anadi

<o:p> </o:p> Guest of Conviction <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Dear Guest of Conviction,<o:p></o:p> please take your time and read slowly what I wrote.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> You wrote that I am confused, and as evidence you brought the purport to Srimad Bhagavatam 3.5.4.of a certain Vaisnava Acharya.<o:p></o:p> But …as I gave evidence from Rupa Gosvami’s Bhakti Rasamrita Sindu and Krishna dasa Kaviraja Gosvami’s Caitanya Caritamrita, this idea, well spread in Gaudiya Mat as well as in ISKCon, is a wrong siddhanta.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> The practice of vaidhi bhakti does not help the neophyte devotee to rise to the stage of raganuga bhakti.<o:p></o:p> They are two totally different ways of sadhana (spiritual practice).<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> It is not required to first get purified by vaidhi bhakti, and when purified you can start raganunga sadhana. Raganuga sadhana bhakti is in itself so powerful that one quickly gets free from any worldly attachments.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> vaidhI-rAgAnugA-mArga-bhedena parikIrtitaH | dvividhaH khalu bhAvo’tra sAdhanAbhinivezajaH || (brs 1.3.7) “The paths of vaidhi and raganuga are known to be separate from each other. Engagement <o:p></o:p> in these two forms of sadhana (practice ) certainly awakens two distinct varieties of bhava.”<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p> <o:p></o:p> Rupa Gosvami does not say that Raganunga Sadhana Bhakti need the help of Vaidhy Bhakti sadhana as a prerequisite for it.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> BV Narayan M says: …, as chanting, remembering, and performing kirtana cleanse these anarthas, all the pastimes of Krsna will automatically enter your hearts<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> But this is a wrong siddhanta: if you don’t hear /read about the pastimes of the Lord with the gopis, how can you remember them, as on that stage of vaidhi sadhana bhakti you have no realization of them? <o:p></o:p> You should hear/ read about them <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> says cleary that according what you remember (according what you heard shravanam and discussed (should be kirtanam)) during your sadhana (daily spiritual practice), that is what you get. According that what you worship/remember/meditate on, you will get the result.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> In this connection Srila Raghunatha das referring to the kamanuga type of raganuga sadhana bhakti says in the 11-th verse of his Manah-shiksha:<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> samaM zri-rUpeNa smara vivza rAdhA giribhRtor<o:p></o:p> vraja sAkSAt sevAlabhana vidhaye tad gaNa yujoH<o:p></o:p> tad ijyAkhyA dhyAna zravaNa nati paJcAmRtam idaM <o:p></o:p> dhayan nItyA govardhanam anudinaM tvaM bhaja manaH<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> O mind manaH for the method vidhaye of obtaining labhana direct service sAkSAt sevA to Radha-Krishna rAdhA giribhRtoH who are absorbed in amorous desires smara vivaza with Their (loving) associates in Vraja tad gaNa yujoH vraje as Rupa Gosvami taught zri rUpena samam drink dhayan this nectar consisting of five ingredients idam paJcAmRta <o:p></o:p> worship Them tad ijya <o:p></o:p> describe Their pastimes and qualities akhyA <o:p></o:p> meditate on Them dhyAna <o:p></o:p> hear about Their pastimes and qualities zravaNa and <o:p></o:p> bow to Them nati. <o:p></o:p> (Also) one should worship bhaja always nItyA constantly anudinaM Govardhan govardhanam <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> You can also remember that in Jaiva Dharma is recounted as Sannyas Thakur in a few days was revealed his siddha deha by his spirirtual master by which he could practice raganunga bhakti, without previously practicing vaidhi bhakti. He practiced the sadhana of advaitins.<o:p></o:p> His qualification to enter raganuga bhakti was his greed to attain ecstatic feelings similar to those he saw by chance in a Gaudiya Vaishnava. By this greed he sought the association of gaudiya vaishnavas, (as long as one does not practice raganunga bhakti, one is not really a gaudiya vaishnava) and very quickly got into raganuga bhakti.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> It might be that one can not see such ecstatic feelings with the eyes, but one can see them through the ears (that is why one should hear/ read about them), and some greed may arise.<o:p></o:p>

The guest of DVD wrote:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Dear Guest of DVD<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> I am not against…wrong siddhanta, like the inventions of new percepts as in the case of the new labeled DVD instructions given by your “Srila Prabhupada”, although it looks like I am. I try to present siddhanta according to the words of Sri Caitanya and His empowered representatives from Vrindavan, by comparing how the new instrunctions go against the original ones.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Of course you will follow your “Srila Prabhupada”, and this is not bad, than siddhanta says also that one should follow the instructions of one’s guru, <o:p></o:p> but he is not my guru, and I am not obliged to follow, and under circumstances one should try to follow shuddha bhakti.by practicing sadhana bhakti, not something else, and eventually one should try to associate with persons which can help one in one’s attempt to go deep into the core of gaudiya vaishnavism, studying the mood of the eternal residents of Vraja as described in the works of the Gosvamis from Vrindavan and their rasika followers. 2. Please feel free to use my quotes that have been confusing, so that we may remove the confusions.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>The guest of DVD wrote: <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Dear Guest of DVD <o:p> </o:p> I have to apologies again for being violent, … I shouldn’t contradict you, but these purports ... are against Gaudiya bhakti siddhanta. <o:p></o:p> 1. Through vaidhi- (sadhana)-bhakti one cannot attain raganunga-sadhana-bhakti.<o:p></o:p> 2. Vaidhi-(sadhana)-bhakti and raganuga –(sadhana)-bhakti are two different types of sadhana, <o:p></o:p> Vaiddhi is not the cause of Raga.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> The above purports go against that what Rupa Gosvmi wrote in Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu 1.3.7::<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> vaidhI-rAgAnugA-mArga-bhedena parikIrtitaH | dvividhaH khalu bhAvo’tra sAdhanAbhinivezajaH || (brs 1.3.7) “The paths of vaidhi and raganuga are known to be separate from each other. Engagement in these two forms of sadhana (practice ) certainly awakens two distinct varieties of bhava.”<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> vidhi-bhaktye pArSada-dehe vaikuNThete yAya || (cc 2.24.87) “Through vidhi-bhakti, one will attain the form of an associate in Vaikuntha.”<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> aizvarya-jJAne vidhi-bhajana kariyA | vaikuNThake yAya catur-vidha mukti pAJA || (cc 1.3.17) “Those who worship according to scriptural commandments, being aware of the Lord's superhuman prowess, attain the four kinds of liberation in Vaikuntha.”<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> rAga-bhaktye vraje svayaM-bhagavAne pAya || (cc 2.24.85) “Through raga-bhakti, one will attainthe original Lord Himself in Vraja.”<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> rAgAnuga-mArge tAGre bhaje yei jana | sei-jana pAya vraje vrajendra-nandana || (cc 2.8.221) “He who worships on the path of raganuga will attain Vrajendra-nandana (Sri Krishna) in Vraja.”<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> sakala jagate more kare vidhi-bhakti | vidhi-bhaktye vraja-bhAva pAite nAhi zakti || aizvarya-jJAnete saba jagat mizrita | aizvarya-zithila-preme nAhi mora prIta || (cc 1.3.15-16) “Everyone in this world worships Me through vidhi-bhakti. Vidhi-bhakti has no power for attaining the feelings of Vraja. The devotion of the world is mixed with knowledge of My divine prowess. I do not delight in love diluted with prowess.” <o:p> </o:p>

Dear Caturbahu das, dandavat pranam,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> I deeply regret that I disturbed you with my commentary about bhakti siddhanta according Gaudiya Vaishnavism.<o:p></o:p> Of course the following the orders of one’s Guru are of utmost importance, and the introducing of daivi varnashram dharma is most exalted.<o:p></o:p> I wish all the persons engaged in the introducing of daivi varnashram dharma all success, and please forgive my violent presentation of siddhanta.<o:p></o:p>

