anadi

The bible is not in pursuance of the vedic version. -knowledge about the soul- all twisted -knowledge about bhagavan - mistery -guru tattva - twisted -diksa - siksa - all twisted -knowledge about bhakti abhideya - twisted -shakti tattva - mistery -vaikuntha - identified with heavens ..... You ignored it of course.

"It seems to me you are just grasping at straws Anadi. " thank you, for your proving it. let's have a look on your comparisons. Take the cows. You cannot compare books with cows. And take whatever you put it as arguments, like clothes. In the spiritual world your clothes and your ornaments are not different from yourself. As for the need of books, as an instrument to convey or preserve information, I've never heard that in heaven they would need it. As for the description in the "revelation" about the opening of "the book" and seeing in it what will happen, not reading it, it seems rather like a mistical or technological medium and less like a book. As for the spiritual world, there, there is no future and no past that one is concern on, no interests in books, but to live the reality, and no idea about maya. As for the content of what allegedly has been seen in "the book with seven seals" we will see the plagiarism of inserting "the lamb" in the apocalypse.

It is not about logic, is about the transcendental knowledge, which is very much twisted in the plagiated texts used in making up the bible. Visions of Heaven or Spiritual world? Whose Vision? Now, as we go in the “vision of heaven” let’s say it is the vision of Jesus as proclaimed in the beginning, but let accept it like the vision of John, which as previously deliniated, cannot be the case, and see how it works. “5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?” Is it possible that in the spiritual world is a book (with 7 seals, that no one dares to look at it), or even in heaven? Very unlikely, even on the earth, in the previous yugas there was no need of books, because of the good memory that was still prevailing, what to say about the spiritual world or even the heavenly planets? “5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.” In this next verse we see also that in the original apocalypse there must have been some knowledge about the three types of material planetary systems, “in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth” “5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.” If he were in the spiritual world how is it possible to find there unworthy people to look in that book? And if it was the heaven? “5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.” And if it were the spiritual world how is it possible that we find a material identification with the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, which have to do only with the creation lila related to the material world? “5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.” Interesting to see that we have an idea about the four beasts that have a "resemblance" to the catur viuha from Vaikuntha, but not really. And Jesus is in heaven as a lamb?! Who took the book from the hand of the Lord? Or the king of heaven?, here the said one “that sat upon the throne”, maybe if it were the Lord, he was addressed as such. Interesting also how the saints ask for revenge. “6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?” Which definitely don’t put the acted drama in the spiritual world, where there is no idea about the material world, and acts of vengeance, and here the addressed "Lord" could be Yamaraja? or Indra? or maybe Brahma? Who cares! who cares about all this apasiddhanta which is spread in the world in the name of truth, the only truth and nothing but the truth? Symptomatic that one of the guardians of "true religion" is qhari! I had expected it from one like theist... but who knows... in the name of cultivation of good relations... or maybe samskaras of the past are at work...

Personal attacks You both, theist and qhari, take you by the hand as previously kailasa and siva did. You will never, never prove that bible is but a twisted plagiarism. Instead of it, you just try to throw some mud on me. Keep on do it and speculate on demonic nature.

