anadi

Dear theist dandavat pranam,<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> You quoted the verse<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> bhaktis tu bhagavad bhakta saGgena parijAyate | sat-saGga prApyate pumbhiH sukRtaiH pUrva saJcite || (Brihan Naradia Purana 4.33) The inclination for devine devotion is awakened by the association with the devottes of the Lord And the association with the pure devotees (SAT SANGA) <u1:p></u1:p> can be attained by the accumulated effect of SUKRITI (eternal pious activities) performed over uncountable life times.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> And commented<o:p></o:p> No problem. But how did the devotee come to even find the association of devotees in the first place. Obviously by the arrangement of Caitya-guru.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Please bring evidence from the shastra (commentary on shastra is not shastra, or they are themselves supported by shastra).<o:p></o:p>

Dear theist Dandavat pranam, you commented Visvanatha Cakravarti's verse 2.6 from Madhurya-kadambini: <u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p><u2:p></u2:p>"After attaining faith, one takes shelter of a guru and inquires about proper devotional behavior (sad-ācāra). Then, in accordance with the guru’s directions, one attains the fortune of associating with sadhus who are endowed with a similar mood, are affectionate and highly realized in devotional matters." <u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>and said <u1:p></u1:p> Now where did that faith come from? <u2:p></u2:p>It came from Krsna in the heart (Caitya-guru) just like he says in the Gita, <u2:p></u2:p>"I make his faith steady so that he may worship..." <u2:p></u2:p><u2:p></u2:p><u2:p>but</u2:p> <u2:p></u2:p>The evidence you presented from bhagavad-gita 7.21 for Caitya-guru as the giver of transcendental faith – shraddha is not quite proper: <u1:p></u1:p>"Whatever devotee with faith (bhaktaḥ śraddhaya) in some demigod desires to worship him, I surely make his faith steady (acalāḿ śraddhāḿ )." <u1:p></u1:p> than you commented: Yes I know He was speaking there about worship of demigods. Therefore I said in the next line that it is the "same principle" that is at work. <u1:p></u1:p> <u2:p></u2:p><u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p> Dear theist, again dandavat pranam, <u1:p></u1:p>From your reply it seems you didn’t acknowledge, the verse you quoted doesn’t support the principle you stated. <u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>Let’s look how you demonstrated that the verse is supporting your claim: You quoted me :<o:p></o:p> <u1:p></u1:p> <st1:place u3:st="Krishna</st1:place"></st1:place>This verse doesn’t say that <st1:place><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place></st1:place> is the direct giver of the faith.From this verse one can see that previously there was a desire of the bhakta,and a faith which the bhakta had independently … <u2:p></u2:p> <o:p></o:p> And commented: I don't believe it was a faith born independent of Krsna. I don't believe in the notion of independence from Krsna on any level.. … <u1:p></u1:p> But your commentary ignores what the verse is saying. <u1:p></u1:p>Tthe verse from Bhagavad-gita 7.2 doesn't say that Krishna is the giver of faith but the one who strengthened an already existing faith.<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p>

Dear theist Dandavat pranam, you commented Visvanatha Cakravarti's verse 2.6 from Madhurya-kadambini: <?xml:namespace prefix = o /><o:p></o:p> "After attaining faith, one takes shelter of a guru and inquires about proper devotional behavior (sad-ācāra). Then, in accordance with the guru’s directions, one attains the fortune of associating with sadhus who are endowed with a similar mood, are affectionate and highly realized in devotional matters." and said Now where did that faith come from? <o:p></o:p> It came from Krsna in the heart (Caitya-guru) just like he says in the Gita, <o:p></o:p> "I make his faith steady so that he may worship..."<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p>but</o:p> <o:p></o:p> The evidence you presented for Caitya-guru as the giver of transcendental faith – shraddha is not quite proper: <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> yo yo yāḿyāḿ tanuḿ bhaktaḥ śraddhayārcitum icchati |<o:p></o:p> tasya tasyācalāḿ śraddhāḿ tāmeva vidadhāmy aham || (BG.7.21) <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Whatever devotee with faith (bhaktaḥ śraddhaya) in some demigod desires to worship him, I surely make his faith steady (acalāḿ śraddhāḿ ).<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> This verse doesn’t say that Krishna is the direct giver of the faith. From this verse one can see that previously there was a desire of the bhakta, <o:p></o:p> and a faith which the bhakta had independently from <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comKrishna</st1:place> is the direct giver of the faith. <o:p></o:p> <font color=" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s desire. <o:p></o:p> <st1:place w:st="on"><FONT color=black>Krishna</st1:place><FONT color=black> only helps the devotee making his faith stronger, which is something else. <FONT color=black><FONT color=black><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=black><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT color=#222222><FONT face=Verdana><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#222222><FONT face=Verdana>Now, where the transcendental faith come from? <FONT face=Arial><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <FONT face=Arial><FONT color=seagreen><FONT face=Verdana>bhaktis tu bhagavad bhakta saGgena parijAyate | <FONT face=Arial><FONT color=seagreen><FONT face=Verdana>sat-saGga prApyate pumbhiH sukRtaiH pUrva saJcite ||<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana><FONT face=Verdana> (Brihan Naradia Purana 4.33) The inclination for devine devotion is awakened by the association with the devottes of the Lord And the association with the pure devotees (SAT SANGA) <o:p></o:p> <FONT face=Arial><FONT face=Verdana>can be attained by the accumulated effect of SUKRITI (eternal pious activities) performed over uncountable life times. <FONT color=black> <o:p></o:p> <FONT color=black>The meaning is that the desires appear due to one’s association.<o:p></o:p> <FONT color=black>And every one gets the association one deserves, <FONT color=black>i.e. as a reaction of one’s previous deeds, and <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is not responsible for our deeds.<o:p></o:p>

