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when is guru to be rejected?

anadi replied to a topic in Spiritual Discussions

Most dear qHari, dandavat pranam, regarding your previous staments Krishna says quite clearly(Bg 2.62-64);<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> While contemplating the objects of the senses, a person develops attachment for them, and from such attachment lust develops, and from lust anger arises.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> From anger, complete delusion arises, and from delusion bewilderment of memory. When memory is bewildered, intelligence is lost, and when intelligence is lost one falls down again into the material pool.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> But tu one who has become free vimuktaiḥ (from) material attachments rāga, envy dveṣa , and has und control ātma-vaśyaiḥ the senses indriyaiḥ acted upon caran material sense objects viṣayān and follows regulated principles related to the soul vidheya-ātmā attains adhigacchati the mercy of the Lord prasādam<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> rāga-dveṣa-vimuktais tuviṣayān indriyaiś caran |<o:p></o:p> ātma-vaśyair vidheyātmā prasādamadhigacchati ||<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> As you can see the rules of attaining the mercy of the Lord are deliniated by Krishna Himself. The causeless mercy of the Lord is not the rule, but the exception.

when is guru to be rejected?

anadi replied to a topic in Spiritual Discussions

<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Dear qHari, Dandavat pranam, <o:p></o:p> One has to be fortunate to obtain such mercy, and this is haituki kripa, kripa that has a cause. <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comKrishna</st1:place> can also give His mercy without a cause, but this is not the rule. One has to do something to attain His mercy. <o:p></o:p> [color=black></o:p> <FONT]<st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> can also give His mercy without a cause, but this is not the rule. One has to do something to attain His mercy. <o:p></o:p> Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu gave this meaning to the word sukriti in the context of eating the same that <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> touched with His lips.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Please see the context:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Lord Caitanya said to the doorman, "You are My friend. Please show Me where the Lord of My heart is." After the Lord said this, they both went to the place known as Jagamohana, where everyone views Lord Jagannātha.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu stayed behind the huge column called the Garuḍa-stambha and looked upon Lord Jagannātha, but as He looked He saw that Lord Jagannātha had become Lord Kṛṣṇa, with His flute to His mouth.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The offering of food known as gopāla-vallabha-bhoga was then given to Lord Jagannātha, and ārati was performed with the sound of the conch and the ringing of bells.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> When the ārati finished, the prasādam was taken out, and the servants of Lord Jagannātha came to offer some to Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The servants of Lord Jagannātha first garlanded Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and then offered Him Lord Jagannātha's prasādam. The prasādam was so nice that its aroma alone, to say nothing of its taste, would drive the mind mad.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The prasādam was made of very valuable ingredients. Therefore the servant wanted to feed Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu a portion of it.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu tasted a portion of the prasādam. Govinda took the rest and bound it in the end of his wrapper.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> To Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu the prasādam tasted millions upon millions of times better than nectar, and thus He was fully satisfied. The hair all over His body stood on end, and incessant tears flowed from His eyes.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu considered, "Where has such a taste in this prasādam come from? Certainly it is due to its having been touched by the nectar of Kṛṣṇa's lips."<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Understanding this, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu felt an emotion of ecstatic love for Kṛṣṇa, but upon seeing the servants of Lord Jagannātha, He restrained Himself.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The Lord said again and again, "Only by great fortune may one come by a particle of the remnants of food offered to the Lord."The servants of the Jagannātha temple inquired, "What is the meaning of this?"<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu replied, "These are remnants of food that Kṛṣṇa has eaten and thus turned to nectar with His lips. It surpasses heavenly nectar, and even such demigods as Lord Brahmā find it difficult to obtain.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> "Remnants left by Kṛṣṇa are called phelā. Anyone who obtains even a small portion must be considered very fortunate.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> "One who is only ordinarily fortunate cannot obtain such mercy. Only persons who have the full mercy of Kṛṣṇa can receive such remnants.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> "The word 'sukṛti' refers to pious activities performed by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa. One who is fortunate enough to obtain such mercy receives the remnants of the Lord's food and thus becomes glorious."<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> As you can see here it is spoken of the special mercy of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> of tasting the remanants of the Lord.<o:p></o:p> In this connection the remnants of the Lord, Sriman Mahaprabhu is speaking of, is very special. Only very few highly elevated personalities upon Sri Krishna mercy has downed can taste such prasad.<o:p></o:p>

when is guru to be rejected?