Vrajanatha: What is the difference between ISvara and the jIva? BAbAji: First you should understand the non-difference between ISvara and the jIva, and after that, I will explain their eternal difference. ISvara is the embodiment of knowledge (jJAna-svarUpa), the knower (jJAtA-svarUpa), one who considers or reflects (mantAsvarUpa) the enjoyer (bhoktR-svarUpa) self-effulgent (svaprakASa) He also illuminates others (para-prakASa) He has His own desires (icchA-maya), and He is the knower of all (kzetra-jJA). The jIva, too, is the form of knowledge, the knower, and the enjoyer; he too, is self-effulgent, and he illuminates others; and he too, has desires, and is the knower of his own field (kzetra-jJA). From this perspective,there is no difference between them. However, ISvara is omnipotent, and by dint of this omnipotence, He is the basis of all these qualities, which are present in Him in full. These qualities are also present in the atomic jIva, but only to a minute degree. Thus, the nature and form of ISvara and the jiva are eternally different from each other because one is complete and the other is minute; and at the same time, there is a lack of distinction between ISvara and the jIva because of the similarity between their qualities. ISvara is the Lord of svarUpa-Sakti, jIva-Sakti and mAyA-Sakti because of the completeness of the internal potency (Atma-Sakti). Sakti is His maidservant, and He is the Lord of Sakti, who is activatedby His desire; this is the svarUpa of ISvara. Though the qualities of ISvara are present in the jIva to a minute degree, the jIva is nonetheless under the control of Sakti. The word mAyA has been used in DaSa-mUla not only to indicate material mAyA, but also to indicate svarUpa-Sakti . MIyate anayA iti mAyA, “MAyA is that by which things can be measured .” The word mAyA refers to the Sakti that illuminates KRSNa’s identity in all the three worlds, namely, the cit-jagat, acit-jagat, and jIva-jagat . KRSNa is the controller of maya and the jIva is under the control of mAyA. Jaiva Dharma Prameya Jiva Tattva Ch 15 What is jIva jagat?

As I edited more or less, this has to do with those commentaries on the fraud in the bible as they are atheistic, more from the "free thinker" logical point of view, and I gave a clou for the interested ones to look for the source of bible fraud, but this is second rate. The point is that the bible in itself is a fraud. Further it would be interesting to analize this fraud of "revelation" in the context of partial pralaya as explained in Srimad Bhagavatam, Canto 3 Ch.11 from verse 28, as some "yogis" pretend that in the revelation the christians have information about the spiritual world.

Dear mahak prabhu, thank you for your encouraging words. The idea of this thread is to show the basic fraud, and how the false siddhanta was spread by the pavelian sect of "christians" with the help of a forged collection of texts known under the name of bible. A most unusual aspect of the book of Revelation is its letters to seven churches in Asia Minor: Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea (see chapters 2 and 3). This is unparalleled in apocalyptic writing and has to be due ultimately to the impact that Paul's letter writing made on the New Testament church. Paul's letters had become so important that the literary form was imitated even by an apocalyptic writer. The book of Revelation as a whole has the external form of a letter in that it begins with an opening salutation (1:4-6) and closes with a benediction (22:21). The contrast in literary form between the direct address of the letters and the symbolic drama of the remainder of the book is startling, but no more so than the fact that an apocalyptic writer identifies himself and calls his work a prophecy. The fact that we have here the outward form of a Pauline letter helps us to grasp the essential thrust of the work. It begins with a salutation in the Pauline style: "To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen" (Rev 1:5b-6; compare Gal 1:3-5). But then it continues: "Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, every one who pierced him; and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen" (1:7). This is a classic statement of early Christian hope for the return of Jesus as apocalyptic judge and redeemer. Similarly, the closing benediction, "The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints. Amen" (22:21), is in the Pauline style, but it is preceded by a prayer for the coming of the Lord, "Come, Lord Jesus" (22:20). That is a fraud, we can see it also here, where it has been said that was the “revelation” of Jesus, and was brought to John by an angel, but here is presented as if John had the revelation. Not that Jesus has seen the Lord, but John has seen Jesus, who is presented in the pavelinic doctrine as the Lord. 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him (Jesus): and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. And in the next verse Jesus is presented as the God Himself, the Almighty Lord, which is another fraudulent idea introduced in the original esenian revelation. 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. … 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. … 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. … 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead (Jesus); and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. And this statement that Jesus has the keys of hell, makes him more a demigod like Yamaraja, but this statement maybe should be understood in the Pauline doctrine of eternal punishing of the evil human beings. In the verse below we can see an analogy to the seven stars where the seven rishis are living, but the editorial work of the churchians put the seven stars as the seven churches! 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. (in Asia Minor: Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea).

