Beggar

A

Do you really think that I would be so sarcastic about myself? That doesn't mean I'm not low class, not by a long shot. Hari bol, Bhakta Mortimer C. Beggar III http://home.comcast.net/~linkman00/tv/Twilight_Zone.mp3

So preaching big philosophy to neophytes who have no idea whats being spoken, and then going out and having a few beers is a no no? http://home.comcast.net/~linkman00/tv/Twilight_Zone.mp3

Srila Prabhupada was outwardly opposing all forms of Shavism because he could see the prevalence of Sankarcarya's Mayavada philosophy in the West and how many of his neophyte followers had the potential to gravitate back towards impersonalism. This is an example of preaching for time, place and circumstances. I'm sure that in another time, place and circumstance such as right now he would not object to us delving into what the previous acaryas have explained about Lord Siva.

Maybe but maybe not. Many of the rtviks claim to be "Prabhupadanugas" but they don't know hardly anything about Rupanuga even as an ideal. So I've got a feeling that's what he's talking about. The way you used the term "Prabhupanuga" in an earlier post was different and I personally don't find it objectionable. It's just that some folks use the term to prove that they are loyal to Prabhupada and others are not.

Narayana Maharaja is a bit too open about the manjari subject for me. But I will have to agree with his insight on this issue cent per cent.

One old ISKCON friend of mine showed up on the scene after a long time. I confided that I have problems with the regs. He told me that, "I have never missed a day of chanting 16 rounds and have never broken the regulative principles". One month later he was on the lam, charged with child molestation of his 12 yr. old step-daughter. A close friend of mine went to work for big time ISKCON devotee lady who had a large business. She announce quite suddenly, "I have not had sex in over 20 yrs." and her lips curled. Several years later she fell down with one of the most senior ISKCON sannyasis. In another group of which I am aware, some of the "preachers" take intoxicants. I know that from the ISKCON point of view that is shocking. Yet it almost seems that rampant hypocrisy around the regs is even worse.

But the dogs of the dogs are really dogs of Srila Rupa Goswami. So to really be Prabhupada's dog one must become a Rupanuga. If your clueless on the subject then try to get some help. Not from someone who just intellectually knows the subject but rather one who has dived deep into it's essence.

Well at least everyone is pretty much clear on no meat, fish or eggs, unless the eggs are disguised in cookies. One group admits that hardly anyone really follows and in another group they mostly pretend to follow (since 1966)

Well its not going to implemented in my family without force. My family members and associates like to chant and dance at the Sunday Feast and act like regular members of Western society during the remainder of the week. It's been going on like this for twenty years. Families are being dominated by "New Age" devotee women. If you put your foot down you end up arrested for domestic violence. Then you are politically re-educated through mainstream psychology. Not a pretty picture!

Krsna Consciousness is completely voluntary, but DVD is a social system so there must be some force or power behind it. The minimum force is social pressure or be ostracized by a society. Present day ISKCON has almost none of this power left. Most likely the reason is no real leadership or acharyaship. Who is qualified and prepared to impose this system by the DVD revolution? But the DVD revolution is just part of the Hare Krsna revolution. Therefore, the only realistic way is for us to follow Mahaprabhu's instruction to tell everyone we meet, everyone we speak to about Krsna. Then one day a great soul will come along and later perhaps someone like a great king and DVD will be imposed. Not voluntarily, but imposed, like all social systems. So therefore we have to impose a discipline on our own minds and preach about Krsna. The most important issue of our times is that millions and millions of people are rushing head-long into the jaws of death without hearing the insrtuctions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. DVD is there in Prabhupada's books and it is good service to point it out. But if we want to obsess then we should obsess about Krsna, His Names and Pastimes. This is how the tree is watered at the roots. So DVD is external but it is a channel to help the masses become part of an extended Krsna Conscious society from generation to generation.

Dear Anadi, please accept my dandavat pranams. Still that is the absolute truth and the absolute perspective. Magrari the hunter gave up hunting amimals and then followed the bhakti path. Violence to animals is unfavorable for bhakti so it is renounced. Yet ahimsa itself is not really a qualification for transcendental greed for Krsna prema. Perhaps we are getting lost in the duality of cause and effect.

Still if someone is doing mixed bhakti, and still endeavoring for something else then it would be better to be a milk seller than a butcher. This is the relative application of DVD for to act in sattva or goodness will help facilitate a change heart towards unmotivated bhakti whereas acting so much in tamas or ignorance would be devastating. As Srila Sridhar Maharaja has told, "there is always the absolute, an then the relative consideration." You are trying to look at the issue from the absolute viewpoint, but you are blind to the relativity of you own position.