This is not Gaudiya Vaishnava Siddhanta. Visvanatha Cakravarti says in Madhurya-kadambini 2.6 tataś cāśrita-guru-caraṇasya tasya jijñāsyamāna-sad-ācārasya tac-chikṣayaiva sajātīyāśaya-snigdha-bhakty-abhijña-sādhu-saṅga-bhāg-yodayaḥ. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> "After attaining faith, one takes shelter of a guru and inquires about proper devotional behavior (sad-ācāra). Then, in accordance with the guru’s directions, one attains the fortune of associating with sadhus who are endowed with a similar mood, are affectionate and highly realized in devotional matters."<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p>

The glory of hearing about the loving sports of Sri Krishna is narrated in the scriptures. vikrIDitaM vraja-vadhUbhir idaM ca viSNoH | zraddhAnvito yaH zRNuyAd atha varNayed vA || bhaktiM parAM bhagavati parilabhya kAmaM | hRd-rogam Azv apahinoty acireNa dhIraH || (bhag. 10.33.39) “One who faithfully hears or describes the loving sports of Sri Krishna and the young maidens of Vraja will quickly drive away the heart-disease of lust, become sober, and attain supramundane devotion of the Lord.” However, is everyone eligible for hearing such confidential topics, which may invoke thoughts of mundane sexuality in the eyes of an ignorant spectator? kintu rahasya-lIlA tu pauruSa-vikAravad indriyaiH pitR-putra-dAsa-bhAvaiz ca nopAsyA svIya-bhAva-virodhAt | rahasyatvaM ca tasyAH kvacid alpAMzena kvacit tu sarvAMzeneti jJeyam || (Bhakti-sandarbha 338) “However, these secret sports are not to be worshiped by those who experience male transformations in their senses, or by those...

guruvani said: stop demanding God to reveal himself to you and the idea is that one should qualify to see God. The most important point is that, without being qualified to see a particular form of the Lord, you can not see Him , even if He appears in a chariot of fire; you will pull Him into your material conception, proving that it might have been anything else but God. One should qualify to see God. So, here there are some of the preliminary qualifications, as given in our spiritual school of bhakti-yoga in the Gaudyia tradition, by one of the most prominent teachers, Rupa Gosvami, in his Nectar of instruction. One’s attempt to see God begins with learning to control - the impetus of speech - vaco vega - the agitation of the mind - manasa vegam - the onset of anger - krodha vegam - the vehemence of the tongue in tasting things - jihva-vegam - the urge of the belly - udara vegam - upastha vegam - the agitation of the genitals

There is no time we never existed.

As long as one does not experience the knowledge he acquired, his knowledge is called dry. On the spiritual platform his bhajana is lifeless. Direct experience Past-life therapy During the last 25 years past-life therapy has evolved into an independent form of psychotherapy with its own models and techniques. We owe the development of this therapy especially to Netherton, Dethlefsen and in the Netherlands Ten Dam (Bontenbal, 1985). According to the author they have developed specific methods for induction, coaching, integrating and transforming methods, with a focus on the responsibility for and understanding of the client for his own process. On the basis of the insights of Ten Dam, Netherton and Dethlefsen the Dutch School of Past-Life Therapy (SRN) has developed a model for therapy, 'the Holographic Model', described by Bontenbal (1985). Past-life therapy can be described as 'a form of psychotherapy which uses regression to, or fantasies about previous lives. Fantasies about the past are used as though they concern possible historical reality' (Cladder, 1983, p.172). Bontenbal (1985) mentions the basic assumption of past-life therapy: 'problems, whether they are primarily experienced mentally, emotionally, physically or spiritually have their basis in undigested experiences and these experiences can be located, exposed and released by reliving them consciously' (p.5). Ten Dam (1989) describes past-life therapy as 'regression therapy which accepts that by reliving situations which caused the initial trauma, experiences obviously stemming from past lives and even afterdeath and prebirth experiences appear' (p.9). Past-life therapy is also defined as a form of psychotherapy which distinguishes itself from most other forms of psychotherapy, because apart from the clients current life memories, birth and prenatal phase included, which appear during the therapeutic process, also those memories of so- called [the author has some fear in using the therm]past lives are regarded as material suitable for therapeutic treatment (Van der Maesen, 1995). One of the institutes for past-life therapy operating in the Netherlands is the School for Past-Life Therapy (SRN). Graduates of this two-year course can become members of the Dutch Association of Past-Life Therapy (NVRT) (150 members currently). source: http://www.reincarnatietherapie.nl/daptgtsc.html Check this too. http://scholar.google.com/scholar%3Fq%3DReincarnation+regression+past+live+therapy+%26hl%3Dde%26oi%3Dscholart