anadi replied to a topic in Spiritual Discussions

Dear qHari, Dandavat pranam, <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> spoke about people whose pious activities are deemed for sens enjoyment, and that he has to bless (reward) them accordingly: <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Although I have the power to award spiritual liberation, lusty persons worship Me with penance and vows in order to get My blessings for their mundane family life. Such persons are bewildered by My illusory energy.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> And Rukmini rerplied:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> O supreme reservoir of love, unfortunate are they who even after obtaining Me, the Lord of both liberation and material riches, hanker only for material treasures. These worldly gains can be found even in hell. Since such persons are obsessed with sense gratification, hell is a fitting place for them.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> This is has nothing to do with the fortune of bhakti sukriti.

when is guru to be rejected?

anadi replied to a topic in Spiritual Discussions

Dear qHari, dandavat pranam, This has nothing to do with the fortune of bhakti sukriti, which is the prerequisite for shraddha. And Ravana wanted to enjoy Sita, that is why he kidnapped Her (not for bhakti association). He had a demoniac mentality.

when is guru to be rejected?

anadi replied to a topic in Spiritual Discussions

<o:p> </o:p> Dear qHari, Dandavat pranam<o:p></o:p> You said: Only forgetfulness of unlimited sins committed over eons and eons since time immemorial could make someone think himself worthy of Krsna's mercy - that Krsna is BOUND to do anything…<o:p></o:p> My reply was<o:p></o:p> The fact that <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is bound to respect His word, when He says that He rewards everyone accordingly, it doesn’t mean one should “think himself worthy of Krsna's mercy" (as you concluded)<o:p></o:p> You should not jump to false conclusions.  <o:p></o:p> Your commentary<o:p></o:p> I keep wondering if your arguments really make sense to you. They fall apart in my mind so many ways before I even conclude reading them. I cannot believe that you so unfortunate that the fallacies are not also revealed to you. Your postures are always nullified by the points in posts that you do not address.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Please can you help me and be more precise?<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Then you said:<o:p></o:p> You conclude there is no such thing as mercy, that you will demand Krsna when you reach the top step of your staircase. Simply arrogance.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> But <o:p></o:p> This is your conclusion not mine, and for your conclusion you are stamping me as arrogant.<o:p></o:p> Sorry that I say it, but if you don’t understand something you should ask first.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Shraddha comes not out of mercy, and this does not mean that there is no such thing as mercy, as you stated.<o:p></o:p> If mercy is not related to the awakening of faith, it doesn’t mean that there is no such thing as mercy, as you stated.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> As I brought evidence from shastra <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> behaves equal to everyone up to the point where one starts to worship Him. <o:p></o:p> He doesn't say that He will give someone shraddha just because He wants it.<o:p></o:p> He explained in the shrutis how it happens.(See Brihad aranyaka Upanishad)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In the.Bhagavad-gita 9.29 He also says He behaves equaly to everyone samo 'haḿ sarva-bhūtesu up to the point where one starts to worship Him. samo 'haḿ sarva-bhūtesu na me dveṣyo 'sti na priyaḥ | ye bhajanti tu māḿ bhaktyā mayi te teṣu cāpy aham ||<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> From the moment someone starts to do bhajan to attain Him, things change.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> In this connection, for the Gaudiya Vaishnavas, which have been blessed to inherit the path of raga-anunga, mercy is of outmost importance<o:p></o:p> Though the direct cause for the awakening of greed for attaining the divine loving feelings of the most confident associates of Krishna in Vraja, is the hearing of narrations about His Vraja-pastimes, one must also give due consideration to the foundational cause of the phenomena. kRSNa tad bhakta kAruNya mAtra lobhaika hetukA | puSTi mArgatayA kaizcid iyaM rAgAnugocyate || (brs 1.2.309) “The only causes of the appearance of sacred greed are the mercy of Sri Krishna or the mercy of His devotee. Therefore some also call the path of raganuga-bhakti with the name pusti-marga (the path of grace).” The mercy of Sri Krishna or His devotees is the cause of that spiritual greed, which causes eligibility for the practice of raganuga-bhakti. sa ca bhagavat kRpA hetuko ‘nurAgI bhakta kRpA hetukaz ceti dvividhaH | tatra bhakta kRpA hetuko dvividhaH prAktana Adhunikaz ca | prAktanaH – paurva bhavika tAdRza bhakta kRpotthaH, AdhunikaH etaj janmAvadhi tAdRza bhakta kRpotthaH | Adye sati lobhAnantaraM tAdRza guru caraNAzrayaNam | dvitIye guru caraNAzrayAnantaraM lobha pravRttir bhavati || (rvc 1.6) There are said to be two causes for the appearance of the aforementioned greed, namely the mercy of God and the mercy of an anuragi devotee. There are again two kinds of mercy bestowed by a devotee, namely old and recent. Greed which is born from the mercy of such devotees of Sri Krishna in a previous life is known as old (praktana). Greed which is born from the mercy of a devotee in the present life is known as recent (adhunika). In the one in whom greed has awakened in a previous birth, his greed manifests and he then takes shelter of the feet of a raganugiya devotee guru. One whose greed is recent will first take shelter of the feet of a guru, after which his greed appears. <o:p></o:p>