by anadi

Dear Jagat prabhu, dandavat pranama The answer might be found in Jaiva Dharma, Paramahamsa Babaji revealed Sanyasi Thakura his siddha deha just a few days previously to ruchi (that means Sanyasi Thakura was still in nistha). "A few days after residing in the kuïja, SannyAsI ThAkura became anxious to inquire about spiritual truths from ParamahaNsa BAbAjI. By this time, the sannyAsI had adopted all the ways of a VaiSNava, except for his outer dress. During his previous training, SannyAsI ThAkura had developed qualities such as full control over his mind and senses, and had become firmly established in the conception of the non-dual, all-pervading Absolute (brahma-niSThA). In addition, he had now acquired staunch faith in the transcendental pastimes of Parabrahma Sri KRSNa, and had become deeply humble." This means Sanyasi Thakura was in nistha. Suddenly Paramahamsa BAbAjI said to him, "O sakhI, silence KakkhaTI (Srimaté RAdhikA's monkey) at once, otherwise she will rouse RAdhA-Govinda from Their sleep of divine pleasure; then LalitA-sakhI will become distressed, and will rebuke me. Look there! AnaNga MaNjarI is signaling for you to do this. You are RamaNa MaNjarI and this is your designated service. Be attentive in this regard." At the end of the next chapter we find the revelation: "SannyAsI ThAkura was deeply immersed in the nectar of BAbAjI MahArAja's instructions, and he began to dance as he chanted Sri kRSNa- nAma: "Hare kRSNa, Hare kRSNa, kRSNa kRSNa, Hare Hare / Hare RAma, Hare RAma, RAma RAma, Hare Hare".On that day, he experienced ruci, a natural taste, for hari-nAma." The text from Madhurya Kadambini, is there only to show that in nistha does not mean that all the anarthas are away, but the most disturbing ones in performing Radha-Krishna bhajana.

"my shastra is better than your shastra" Sorry, the true is, the bible is no shastra, is a fake sastra. The living entity will belive in a book, and he will call it shastra, but this book doesn't give him proper information about reality. this must be clear. In that book the reality is completely distorted. The old "testament" is a forged copy of some old jewish and other texts, + extra modified over the ceturies + fraudly translated. And the new testament is a collection of 13 letters of Paul to different churches and other texts that comply with the Paulus doctrine, + extra modified over the ceturies + fraudly translated, excluding the little transcendental knowledge that was to be found in the early christian gnostic books generally destroyed (as their followers too) by the "fathers of the ortodhoxy". This could be done more in private than in a open forum. According one's power of his bhajan one can see one's realization. The matter of fact everybody speaks or "quotes" according his reallization, according the power of his bhajana. anadi

previous post by anadi

Of course you referred to sadhana siddha gopis. And they don’t go to mangala arati to sing mangala sri guru gaura mangala murati / mangala si Radha Krishna yugala piriti And they don’t chant maha mantra as Sri Gauranga taught his nija jana. Why? Maybe you know the answer, I mean you know how they attaind the body of a gopi in Radha-Krishna prakat lila.

Another fraud, the "Revelation of John" Nr.3 The end of the world must come at some time. Presumably that it might be "soon." Prologue 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. The first sentence could scarcely be clearer in telling the reader that this is the "Revelation Of Jesus Christ." Then Jesus sent an angel to John with the message of “Revelation” so that John will record it and bare testimony of it, but here the revelation is declared to be God's revelation to Jesus. The testimony is that of "Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw (he is more modest in the Greek than our Christian translators suggest, for he does not vouch for "all things that he saw" but "as much as he saw)." But as previously mentioned, this “Revelation” is nothing but a compilation of previous apocalyptic doctrine modified by the Essenes and later by the “parents of the church”, what to say that this was later called the “Revelation of John”. In other words, this is not, as it is offered to the faithful, a mysterious vision of the distant future sent by Jesus through an angel, as a messenger, to a loyal disciple, and sold as the own vision of the disciple John. The declaration is that things must "shortly come to pass" and "the time is at hand," and the prologue tells us that this is "prophecy." Jesus thought these things were at hand then! And from that time on it is taught like this. The End of Time is near, Jesus ist ... the salvation and the only son of God.