PramANa or evidence is the means to determine the authenticity of an object (gross or subtle). PramAtA yenArthaM pramiNoti tad eva pramANam. Srimat JIva GosvAmIpAda writes in Sarva-saMvAdinI: yadyapi pratyakSAnumAna-zabdArSopamANArthApatty-abhAva-sambhavaitihya-ceSTAkhyAni daza pramANAni viditAni, tathApi bhrama-pramAda-vipralipsA-karaNApATava-doSa-rahita-vacanAtmakaH zabda eva mUla-pramANam – “Generally there are ten types of evidence, namely pratyakSa, anumAna, zabda, ArSa, upamAna, arthApatti, abhAva, sambhava, aitihya, and ceSTA. zabda, or zruti, however, is accepted as the most authentic evidence because it is free from the four defects of bhrama (illusion), pramAda (confusion), vipralipsA (cheating) and karaNApATava (defect of the senses). We will briefly explain how the other nine types of evidence are not wholly dependable. PratyakSa: The knowledge directly perceived by the five sense organs, namely eye, ear, tongue, nose, and skin, and the mind, is known as pratyakSa. The knowledge perceived through these senses can never be reliable because of the above mentioned four defects of delusion, imperfect senses, etc. The reality of an object cannot thus be known by pratyakSa. For example, a magician makes things that do not exist in reality appear real to the senses. How can transcendental things then be proven through the material senses? AnumAna: According to nyAya-zAstras, knowledge inferred from our common observations is known as anumAna. The usual example given is girir vahnimAn dhUmAt, “Since I see smoke on the mountain, I can infer that it is on fire.” We have all seen, “Where there is smoke, there is fire.” Thus when we see smoke coming from behind the mountain we presume that there is a fire on the mountain. But since smoke may also be visible even after the fire has been extinguished by rain, the above presumption is faulty. AnumAna or presumption is thus also defective. ArSa: The sayings of the sages (RSis) are known as ArSa. Due to the differences in the theories of different sages, ArSa is also unacceptable as a valid pramANa.

Dear bija, dandavat pranam, I would like to say only a few words regarding pitambara and the ortodox Gaudiya Vaishnavism. <o:p></o:p> Pitambara... visited a saint, and ...he said he took babaji vesha (accepted renounciation state),... but his deeds are not conform to babaji vesh - renounciation state ... and<o:p></o:p> he said he got siddha pranali and was revealed his manjari form, but in his „sadhana” he acts as Krishna (under the guise of guru seva, in his sadhaka deha) and seeks a young woman which should be qualified as Radha, to have sexual intercourse with her. ...I am crazy about Krishna , and more so Radha. . And many people being in touch with me have fallen in love with her too. When I am in this male body, I feel Krishna making love and understand him, how he feels<st1:place w:st="Krishna</st1:place">, and more so Radha. And many people being in touch with me have fallen in love with her too. When I am making love in this male body, I feel <st1:place w:st=" /><st1:place w:st=" on="">Krishna</st1:place> making </st1:place>making love and understand him, how he feels. <o:p></o:p> (Quite obvious he is no avadhuta, as his followers pretend as he identifies himself with a male body.)<o:p></o:p> I cry for my Radha, I have a girl who is so high in qualities, and these tears are prema...<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Either he doesn’t know the meaning of manjaris' bhava ullasa, or he is a cheater … or ... <o:p></o:p> A manjari never feels <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> making love, what to say of making love …to Krishna. <o:p></o:p> Certainly pitambara doesn’t follow the ortodox Gaudiya Vaishnavism as taught by Rupa, Sanatana and Raghunata Gosvami, which are renunciation personified, and is twisting the words of shastra (in many parts of his posting)... to justify his dealings.<o:p></o:p>

Dear bija Dandavat pranam you said: <o:p></o:p>just days back I read some content of Pitambara dasa. Threads can be found at gaudiya discussions. I do not wish to offend any devotee but I must question his approach. Using drugs and sex in his practice. And his claim to be a reincarnation of Jesus. I am not sure if you are aware of such things. …<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> but one should follow the saint not a drug addict or one who proclaims himself Jesus, and Even a drug addict and a wako, may come to the saint. The story describes a saint not a drug addict. <o:p></o:p> I don’t know if that pitambara dasa, that went to take vesha (renunciation) and pranali (revealing of the spiritual form(s)) from Sacidulal Babaji thought of himself of being Jesus, or was a drug addict. <o:p></o:p> And I don’t know if after the undertaken initiation, under the circumstances he would have taken drugs and thought he would be Jesus, he was still thinking he was Jesus or continued taking drugs. These are anyway not so important... .one should not talk about the garbage, one should see the beauty, and beauty will follow her. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p>

You know all this things, so you need to find the saint that will teach you how to chant more and more rounds... and to read about and meditate during your continous chanting on the dealings of the divine couple ... this is somehow kama-anunga bhakti part of the raga-anuga bhakti.