when is guru to be rejected?

anadi replied to a topic in Spiritual Discussions

Dear brajeshwara, dandavat pranam, dervarji asked this question: If someone is claiming that one of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami's purports does not stand the proof against revealed writings, that charge ought to be backed up with some principle example. That example with Karma came up by chance in a discussion with CBrahma, where he used a statement of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami as the absolute evidence. Many people use to think that whatever he wrote is the absolute truth, but many thigs were circumstancial, as you also admit. You can see the whole context under: http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/spiritual-discussions/435055-perfection-life.html <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p>

when is guru to be rejected?

anadi replied to a topic in Spiritual Discussions

Dear brajeshwar, dandavat pranam, You said: It's not chance, but the will of the jiva that he was in that place at that time. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p>But</o:p> The will of the jiva, that he was in that place at that time, was the chance to see the sadhus, temples, smell the incense, and bathe in the Ganges You also said: It's by the will of the Lord that he sees the sadhus, temples, smells the incense, and bathes in the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comGanges</st1:place>.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p>you also said:</o:p> <st1:place w:st="on">Ganges</st1:place>.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> But that would mean that the Lord would favor one and another not. <o:p></o:p> Sri Krishna says in Bhagavad-gita 9.29 that He behaves equaly to everyone samo 'haḿ sarva-bhūteṣu up to the point where one starts to worship Him. <o:p></o:p> samo 'haḿ sarva-bhūteṣu na me dveṣyo 'sti na priyaḥ |<o:p></o:p> ye bhajanti tu māḿ bhaktyā mayi te teṣu cāpy aham ||<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p>

when is guru to be rejected?

anadi replied to a topic in Spiritual Discussions

qHari asked: How does Krsna then show His mercy this way (Madhya 22.47) to someone who will never meet a guru? my reply:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> There is no never. There's always a chance. Most dear Theist, dandavat pranam, you said Chance. I don't believe in chance myself, I believe in Krsna the Supreme Controller. but Jiva has her own iccha shakti – desiring power, and her own shatantra shakti – independence power. So, what is the meaning of chance in this conection? <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Say a person likes adventures, and for him India is a challange. <o:p></o:p> He does not go to India in search of spirituality.<o:p></o:p> But during the trip he may see sadhus and temples of the Lord, and smell the incence offered to the deities, and bathe in the Gage...<o:p></o:p> This is by chance, not by his will, or because Krishna controlls him.<o:p></o:p> How does Krishna see this? As small declarations of love, and He will reciprocate with similar small presents of love. And these will increase life after life. Krishna gives assurance that it is like this in the shastra.<o:p></o:p>

when is guru to be rejected?