Mind and speech both have their origin in matter, and they cannot touch the transcendental truth, even with the greatest endeavor. The Vedas say in Taittiréya UpaniSad (2.9) yato vAco nivartante aprApya manasA saha The speech and the mind return from brahma, being unable to attain Him. I advise you not to inquire about this matter from anyone , but to realize it yourself. I have just given you an indication (AbhAsa). from Jaiva Dharma Prameya Jiva Tattva Ch 15

Another fraud, the "Revelation of John" Nr.2 Revelation is in several parts but two main ones can be distinguished by any reader—the division between what seem to be letters to seven churches and the rest of the book that is largely a description of the end of the world. If the seven epistles and the epilogue are removed, and fairly obvious cosmetic additions made by Christians—such as adding references to Jesus alongside or instead of references to God—are also removed, the result is a barely unadulterated Jewish apocalypse. Sometimes we read of the uniformity of the tone of the book, but the main division at Chapter 4 is plain to see, uniform tone or not. Such a notable scholar as Harnack vouched for this. Modern Christian scholars do not deny that the author drew on Jewish sources to compose the work, but claim that the Christian content was too deeply integrated to be merely editorial. However, this becomes much less convincing if it is accepted that Christianity evolved from the Essene sect and did not emerge fully formed with the birth or baptism of Jesus. The Christian oriented choice of scriptural allusion that Christians see as so intimately woven into the fabric of Revelation as to be inextricable was there originally but was Essene not Christian. A peculiarity of the book is the number of Old Testament allusions in it—about 300 in 400 verses. Christians might not think this is odd, but for a book that is stylistically so early, it shows it was written for a Jewish audience. The first gentile Christians would mostly have known nothing about the Jewish scriptures, and Mark's gospel, for example, eschewed such references. The growth of Christianity created the gentile interest in the Septuagint until scriptural references could be understood. Conceivably a book newly written about 100 AD for a learned audience might have been replete with scriptural references, but the style and poor grammar prove that was not the case. It therefore was a book written for Jews by Jews. The point is that the original authors of Revelation believed that the Eschaton, the End of Time, would be "soon"—then! Their successors realised they were wrong and made some alterations that appear particularly towards the end of the book, to push the Eschaton much later in time. Unfortunately all subsequent Christians have done the same. A prophetic industry has been created in which interpretations of Revelation as supposedly "current" are made every generation. The visions in Revelation are all aspects of the Essene theory of the End Time. Satan is imprisoned and ultimated is tortured for eternity but refuses to be converted. The wicked city, Rome, falls unrepentent. Nevertheless, Christian commentators say, the work is not dualistic because evil is routed. The same commentators say that Mazdayasnism is dualistic even though the outcome is the same! They lie, they insist on believing, contrary to all evidence and common sense, that Christianity was "revealed" once and for all and without any parents. Some commentators do not want to consider that a Christian editor has simply changed the original Essenes text , changing Yehouah or some aspect of Him into Jesus and the lamb. Where this substitution has not occurred, the "lamb" has been simply added to "God." Jesus and the Essenes expected Yehouah or his heavenly lieutenant, the angel Michael, to arrive with the hosts of heaven. Michael was however identified with the Messiah and when Jesus was thought to have been the Messiah, but yet no hosts of heaven had arrived, they claimed he would return as Michael at the head of the hosts. The idea of the Christian Parousia was born out of God's miracle at the End. The main testament to the non-Christianity of Revelation is its partisanship—it makes no attempt at universality except in parts that are plainly later, Christian additions. The author declares he is a member of a brotherhood and writes for his brethren. The emperor worship mentioned in Revelation 13:15 places the work in the time of Domitian, Christians say. Domitian was the first emperor to use the title Lord and God. But emperors from Augustus were claiming divinity under different titles as a way of obtaining loyalty. It was a device akin to having American schoolchildren swearing allegiance to the US flag. Pliny tells us that Christianity was persecuted throughout the empire under Domitian, whereas the earlier persecution under Nero had only been local to Rome. No one considers that the work refers to persecution of the Essenes and light editing was undertaken to make the earlier work topical at the end of the century. In Revelation 11:1-2 the reference to the temple implies that the work is pre-Christian and written before the Jewish War of 70 AD. S H Travis in Christian Hope and the Future of Man sees "parallels in Parseeism (Zoroastrianism) to several doctrines of Jewish apocalyptic—dualism, universalism and individualism, resurrection of the dead, structured course of history, infuence of evil in the good world and eschatological victory of the good." Jewish apocalyptic was pessimistic, expected an immediate end and denied that all men would be saved! Source: AskWhy! Publications Selwyn 41 The Butts Frome BA 11 4AB UK Any apocalyptic is pessimistic for the wicked because they get punished with the everlasting hell, which implies - the spiritual world , which is eternal entails an eternal suffering condition, contradicting the nature of that world which is pure bliss and love - the law of karma is transferred in the spiritual world. - The Lord is unjust because for temporary wrong doings and mistakes of the conditioned soul, the soul is punished with an eternal suffering - The mercy of the Lord is not unlimited and He is not all love.