Dear Caturbahu das dandavat pranam, You said: But <o:p></o:p> I didn’t say you were “so” offensive to BV Narayan M, but …according your statement you were as offensive as …”between family members”, although one can see without doubt your some aggressive attitude against him, <o:p></o:p> “Do not be fooled by the johnny come latelies.” and<o:p></o:p> “Watch out, beware!! the pretenders are coming!!”, <o:p></o:p> what to say about the “great respect” you pretend you have, when you talked about him<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Remember, you said: “And you have used a statement I used to talk about my cousin Godbrother <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<st1:City w:st=" /><st1:State w:st="on">NM</st1:State>. … I spoke out of great respect for my older cousin, ….” <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> You also said: But<o:p></o:p>As much as I know the Iskcon and Gaudiya Mat should be part of the family of Mahaprabhu, the familiy of Gaudiya Vaishnavas. They shouldn’t separate from Mahaprabhu and His teachings, … and invent a new system of sadhana. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> You also said:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p> This statement is due to some lacking knowledge of Gaudiya Bhakti Siddhanta:<o:p></o:p> - the practicing of sadhana bhakti makes one pure and more than that, it brings one to the level of bhAvA bhakti, not the practicing of DVD.<o:p></o:p> - Varnashram-dharma is a hindrance for one’s sadhana bhakti, not a help, one should endeavor to gradually get out of the society rules, if one wants to follow the teachings of Sri Caitanya. - Varnashram-dharma accompanied by harinama and Deity worship – which was labeled as daivi varnashram dharma is not part of the sadhana bhakti, and one may wonder why one does not make any progress following that path... <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p> Srila Raghunatha das Gosvami says also in his Teachings to the Mind that one should not endeavor for varNashram dharma as described in the scriptures.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> na dharmaM nAdharmaM zruti-gaNa niruktaM kila kuru<o:p></o:p> vraje rAdhA-kRSNa pracura-paricaryAm iha tanu<o:p></o:p> zacI-sUnuM nandIzvara-pati-sutatve guru-varaM<o:p></o:p> mukunda-preSThatve smara param ajasraM nanu manaH<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> O mind manaH indeed kila do not perform na kuru varnashrma dharma dharmam as mentioned niruktam in the revealed scriptures – zruti-gaNa nor activities against dharma adharmaM na rather param perform tanu profuse pracura service paricaryAm for Radha-Krishna rAdhA-kRSNa here iha in Vraja-dhama vraje and certainly nanu always ajasram remember (meditate upon) smara the son of Saci (Sri Caitanya) zacI-sUnuM as the son of the master of Nanda-grAma (Nanda Baba - the father of Krishna) nandIzvara-pati-sutatve and guru guru-varaM as being as most dear preSThatve to the Giver of Liberation (the Lord) mukunda.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> rUpa-raghunAtha-pade haibe Akuti<o:p></o:p> kabe hAma bujhaba se yugala-priti <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> When will I eagerly follow the path of RUpa and RaghunAtha <o:p></o:p> By their instructions I will be able to understand the sacred love of the divine Couple RAdhA Krishna.<o:p></o:p>

Dear Caturbahu das dandavat pranam,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p> You said:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> And you have used a statement I used to talk about my cousin />Godbrother <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<st1:City w:st=" /><st1:State w:st="on">NM</st1:State>. This again is family. I can say not YOU. You have no right to jump in the middle as an outsider and make dirogatory comments based on what I have said. I spoke out of great respect for my older cousin, knowing him to be more advanced than me. But I speak because I have to say in MY family.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> But as I looked again on your statement, that I used, it seems to me that your “great respect”, is not so obvious.<o:p></o:p> Just look again:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> “This is the same NM that just a few yrs ago said we don't need interest in DVD? Wow, what an about face, I saw a transcript of a lecture/conversation for NM where he sited Ramananda Raya's conversation with Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as evedence that we would reject the idea of DVD, Isa das, one of NM sadhika's, showed me the lecture transcript as the position that NM took on the subject. Bas. Even when I tryed to question Isa and show him the standard of Srila Prabhupada on the subject of DVD Isa would not have a converstion and shut me out saying it is what it is. He showed me, I read it, that's what it is. I have trouble trusting the DVD expertise of some one that is just now getting it after so many yrs NM was a devotee in the Gaudiya Math. Just now he is getting? When I've been saying this for 35 yrs to everyone I meet, karmi or devotee. Now Gopavrindapal das is interested? He made so much fun of me in LA temple, back in the day, it was sickening and I took it like a dog because he presented himself as a brahaman, I wanted to be a good submissive ksatriya, oh man what an idiot I was. Never again! Look at him now kissing up to this pretender make show of support of DVD. Blah, Blah Do not be fooled by the johnny come latelies.These people are looking to get on a band wagon. Just a couple of yrs ago they were all saying 'nonsense, we do not do DVD, Your are monkey stool Caturbahu we reject you and your insane DVD ideas' Watch out, beware!! the pretenders are coming!! they will give something different than Srila Prabhupada. And you will again be cheated, with intangible results mostly based in illusion as your gift for blind faith. I remenber you Gopavrndapal, like an elephant, and how you treated me when I would talk to you about Srila Prabhupada's order to create DVD in ISKCON. I remember YOU, Gubber-vrinda-pile.”<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">BV</st1:City> <st1:State w:st="on">NM</st1:State></st1:place> interest in varna-ashram dharma seems to be more ... politics. Some of his disciples learnt me to say every morning the first three verses of the Bhagavatam, and since than I keep on saying them as part of the sadhan. You know the second verse declarations, concerning one’s dharma – occupational duty, are very strong: <o:p></o:p> dharmah ̣projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇāḿ satāḿ<o:p></o:p> vedyaḿ vāstavam atra vastu śivadam ́tāpa-trayon mūlanam<o:p></o:p> śrīmad-bhāgavate mahā-muni-kṛte kiḿ vā parair īśvaraḥ<o:p></o:p> sadyo hṛdy avarudhyate 'tra kṛtibhiḥ śuśrūṣubhis tat-kṣaṇāt<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Herein (in Srimad Bhagavatam) atra the occupational duties dharmaḥ which are covered by material fruitive intentions (varNa ashram) kaitavaḥ are completely rejected projjhita<o:p></o:p> and the highest knowledge paramaḥ vedyam for the pious ones nirmatsarāṇām satām (about) the truly vāstavam all auspicious śivadam Object vastu (the Supreme Sweet Lord) causing the uprooting unmūlanam of the threefold miseries tāpa-traya has been presented kṛte (as) the beautiful śrīmat opulent (and sweet) Lord bhāgavate by the great sage (Vyāsadeva) mahā-muni.<o:p></o:p> What kim others paraiḥ is to be needed vā ? By hearing śuśrūṣubhiḥ this śrīmat bhāgavate) quickly sadyaḥ the Supreme Lord īśvaraḥ will be arrested avarudhyate in the heart hṛdi by a pious one kṛtibhiḥ at once tat-kṣaṇāt<o:p></o:p>.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> And this why this is the main scripture that Mahaprabhu accepted and wanted to convey.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> So… "what is missing in the world is Hari Katha", … and everything will be all right.<o:p></o:p>