anadi replied to a topic in Spiritual Discussions

Dear brajeshwara, Dandavat pranam<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> You said:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> I don't think that " ...when it is incomplete, ...it is innacurate" is a realistic assumption. <o:p></o:p> One sloka of the Bhagavad Gita standing alone may appear incomplete, but is it inaccurate?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Now,<o:p></o:p> It is important to know what the incompleteness and inaccuracy were referring to. <o:p></o:p> If someone gives a definition of ... saying karma, which is incomplete, than that definition is certainly inaccurate. <o:p></o:p> Similarly, let’s say one gives a definition from Bhagavad-gita which entails more slokas, but he uses only one shloka, than the definition given is incomplete and … as such inaccurate. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Under discussion was a definition not a sloka.<o:p></o:p> An incomplete definition is not accurate.<o:p></o:p>

when is guru to be rejected?

anadi replied to a topic in Spiritual Discussions

Dear qHari, Dandavat pranam,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> You said:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Only forgetfulness of unlimited sins committed over eons and eons since time immemorial could make someone think himself worthy of Krsna's mercy - that Krsna is BOUND to do anything…<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> But<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The fact that Krishna is bound to respect His word, when He says that He rewards everyone accordingly, it doesn’t mean one should “think himself worthy of Krsna's mercy" You should not jump to false conclusions. Krishna likes of being bound...by love. <o:p></o:p>

when is guru to be rejected?

anadi replied to a topic in Spiritual Discussions

Dear Devarsi dandavat pranam, ...when it is incomplete, ...it is inacurate. and ...people from some organizations use to quote the words of some personalities as "the last word" or "the absolute truth", like the mottos : "Prabhupada said", "Guru Y said" which is improper, as in the example under discussion. Please see: http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/spiritual-discussions/435055-perfection-life.html Please take also into consideration the inacurate translations of the verses quoted by qHari, which can be used as false evidence.

when is guru to be rejected?

anadi replied to a topic in Spiritual Discussions

Dear qHari, dandavat pranam, you asked: How does Krsna then show His mercy this way (Madhya 22.47) to someone who will never meet a guru? There is no never. There's always a chance. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is bound to give His mercy in the form of sadhu-sanga and guru diksha / shiksha to a fortunate jiva. (Of course He can do how He pleases. And that is why it has been said that it is by His mercy. But <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> always follows His words as revealed in the shastra, even if sometimes it seems He doesn’t)<o:p></o:p> The verse Madhya 22.47 says that the jiva must be fortunate to get <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s mercy. And that fortune of jiva is the good association, starting with:<o:p></o:p> 1. Association with the holy places <u1:p></u1:p>2. Association with the holy days <u1:p></u1:p>3. Association with bhakti paraphernalia (Tulasi, <st1:city u2:st="on"><st1:place u2:st="on">prasadam, Bhagavatam hearing, Holy Name hearing, </st1:place></st1:city><st1:city><st1:place>Temple</st1:place></st1:city> of the Lord) <u1:p></u1:p>4. Association with persons engaged in acts of divine devotion.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> This good associations bound <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> to give sadhu sanga and direct instruction through guru. He must be truthful when He says, that He rewards everyone accordingly. Krishna is always truthfull, because He is all love. ??? <o:p></o:p>

when is guru to be rejected?

anadi replied to a topic in Spiritual Discussions

Dear qHari dandavat pranam <o:p></o:p> You presented the verse CC Madhya 22.47<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> kRSNa yadi kRpA kare kona bhAgyavAne guru-antaryAmi-rUpe zikhAya Apane<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> and added: Yes, but the translation of kRSNa kRpA is quite direct:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Yes it's true...but the verse doesn’t say By the grace of Krsna one gets guru.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Here it is an accurate translation:<o:p></o:p> „If krishna kRSNa yadi shows mercy kRpA kare to some fortunate person kona bhAgyavAne He gives personally instructions zikhAya Apane under the form rUpe of guru guru and the supersoul antaryAmi.”<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> I previouly said:<o:p></o:p> But everything comes from Krishna and by His grace So, what makes <st1:place w:st="Krishna</st1:place"> Krishna</st1:place> give somebody bhakti and somebody mukti or the association of a particular type of sadhus?<o:p></o:p> Please read the previous post.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Mercy has a cause. The humble Vaishnavas say: “by the causeless mercy…”<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p>

when is guru to be rejected?