"Do you have knowledge about your sambhanda jnana?" Knowledge about one's sambhanda jnana is imparted in the heart of the disciple by guru, and this entails the personal relation of the disciple with the Deity of his mantra. This might come shortly prior to the stage of ruci, when the disciple is already in the nisthita bhajan. See Madhurya Kadambini Cloudbank of Nectar CHAPTER 4 Fourth Shower of Nectar Previously, in the discussion of the two types of bhajana kriya, anishthita and nishthita, six types of the anishthita bhajana kriya were described. Without describing nishthita bhajana kriya, anartha nivritti was discussed. Because it says in Shrimad Bhagavatam: SRNvatam sva-kathAM kRSNaH punya-SravaNa-kIrtanaH hRdy antaH stho hy abhadrANi vidhunoti suhRt satam naSTa-prAyeSv abhadreZu nityaM bhagavata-sevayA bhagavaty uttama-Sloke bhaktir bhavati naiSThikI Lord Krishna, who is affectionate to His devotees and situated in their hearts, destroys all inauspicious elements of those who hear topics about the Lord. When the inauspicious elements have been generally destroyed by devotional service, steady devotion to the Lord appears. (SB:1.2.17-18 ) The first verse (SRnvatam sva-kathaH...) refers to the stage of anishthita or unsteady bhakti, for naistiki bhakti or nishthita bhakti makes its appearance later in the second verse. Abhadrani vidhunoti (destruction of inauspicious elements) which appears between these two stages, refers to the stage of anartha nivritti. The words nasta-prayesv abhadresu (inauspiciousness is almost destroyed) means at the stage of nishtha, only a small portion of anarthas remains. Thus, The proper order according to Shrimad Bhagavatam is bhajana kriya, anartha nivritti, nishtha. Therefore in its proper place, nishthita bhakti will be discussed now. Nishtha means to be endowed with the quality of steadiness, or non-movement (naishchalyam). Though a person tries for steadiness every day, while the anarthas are still present, he will not attain steadiness. This is due to these five persistent obstacles: laya (sleep), vikshepa (distraction), apratipatti (indifference or disinterest in spiritual topics), kashaya (tendency toward bad habits) and rasasvada (taste for material enjoyment). After the stage of anartha nivritti, when these obstacles are almost completely destroyed, one achieves steadiness. Thus, the symptom of nishtha is the absence of the above mentioned obstacles.

Realized sadhakas, though, experience transcendental truth through their cit-samAdhi. Our words always have some material limitation, so whatever we say will have some mAyika defects. My dear son, you should always endeavor to realize the pure truth. Logic and argument cannot help at all in this regard, so it is futile to use them to try to understand inconceivable subject matters. I know that you will not be able to understand these subjects in a moment, but as you cultivate these transcendental moods within your heart, you will realize cinmaya-bhava more and more. In other words, all the transcendental moods will manifest themselves in the core of your purified heart. Your body is material, and all the activities of your body are also material, but the essence of your being is not material; you are an atomic conscious entity. The more you know yourself, the more you will be able to realize how your svarUpa is a tattva superior to the world of mAyA. Even if I tell you, you will not realize it, or simply be hearing you will not attain it. Cultivate the practice of chanting hari-nama as much as possible. As you go on chanting hari-nAma, these transcendental bhAvas will begin to manifest in your heart automatically, and to the degree that they do so, you will be able to realize the transcendental world. from Jaiva Dharma Prameya Jiva Tattva Ch 15