Dear Caturbahu das, dandavat pranam<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> You wrote: For the followers of this line, Gaudiya-Math and ISKCON, we do not care for your muni wranglings. We do as our Guru's say to us. Your points are nothing for us to address directly because it is only fault finding our Gurus conclutions and of no more importance i.e. NONE!<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> but<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> What I presented as evidence to show that varna-ashram dharma has nothing to do with bhakti, and should be discarded, are not “muni wranglings”, but gaudiya bhakti siddhanta.<o:p></o:p> If you learn siddhnata, you cannot be cheated. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> The method by which one can attain love for <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is called sadhana-bhakti. But one should pursue the very same path by which the previous bhaktas attained love for the Lord, by which the Lord Himself becomes attracted to the devotee and reveals Himself.<o:p></o:p> The reason for this is that the path which has already been chalked out by the chain of realized souls is free from all distress and hardship, and it is the cause of all auspiciousness.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> sa mRgyaH zreyasAM hetuH panthAH sastApa-varjitaH |<o:p></o:p> anavApta-zramaM pUrve yena santaH pratasthire || (Bhakti-rasamRta-sindhu 1.2.100), from the Skanda Purana<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> No path can be properly ascertained by any one individual. All the previous realized babajis following in consecutive succession, one after another, have made the path of gaudiya bhakti-yoga neat and clean and free from obstruction. They have eliminated all the petty obstacles and disturbances along the path and made it very easy and free from fear. Therefore we must take support from the specific path which they have laid. This is in itself a limb of bhakti - following the path of those who attained love divine.- sAdhu-mArgAnusAraH, not following varanashram dharma.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> That is why siddhanta is very important.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> siddhānta baliyā citte nā kara alasa |<o:p></o:p> ihā ha-ite kṛṣṇe lāge sudṛḍha mānasa || (c cAdi 2.117)<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Do not be lazy nā kara alasa to take into consideration baliyā in your mind citte / or to have attachment citte for the perfect conclusions (of the shastra) siddhānta. <o:p></o:p> By this (attachment) ihā ha-ite the mind mānasa becomes firmly sudṛḍha fixed lāge on <st1:place>Krishna </st1:place>kṛṣṇe.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p>

Dear shakti fan , dandavat pranam,<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> 1.You gave Swami B.V. Narayan's Instructions on Venice Beach Temple as an example that he don't want to introduce Varnasram dharma, but shuddha bhakti, ... but he alegedly tries to do both. 2.You cannot endeavor for both, if you want to practice shuddha bhakti.. He himself acknowledged in this case that practicing varna-ashram dharma is detrimental for bhakti,– he forgot to specify: always! , and also please look the whole theory, as will be, and it is/ was understood and practiced by his followers (see also the case of the “Prabhupadanugas”), and here it is the hardcore:<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> 3.Can you please quote where Srila Sanatana Gosvami in his Hari-bhakti-vilasa, speak that to practice bhakti one needs a daiva-varnasrama dharma?<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> 2.In which scripture is spoken that previously was established daiva-varnsarama dharma instead of Varnashram dharma? <o:p></o:p> 4. Or Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati had come to "reestablish" something that never existed, and Mahaprabhu rejected it in its true form: varnasrama-dharma. <o:p></o:p> 5. There is no word of re - establishing a daiva-varnasrama which never existed, than if you read Mahabharata you will see that Arjuna did’t want to compete with Karna because he was not born as a Kshatria King, and was considered the son of a suta, not because Karna would not had the qualities of a Kshatria. This is not an invention of smarta Brahmanism that would have created an alliance with the traditional gaudiya vaishnavas (that follow the tradition of gaudiya bhakti as always practiced), as Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati pretended.<o:p></o:p> Definition of smarta:<u1:p></u1:p> smarta - one of a group of brahmans who uphold nonsectarian orthodoxy according to the Shankara Vedanta <st1:place></st1:place><u1:p></u1:p> Adi Shankara siddhanta is followed by Smarta Brahmins<u1:p></u1:p>. The three sampradayas (traditions) of Brahmins, especially in South India are the Smarta sampradaya, the Sri-vaishnava sampradaya and the Madhva sampradaya.<o:p></o:p>

Dear shakti fan dandavat pranam, as I wrote you replied: 1. this is only propaganda - read Gaudiya Vaishnava JIvani or the Saints of Vraja, and you will see the true. 2. GuestCBhakti wrote in the post#3, "in the beginning of thie thred": So, you can see that in the beginning of his coming in the west BV Naranyan preached shuddha bhakti, not varnashram dharma. This siddhanta that I present now, I learnt it by his grace. He also said that one should discard a guru that not teach shuddha bhakti. The mater of fact I found many of his ideas in the books published by Pandit Ananta Das Babaji, But those books like Sri Sri Sikastakam and Raga Vartma Candrika of Pandit Ananta Das Babaji were published before the same later books of BV Naranaya M..

Dear BestGuest <o:p> </o:p> You quoted something…?<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> <o:p></o:p> This is well know Iskcon propaganda.<o:p></o:p> In the Gaudiya Mat they still award/ed babaji vesha for the ones that wanted to retire from the society and live in a secluded place only in the company of a few like minded babajis, that concentrate all power in bhajana. For the other ones that want to preach in the society they gave/give sannyasa. <!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> And you added <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p>Reply:<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> It might be that there are many persons who call themselves baba, or baba-ji, but never accepted babaji-vesha from a traditional Gaudiya Vaishnava, and as said, there are many people who claim to be sadhus, but they aren’t, drinking wine and mixing with women.<o:p></o:p> One must ask carefully which line of the Caitanya tree of devotion one follows, and about the goal of the sadhana and the type of sadhana one follows.<o:p></o:p> A serious wanna be disciple should personally ask a candidate guru about all this things.<o:p></o:p>

Dear bhakta devarsi, dandavat pranam,<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> you quoted me <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> and replied: <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Reply <o:p></o:p> As long as one does not teach suddha-bhakti, as taught by Sri Caitanya or His empowered representatives from Vrindavan, but something else, like implementing varna-ashrama dharma, which has nothing to do with bhakti, these teachings must be readily discarded (but a person lacking knowledge of siddhanta cannot discriminate between what is bhakti or not, so the neophyte may well do things that have nothing to do with bhakti, and regarding them as part of sadhana bhakti, although they have nothing to do with it. ) Remeber the definition of sadhan bhakti: kRti sAdhyA bhavet sAdhya bhAvA sA sAdhanAbhidhA| nityasiddhasya bhAvasya prAkaTyaM hRdi sAdhyatA|| (brs 1.2.2) That activity which is performed with the material senses and has as goal the attainment of bhava is called devotional practice (sadhan-bhakti) - the first line. The goal of varnashram dharma is not to attain bhava bhakti. The angas of sadhan-bhakti have been further in BRS deliniated and there is no injunction regarding Varanashrama dharma.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> As from the beginning of this thread, it seems that the biggest proponent of shuddha bhakti (see his Website Purebhakti.com) in Gaudya Mat – BV Narayana M. now started the parallel preaching of the implementation of varnashram dharma, which he wery well knows and preached that has nothing to do with bhakti.<o:p></o:p>