anadi replied to a topic in Spiritual Discussions

Dear theist dandavat pranam,<o:p></o:p> You said<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The specific quote he (anadi) objected to was "By the grace of krsna one gets guru and by the grace of guru one gets Krsna". Apparently the thinking is, we cannot be sure Srila Prabhupada was speaking according to GV Siddhanta.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Dear theist Dandavat pranam, <o:p></o:p> this is not quite accurate.<o:p></o:p> I will try to refresh your memory:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> 1. You said that in order to accept a guru, one should have the confirmation of caitya guru, and without His confirmation one should not accept any guru.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> I said that this is not Gaudiya Siddhanta, and that according to Srila Vishvanatha Cakravarti <o:p></o:p> shraddha - faith is the prerequisite to accept a guru.<o:p></o:p> Accepting of guru has nothing to do with any confirmation of caitya guru as you put it “Don't place your faith in or give your heart to anyone that Caitya guru has not confirmed to you....”<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> 2.Than you said:<o:p></o:p> Now where did that faith come from? It came from Krsna in the heart (Caitya-guru) just like he says in the Gita, <o:p></o:p> "I make his faith steady so that he may worship..."<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> But the verse you quoted from bhagavad-gita 7.21 for Caitya-guru as the giver of transcendental faith – shraddha was not sustaining your allegation: <u1></u1>"Whatever devotee with faith (bhaktaḥ śraddhaya) in some demigod desires to worship him, I surely make his faith steady (acalāḿ śraddhāḿ )." <u1></u1> From your replies it seems you didn’t want to acknowledge, the verse you quoted doesn’t support the "principle" you stated: faith comes from Krishna:<o:p></o:p> "By the grace of Krsna one gets guru, by the grace of guru one gets Krsna." <o></o>A well known saying by Srila Prabhupada. Suo compact & concise in summarizing the whole essence of bhakti-yoga that I call it a sutra.<o:p></o:p> <o> Your commentary to that “saying“ was also improper, <o:p></o:p> as I showed in the post from 02-04-2007, 01:45 AM<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The saying By the grace of Krsna one gets guru, doesn't say that faith comes from Krishna<st1:place w:st="Krishna</st1:place">.</st1:place><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> 3. Than you proposed another evidence to prove that shraddha comes from <st1:place w:st=" /><st1:place w:st=" on="">Krishna.</st1:place></o> <o:p></o:p> But everything comes from <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, and by His grace. So, what makes <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> give somebody bhakti and somebody mukti or the association of a particular type of sadhus?<o:p></o:p> It is one’s acquired faith, which make one to worship Krishna in a particular way, and <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> rewards one accordingly.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> And faith? Faith is due to association. Due to one’s particular association one gets a particular type of faith.<o:p></o:p> This is elucidated in(Brihan Naradia Purana 4.33)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> bhaktis tu bhagavad bhakta saGgena parijAyate | sat-saGga prApyate pumbhiH sukRtaiH pUrva saJcite || The inclination for devine devotion is awakened by the association with the devottes of the Lord And the association with the pure devotees (SAT SANGA) can be attained by the accumulated effect of SUKRITI (eternal pious activities) performed over uncountable life times. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> There are for type of preliminary association which are counted as bhakti sukritis that bring one in the association of bhakta sadhu:<o:p></o:p> 1. Association with the holy places<o:p></o:p> 2. Association with the holy days<o:p></o:p> 3. Association with bhakti paraphernalia (Tulasi, <st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Temple</st1:place></st1:city> of the Lord)<o:p></o:p> 4. Association with persons engaged in acts of divine devotion.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Association in one’s life is everything, than according one’s association one gets a certain type of faith. Faith is attachment.<o:p></o:p> So because of one’s association one earns some kind of attachment.<o:p></o:p> Attachment is consciousness.<o:p></o:p> So according one’s association one gets a certain type of consciousness. Consciousness is love.<o:p></o:p> And in this connection the transcendental faith is the atomic fraction of transcendental love – premA. This transcendental faith or divine love is the intrinsec nature of the soul, but is awackened by the preliminary associations which are counted as bhakti sukriti. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p>

when is guru to be rejected?