The fraud about "The Revelation of John" (1) Apocalypses were written by Jews in uncertain times to buttress faith. The genre is a recounting of past tribulations, a prophecy of worse to come and an assurance of ultimate victory and reward with proper punishment for former oppressors. Examples are Isaiah 24-27; Ezekiel 38-39; Dan 2:7-11; Zechariah 12-14; Mark 13 (Mt 24-25). Christians were fond of the apocalyptic type of writing when they were from time to time persecuted by Romans but it is accepted that Christians did not write their own. They read and adapted Jewish apocalypses like the scriptural examples and the Ascension of Isaiah and 4 Ezra. Revelation is the main apocalypse of the New Testament and might be thought to be a Christian work. It is, only in the sense that it is edited by Christians, but the bulk of the content is from earlier Jewish sources. We now recognize that Apocalyptic was a particular interest of some of the Jewish sects from the Maccabees to the Jewish War. The main among these were the Essenes. If there ever was a fashion among the Pharisees for Apocalyptic, it was expunged after the Jewish wars of 70 AD and 132 AD when Judaism was badly battered as a result of apocalyptic fancies. These were large scale conflicts but we know from Josephus and the Books of the Maccabees that Palestine was a rebellious place for about 300 years. Did lesser incidents arise out of the apocalyptic notions of the Jews before their final abandonment of this way of thinking? Historically, rather than theologically, the myth of Jesus is most convincingly explained from this historical fact of apocalyptic fervour among some Jews in the first century. Jesus obviously thought the end of the world was due and that it was his duty to help defeat the cosmic forces of evil by defeating them here on earth. The forces of evil to most Jews at the time were their idolatrous Roman oppressors and the Jews who collaborated with them. As an Essene Jesus believed that the time of the End had arrived and he had to act to demonstrate to God that Israel was not apostate by accepting foreign rule. He led a band of his followers called Nazarenes in an attack on Jerusalem and, probably with the help of many pilgrims attending the temple at Passover, he succeeded in defeating the Roman garrison of Jerusalem. Naturally, Christians, who are not interested in history unless it supports their beliefs, reject all this, but the Revelation of John is valuable evidence in this argument. It is the best source we have of the beliefs of Jesus himself, once the fairly obvious Christian alterations are discarded, and some of those Christian changes actually confirm that a victory was won. Again Christians will concur but claim the victory was the spiritual victory of perfect goodness in the form of God incarnate over mankind's wickedness, represented mainly by the believers in the same God as the Christians, earlier chosen by God as His people—the Jews. Yet no one who reads Revelation could pretend that it is other than extremely violent and unforgiving. It is retained because Christians have never wanted or supported theological clarity. Christian priests and parents can scare their charges into submission, while generally pretending that their god is purely love. Nevertheless, the Apocalypse got into Christian tradition somehow, and the historical explanation is that it is how the Christians originally thought. If Christianity began with an apocalyptic Jewish sect, it would hardly be surprising that it had an eschatological tradition and mythology behind it. The Jewish sect was the Essenes, who saw themselves as prophets because they were forever watching for signs of the end of the world. The author of this book sees it as prophecy and no less a person than Paul the apostles declared that prophecy was one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Revelation is still not too logical and many a scholar has suggested that bits have been misplaced but, since the Dead Sea Scrolls have been found revealing the sectarian literature of the Essenes, it is plain that the original apocalypse is very like some of the literature in the scrolls, notably the War Scroll, the Temple Scroll and some of the imagery in the hymns. Though it is given the name of John, the apostle who supposedly composed the fourth gospel, it is written in Greek described by scholars as barbaric. The author of John's gospel had a limited Greek vocabulary but wrote what he wrote in a didactic style that shines through the translations, and is manifestly quite different from the style of this apocalypse. Similar phrases in both books here and there do not serve to prove a connexion. Christians quite deliberately used the New Testament just as Jews used the Old Testament, and all these parallels show, is that some of the editors had gospels before them.. In parts the author displays some subtlety of Greek grammar, showing that editors have been at work. There are some links with the fourth gospel notably the use of the title, Logos. Rather than proof of the author's identity, this more likely shows a fashion in the milieu that both books were written—probably some eastern church. Source: AskWhy! Publications Selwyn 41 The Butts Frome BA 11 4AB UK