From post #286 <o:p> </o:p>Dear bhakta devarsi you quoted me <o:p> </o:p> Quote:<o:p></o:p> <table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="border: 1pt solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding: 4.5pt 18pt; background: rgb(224, 224, 224) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"> anadi<o:p></o:p> "Bhakti is not related to any Institution. Bhakti is the relation between the Worshipable Deity and the devotee, and guru assists his disciple in making conscious that loving relation." When an Institution came into being, that is not because of bhakti, but because of material managerial considerations, and politics will come into life. And The definition of bhakti for the Gaudiya Vaishnavas has been clearly stated by Srila Rupa Gosvami. Uttama Bhakti – pure divine loving service consists of activities –shilanam which are favorable anukulyena – give pleasure in the highest degree to<st1:place><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place></st1:place>.<u1:p></u1:p> It must be devoid shunyam of material desires anyabhilash, knowledge of the Absolutness of the Lord jnana, and karma – activities according varna-ashram dharma. </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <o:p> </o:p> and quoted your (bhakta devarsi) replied <o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p> And quted a part of my (anadi's) answer: <o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Than your (bhakta devarsi's) final reply was: <o:p> </o:p>Reply: This definition of types of bhakti is not in the line with the teachings of Rupa Gosvami, it is inaccurate and hazy. What is the definition of bhakti (ordinary devotional service)?<o:p></o:p> What is the definition of viddha-bhakti (mixed devotional service)? (Viddha or Vaidhi bhakti is is derived from the Sanskrit word “vidhi”, referring to the commandments of the scriptures. vaidhi-bhaktir bhavet zAstraM bhaktau cet syAt pravartakam | rAgAnugA syac ced bhaktau lobha eva pravartakaH || (rvc 1.3) “When devotion is caused by scriptural injunctions, it is called vaidhi-bhakti, but when its cause is spiritual greed alone, it is called raganuga-bhakti.” <o:p> </o:p> yatra rAgAnavAptatvAt pravRttir upajAyate | zAsanenaiva zAstrasya sA vaidhI-bhaktir ucyate || (brs 1.2.6) “That devotion which knows no attachment or greed, but which is prompted by the commandments of the scriptures, is called vaidhi-bhakti.” vaidhI-rAgAnugA-mArga-bhedena parikIrtitaH | dvividhaH khalu bhAvo’tra sAdhanAbhinivezajaH || (brs 1.3.7) “The paths of vaidhi and raganuga are known to be separate from each other. Engagement in these two forms of practice certainly awakens two distinct varieties of bhava.” You don’t smash anything, you don’t know siddhanta, please read my post #274 to understand how Srila Rupa Gosvami defines Bhakti:<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> To refresh your memory:<o:p></o:p> Rupa Gosvami after giving the definition of the pure bhakti, <u1:p></u1:p> says that this bhakti, the pure bhakti, he defined previously is of three kinds:<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>sA bhaktiH - sAdhana bhaktir - bhAva bhaktiH - premA bhaktir - iti trividhA <u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>There are only three kinds of bhakti:<u1:p></u1:p> sAdhana bhakti, bhAva bhakti, premA bhakti <u1:p></u1:p>which according Rupa Gosvami are all part of the pure bhakti.<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>That which is outside of pure bhakti is not bhakti:<u1:p></u1:p> Aropa siddha bhakti is an imposition of bhakti on activities which seem related to bhakti, but really they are not bhakti.<u1:p></u1:p> Sanga siddha bhakti is the cultivation of good qualities, which really is not bhakti, but when this cultivation is done in association with bhakti activities, than it may be called sanga siddha bhakti, but is not bhakti, than bhakti means cultivation of another type of activities.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Vaidhi or viddha bhakti is a type of the Sadhana bhakti, which Rupa Gosvami includes it in the Pure bhakti, as he says:<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>vaidhI rAgAnugA ceti sA dvidhA sAdhanAbhidhA || (brs 1.2.5) “(Bhakti) Practice (sadhana bhakti) is of two kinds, namely vaidhi (sadhana-bhakti)and raganuga (sadhana-bhakti).”<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p> From post #286 <o:p> </o:p> Quote:<o:p></o:p> <table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="border: 1pt solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding: 4.5pt 18pt; background: rgb(224, 224, 224) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"> Bhakta Devarsi<o:p></o:p> If the prescription is, "In my assessment of your presently manifested symptoms, Y'all are situated in the modes of nature, bereft of anything but a minute sentiment for Krsna, which you just got when you met me, and therefore divide up and practice Daivi Varnashrama Dharma so you can gradually attain the goal of Shudda Bhakti.<o:p></o:p> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->My reply <!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--> <!--[endif]--><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --><o:p></o:p> Quote:<o:p></o:p> <table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="border: 1pt solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding: 4.5pt 18pt; background: rgb(224, 224, 224) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"> anadi<o:p></o:p> This prescription is not from Sri Caitanya or His empowered representatives from Vrindavan, who followed His teachings.<o:p></o:p> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --><o:p> </o:p> You replyed (Bhakta Devarsi):<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> And of course it was a paraphrase of mine, and when I later went on to give direct evidence that Srila Prabhupada did prescribe the DVD system to "everyone" in his Iskcon society. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> But dear bhaka devarsi, <o:p></o:p> This is exactly the problem “Srila Prabhupada” ordered to introduce a system which has nothing to do with bhakti, than such a path was taught neither by Sri Caitanya nor by His empowered representatives from Vrindavan,.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> And you continued:<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> And then (I) logically concluded that since a purpose of Iskcon was to assist US in attaining the highest perfection, Shuddha Bhakti, that I was speaking in line with the Siddhanta. <!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> Reply Most clearly, you don’t speak in the line with siddhanta, because there, there is no injunction to introduce varnashrama dharma to help one in practicing bhakti; see please my post #251<o:p></o:p> You speak in the line with “Prabhupada”, not siddhanta as taught by Caitanya or His empowered representatives from Vrindavan,<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p>

Shakti-fan on Varnashram-dharma said that: Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja said in Vienna, Austria: September 19, 2002 : "Most Radha Kunda babajis are doing just that, mixing illicitly with widows and having children with them; they are not doing any real bhajana. "Do not fall down like them. You should follow your Gurudeva's orders; engage your energy in growing fruits and vegetables to offer to Thakurji or to a pure Vaisnava. You should also chant the holy name, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna." Reply Only very few “sadhus” in Radha-kunda are in this category, they are usually the exception, by which even the traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavas are bewildered. The matter of fact they are not babajis. They have never accepted babaji vesha (which is the stage of renunciation similar to sannyasi in other vaishnava sampradayas) from any traditional Gaudiya Vaishnava, and give themselves as "sadhus". Here it is an excerpt from the life of the Gauranga Dasa (Babaji), disciple of Jagadisha Dasa Babaji: Once Gauranga Dasa ji went to Radha-kunda. There he was invited by some "sadhu", whom he had not known before, to stay with him in Radha-kunda for some time. He accepted the invitation. But he had stayed with him only for one night when he discovered that that "sadhu" belonged to a pseudo-religious sect, in which woman and wine were parts of the sadhana. The next morning he left his company. But he found that his heart was empty. The subtle effect of the company of the unholy man had blocked his vision and he was not able to see Krishna-lila. He felt choked like a fish, who suddenly find that the water of the pond in which it lived, has dried up. Immediately he started for the parikrama (circumbulating) of Giri-raja Hill . It was the month of June, when the sun is hottest. He was walking the whole day in the scorching heat of the sun and praying to Giri-raja. In the evening he felt tired and lay down for rest on a step of the staircase of Uddhava-kunda. But he fell asleep. It was dangerous to sleep on the step, because, if he turned sides in sleep, he would fall into the kunda (pond). When he woke up he found that someone had lifted him and laid him at a safer place. He looked all round to see who that person could be. But to his surprise he found that no one was anywhere near that place. Next day he went to his guru, Jagadisha Dasa Babaji in Vrindavan. No sooner had he laid himself prostrate before his feet than he shouted, “Like a fool you sleep wherever you like. You do not know where to sleep and where not to sleep.” Gauranga Dasa understood that it was Baba, who had lifted him from the step of Uddhava-kund. This brought him the realization that Gurudeva followed the disciple like a shadow wherever he went and protected him. This realization brought tears in his eyes. Gauranga Dasa then told Baba about the loss of vision he had suffered on account of his meeting with the so called sadhu in RAdha-kunda, and prayed for his blessings. Baba blessed him and his vision was restored. PS this post has been previously deleted, and there is only an explanation that the rumours that the babajis of Radha-kunda sleep with widows and drink wine has no support, hope nobody got offended.

The dominant loving mood The sentiments or mood which dominates over all other, whether they are favourable or antagonist to it, and lords over them like a strong king, is called the dominant emotion or sthayi-bhava. The mediums through which emotion arises are called the vibhavas, and they are: 1. the persons, who are experiencing the loving emotion , and are called the alambanas. 2. the circumstances/ objects that stimulate the loving sentiments of the protagonists, and are called udipanas. The persons involved in the loving relation are of two types: 1. the “object” of love – vishaya alambana – which is always the Supreme (in the form of Krishna, one of His expansions, or the Divine Couple - Radha-Krishna). 2. the one who experiences the dominant emotion. - ashraya alambana – the devotee.