anadi replied to a topic in Spiritual Discussions

Dear qHari dandavat pranam, you gave this quotation from CC Madhya 19.151 brahmANDa bhramite kona bhAgyavAn jIva guru-kRSNa-prasAde pAya bhakti-latA-bIja <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> "... one who is very fortunate gets an opportunity to associate with a bona fide spiritual master by the grace of KRSNa. ..<o:p></o:p> But the verse does not say that. Here it is an accurate translation:<o:p></o:p> Wandering bhramite through the universe brahmANDa some – kona most fortunate bhAgyavAn souls jIva by the grace prasAde of the spiritual master and Krishna guru-kRSNa get pAya the seed – bIja of the flower of devotional service bhakti-latA<o:p></o:p>

when is guru to be rejected?

anadi replied to a topic in Spiritual Discussions

Anadi wrote "They must stand the proof against revealed writings" Reply: If someone is claiming that one of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami's purports does not stand the proof against revealed writings, that charge ought to be backed up with some principle example. Dear bhakta Devarsi Here it is a quote given for the elucidation of the meaning of karma, which says: Prabhupada: Karma means fruitive work. Just like you are laboring for some wages. You get your wages. Similarly, this material world our work is rewarded. Good work is rewarded with good benefit and bad work is punished. This is the law of karma. Answer: Well, this definition of karma is not accurate, and may be quite confusing. Bhagavan Sri Krishna says that there are three types of activities: Karma, vikarma and akarma. karmaṇo hy api boddhavyaḿ / boddhavyaḿ ca vikarmaṇaḥ akarmaṇaś ca boddhavyaḿ / gahanā karmaṇo gatiḥ (Bhagavat-gita 4.17) Karma, vikarma and akarma should be distinctively understood, because the karmic principle is profound. Any type of these activities bear fruits, or are fruitive,… but not all are karma. So, to say only that “Karma means fruitive work ” is not entirely correct, because it doesn’t say anything about 1. the quality of the activity and 2. the quality of the fruit. According to Sri Krishna, the quality of karma is that entails activities executed according varna-ashrama dharma: cātur-varṇyaḿ mayā sṛṣṭaḿ / guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ tasya kartāram api māḿ / viddhy akartāram avyayam Bhagavat-gita 4.13 According to one's own qulities (guna) and the work (karma) associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable. and the quality of the fruit of karma is that pleases the Supreme Lord Hari, as stated in Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.13 ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā / varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya / saḿsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam O best among the twice-born, one achieves the highest perfection (saMsiddhir) by discharging the duties prescribed for one's own occupation according to social divisions (varNa) and religious orders of life (ashrama) thus pleasing (toSaNam) the Supreme Lord (Hari – the Well Wisher of His devotees) In this connection Srila Rupa Gosvami talking about karmis says: karmibhyaḥ parito hareḥ priyatayā vyaktiḿ yayur jñāninas tebhyo jñāna-vimukta-bhakti-paramāḥ premaika-niṣṭhās tataḥ tebhyas tāḥ paśu-pāla-pańkaja-dṛśas tābhyo 'pi sā rādhikā preṣṭhā tadvad iyaḿ tadīya-sarasī tāḿ nāśrayet kaḥ kṛtī More dear - priyatayā than the karims- karmibhya to the Lord - hareḥ in all respects – parito have attained – yayur distinction - vyaktiḿ the brahma jnanis – jñāninas. So, as one can see, karmis are dear to Lord and this refers to the ones who follow varna-ashrama dharma, and in this way pleasing Him. The other persons whose activities are vikarma or akarma cannot be classified as karmis. Karma follows naimitk dharma - the duties according one's acquired material nature (not the eternal nature of the soul - nitya dharma), karma refers to vedic ocupational duty according the social class (varna) and vedic spiritual order (ashram).

when is guru to be rejected?