Dear bija, dandavat pranam, Sometimes we forget this aspiration and still pretend we are engaged in bhakti, doing no bhakti.... Bhakti is a fuction of divine love.

What can I say, my spiritual background would be the saints of Vraja, especially the babajis of Radha kund, the ones who associate with them, and than all other more of less seekers of divine love in that form the manjaris have for the divine couple. If I say only one of them, or one organization, I may hurt somebody's feelings.

Dear bija, respectful dandavat here it is An introduction to Manjari-bhava Oh Mukunda, giver of liberation! Who in the world is there with the courage to pray for the gift of sacred love, of which the slightest manifestation, when brushing against the minds of the great sages, makes them forget the happiness of liberation? My prayer therefore for You is this: that I should simply desire for such prema, and that this desire should increase forever, in this world, birth after birth. Those self-satisfied sages, who are directly experiencing the happiness of liberation (salvation form the bondage of their own desires, and reactions of their own deeds, that keeps one bound to the material world), immediately becomes indeffernt to that pleasure simply pon coming into contact with fractionally germianted seed of prema ; what person is there in this world so bold that would beg for such a wealth? I, therefore, am praying only that always, in every one of my lives, I should remain forgetful of all else and thirst for it in the way that a fish plucked from a pond craves for a return to water, as a cataka bird thirsts for the appearance of a cloud, or the fabled cakora seeks the moon. Brahma-ananda is the name given to the joy found in the transcendentalist's relization of universal spiritual identity. This pleasure is so highly lauded by its proponents that it is said to make all worldly pleasure, even that of being an emperor or unversal creator, like the first being in the universe: Brahma, appear completely insignificant. Yet this brahma-ananda itself becomes an object of scorn for one who has attained the fortune of getting even the slightest scent of divine love (krishna prema). Prema is therefore the ultimate goal of life, or prayojana tattva - the goal of one's spiritual endeavor, sadhana bhakti.

KRSNa the original Lord of love or KAma-deva The following important verse is found in the BhAgavata PurANa: jayati jananivAso devakI-janma-vAdo yadu-vara-pariSat svair dorbhir asyann adharmam sthira-cara-vrijina-ghnam susmita-zrI-mukhena vraja-pura-vanitAnAM vardhayan kAma-devam BhP 10.90.48 May that KRSNa who resides in the hearts of all living beings be ever victorious; for though He is their resting place, He becomes manifested in the womb of DevakI. [This is thus generally accepted as being the truth although it is only an appearance.] That Lord is served by the best of the members of the Yadu dynasty; he removed the influence of the irreligious with the help of the PANDavas and others who are like his own arms, killing all the demons through them. He removed the sufferings of all the moving and non-moving creatures and, by the glances from his softly smiling, beautiful face, caused the quickening of desire (kAma) in the hearts and minds of the womenfolk of the pastures [of Vraja] and the city [of DvArakA], who thus desired for romantic intrigues with him. This verse has been elucidated in SanAtana’s commentary on his own BRhad-BhAgavatAmRta (2.7.154). He particularly elaborates at length on the use of the word kAma-devam found in the fourth line. [This verse makes three apparently self-contradictory statements. The first of these is that] he who resides as the Supersoul in the hearts of all living beings has appeared in the womb of DevakI as her son; for others he remains within, unseen. Though he likewise remains within DevakI also, he externalizes himself and walks and talks with her. [The next apparent contradiction is that though] the great powerful heroes of the House of Yadu were all fully dedicated servitors of his and were competent to destroy any number of unruly opponents, He himself removed the oppressive irreligious elements by the strength of his own arms. [The third such statement is that] even though He removes the sins of all creatures, stationary or moving, He still acts as the paramour of the gopIs, increasing their lusty desires (kAma), i.e., their “sin.” Despite this appearance of contradiction, there is actually none: there is no offence on KRSNa’s part because it is the nature of His sweetly smiling beautiful face to set the minds of others aflame. Even so, the gopIs count the glories of his world-enchanting smile, which destroys the effects of material desire (kAma) in the life of family attachments. This last portion of the verse (vardhayan kAma-devam) can also be taken in this way: “He has become victorious by manifesting in the hearts of the gopIs all those manifold desires that will bring about his own personal pleasure” or “He becomes victorious over material desire (kAma) by increasing the gopis’ divine love (kAma) for him.” Lust or material desire (kAma) is said to be the destroyer of all honorable intentions in life, yet for the gopIs this lust is the destroyer of the cycle of material existence (saMsAra). This is because it is in fact love (prema); it brings KRSNa under their control and thus becomes the fruit of devotion as well as liberation. It became newer and fresher at every moment until it reached its transcendental climax. In other words, zrI KRSNa manifested himself in the hearts of the gopIs in an uninterrupted series of ever-new blossoming appearances, enkindling this love-lust of theirs to ever newer and greater heights. This is the way in which He establishes His glories. Furthermore, because kAma or lust when related to KRSNa becomes elevated to the highest and most perfect type of love, the word deva used in the verse in composition with kAma indicates its divine nature. On the other hand, the word deva is derived from the root div which has the meaning “to play,” implying that this kAma is not nocuous like the destructive desire of this material world, but is full of sportive amusements.