BAbAji: The time and space that you experience in this material world are completely different from time and space in the spiritual world. Material time is divided into three aspects: past, present and future. However, in the spiritual world there is only one undivided , eternally present time. Every event of the spiritual world is eternally present. Whatever we say or describe in the material world is under the jurisdiction of material time and space, so when we say – “The jivas were created,” “The spiritual world was manifested,” or “There is no influence of mAyA in creating the form of the jivas,” – material time is bound to influence our language and our statements. This is inevitable in our conditioned state, so we cannot remove the influence of material time from our descriptions of the atomic jiva and spiritual objects. The conception of past, present and future always enters them in some way or another. Still, those who can discriminate properly can understand the application of the eternal present when they comprehend the purport of the descriptions of the spiritual world. BAbA, be very careful in this matter. Give up the inevitable baseness, or the aspect of the description that is fit to be rejected, and have spiritual realization. All VaiSNavas say that the jiva is an eternal servant of KRSNa, that his eternal nature is to serve KRSNa, and that he is now bound by mAyA, because he has forgotten that eternal nature. However, everyone knows that the jIva is an eternal entity, of which there are two types: nitya-mukta and nitya-baddha . The subject has been explained in this way only because the conditioned human intellect being controlled by pramAda (inattentiveness), is unable to comprehend a subject matter. from Jaiva Dharma Prameya Jiva Tattva Ch 15

The two points highlighted here are significant: The one who reads sastra by his own, and quotes it to prove his own point of view, or the point of view of some groups who run astray from the meaning of it, making new doctrines which are against the meaning as it was delineated by previous acaryas, these people posses two characteristic: 1. they have a demonic nature (not “the devil”), which means they are rascals As you previously said: “Perhaps slokas are important, if taken in context remember, the devil uses the bible to prove his points “ (although you are against in my using the slokas in proving the points my Gurudeva and the previous acaryas delineated, the matter of fact you just stress once again my point in using the sastra without being under the guidance of the realized sat guru) 2. they are fools ( as you said: “What I was talking about is that any fool can use scripture to verify the foolishness.” But that they have a demonic nature, not that they are the devil, this is also true.

In Jaiva Dharma Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, which is gaura shakti svarupa, says in a quite moderate tone that his opinion is that such a person as “the devil” or “satan” does not exist. We should try to free oneself from the thoughts of a book which is an eclectic fraudulent work of people concerned more on imposing a concocted doctrine about the Absolut Truth, and bhakti, and as in the above statement tried to intimidate to ones who will see something else in the words of that book as their own concocted dogmas, and as such they must be “the devil”. Goräcända: Isvara is one without a second, and He has no rival. Everything in this world is created by Him and is under His control. Therefore, He can be satisfied with any object when it is used in His worship. There is no object in this world one can worship that can arouse His malice, for He is all-auspicious. Even if a person such as Satan exists, he is no more than a special jiva under the control of God, and has no power to do anything that is opposed to God’s will. However, in my opinion, it is not possible for such a monstrous living entity to exist. (Jaiva Dharma , Ch.11 Nitya Dharma & Idolatry)

You still haven't got the point. zikSa guru is one that out of many competent Sravana gurus who gives instructions on bhajana which is specifically suitable to the bhava of his disciple. This is not given through books. Srila Jiva Gosvami says: atha Sravana guru bhajana Sikza guroh prayakam ekatvam iti tathaivAha from Bhakti Sandarbha. Ann.206 which says that the Sravana and bhajana Sikza guru are usually the same. 3. DikSa guru (mantra guru) is one who - gives a mantra for worshiping according the rules of the scriptures - should posses all symptoms of a mahat puruSa sad guru - has direct experience and realization of bhagavan - is well conversant in the conclusions of the Sastra - is expert in expounding the conclusions of the acaryas There is only one dikSa guru. Normally the dikSa guru is also the bhajana Sikza guru. If not, one should accept a sad Sikza guru. Have you taken dikSa from Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami? divyam jJAnaM yato dadyAt kuryAt pApasya saNKzayam What is the meaning: bestow transcendental knowledge -divyam jJAnaM yato dadyAt ? this divya jJna refers to sambhanda jJna, knowledge of one's relation with the deities of his mantras. Do you have knowledge about your sambhanda jnana? This comes not from the books.