Dear guest, you quoted me and said: <table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="border: 1pt solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding: 4.5pt 18pt; background: rgb(224, 224, 224) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"> Originally Posted by anadi<o:p></o:p> "Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy." The essence of Varnashrama abhideya is karma (acting according the rules of <st1:city><st1:place>varna</st1:place></st1:city> and ashram) and it produces artha - economical prosperity, by which the material desires <st1:place>Kama</st1:place> are satisfied. And as you can see Varnashrama abhideya has nothing to do with Bhakti abhideya in bhakti-dharma, which is nitya dharma.<o:p></o:p> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->and you first replied: Anadi you used to preach the philosophy of Narayana Maharaja and now you are preaching what you have heard from Madhavananda and the Babajis of Vraja. But why? Reply:<o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> 1. What I have written, I have heard it neither from Madhavananda nor from the Babajis of Vraja.<o:p></o:p> 2. It is Bhagavad-gita that I carefully studied avoiding the twisted translalations of the verses, and the purports , where BV Svami, translates the varna-ashram dharma and karma-yoga as bhakti-yoga, which is not proper, than both systems have different sadhanas and different goals, than bhakti.<o:p></o:p> It might be that someone could object that a pure devotee would see everything in terms of bhakti. But it is also to object that when the pure devotee starts to preach, it is supposed that he <o:p></o:p> should come on the level of madyam devotee and understand and explain the differences, otherwise it is all one … and whatever we do is bhakti, (and it isn’t). What is below is neither from Madhavananda das nor from the babajis of Radha Kunda, is "abc" siddhanta explained in the beginning of Bhagavad-gita: 1. Varnashram dharma is naimitik dharma – occasional nature of duty, and as such comprise another abhideya than bhakti, which is nitya dharma. Not all the roads lead to the same destination. Sri Krishna Himself taught in the beginning of His discourse to Arjuna varNa-azrama dharma, the first level of perfection. niyataḿ kuru karma tvaḿ / karma jyāyo hy akarmaṇaḥ śarīra-yātrāpi ca te / na prasiddhyed akarmaṇaḥ BG 3.8 Perform always (niyataM) your duty (karma), for doing so is certainly(hi) better than do akarma. One maintains himself through karma. This kind of instructions on the first level of perfection are linked with sacrifices to the demigods which in change will give material prosperity. The demigods are not able to give liberation from the material world, being themselves under the spell of material energy – maya. saha-yajñāḥ prajāḥ sṛṣṭvā / purovāca prajāpatiḥ anena prasaviṣyadhvam / eṣa vo 'stv iṣṭa-kāma-dhuk BG 3.10 In the beginning of creation, the Lord of the creatures (praja-pati – BrahmA) sent forth generations (of men and demigods), along with sacrifice, and blessed them by saying, "Be thou happy by this yajJa [sacrifice] because its performance will bestow upon you everything desirable for living happily." devān bhāvayatānena / te devā bhāvayantu vaḥ parasparaḿ bhāvayantaḥ / śreyaḥ param avāpsyatha BG 3.11 The demigods, being pleased by sacrifices, will also please you, and thus, by cooperation between men and demigods, prosperity will reign for all. The essence of Varnashrama abhideya is karma (acting according the rules of varna and ashram) and it produces artha - economical prosperity, by which the material desires Kama are satisfied. And as you can see Varnashrama abhideya has nothing to do with Bhakti abhideya in bhakti-dharma, which is nitya dharma. <o:p></o:p> Establishing Varnashram dharma as a means to make bhakti easier is false, because 1. there are no other qualifications for bhakti than the association with the carrier of bhakti, and varNa-ashram dharma is not. <o:p></o:p> 2. Practicing Varna-ashram dharma as taught in the scriptures, and as delineated by Sri Krishna Himself in Bhagavad-gita has nothing to do with bhakti, that is why the same <st1:place w:st="kAma</st1:place"> can be satisfied. </st1:place> Krishna" as="" sri="" caitanya="" –="" the="" avatar="" of="" love,="" rejected="" it.=""></st1:place><br"> <o:p></o:p> 3. All the endeavors for something else than bhakti, with the idea that will help bhakti is false, but ... under circumstances they might be seen as saNga-siddha bhakti when performed in association with the limbs of sadhana bhakti. </st1:place> Krishna gives a hint to Arjuna, that he should follow his khsatria dharma on the battle field, and not lament saying he would like to become a monk, by giving an example: Kings such as Janaka attained perfection solely by performance of karma (prescribed duties). Therefore, just for the sake of educating the people in general, you should perform your karma. (Bg. 3.20) In this connection there is a wide spread confusion regarding the meaning of karma. Bhagavan, Sri Krishna explains the meaning of karma : karmaṇo hy api boddhavyaḿ / boddhavyaḿ ca vikarmaṇaḥ akarmaṇaś ca boddhavyaḿ / gahanā karmaṇo gatiḥ (Bhagavat-gita 4.17) Karma, vikarma and akarma should be distinctively understood, because the karmic principle is profound. 1.Vikarma - acting against the prescribed duty , leads to a miserable destiny and destin-ation. 2. Akarma, not acting according the prescribed duty in varna-ashrama, can be - akarma – rejecting varna-ashrama dharma due to ignorance, which is vikarma. - akarma - rejecting varna-ashrama dharma and engaging in activities for the attainment of mukti (salvation - liberation from the bondage of this illusory material energy - maya) - akarma rejecting varna-ashrama dharma and engaging in devotional activities (bhakti) - for the attainment of divine love prema 3. Karma, is the action prescribed according varNa – social class and asram – religious order, which leads to the satisfaction of the Supreme Lord Hari. Nowadays karma is understood as general activity, which doesn’t corespond the original meaning of the vedic word. karmaṇy akarma yaḥ paśyed / akarmaṇi ca karma yaḥ sa buddhimān manuṣyeṣu / sa yuktaḥ kṛtsna-karma-kṛt (Bhagavat-gita 4.18 ) That person endowed with discrimination power (intelligence) buddhimAn, sees inaction in karma and action in akarma. That person is linked (with the spiritual world), although she acts (in this world). The meaning is that for a transcendentaly situated person, situated beyond the modes of material nature, karma (action prescribed according varNa – social class and asram – religious order) is akarma, in the sense that karma is not related to the eternal nature of the soul: shuddha bhakti – loving service to The All Attractive, and such a person sees akarma – not following the prescribed duties of varNa-asharam system, which are due to the false indentification of the soul with temporary denominations of the material body, as real activity – karma, when it is related to the real identity of the soul – a loving servant, friend, parent, or erotic lover of the Lord- which encompasses the nitya dharma – the real nature of the soul.