oh, very nice of you, and Krishna, ... and Mahaprabhu In this thread I got to the point where the discussion attained Radha's love. Here they are some more insights on this level: With His own hands Krishna completed a verse of Gita Govinda with the words dehi pādapallavam udāram “Radhe give Me your generous lotusfeet!” It is as if Krishna said to the poet Jayadeva: “O Jayadeva! Why are you hesitating to write this down? My whole life is fulfilled when I attain these lotusfeet! Who elseknows how to love but She? The whole world says: “Give, give”, only She says: “Take, take!”. In Caitanya Caritamritta Adi-lila 4.87 it is said: kṛṣṇa-vāñchā-pūrti-rūpa kare ārādhane ataeva 'rādhikā' nāma purāṇe vākhāne What Radha -'rādhikā does- kare is worship -ārādhane in the perfect form pūrti-rūpa satisfying the desires of Krishna- kṛṣṇa-vāñchā therefore - ataeva (She) is called -nāma (as such) in the Puranas - purāṇe. She is the Queen of the Kunja-cottage, who makes eager Syama enjoy so much, as if He is a begger getting a meal in the royal palace. Sri Rāghunātha dāsa says:

Yes, I like to learn bhakti. I learn from you too. You don't learn from me. Sorry, I don't have the skils. Don't stop, please. A kick in the a... is a step forward.

<table class="quote" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="1" width="90%"><tbody><tr><td class="quote_user" align="left">Zitat:</td></tr><tr><td class="quote" align="left">Prabhupada: Karma means fruitive work. Just like you are laboring for some wages. You get your wages. Similarly, this material world our work is rewarded. Good work is rewarded with good benefit and bad work is punished. This is the law of karma.</td></tr></tbody></table> Well, this definition of karma is not accurate, and may be quite confusing. Bhagavan Sri Krishna says that there are three types of activities: Karma, vikarma and akarma. karmaṇo hy api boddhavyaḿ / boddhavyaḿ ca vikarmaṇaḥ akarmaṇaś ca boddhavyaḿ / gahanā karmaṇo gatiḥ (Bhagavat-gita 4.17) Karma, vikarma and akarma should be distinctively understood, because the karmic principle is profound. Any type of these activities bear fruits, or are fruitive,… but not all are karma. So, to say only that “Karma means fruitive work ” is not entirely correct, because it doesn’t say anything about 1. the quality of the activity and 2. the quality of the fruit. According to Sri Krishna, the quality of karma is that entails activities executed according varna-ashrama dharma: cātur-varṇyaḿ mayā sṛṣṭaḿ / guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ tasya kartāram api māḿ / viddhy akartāram avyayam Bhagavat-gita 4.13 According to one's own qulities (guna) and the work (karma) associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable. and the quality of the fruit of karma is that pleases the Supreme Lord Hari, as stated in Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.13 ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā / varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya / saḿsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam O best among the twice-born, one achieves the highest perfection (saMsiddhir) by discharging the duties prescribed for one's own occupation according to social divisions (varNa) and religious orders of life (ashrama) thus pleasing (toSaNam) the Supreme Lord (Hari – the Well Wisher of His devotees) In this connection Srila Rupa Gosvami talking about karmis says: karmibhyaḥ parito hareḥ priyatayā vyaktiḿ yayur jñāninas tebhyo jñāna-vimukta-bhakti-paramāḥ premaika-niṣṭhās tataḥ tebhyas tāḥ paśu-pāla-pańkaja-dṛśas tābhyo 'pi sā rādhikā preṣṭhā tadvad iyaḿ tadīya-sarasī tāḿ nāśrayet kaḥ kṛtī More dear - priyatayā than the karims- karmibhya to the Lord - hareḥ in all respects – parito have attained – yayur distinction - vyaktiḿ the brahma jnanis – jñāninas. So, as one can see, karmis are dear to Lord and this refers to the ones who follow varna-ashrama dharma, and in this way pleasing Him. The other persons whose activities are vikarma or akarma cannot be classified as karmis. Karma follows naimitk dharma - the duties according one's acquired material nature (not the eternal nature of the soul - nitya dharma), karma refers to vedic ocupational duty according the social class (varna) and vedic spiritual order (ashram). Additional explanation regarding nitya-dharma An object is called a vastu, and its eternal nature is known as its nitya-dharma. Nature arises from the elementary structure of an object (ghatana). By Krishna’s desire , when an object is formed, a particular nature is inherent in that structure as an eternal concomitant factor. This nature is the nitya-dharma of the object. “The nature of a given object becomes altered or distorted when a change takes place within it, either by force of circumstance, or due to contact with other objects . With the passage of time, this distorted nature becomes fixed, and appears to be permanent, as if it were the eternal nature of that object. This distorted nature is not the svabhäva (true nature); it is called nisarga, that nature which is acquired through long-term association. This nisarga occupies the place of the factual nature, and becomes identified as the svabhäva. “The svabhva - true nature of an object is its nitya-dharma (eternal function), while its acquired nature is its naimittika-dharma (occasional function). Those who have true knowledge of objects (vastu-jnana) can know the difference between eternal and occasional function, whereas those who lack this knowledge consider acquired nature to be true nature, and they consequently mistake the temporary dharma for eternal dharma .” “The word vastu is derived from the Sanskrit verbal root vas, which means ‘to exist’, or ‘to dwell’. The verbal root becomes a noun when the suffix tu is added. Therefore, vastu means ‘that which has existence or which is self-evident. There are two types of vastu: västava and avästava. The term ‘truly abiding substance’, västava -vastu, refers to that which is grounded in transcendence. Temporary objects, avästava-vastu, are dravya (solid objects), guna (qualities), and so on. Real objects have eternal existence. Unreal objects only have a semblance of existence, which is sometimes real and sometimes unreal. “It is said in the Srimad-Bhägavatam (1.1.2) vedyam vastavam atra vastu sivadam Only a truly abiding substance, which is related to the Supreme Absolute Truth and which yields supreme auspiciousness is worthy of being known