anadi replied to a topic in Spiritual Discussions

Dear theist dandavat pranam I said:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <TABLE class=MsoNormalTable style="WIDTH: 100%; mso-cellspacing: 0cm; mso-padding-alt: 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 0; mso-yfti-firstrow: yes; mso-yfti-lastrow: yes"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 18pt; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 18pt; BACKGROUND: #e0e0e0; PADDING-BOTTOM: 4.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 4.5pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1pt solid; mso-border-alt: solid #666666 .75pt">Dear theist dandavat pranam, the revealed books are not "books" but eternal personalities. And they are first. <o:p></o:p> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Your answer: Whatever you like to think prabhu. The books giving rise to the personalities who wrote them does not seem reasonable to me.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> But <o:p></o:p> I think you misunderstood, what I have said:<o:p></o:p> The different eternal transcendental personalities, which are personifications of the eternal transcendental knowledge are first, not the books written by a Rishi.<o:p></o:p> Elucidation:<o:p></o:p> Sabdha or the transcendental sound from the transcendental world is the source of knowledge, which in kali yuga takes the written form - shastra. <o:p></o:p> Some rishis according their qualification can here/see a more or just a particular shabdha related to a particular perfection of life. <o:p></o:p>

when is guru to be rejected?

anadi replied to a topic in Spiritual Discussions

Dear theist dandavat pranam, the revealed books are not "books" but eternal personalities. And they are first. also the context was/is that: Many charismatic svamis write commentaries on revealed scriptures, and their followers pretend these svamis would be directly from the spiritual world and their commentaries too.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> Are their commentaries really “revealed scriptures”? Are they from the spiritual world?<o:p></o:p> Take for example Bhaktivedanta Svami and see… whose commentaries he used for “his own” commentaries in the translation he did. <o:p></o:p> His commentaries, his letters, are not his "revelation", they must stand the proof against shastra.<o:p></o:p> What to say about your commentaries to his commentaries. Or "my" commentaries... <o:p></o:p> They must stand the proof against revealed writings.

when is guru to be rejected?

anadi replied to a topic in Spiritual Discussions

Ja-in (Ja + Nein). I am like a disciple of his disciples. I study the commentaries of Ananta Das babaji, on different books of the Gosvamis of Vraja. I haven't got yet any formal initiation in a traditional gaudiya sampradaya. Now I think, I would like first to live with my guru over a long period of time, to see if we can accept eachother in the relation guru-disciple. Some people do not need it. Now, I think I do.

when is guru to be rejected?

anadi replied to a topic in Spiritual Discussions

Dear theist Dandavat pranam You said<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> And what is the source of the sastra if not the authorized representatives of Krsna? Did those books write themselves? What we call sastra is nothing but the penned realizations of realized souls.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Dear theist <o:p></o:p> It seems quite logical, but the source of the sastra is Krishna Himself. This Knowledge flows through the chain of disciplic succession, but it is not the source of the shastra. Erläuterung <o:p></o:p> Many charismatic svamis write commentaries on revealed scriptures, and their followers pretend these svamis would be directly from the spiritual world and their commentaries too.<o:p></o:p> Are their commentaries really “revealed scriptures”? Are they from the spiritual world?<o:p></o:p> Take for example Bhaktivedanta Svami and see… whose commentaries he used for “his own” commentaries in the translation he did. <o:p></o:p> His commentaries, his letters, are not his revelation, they must stand the proof against shastra.<o:p></o:p> What to say about your commentaries to his commentaries. Or "my" commentaries... <o:p></o:p> They must stand the proof against revealed writings.<o:p></o:p>

when is guru to be rejected?