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p> 1. This is not an argument, that one should follow varNa-ashram dharma.<o:p></o:p> The lecture was given because people left/ leave SBV Narayana M for babajis in Radha Kunda.<o:p></o:p> And as in Iskcon it is preached: “Don’t go to Gaudiya Mat, …“, in the same way in Gaudiya Mat is preached: “Don’t go to babajis, …<o:p></o:p> 2. The qualification to hear about the pastimes of the gopis is <o:p></o:p> - neither to leave one’s home and go to sadhu (We have given up our houses, our children, fathers, mothers, wives, and our positions. We have left everything to do bhajana and to remember asta-kaliya-lila.)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> - nor to first get rid of anarthas, as Narayana M. would let the audience to believe:<o:p></o:p> "If you try to remember the asta-kaliya-lila before you are purified, the desire for young women and other material things will rise in your heart." In this connection Srimad Bhagavatam states clearly:<o:p></o:p> vikrIDitaM vraja-vadhUbhir idaM ca viSNoH | zraddhAnvito yaH zRNuyAd atha varNayed vA || bhaktiM parAM bhagavati parilabhya kAmaM | hRd-rogam Azv apahinoty acireNa dhIraH || (bhag. 10.33.39) “One who faithfully hears or describes the loving sports of Sri Krishna and the young maidens of Vraja will quickly drive away the heart-disease of lust, become sober, and attain the highest bhakti for the Lord.” <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> 3. SBV Narayan M said: “Then, as chanting, remembering, and performing kirtana cleanse these anarthas, all the pastimes of Krsna will automatically enter your hearts.”<o:p></o:p> But<o:p></o:p> If you don’t read about the pastimes of the Lord with the gopis, how can you remember them?<o:p></o:p> This is not the process recommended by the shastra. Krishna says cleary that according what you remember, that is what you get. According that what you worship/ remember /meditate on, you will get the result. One should read those pastimes that have that degree of intimacy that not disturb but enhance one’s eager to serve the Lord in a most excellent way (vara dasya):<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> kintu rahasya-lIlA tu pauruSa-vikAravad indriyaiH pitR-putra-dAsa-bhAvaiz ca nopAsyA svIya-bhAva-virodhAt | rahasyatvaM ca tasyAH kvacid alpAMzena kvacit tu sarvAMzeneti jJeyam || (Bhakti-sandarbha 338) “However, those secret sports are not to be worshiped by those who experience male transformations in their senses, or by those who are in the moods of father, son and servant, for it would be contrary to their moods. Confidentiality is understood according to the partial or complete touching of limbs.” <o:p></o:p> Not everyone is eligible to hear particular confidential topics, which may describe mundane like sexual pastimes, but that doesn’t mean one should let away altogether the pastimes of the Lord with the gopis. Here it is an example: <o:p></o:p> <FONT face=Verdana>Radha says: “If yo want to see My Sundara (beautiful), you must take full shelter of My lotusfeet!” First Radha – then Syama! The Manjaris say: “When <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comKrishna</st1:place> is <o:p></o:p> - neither to leave one’s home and go to sadhu (<b><font color=" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> makes any trouble we’ll take Him by the hand and throw Him out of the Kunja!” We are the maidservants of Radha!” But why do the kinkaris love <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>? Because He is the lover of Radha. As <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> takes His supper in NandIzvara, a kinkari fans Him. Without being seen by others, Syama keeps His hand on that kinkaris foot, as a means of asking her: “Will I meet My Dearest one or not?” That maidservant then places one toe on Syama’s hand, indicating that a meeting will be possible. This is a very sweet confidential service some would like to experience. (Syama sits on the floor, eating with His right hand and supporting Himself with His left hand. With Her foot the kinkari touches a particular finger <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s, indicating a particular trysting Kunja where He can meet His beloved. This code was previously agreed upon. The assembly of elders is absorbed in speaking with each other and thus does not notice this intimate exchange between <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> and the kinkari). This is vara (the most excellent) dasya (service). Although the manjaris are in the category of sakhis they are servants, because of their complete dedication to the Divine Couple. The other sakhis may apparently have a superior position in the pastimes but the delight of the confidential service of the maJjarIs, and the tasting of the sweetness of Krishna by experiencing the loving feelings of Radha in Her dealings with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> are far above the loving experiences the other sakhis have. Only the manjaris can perform such intimate service. This is the most excellent (vara) service (dasya), which is attained by chanting the name of Radha: <FONT color=green>Jaya jaya rAdha nAma vRndAvana yAra dhAma kRSNa sukha vilAsera nidhi <FONT color=black>(Narottama Dasa Thakura, in Prema Bhakti Candrka) <FONT color=black>“Glory, glory to Radha’s name, that dwells in Vrindavan and that is the jewel of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s happy pastimes”.<o:p></o:p> <o:p><FONT color=black></o:p> <FONT face=Arial><FONT color=black>From these pastimes the faithful devotee may understand the excellence of the service of the manjaris, and one may get an impetuous to serve the Lord in such intimate, sweet dealings.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p>PS</o:p> <o:p>SBV Narayana M. too, used to give such small kathas about the dealings Krishnas with the gopis to nourish the transcendental loving mood of his disciples, and awake in them the eagerness to get such service as the gopis (particular manjaris).</o:p>

Dear bhakta devarsi, dandavat pranam, you quoted me <TABLE class=MsoNormalTable style="WIDTH: 100%; mso-cellspacing: 0cm; mso-padding-alt: 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 0; mso-yfti-firstrow: yes; mso-yfti-lastrow: yes"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 18pt; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 18pt; BACKGROUND: #e0e0e0; PADDING-BOTTOM: 4.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 4.5pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1pt solid; mso-border-alt: solid #666666 .75pt">Originally Posted by Anadi<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> So, as you may see the goal – prayojana is not daivi varnashram dharma, but premA, and the means to attain the goal, abhideya is bhakti bhajana, not daivi varnashram dharma. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> and made more comments: 1. Answer:Logic without shastra has no power. Whatever I presented is confirmed by Gaudiya Siddhanta. If you think it is not, please give an example, and we analize it. 2. Answer: "All past acaryas" may at most start with the guru of "Prabhupada" and his neu version of Gaudiya Vaishnavism, (most important changes regarding raga-anunga sadhan-bhakti). - But I don't know any statement of his where he speaks of DVD or "consider(s) DVD as one of the means to attain our goal, krishna prema". - "Prabhupada" himself speaks of establishing varnashram dharma not DVD. Bhakti Abhideya is the means to attain prema – divine love of God. <o:p></o:p> And Varnashram dharma is not Bhakti Abhideya. The evidence is presented below. "Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy." <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> 1. Varnashram dharma is naimitik dharma – occasional nature of duty, and as such comprise another abhideya, or means to attain the goal of it. Sri Krishna Himself taught in the beginning of His discourse to Arjuna varNa-azrama dharma, the first level of perfection. niyataḿ kuru karma tvaḿ / karma jyāyo hy akarmaṇaḥ śarīra-yātrāpi ca te / na prasiddhyed akarmaṇaḥ BG 3.8 Perform always (niyataM) your duty (karma), for doing so is certainly(hi) better than do akarma. One maintains himself through karma. This kind of instructions on the first level of perfection are linked with sacrifices to the demigods which in change will give material prosperity. The demigods are not able to give liberation from the material world, being themselves under the spell of material energy – maya. saha-yajñāḥ prajāḥ sṛṣṭvā / purovāca prajāpatiḥ anena prasaviṣyadhvam / eṣa vo 'stv iṣṭa-kāma-dhuk BG 3.10 In the beginning of creation, the Lord of the creatures (praja-pati – BrahmA) sent forth generations (of men and demigods), along with sacrifice, and blessed them by saying, "Be thou happy by this yajJa [sacrifice] because its performance will bestow upon you everything desirable for living happily." devān bhāvayatānena / te devā bhāvayantu vaḥ parasparaḿ bhāvayantaḥ / śreyaḥ param avāpsyatha BG 3.11 The demigods, being pleased by sacrifices, will also please you, and thus, by cooperation between men and demigods, prosperity will reign for all. The essence of Varnashrama abhideya is karma (acting according the rules of varna and ashram) and it produces artha - economical prosperity, by which the material desires Kama are satisfied. And as you can see Varnashrama abhideya has nothing to do with Bhakti abhideya in bhakti-dharma, which is nitya dharma. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Establishing Varnashram dharma as a means to make bhakti easier is false, because 1. there are no other qualifications for bhakti than the association with the carrier of bhakti, and varNa-ashram dharma is not. <o:p></o:p> 2. Practicing Varna-ashram dharma as taught in the scriptures, and as delineated by Sri Krishna Himself in Bhagavad-gita has nothing to do with bhakti, that is why the same <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comkAma</st1:place> can be satisfied. </i> <font face=" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> as Sri Caitanya – the avatar of love, rejected it. <FONT face=Verdana><o:p></o:p> <FONT face=Verdana>3. All the endeavors for something else than bhakti, with the idea that will help bhakti is false, but ... under circumstances they might be seen as saNga-siddha bhakti when performed in association with the limbs of sadhana bhakti.

1. The red is said by bhakta devarsi. 2. My opinion is that up to now bhakta devarsi didn't prove he knows the basics of bhakti. What the future will bring... let us see.