dear cbrahma you said: You have not really answered my question.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Well, it might be that I answered. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> You asked:<o:p></o:p> How is varnashrama to be practiced now in the West in Kali Yuga?<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> My answer was that we should not practice varna-ashrama dharma (neither in the West nor elsewhere) , because we are the followers of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and He rejected this type of perfection of life, saying that it is external, namely has nothing to do with the true nature of the soul – nitya dharma.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> In this connection Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu use to chant like this:<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> naham vipro na ca nara-patir napi vaisyo na sudro naham varni na ca grha-patir no vanastho yatir va kintu prodyan-nikhila-paramananda-purnamrtabdher gopi-bhartuh pada-kamalayor dasa-dasanudasah<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> <!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t75" coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="75" o:preferrelative="t" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" filled="f" stroked="f"> <v:stroke joinstyle="miter"/> <v:formulas> <v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"/> <v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"/> <v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"/> <v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"/> <v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"/> <v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"/> <v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"/> <v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"/> <v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"/> <v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"/> <v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"/> <v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"/> </v:formulas> <v:path o:extrusionok="f" gradientshapeok="t" o:connecttype="rect"/> <o:lock v:ext="edit" aspectratio="t"/> </v:shapetype><v:shape id="_x0000_i1025" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt; height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="file:///C:\DOKUME~1\Emil\LOKALE~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.gif" o:href=" "/> </v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]--><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_i1026" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="file:///C:\DOKUME~1\Emil\LOKALE~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.gif" o:href=" "/> </v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]--><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_i1027" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="file:///C:\DOKUME~1\Emil\LOKALE~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.gif" o:href=" "/> </v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]--><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_i1028" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="file:///C:\DOKUME~1\Emil\LOKALE~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.gif" o:href=" "/> </v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]-->"I am not a brahmana , I am not a ksatriya I am not a vaisya or a sudra. <o:p></o:p> <!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_i1029" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="file:///C:\DOKUME~1\Emil\LOKALE~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.gif" o:href=" "/> </v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]--><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_i1030" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="file:///C:\DOKUME~1\Emil\LOKALE~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.gif" o:href=" "/> </v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]--><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_i1031" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="file:///C:\DOKUME~1\Emil\LOKALE~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.gif" o:href=" "/> </v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]-->Nor am I a brahmacari, a householder, a vanaprastha, or a sannyasi. <o:p></o:p> I identify myself only as the servant of the servant of the servant <o:p></o:p> of the lotus feet of Lord Sri Krsna, the maintainer of the gopis<!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_i1032" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="file:///C:\DOKUME~1\Emil\LOKALE~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.gif" o:href=" "/> </v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]-->. <o:p></o:p> He is like an ocean of nectar, and he is the cause of universal transcendental bliss.<o:p></o:p> He is always existing with brilliance." <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> <!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_i1033" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.75pt;height:.75pt'> <v:imagedata src="file:///C:\DOKUME~1\Emil\LOKALE~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.gif" o:href=" "/> </v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--> (Padyavali 74)<o:p></o:p> Your next question was:<o:p></o:p> How is our practical dharma determined?<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> The answer comes now:<o:p></o:p> Practical dharma is determined by the process of awakening one's nitya dharma – love for the All Attractive This "practical dharma" is called sadhana bhakti as defined by Srila Rupa Gosvami: kṛti sādhya bhavet sādhya / bhāvā sa sādhanābhidhā nitya siddhasya bhāvasya / prākatyam hṛdi sādhyatā That which is executed by the material body and has as goal the attainement of bhava - the begining of the divine love is called sadhana-bhakti. <o:p></o:p> <u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p> This bhava which is eternally existing in the soul, is manifested, or others said is awakened, due to executing the process of awakening of divine love, called sadhana bhakti.<o:p></o:p> <u1:p></u1:p> <o:p> </o:p> You said:<o:p></o:p> However, Srila Prabhupada has given us a purely transcendental process which focuses on offering prasadam to different types of living beings.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Well, I don’t know, but if you take the 64 limbs of vaidhi sadhana bhakti, as presented by Srila Rupa Gosvami you won’t find such a process of practicing bhakti. <o:p></o:p> I would personally prefer to follow the traditional Gaudiya bhakti teachings of Rupa Gosvami, and especially not vaidhi sadhana bhakti, but raganuga sadhana bhakti, as he delineated it in his essence of all advices:<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> tan-nāma-rūpa-caritādi-sukīrtanānu-<o:p></o:p> smṛtyoḥ krameṇa rasanā-manasī niyojya<o:p></o:p> tiṣṭhan vraje tad-anurāgi janānugāmī<o:p></o:p> kālaḿ nayed akhilam ity upadeśa-sāram <o:p> </o:p> Live in Vraja - tiṣṭhan vraje utilize -nayet full time - akhilam kālam engaging -niyojya gradually -krameṇa<o:p></o:p> the tongue -rasanā the mind -manasī in nicely chanting -su-kīrtana, following the way of remembering - anusmṛtyoḥ about the name, form and pastimes -nāma-rūpa-caritādi of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> – tat<o:p></o:p> (as these are done) by the eternal residents of Vraja –janānugāmī, who have (the highest types of) attachments for <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> -tad-anurāgi<o:p></o:p>