Does anyone know where I can find White Chocolate Krsna?

This must be a universal principle, that Krsna Consciousness is based on love and affection. Prabhupada would say that a spiritual society is based on love and trust. Unfortunately there is the kanistha mentality in all large groups. So some persons even preach that one must follow your guru or another guru otherwise one is lost or going to hell. This mentality is just a manifestation of that person's lack of development of love and affection. Their motivation for practicing life is actually based on their fear of the consequences of not doing so. Love and affection must refer to bhakti, how could it be otherwise? The wise remember Srila Sridhar Maharaja's famous remark, "we are devotees of free faith". Therefore everywhere, in this world there is pure devotional service and devotional service which is mixed with the modes of material nature. Mixed also means motivations which are not pure or suddha. This analysis must always be there, otherwise we are just being sentimental. Sometimes when we want others to do what we are doing it becomes just an extension of our own false ego.

Certainly Hare Krsna Culture can be as external as DVD. But think about it one person is growing indoor tropical decorative plants, another marijuana plants, another Tulasi devi. Now you could say, who is better the person who grows marijuana and thinks, "I am so fallen I wish I could grow Tulasi devi" or the person growing Tulasis who is thinking about smoking marijuana?Generally devotees grow and worship Tulasi and that is a form of devotional culture. The question could be asked why do we grow tulasi, why not grow marijuana? Of course its better to be engage in "service" than not. But Krsna Consciousness and devotional service are one and the same. Mana manav a mad bhakto, always think of me, become my (Krsna's) devotee [bg 18.65]. The state of things in comtempory Hare Krsna commuinities is that the young people engage in an apparently impressive way and then go out and "party". This is a phenomena going on mostly in the West, so it must be going on where you are, Bay Area. Of course there are exceptional young devotees living in temples or maths and engaging full time and refraining from sneaking out and partying, unfortunately they are the exception to the rule. (of course you don't have to sneak out if you have your own place).

The big problem is that now that ISKCON is splintered into myriad pieces and fragments. In places like LA and Alachua most of the second generation and much of the first generation are co-opted by mainstream Western society. Many devotees are living "The Night of the Devotional Dead", which if made would be a B Movie horror film. The same thing is going on in non-ISKCON Hare Krsna communities also. Many devotees need to be convinced to again take up the chanting of the Holy Names. At one point the Germans controlled most of mainland Europe and were installing their style of social organization. Several years later they were being bombed and invaded and therefore retreating. At that point they were just trying to save their homeland from destruction. The social form of Krsna Consciousness has been routed by Maya. At this point perhaps the only thing left is development and spreading of Krsna Consciousness for individuals, families and small devotional associations. At this stage talking of implementing daiva varnasrama especially the varnas is grandiose and out of touch with the reality of the real situation. Perhaps the DVD promoters could take over New Vrndavana. No smocks and no German Shephards please!!! Keine Kittel und kein deutsches Shephards bitte!!!

I agree that the establishment of DVD would facilitate the organization of large Krsna Conscious Communities. On the other hand Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu told Ramananda Raya that varnasrama dharma is external. So some how I think that Srila Prabhupada desires that his followers sacrifice themselves to spread the internal thing, that is Love of God. The Sankirtan Yajna is the process for doing so, and Prabhupada started it with just a pair of karatalas and his pure chanting of Hare Krsna. How can you give what you don't have? So the real thing is for the disciples to also become pure devotees. Once the purity and realization are there then all the secondary, external things will follow like how to set up a society implementing DVD. We cannot stress the external over the internal. As Srila Sridhar Maharaja said if society consciousness and God consciousness come into conflict we must choose God consciousness. Srila Sridhar Maharaja would paraphrase the Bhagavatam verse "na te viduh svarta gatim hi visnu" as "we must dive deep into reality".

Also Saraswati Thakur did not take the dress of a babaji for in his humility he saw that dress as meant for Srila Rupa, Sanatana and Raghunatha Goswamis etc., in other words parmahamsas. By definition paramahamsas are beyond the varnas and asrams. Also he was trying to organize a society and make Krsna Consciousness available to a larger segment of society. He then established the triadandi sannyasa that existed in the Ramanuja Sampradaya. But remember the Sannyasa order exists within the four asramas, not beyond it as the babaji status. The historical situation at that time was that the babaji status was being abused by those who had taken up Sahajiya practices such as smoking ganja and "protecting" widows and then having children with them and so on. So to counter this he at least established the daiva asramas. If you go through your gurudeva's literature and that of your param guru, Gaudiya Matha acaryas and that of Swami Maharaja Prabhupada's you will see that they are the same on this matter. The only difference is the time, place and circumstances and the slight adjustments made in light of that consideration.