The pure love is the innate attraction of the soul towards the Lord. Krishna dasa Kaviraja Gosvami writes in Caitanya-caritamrita (Madhya lila 22.107): nitya-siddha krishna-prema sadhya kabhu naya shravan-adi shuddha-citte karaye udaya The divine love for The All Attractive -Krishna-prema is an eternally established reality of the soul; it is not brought about by sadhana (the practical process). It automatically manifests itself in the purified soul by the performance of the various limbs of bhakti beginning with hearing - shravan –adi about the pastimes of the Lord. The meaning is that, when the soul got cleansed from the coverings of material attachments, she attains the state of pure goodness – shuddha sattva, and in this state, by practicing the limbs of saddhana bhakti, beginning with hearing (shravan –adi) about the pastimes of the Lord, the rays of love will awaken “on the horizon of the heart” as Rupa Gosvami says in Bhakti Rasa-amrita Sindhu (1.3.1): śuddha-sattva-viśeṣātmā / prema-suryāḿśu-sāmyabhāk rucibhiś citta-māsṛṇya kṛd asau bhāva ucyate: When the soul -atmā attains her pristine state of pure goodness - śuddha-sattva and a specific viśeṣa loving relation has been established between the soul and the Lord, than the rays of the divine attraction - prema-suryāḿśu manifest - sāmyabhāk as his innate consciuousness –citta, which is melted – māsṛṇya by a blend of divine tastes – rucibhiś, and one attains the state of Bhava. This bhava-bhakti is not obtained by any means of sadhana. Rather, by continual performance of shravana (hearing about the Lord), kirtana (loud praising the name, form, qualities and pastimes of the Lord) and other limbs of sadhana-bhakti, when bhakti attains maturity (shraddha, sadhu-sanga, bhajana kryia, anarta nivriti, nishta, ruch ashakti), it automatically cleanses all misgivings from the heart of the sadhaka (practitioner). At that time bhava manifests itself in the transparent heart by the mercy of Sri Krishna or His devotees. Bhava which melts even more “the heart”, much more so than in its initial stage, which greatly augments the feeling of transcendental bliss and which bestows a deep sense of mamata (possessiveness) in relation to Sri Krishna, is called prema - pure love by the learned, writes Srila Rupa Gosvami in Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu (1.4.1): samyaṇ masṛṇita-svānto / mamatvatiśayaṇkitaḥ bhāvaḥ sa eva sāndrātmā / budhaiḥ premā nigadyate

Dear bhakta Devarsi, dandavat pranam<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> You commented these statement of mine<o:p></o:p> You make a logical mistake: <u1:p></u1:p>The statement <u1:p></u1:p>"When a (Gaudiya) Vaishnava speaks of bhakti he means always shuddha bhakti"doesn’t say that unpure bhakti doesn’t exist, but <u1:p></u1:p>when speaking of unpure bhakti, the (Gaudiya) Vaishnava don’t say bhakti, but he defines them as a type of unpure bhakti he speaks of, or<u1:p></u1:p> when a (Gaudiya) Vaishnava speaks of the definition of bhakti he refers to shuddha bhakti, otherwise he says explicitly what kind of impure bhakti he wants to speak of.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> And said: This is the logic of a neophyte, allow me to explain. A neophyte wants to be part of an exclusive section. He needs this phenomenon in order to satisfy the material desires of feeling part of a group, having some special fame, being able to identify with something larger than his self. …<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> But<o:p></o:p> 1.This argument is a personal attack, a “political” argument that has nothing to do with the subject.<o:p></o:p> 2. Logic alone without being based on the statements of the shastra has no power; and your presented logic is not based on shastra. The evidence lies below. Your first argumentation based on “logic” alone is this:<o:p></o:p> …as you just admitted in your post, the FULL DEFINITION of Bhakti would have to include all of the forms of Bhakti, including the impure forms. <!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> 1. I never said or "admited" that the FULL DEFINITION of Bhakti would have to include … the impure forms.<o:p></o:p> But this logic of yours seems quite Ok, … but it isn’t, because: <o:p></o:p> 2. When one gives a definition of something … whatever that may be, that definition reflects the pure state of that which is defined. <o:p></o:p> When one defines gold, one refers to gold in its pure state.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> 3. Your idea that FULL DEFINITION of Bhakti should include all of the forms of bhakti is based on lack of knowledge, regarding the forms of bhakti, as described in shastra.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> So, after giving the definition of the pure bhakti, saying that Uttama Bhakti – pure divine loving service consists of activities –shilanam which are favorable anukulyena – give pleasure in the highest degree to Krishna, and these activities must be devoid shunyam of material desires anyabhilash, knowledge of the Absolutness of the Lord jnana, and karma – activities according varna-ashram dharma.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Rupa Gosvami says that this bhakti, the pure bhakti, he defined previously is of three kinds:<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> sA bhaktiH sAdhana bhaktir bhAva bhaktiH premA bhaktir iti trividhA<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> There are only three kinds of bhakti:<o:p></o:p> sAdhana bhakti, bhAva bhakti, premA bhakti<o:p></o:p> which according Rupa Gosvami are all part of the pure bhakti.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> If you don’t know how sadhana bhakti is part of the pure bhakti, I can explain it to you in a further post.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> That which is outside of pure bhakti is not bhakti:<o:p></o:p> Aropa siddha bhakti is an imposition of bhakti on activities which seem related to bhakti, but really they are not bhakti.<o:p></o:p> Sanga siddha bhakti is the cultivation of good qualities, which really is not bhakti, but when this cultivation is done in association with bhakti activities, than it may be called sanga siddha bhakti, but is not bhakti, than bhakti means cultivation of another type of activities.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> You also added this argumentation:<o:p></o:p> If asked to give the definition of PURE BHAKTI, that would be one thing, but that is not what we were talking about, you read that (pure) part into it because of your obsession with being considered pure, and the exclusivity that comes with the fact that so many others obviously are not.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> No, this is not my “obsession”. Pure bhakti according Gaudiya siddhanta is bhakti, and in the pure bhakti according the definition of rupa Gosvami, there are sAdhana bhakti, bhAva bhakti and premA bhakti<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> You added also this argument:<o:p></o:p> For Vaidhi Bhakti is bhakti, or else the word Bhakti would not be a part of the compound word which made up the term.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> But <o:p></o:p> Vaidhi bhakti is not bhakti because of your logic, but because it is part of the Sadhana bhakti, which Rupa Gosvami includes it in the Pure bhakti, as he says:<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> vaidhI rAgAnugA ceti sA dvidhA sAdhanAbhidhA || (brs 1.2.5) “Practice is of two kinds, namely vaidhi and raganuga.” <o:p></o:p> Your conclusion:<o:p></o:p> So Anadi's speculation (not backed up by any quote from an authority) that a Gaudiya Vaisnava defines Bhakti only as the Purest form Suddha Bhakti is simply wrong. He is just using this contrived arguement in order to try to be correct about something. Wanting to be right. And challenging me based on a flimsy and outrageous conclusion.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Your conclusion is false.<o:p></o:p> Whatever I presented are not speculations, or out of the desire of being right, but is based on Gaudyia Vaishnava Siddhanta as presented by Srila Rupa Gosvami, as I detailed explained above. <!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p> Dear bhakta traveler, dandavat pranam,<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> You said:<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> DVD is not VAD! Bhakti is the end goal, never is this said different. DVD is the means to the end goal of practical Bhakti yoga. Daivi means God consciousness. How can you not get this?<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> That what you say, seems quite right, but there is a problem.<o:p></o:p> What is your goal first? To establish varna-ashram dharma in the world, <o:p></o:p> because “Prabhubada” gave the order. Mahaprabhu said one should not endeavor for it - it is external, has nothing to do with bhakti - the true dharma.<o:p></o:p> According to Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta varna-ashrma dharma has nothing to do with bhakti, but as you are prabhupada-anunga, you follow the order of “Prabhubada”:<o:p></o:p> Prabhupada: … varnasrama-dharma is required. …. So the varnasrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, ..<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> You also say that the end goal, is to get bhakti, <o:p></o:p> but as you know bhakti is a function of divine love prema, <o:p></o:p> and than your goal is to attain prema so that you can do bhakti.<o:p></o:p> And Prema can be attained througn <o:p></o:p>sadhana bhakti - than you have to attain the state of shuddha sattva vishesh atma, which can not be attained through varna-ashrama dharma.<o:p></o:p> The invention of a new path under the new term “daivi varnashram dharma” has no shastric support.<o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> 2. daivi means transcendental or spiritual and varna-ashram is in itself a daivi – system, a system to attain the transcendental thourgh karma, arta, <st1:place>kama,</st1:place> moksha, through which one can attain shuddha sattva but without vishesh atma In this connection daivi varnashram dharma is an improper construct, which should reflect the idea of marrying bhakti-dharma with varna-ashrama dharma. <o:p></o:p> The logical mistake that “Prabhupada” or/ and his guru (as he started to implement varna-ashram) did, is to suggest that bhakti would need the support of varna-ashrama, which Mahaprabhu and shastra clearly deny it.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> You also said:<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> As for 'Babaji camp' non affiliation, that's great!<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Babajis are not your enemies. You should take your time and remember your real enemies.<o:p></o:p> Although I do not belong to any group or camp, I appreciate the Babaji’s of Radha Kunda, because, as far as I know up to now, they follow most closely the shastra, as taught by Mahaprabhu, His confidential associates and empowered representatives from Vrindavan, and accordingly have the transcendental realizations.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p>