A bhakti-yogi is outside of the varna-ashrama system taught in the vedas. Karma means naimitk dharma (not the eternal nature of the soul - nitya dharma), karma refers to ocupational duty according the social class (varna) and spiritual order (ashram). In this connection there is a wide spread confusion regarding the meaning of karma. Bhagavan, Sri Krishna explains the meaning of karma : karmaṇo hy api boddhavyaḿ / boddhavyaḿ ca vikarmaṇaḥ akarmaṇaś ca boddhavyaḿ / gahanā karmaṇo gatiḥ (Bhagavat-gita 4.17) Karma, vikarma and akarma should be distinctively understood, because the karmic principle is profound. 1.Vikarma - acting against the prescribed duty , leads to a miserable destiny and destin-ation. 2. Akarma, not acting according the prescribed duty in varna-ashrama, can be - akarma – rejecting varna-ashrama dharma due to ignorance, which is vikarma. - akarma - rejecting varna-ashrama dharma and engaging in activities for the attainment of mukti (salvation - liberation from the bondage of this illusory material energy - maya) - akarma rejecting varna-ashrama dharma and engaging in devotional activities (bhakti) - for the attainment of divine love prema 3. Karma, is the action prescribed according varNa – social class and asram – religious order, which leads to the satisfaction of the Supreme Lord Hari. Nowadays karma is understood as general activity, which doesn’t corespond the original meaning of the vedic word. karmaṇy akarma yaḥ paśyed / akarmaṇi ca karma yaḥ sa buddhimān manuṣyeṣu / sa yuktaḥ kṛtsna-karma-kṛt (Bhagavat-gita 4.18 ) That person endowed with discrimination power (intelligence) buddhimAn, sees inaction in karma and action in akarma. That person is linked (with the spiritual world), although she acts (in this world). The meaning is that for a transcendentaly situated person, situated beyond the modes of material nature, karma (action prescribed according varNa – social class and asram – religious order) is akarma, in the sense that karma is not related to the eternal nature of the soul: shuddha bhakti – loving service to The All Attractive, and such a person sees akarma – not following the prescribed duties of varNa-asharam system, which are due to the false indentification of the soul with temporary denominations of the material body, as real activity – karma, when it is related to the real identity of the soul – a loving servant, friend, parent, or erotic lover of the Lord- which encompasses the nitya dharma – the real nature of the soul.

Our practical nitya-dharma has nothing to do with varna-ashrama dharma, and that is why Sri Krishna Caitanya rejected it and told Ramananda Raya: "This is external. Would you better tell me about other methods.”

