imply neutrality. Nor does it mean impersonal. One has to be conflictual to be personal?

Somewhat arbitrary wouldn't you say? How do you account for ‘The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.’ (Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport) Prabhupada is simply wrong?

I'm not sure what the point is. That Kirtananda was asked to become spiritual master? No. That's simply false. That Kirtananda didn't want to take sanyassa - Well he took it up. That was the risk? The damage was done primarily when he deviated during his Zonal Guru phase. He didn't just take that risk - he seized it forcibly. The video is K. chanting Hare Krsna - Hopefully he keeps doing that.

"The chanting of Hare Krsna is our main business, that is real initiation. And as you are all following my instruction, in that matter, the initiator is already there." (SP Letter to Tamal Krsna, 19/8/68)

" the mercy of the Bar " - hardly the kind of mercy needed to get bhakti. hmmm -- it's a performance test - then where's the mercy? "If one can't find an accredited law school" The analogy is really limping at this point. Maybe it's time to accept the assurances of the informal path which dispenses with the 'training' analogy- so well documented in fact.

If you can find an accredited law school. The analogy of course fails in the extent that bhakti is not the direct result of an examination but of Krsna's mercy.

Regardless of the relevance.

Temple management run tandem with Enron in the matter of corporate ethics.

I have to admit that is one area where New Dwaraka seems to be holding firm. The Deity service is kept up nicely. On the other hand, the 'chew-em-up-and-spit-em-out' mentality is certainly there, especially when a senior devotee's health, (or anybody's health for that matter) begins to fail over an extended period of time. More reason for staying in the work force.

"The chanting of Hare Krsna is our main business, that is real initiation. And as you are all following my instruction, in that matter, the initiator is already there." (SP Letter to Tamal Krsna, 19/8/68)

The Sri Namamrita is full of quotes that never mention diksa as a preqrequisite. The issue of formal diksa is a whole thread in itself. I haven't seen to much success from it.

So how do jivas get enslaved in Maya?