Dear bhaktachris, Dandavat pranam,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> You gave this quotation:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy. Satsvarupa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also. Prabhupada: Yes. Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitaù. Therefore varnasrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varnasrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and... <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> This is a willingly wrong interpretation of the words Sthane sthitah – stay where you are.<o:p></o:p> Sthane sthitah is not a recommendation to introduce varnasrama-dharma, but a concession that one can do sadhana bhakti wherever one is. Sri Caitanya meant that to do sadhana-bhakti one should not change one’s varNa or ashrama, because bhakti is not depending on them. <o:p></o:p> KRSNa-bhakti is described as ahaituki – without cause, and also apratihata, continuous - so when it is awakened in our heart, we can feel that our heart is getting wonderfully satisfied, yayatma suprasidati. Ahaituky apratihata: it has no cause; and it cannot be checked, cannot be opposed, opposition cannot have any effect there - it is such. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Bhakti comes from bhakti, not from jJana, karma, vairagya, or ... sattva guana. We have to get help from the sadhus who have got bhakti within them. In this way it is ahaituki. Just as, from one candle another cadle may be lit. A candle cannot produce light from within, but it is to be lit from another candle. We are to awaken our buried bhakti, which is covered by 'anyabhilasa, karma and jnana <o:p></o:p> You also added: those of us who have heard from Srila Prabhuapda have had the Acharya come, <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> This a wery much Mesia like statement of the Christians.<o:p></o:p> Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami is Iskcon founder acarya, not the acarya of the world as the Iskcon wants to put it, not the acarya of any of the many Gaudiya Mats or the acarya of Gaudiya Vaishnavism.<o:p></o:p> He was the best advertising medium for Gaudiya Vaishnavism in the west, but he mainly preached not Gaudiya Vaishnavism but something else: Iskcon-ism or Hare Krishna Movement, and his followers are Iskcon-anuga, nor raga-anungas, and neither rupa-anugas, but “Prabhupada”-anuga, as they also aknowledge.<o:p></o:p>

Dear Bhakta Devarsi, dandavat pranam,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> As I said:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> When a (Gaudiya) Vaishnava speaks o bhakti he means always shuddha bhakti, not aropa siddha bhakti, or sanga siddha bhakti...<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> You replied:<o:p></o:p> This is the most absurd thing I ever heard. Those other forms of mixed bhakti would not even have existence, name and form without a Gaudiya Vaisnava who defined them, aka spoke of them. But<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> You make a logical mistake:<o:p></o:p> The statement <o:p></o:p> "When a (Gaudiya) Vaishnava speaks of bhakti he means always shuddha bhakti" doesn’t say that unpure bhakti doesn’t exist, but <o:p></o:p> when speaking of unpure bhakti, the (Gaudiya) Vaishnava don’t say bhakti, <o:p></o:p> but he defines them as a type of unpure bhakti he speaks of, or<o:p></o:p> when a (Gaudiya) Vaishnava speaks of the definition of bhakti he refers to shuddha bhakti, otherwise he says explicitly what kind of impure bhakti he wants to speak of.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> You also said:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> I actually feel really bad for you but that is my problem, you obviously have no feeling for anyone but yourself, so please accept my obeisances from a distance, and just leave me alone until you can recognize the existence of that other Bhaktas exist besides those enjoying unalloyed Krishna prema.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> This statement is based by misunderstanding the statement<o:p></o:p> 1.When a (Gaudiya) Vaishnava speaks of bhakti he means always shuddha bhakti, <o:p></o:p> The explanation was already given.<o:p></o:p> 2. This your new coined therm „unalloyed Krishna prema” is not proper, or is false.<o:p></o:p> Krishna prema is always pure (unalloyed). This love is only covered, so that we may not have access to it, and as Srila Rupa Gosvami says in Bhakri Rasamrita Sindhu, when one by the power of his bhajan attains the state of pure goodness- śuddha-sattva, which has a peculiar flavor in the soul – viśeṣa atma, than in his citta – consciousness („heart”) which by bhajan was purified and is śuddha, by the mercy of a shuddha bhakta or bhagavan, the rays of the divine love - prema-suryāḿśu manifest – sāmyabhāk and his citta melts māsṛṇya by a blend of divine tastes – rucibhiś, and one attains the state of bhava – the beginning of divine love - prema.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> So, as you may see the goal – prayojana is not daivi varnashram dharma, but premA, and the means to attain the goal, abhideya is bhakti bhajana, not daivi varnashram dharma. <o:p></o:p> You also said:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> For your denial of them as being Bhakti is not merciful, and therefore what kind of Bhakti are you practicing. Get it? I can only pray you might some day.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> This conclusion of yours is also false, because is based on false assumptions:<o:p></o:p> I never denied there are people who do little bhakti mixed with a lot of vikarma and so on, and accordingly their state is miserable, materially and spiritually; materially because they continue to hanker for material amenities they cannot afford, and spiritually because their progress in bhakti is almost null, and premA seems to be a fairytale.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> They should start bhakti sadhana: studying the literature of the Gosvamis and increase the quantity of chanting and the quality of it by meditating on the goal of their endeavors, according their acquired eligibility. <o:p></o:p>

Dear Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja, Dandavat pranam,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> You said:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada told us(ISKCON) to take up this DVD, you do not have to do nor agree. I do. And others on this form too. THAT IS ALL. Order is given. <?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"><v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><v:path o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"></v:path><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shapetype><v:shape id=_x0000_i1025 style="WIDTH: 12pt; HEIGHT: 12pt" alt="" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata src="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\je3794\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.gif" o:href="http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/images/smilies/cool.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> But<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The argument is not that one has or has not to agree with the DVD.<o:p></o:p> The argument was: If following and/ or having (daivi) varnashram-dharma as goal of one’s endeavours correspond the teachings of Sri Caitanya and His empowered representatives.<o:p></o:p> (and … it does not, as previously shown). <o:p></o:p> You also said:<o:p></o:p> You are interjecting in a family discussion and not minding your manners. Babaji's will love your arguements. We care not, we are for Prabhupada. And He says to do.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p>but</o:p> <o:p></o:p> I don’t know if “babajis will love my arguments", but sure is that Madhavananda das (known in this forum as raga), who follows the teachings of Sri Ananta Das Babaji, generally do not agree with my arguments, so, in this connection I don’t represent any Babaji camp.