1. VARNA-ASHRAMA DHARMA (varna – social class, ashrama –spiritual order) Sri Krishna Caitanya Mahaprabhu ordered Ramananda Raya to recite a vers from shastra regarding the final goal of life. Ramananda Raya said that if someone accomplishes his prescribed duties according his social and religios status, he attains perfection: ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā / varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya / saḿsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam(Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.13) O best among the twice-born, one achieves the highest perfection (saMsiddhir) by discharging the duties prescribed for one's own occupation according to social divisions (varNa) and religious orders of life (ashrama) thus pleasing (toSaNam) the Supreme Lord (Hari – the Well Wisher of His devotees) Sri Krishna Himself says: cātur-varṇyaḿ mayā sṛṣṭaḿ / guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ tasya kartāram api māḿ / viddhy akartāram avyayam Bhagavat-gita 4.13 According to one's own qulities (guna) and the work (karma) associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable. yoga-sthaḥ kuru karmāṇi / sańgaḿ tyaktvā dhanañjaya siddhy-asiddhyoḥ samo bhūtvā / samatvaḿ yoga ucyate(Bg. 2.48 ): Perform your duty equipoised, O Arjuna, abandoning all attachment to success or failure. Such equanimity is called yoga Karma means naimitk dharma (not the eternal nature of the soul - nitya dharma), karma refers to ocupational duty according the social class (varna) and spiritual order (ashram). Sri Krishna Caitanya replied, "This is external. Would you better tell me about other methods.”

Originaly heresy had not the meaning we are familiar today. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> Heresy means "Choice"; heretics are those who choose what they<o:p></o:p> will believe, or whether they will believe at all. It was to<o:p></o:p> foreclose all choice on the part of believers, that the divinely-<o:p></o:p> inspired, apostolic fictions of the Four Gospels were drawn up for<o:p></o:p> the first time to combat the "spurious gospels" of the free<o:p></o:p> choosers.<o:p></o:p> The gospels were anti-heretical (no-choice) documents of the late<o:p></o:p> second century, after Gnosticism first made its cannon. <o:p></o:p> In this connection it may be mentioned, as complained by<o:p></o:p> Augustine, that there were some 93 sects of heretics during the<o:p></o:p> first three centuries of the Christian Faith.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> The “inspired” Four Gospels, contradictory in many points, were impossible to believe; they left every one free to disbelieve all, or to believe such as he could.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> So incredible, even on their face, were one and all of these “orthodox”<o:p></o:p> canonical Four Gospels, <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">St. Augustine</st1:place></st1:City>, greatest of the Fathers, declared himself in these terms: <o:p></o:p> "Ego vero Evangelio non crederem, nisi me Catholicae Ecclesiae conmoveret Auctoritas. ... Ego me ad eos teneam, quibus praecipientibus Evangelio credidi –<o:p></o:p> - I would not believe the Gospel true, unless the authority of the Catholic Church constrained me.<o:p></o:p> ... I hold myself bound to those, through whose teachings I have believed the Gospel." (Augustine, On the Foundation, sec. 5, Ed.<o:p></o:p> Vives, vol. xxv, p. 435; Orpheus, p. 223.)<o:p></o:p>

No written “canonic Gospels” existed until shortly before 185 A.D., when Irenaeus wrote in chapter xxii of his Book II about them.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> Evident we see it to be, from the previous post of anAdi, where was quoted from Irenaeus’s Book III, that the sects of “heretics” named, were making use, each of them of one of the just written “Four” as well as of other "spurious gospels". <o:p></o:p> The Gnostics and other “heretics” were first to reduce some<o:p></o:p> "gospels" to writing; the “Orthodox” quickly followed suit, in order<o:p></o:p> to combat the “heretics” by "apostolic" writings. <o:p></o:p> This is clear from the following, that "the spurious gospels” of the Gnostics prepared the way for the so called othodox canon of Scripture, -- for, as the "canon" was not dogmatically established until 1546, the Four were not "canonized" when Irenaeus wrote in 185, -- when the "way was prepared" for them by the earlier heretical "spurious gospels." Thus CE. writes: <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> "The endless controversies with heretics have been<o:p></o:p> indirectly the cause of most important doctrinal developments<o:p></o:p> and definitions formulated by councils to the edification of<o:p></o:p> the body of Christ. Thus the spurious gospels of the Gnostics<o:p></o:p> prepared the way for the canon of Scripture: the Patri-<o:p></o:p> passian, Sabellian, Arian, and Macedonian heresies drew out a<o:p></o:p> clearer concept of the Trinity; the Nestorian and Eutychian<o:p></o:p> errors led to definite dogmas on the nature and Person of<o:p></o:p> Christ. And so on down to Modernism, which has called forth a<o:p></o:p> solemn assertion of the claims of the supernatural in<o:p></o:p> history." (CE. vii, 261.) <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The above confirm once again that the actual four Gospel have no divine origin, but were fabricated by anonymous writers as previously shown, as a reaction to other christian doctrines already publicated mostly by those who lately were known as Gnostics.<o:p></o:p> The four Gospels were later imposed by the combined endeavors of the state power and pavelinic church, all other religions and Christian sects, being brutally “reprimanded”. <o:p></o:p>