This is nice, and essential but is by far not at all the encompasing guru-tattva. And to say that guru tattva (literaly the truth about guru)refers to the quality of the disciple is like saying krishna tattva refers to radha tattva or shakti tattva. In a way for an advanced devotee as you are there is no difference, As for the neophytes as me Srila Jiva Gosvami and Srila Rupa Gosvami wrote all this truth, so that I can distinguish what is the truth about bhakti, guru, krishna, ...all this tattvas. I don't write more, because slokas are too pompous for you. Slokas are very important for neophytes. And I am one of them. all glories to sri guru and gaura

In churchianism there is also some kind of dikSa. This is called the baptising ceremony, but is completly twisted. Some ideas -like giving a name (which should be a transcendental name) - throubgh baptising the sins are distroyed divyam jJAnaM yato dadyAt kuryAt pApasya saNKzayam tasmat dikzeti sA proktA diSikais tatttva kovidaiH That which bestow transcendental knowledge -divyam jJAnaM yato dadyAt and destroys sins, the seed of sins and destroys avidyA to the root is called dikSa by tattva learned authourities In churchianism they have no idea about the power of the transcendental sound uttered by the pure devotee: The guru's spiritual mood of service THE INTERNAL MOOD OF SERVICE to Sri Radhika and Krsna is conveyed to the disciple through the medium of MANTRA (yo mantra sa guruh sAkSat yo guru sa harih svayam ) ." The internal mood of service is transcendental, why? Because bhakti is a function of the svarupa shakti, not of the material senses. And to convey the transcendental (bhakti) you need the transcendental carrier which is the transcendental sound MANTRA, which can be vibrated by the transcendental person. Everything is given in seed from within the mantra. In normal case if one does not receive the transcendental seed of bhakti seva vasana, the desire to serve the divine couple (as in our gaudya vaisnava line), how can one make his devotional creeper (bhakti lata) grow? As we see dikSa is not only formality, when dikSa is performed by the transcendental guru personally. Why personally? Because guru is the manifestation of Sri Hari. “Guru is not an ordinary person. Guru is transcendental". No conditioned person can give the transcendental mantras, just because one acts in the name of a realized person, as “HarikeS Svami” used to say “I give you sannyasa in the name of Srila Prabhaupada”. What is this? This is cheating, kuti-nati (deceitful behaviour). The transcendental mantras can be uttered only by the tattva darSi, the persons that realized the Absolut Truth. The transcendental mantras can be received only from the mouth of the pure devotees, by their very presence.

Oh, Krishna! You are proficient in twisting words. In german there is a saying "Der fuchs is schlau und stellt sich dumm, by theist ist es andersrum". Demoniac is to think that reading shastra means consulting the guru. You pretend you don't understand and use the word Prabhupada to stir the others against me. And you did it anyway quite well. This is shameless of you. This was your idea, and this is all ritvik idea, to substitute guru through sastra, including the idea that there is no need for dikSa. I realy wonder if many really understand your point of view, you try to hide, or put it another way, as originaly put it, when I asked what is the meaning to consult guru. "Consulting guru is done every time we read a Prabhupada purport." This is consulting sastra, not guru. Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Prabhupada, has never said he invented something new. He did only repeat what the disciplic succession has already said, not alterating this knowledge at all. The problem is that the neophyte devotees take one statement of his and start to speculate, speaking about the trees, but not seeing the forest, this is the way new doctrins start, like one does not need a guru, one does not need diksa, jiva falls from goloka.