anadi replied to a topic in Spiritual Discussions

Dear Sucandra,dandavat pranama according to Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta,"the authorized bona fide representative of the guru parampara" is not the source of evidence . The source of proper evidence is shastra. Guru should teach according shastra. PramANa or evidence is the means to determine the authenticity of an object. PramAtA yenArthaM pramiNoti tad eva pramANam. Srimat JIva GosvAmIpAda writes in Sarva-saMvAdinI: yadyapi pratyakSAnumAna-zabdArSopamANArthApatty-abhAva-sambhavaitihya-ceSTAkhyAni daza pramANAni viditAni, tathApi bhrama-pramAda-vipralipsA-karaNApATava-doSa-rahita-vacanAtmakaH zabda eva mUla-pramANam – “Generally there are ten types of evidence, namely pratyakSa, anumAna, zabda, ArSa, upamAna, arthApatti, abhAva, sambhava, aitihya, and ceSTA. zabda, or zruti, however, is accepted as the root evidence because it is free from the four defects of bhrama, pramAda, vipralipsA and karaNApATava." Read more:http://spirituality.forumup.de/viewtopic.php?t=27&mforum=spirituality As long as "theist's quoting Srila Prabhupada" is followed by wrong interpretations which he sustains by improper evidence from smriti, I can hardly accept them as the ultimate conclusion. In this conection see my last posts. PS My guru of the heart belongs to the disciplic succession descending from Sri Nityananda Prabhu and Srimati Jahnava Mata through the descendants of Sri Dhananjaya Pandit. Jiva Goswami explains that taking shelter of the spiritual master is a second sadhu sanga, for the awakening of faith, or a belief in the purport of the scriptures, arises out of an earlier contact with devotees and hearing from them. After such faith has awakened, and one realizes that devotional service is one’s only duty in life, then one takes shelter of a genuine guru and receives instructions about the various devotional practices (ādau prathame sādhu-sanga-śāstra-śravana-dvārā śraddhā tad-artha-viśvāsah. tatah prathamānantaram dvitīyah sādhu-sango bhajana-rīti-śikSā-nibandhanah || Durgama-sangamanī 1.4.15).

when is guru to be rejected?

anadi replied to a topic in Spiritual Discussions

Dear theist dandavat pranam,<o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p> This is not good. It sounds quite prejudieced. One should be open to analize the evidence the "oposed" party is presenting The point was that your statements were not sustained by proper evidence. So, is quite hard to accept them as truths?

when is guru to be rejected?

anadi replied to a topic in Spiritual Discussions

Dear theist dandavat pranam,<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> First I must thank you for helping me to learn.<o:p></o:p> You wrote:<o:p></o:p> "By the grace of Krsna one gets guru, by the grace of guru one gets Krsna."<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> A well known saying by Srila Prabhupada. Suo compact & concise in summarizing the whole essence of bhakti-yoga that I call it a sutra.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> But This “well known saying by Srila Prabhupada” is no sutra at all.<o:p></o:p> Your idea is that it would summarize the essence of bhakti-yoga,<o:p></o:p> but according Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta as delineated by Srila Rupa Gosvamin in Bhakti-rasamRta-sindhu, bhakti is defined as such <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> anyAbhilASitA-zUnyaM jJana-karmAdy-anAvRtam<o:p></o:p> AnukUlyena kRSNAnuzilanaM bhaktir uttamA (Bhakti-rasamRta-sindhu 1.1.11)<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> And the essence of bhakti or the svarupa lakshana of bhakti is AnukUlyena kRSNAnuzilanaM – the cultivation of activities (zilanaM) which give Krishna pleasure, or happiness – that which is favorable (AnukUlyena) for … Krishna.<o:p></o:p>

when is guru to be rejected?

anadi replied to a topic in Spiritual Discussions

Dear theist, dandavat pranam, "I" said: From your reply it seems you didn’t acknowledge, the verse you quoted doesn’t support the principle you stated.<o:p></o:p> Your answer: I disagree. No need to discuss it for days. We disagree that's all.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p>But Just saying that you disagree, doesn’t make the verse 7.2 from Bhagavad-gita an evidence for your belief.<o:p></o:p>

when is guru to be rejected?

anadi replied to a topic in Spiritual Discussions

Dear teist dandavat pranam,<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> You said:<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> I am simply trying to repeat the message found in this sutra. "By the grace of KRSNA one gets guru and by the grace of guru one gets Krsna." Can you please give the exact quotation of the verse and we will analyze it.<o:p></o:p>

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when is guru to be rejected?

when is guru to be rejected?

when is guru to be rejected?

when is guru to be rejected?

when is guru to be rejected?

when is guru to be rejected?

when is guru to be rejected?

when is guru to be rejected?

when is guru to be rejected?

when is guru to be rejected?

when is guru to be rejected?

when is guru to be rejected?

when is guru to be rejected?

when is guru to be rejected?

when is guru to be rejected?

when is guru to be rejected?

when is guru to be rejected?

when is guru to be rejected?

when is guru to be rejected?

when is guru to be rejected?

when is guru to be rejected?

when is guru to be rejected?

when is guru to be rejected?

when is guru to be rejected?

when is guru to be rejected?