cbrahma

Well I don't know how isolated one has to be. Is it really a choice between being a hermit or being an institutional gumba-slave? Somehow the sanga has to be there. True- reading the books is sanga, but there has to be some Vaisnava out there who isn't trying to control you, squeeze every drop of service and resources from you, and who isn' t just a kanishta material devotee. If not, that is a pretty sad state of affairs and speaks eloquently against the religious process.

Very nice heartfelt and complete response.

The whole perception of my being anti-diksa because I don't capitulate to the religious arrogance of 'I got a fire sacrifice so I'm in' mentality is, alright I'll say it,anti-Prapbhada. As far as I'm concerned that's what GM is. And I refuse to copy those incontrovertible quotes again.

I have not put svu on ignore, though I might as well since his statements are best ignored. His advice is so asiddhantic the wiser folks like theist avoid hearing that philosophy.

However, it isn't the formal diksa that accomplishes the change of varna. That is more magical thinking and not what Prabhupada taught. Regarding NM, I haven't said anything on my own behalf. Simply repeating what is the case and what I have experienced directly from his disciples. You, on the other hand, have no problem questioning Prabhupada's teachings.

He didn't want his disciples to be PROUD of their initiation. And again the formal diksa was not the important thing according to him. The offensive disciples are those who take the formality as something to be lording over others. False prestige, name , fame and distinction are material. This degrades the discipleship and insults Prabhupada directly. I've more often seen these so-called sadhakas become envious of those who advance spirituallly and pleased when they can condescend to those who are not members.

Please do not call Prabhupada's purport nonsense.

Of course that's not you, since you got yourself a fire sacrifice from a fallen guru. This is the Western world in Kali-Yuga. The classic Vedic system is not even in place in India at this time. Get serious. Everybody in Kali-Yuga is born sudra or lower.

On this forum there are so many interests and concerns expressed. So many different factions and claims to exclusive authority. But what are the chances of understanding God and developing a relationship with Him? Prabhupada has been quoted as saying 'Religion is learning how to love God' The process is simple is it not? It is indeed the religion of the age - the yuga dharma Also there can be no controversy - about this or that organization - this or that guru.

I need to jump in here. The GM disciples, regardless of their gurus are very hot on the physical guru issue as indeed are ISKCON disciples. The reason for this is political - get more disciples , increase your power base. Prabhupada, however, though he wanted trained up brahmanas for arcana was very merciful and allowed everybody to engage at their own pace and inclination, not insisting that one 'shave up'. He was truly a krpa-sindhu , an ocean of mercy. His lectures are full of references , as you well know, about how vani is as good as vapu.

He left ISKCON to develop his own business for a while. .He was not well liked among his Godbrothers. I interviewed for a job with him and he made that complaint.

♣♣♣ is competing on the basis of 'my sanga is better than your sanga' neener neener. ...or my devotional position is higher than your devotional position. - any value that could be gained on the spiritual path is lost in this egotistical competitive mentality. This should be so obvious and fundamental if one has had any training at all. It's like boasting one is a mathematician and not being able to add.

When I say I was in the temple 'under', that doesn't mean I was their disciple. I was an unitiated bhramacari. I remain uninitiated to this day, thank God.

You tried to establish formal diksa as an absolute requirement for engagement in Krsna consciousness. Nothing Prabhupada said proves this. Also, it as nothing to do with it being 'too much'. What's a fire sacrifice cost? It has to do with 1. separating the religion from the spiritual process. 2. the paucity of bona fide acaryas. So much for the exclusivistic power-centric claims of the religionist. somebody called kula-pavana posted this.

You are trapped in your own ignorant speculation. I lived as a brahmacari in the Winnipeg temple under Rocana dasa and later on in New Dwarka under Gopala bhata and then Rameswara. I also saw Prabhupad in Chicago. Nevertheless you will continue to fabricate what suits your purpose being a puffed up religionist. BTW no mental speculation is one of the regulative principles - or did they forget to mention that during your fire ritual. As far as twisting is concerned, I've said a dozen times Prabhupada's statements speak clearly and unambiguously for themselves. I quote him. You do not.

Exactly - diksa is a process. Whose talking about Vedic rituals? This is Kali Yuga. This begs the question of formal initiation and since this must mean brahminical initation, this is clearly out of context and does not address nama-kirtana The operative term here is 'bona fide'. And later on Prabhupada acceded that not all need to have brahminical initiation. But all of these activities go way beyond mere diksa. So diksa is not a requirement for engaging in the most important Vaisnava activity - sravanam, kirtanam - chanting the Holy Name. Nevertheless he used tape recordings. Your point being? I get that formal diksa is formal and that formalities are by their nature only a symbolic religious expression, not absolutely required. Prabhupada's many statements (and there is no 'out of context', their purpose being clear) on the subject that formal diksa is not required still stand and are not overturned since he was clearly not trying to establish the traditional Vedic culture in its entirety, but to push forward the Yuga-dharma which was the instruction of his spiritual master.

We are given the 'Prabhupada said' from the GBC. It was never centralized over a whole continent as it is now. You're engaged in a self-deception on the GM side if you think the GM had no part to play in the guru travesty and the big structured guru-oversight committee.

Like taking formal rituals to be the all and all requirement of spiritual advancement.

That is a lie. The Gaudiya Math were implicated quite seriously in the present system. Prabhupada warned against bureaucracy and centralization. I will not merely state but prove.

Your arrogant claim to private knowledge is noted. Of course. The Emperors Clothes again. And of course that's all you have to bring to the table is your unmanifest supposed understanding. I don't need to ask myself anything. It has already been said by the sastras and Prabhupada. BTW here is the dictionary definition of attribute Under such a definition a name would qualify.

According to Gaudiya-Vaisnava siddhanta - the Holy Name , being an attribute of Krsna is non-different from Him. But suddenly His attribute is limited by forms of reproduction - in fact his own potency? Ridiculous! (material conception)

Exclusivity is the byword for religious institutions. Vedanta , sanatana dharma on the other hand is inclusivistic and non-sectarian. It is not a religion in the strict mundane sense of that word with all the paraphenalia and rites appertaining. On the contrary, it seems that so-called traditionalists want to perpetuate an exclusive institutional 'members-only' concept of Vaisnavism very much like the Catholic Church, or Judaism. I am struck by how similar ISKCON is to a Judao-Christian church/temple, with a tight formal totalitarian control of its members with all the positions and distinctions comparable to bishops, cardinals and rabis. Big hierarchical authority and formal credentials for membership is very church-y and Judao-Christian. Investing the 'magic' in the rituals rather than the underlying spirituality trivializes the spiritual process and invites religiosity. Let's not forget how much the Gaudiya Math contributed to its present ecclesiastical structure - gurus under an umbrella of authority called the GBC. In one word -control. Another word - cheating.

From the purport to that verse in the Bhagavad Gita It can be seen that 'low' is relative. Prabhupada doesn't draw any hard line as to low vs. high. It's all on a continuum. He had said on many occasions,however, that women are less intelligent, a point which NM also contradicts.

One may infer from the strategic comma placed after 'low born' and the 'as well as' that sudras are not low-born.

The attack is hardly that nuanced. NM says it's by 'Swamiji', not 'Swamiji's editors'. He is challenging the idea that women are less intelligent which is something Prabhupada has said in more than this context. It is not an editorial fabrication. In fact this is not the only time NM and/or his disciples have blasphemed Prabhupada. I have personally been at a lecture by one of his disciples where that kind of disrespect was commonplace, the presumption being made that Prabhupada 'didn't know' that women don't get Gayatri initiation.