...Daiva-varnasrama is also the system of brahmacari, grhasta, vanaprastha and sannyasa. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur also created a society of Vaisnava brahmanas and Srila B.V. Prabhupada attempted this within ISKCON. Srila B.V. Prabhupada wanted to incorportate hundreds of thousand if not millions of people within his society. This is where it seems to me organizing those masses as mostly ksatriyas, vaishas and sudras would be instituted. Now ISKCON has more or less lost this vision and perhaps possibiltiy, at least for now, especially in the West. ISKCON in India is much larger, but the extended membership there is already familiar with varnasrama dharma. Of course C. B. is in Alachua and there's a community which really could us some DVD. But how to do? Anyway DVD is external: The Lord has said that the varṇāśrama-dharma is not properly executed in this Age of Kali; therefore He ordered Rāmānanda Rāya to go further into the matter. Rāmānanda replied with this verse from the Bhagavad-gītā (9.27), which instructs that while remaining in the system of varṇāśrama-dharma one may offer the results of his activities to Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa in loving service. Naturally Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu was asking Rāmānanda Rāya about the execution of devotional service. Rāmānanda Rāya first enunciated the principle of varṇāśrama-dharma in consideration of materialistic people. However, this conception is not transcendental. As long as one is in the material world, he must follow the principles of varṇāśrama-dharma, but devotional service is transcendental. The system of varṇāśrama-dharma refers to the three modes of material nature, but transcendental devotional service is on the absolute platform. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu belongs to the spiritual world, and His methods for propagating the sańkīrtana movement are also imported from the spiritual world. Śrīla Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura has sung: golokera prema-dhana, hari-nāma-sańkīrtana, rati na janmila kene tāya. This states that the sańkīrtana movement has nothing to do with this material world. It is imported from the spiritual world, Goloka Vṛndāvana. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura laments that mundane people do not take this sańkīrtana movement seriously. Considering the position of devotional service and the sańkīrtana movement, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu deemed the system of varṇāśrama-dharma to be material, although it aims at elevation to the spiritual platform. However, the sańkīrtana movement can raise one immediately to the spiritual platform. Consequently it is said that varṇāśrama-dharma is external, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu requested Rāmānanda Rāya to proceed deeper into the matter and uncover the spiritual platform. Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 8.60 from PURPORT.

Before we go back. Gopa, Mula, Jadurani and Rasangi did college preaching/book distribution in '79-'80. They wanted to follow up on and "cultivate" those who received books and thought that the college environment was best for this. Ramesvara wanted straight book distribution at the airport, DMVs and other places. Get the book, hand over the cash vas, done. Numbers, big numbers thats all he wanted, and new devotees who could become his disciples. He called the college book distributor team "The Gang of Four".

Then because of the exalted position of Srila Ramesvara and his eternal consort, Rukmini devi dasi (who is eternally 15 yrs. old, somewhere)that must be his real name. But because of the exalted postion of Gubber Vrinda Pile PFC you must accept the title Crazy Buffon and place it at the end of your initiated name as I have done with the Crazy Gugenheim title which I have received. But that is another story.

All B.S. aside if its really what Prabhupada wanted then it should be for all Gaudiya Camps in the West because they owe their existence to him. Instead most of the teenage children of the H.K.s are going out and getting drunk and stoned and it is a big epidemic.

If look back at post #8 I actually tried to delete my comments before anybody read them because the post is even a little wild even for me. But I guess Super Soul wanted it to be seen. It was your "Gubber-vrinda-pile" comment that I found offensive and really set me off. Actually though that's pretty funny. But now if I ever run into him I'll think Gubber-vrinda-pile, rather than Gopa Vrindapala and instead of thinking of Krsna, I'll think of Gomer Pyle PFC, U.S. Marines. Of course one does not want to think of Jim Neighbors too much unless they want to be a member of GALVA in their next life. Of course you could visualize Bhakta Jim singing mangal artika down there at the Alachuee Temple, to the delight of all the farmis. He wasn't really such a bad singer after all. Gubber Pyle ki Jaya!!!

As neophyte devotees we are bound to do things that are akin to a baby soiling its diaper or a child spilling milk (not spoiling). The father or mother does not take offense when the child does these things but sometimes the other siblings will. So as neophytes generally we can see the really dumb things that our spiritual brothers and sisters do, but not our own follies.