cbrahma

I know you didn't ask me, but it's about Bhagavad Gita 9 32 by Prabhupada. NM is saying Prabhupada's translation is just plain wrong. This is offense. I've come across this video before and was going to post it, but thought better because I would have all the NM disciples down my throat shouting apharada. Of course in this case it's NM committing the apharada.

Formal diska - the fire sacrifice, the public vows - is a formality by definition. It is a ceremony. Diska , real diksa of initiation process is NOT a formality and can occur according to Prabhupada without the formality. According to triple dot this is 'twisting'. How many times do I have to quote this before it's admitted? It's black and white - no twisting or equivocation needed. At least I'm quoting the spiritual master. and again

And the so-called first initiation isn't really diksa according to most of the initiates who post here. Gayatri diksa is the true diksa. That first one is definitely not necessary since it is a convention Prabhupada himself began.

But Mahak claims that Prabhupada always knew his disciples personally. Well that's not exactly true because in some cases he took the temple president's recommendation when he initiated by ritvik.

A clear example of one 'bona fide' guru (NM ) blaspheming a pure devotee. O to have diksa now that Kali Yuga is here.

can't wait to find a guru who claims to be in a sampradaya so I can get my fire sacrifice. Then I can talk off the top of my head and make special knowledge claims to lord it over everybody who 's not a member. I don't even need the support of quoting authority - that's for lazies. There are so many in the market, I'm sure I can get one if the price is right.

Goodness, that's impressive. It's the fire ritual, I'm sure.

I don't need to pretend or twist. That is your wishful thinking. I have Prabhupada's very words pure and simple, which you keep evading providing no support at all from any source, except your own illustrious self. Yes you are puffed up - making grandiose speculation about my sanga as an excuse for your religionism - and you call yourself a Vaisnava ? That's a good one.

You have a lot of nerve speculating what my sanga has been. I have had plenty of association with devotees which is why I know that formal diska is not the end all and be all and why I know you are a puffed up religionist. I don't need to cling to isolated statements since the statements Prabhupada has made both about vani being superior to vapu and the secondary importance of formal diksa are numerous. Reading Prabhupada's book is associating with the book bhagavata. You are even ignorant of that principle. In fact you reveal yourself ignorant of the fundamentals of spiritual knowledge, a wonderful demonstration of the inadequacy of formal diksa.

So those who are too late to have Prabhupada accept them formally are not formal members of a parampara and therefore cannot be successful. This in spite of the fact that he has repeatedly been cited as saying that formal diska is not necessary as well as saying that not everybody has to become brahmana (the 'real diksa'). Here is another lazy quote So Prabhupada is being offensive? Also regarding the church-y institutional membership idea

I take that to signify the qualifications of an initiating guru. He also said the formal diska was not so important. I have numerous quotations on this thread to that effect.

I see. So you have to get a membership card so that you can do independant study that anybody could do without it. You have an institutional/religious concept of Vaisnavism which is not that of the sampradaya to which Prabhupada belonged.

Not so. I have quoted his instructions over and over again on this point. His practice varied according to time and circumstance and included ritvik initiations and he even suggested that some do not get brahminical initiation. You are in danger of accusing him of not practicing what he preaches. But I wouldn't put that past you.

Don't argue with slogans. This has nothing to do with ISKCON and everything to do with Prabhupada's instructions.

The teachings are available without formal admittance. What is this so-called school?

When you are learning from somebody, it is hardly blind faith. So now you endorse independant learning in the same breath as formal diksa. How strange. I don't want to restart those other topics. This is a thread about diksa and Prabhupada's instructions on the subject. You can endlessly dodge firm instructions by constantly throwing them up to question against this text or that guru, or that sadhu. If that guru truly belongs to the sampradaya what is the need?

If you find yourself continually 'checking' your diksa guru's teachings after he has initiated you - then where is your commitment - your surrender to him as your initiator. When you take a class, if you are constantly checking your teacher against other teachers why bother taking the class from that teacher? Very offensive.

Bogus. What is in? The beginning of a learning process. The real learning takes place afterwards - that is what siksa is all about. I have quoted this several times and it still hasn't sunk in. Formality means external. Formality means mere ritual. There is nothing magical about it. That is the understanding of a child.

Apparently you don't understand analogy. If admission is formality then so is the diksa initation ritual.

Don't try to implicate traditionalism into this. On questions Prabhupada's teachings conform perfectly with his spiritual master and his spiritual master before him.

Yes I guess you could call it simple - simple arrogance.

Prabhupada is the guru - o wise and all-knowing sadhu. I don't want to start another thread on that topic. But the Moon business is the least of the instructions that you re-interpret according to your puffed up religionist needs.

Which you clearly don't even acknowledge when it's quoted to you. I don't need your superior 'explanation' of his vani, either. It speaks for itself. Puffed up religionists are sooooo funny.

Speaking on the behalf of all Vaisnavas, claiming your formal initiation gives you knowledge inaccessible to the uninitiated, trying to second quess Prabhupada's intention. Ignoring Prabhupada's instructions in favor of unsubstantiated claims to higher knowledge. Calling people who don't accept your religionist stance - sudras Clinging desperately to your diska status as a position of religious superiority. to name but a few... To name a few.

Yah like systematically ignoring or trying to explain away Prabhupada's statements.