atanu

Dear Guest Ji ”••Krsna is not "embodied".. he's not a soul put in a body.. he'sat cit ananda rupa.. eternal, conscious, blissful...body, name, lilas, companions and so on. And brahman is his effulgence (as said in gita) ••in gita it is said that krsna person is the source of brahman impersonal.. so the role of source is exchanged, All the god's activities are leelas because they are not originated by needs, and they are sat cit ananda, not maya” OH, MY GOD. OH, MY GOD. ‘And brahman is his effulgence (as said in gita) ••in gita it is said that krsna person is the source of brahman impersonal’ (readers please check in the above para what he has written). The eternal effulgence of Brahman comes from Krishna. This I did not know. This must be there in the Srutis and the Upanishads about which I do not know. And the sages who wrote Upanishads also did not know. Is it there in the Bhagavatam? In Chapter VII of Gita: The way to the Supreme Spirit, Lord says: The blessed Lord said: Sloka 3. The highest imperishable principle is Brahman. Its existence as embodied soul is called Adhyatma (my comments: the Adi Atma or Para Atman), and the offerings (into sacrificial fire) which causes the development of beings. Later he says: I am that as Adhyajna in this body. Then in sloka 6 in the same chapter He states: 6. Thinking of whatever object at the time of death a person leaves the body, he attains, O son of Kunti, that very object, being constantly absorbed in its thought. 8. Therefore remember Me at all times and fight; with your mind and intellect devoted to Me, shall attain Me alone – there is no doubt about this. Do some exercise and find out that the Lord also says that one who attains me does not ever return. And you say that there the personality differences are eternal. Huhh. I could not find out where He is saying that He is above the one imperishable Brahman. Oh, yes. I understand what you mean, The Brahma Loka: the world of the unmanifested beings (spirits with desires remaining) that take birth again and again. Yes, personalities exist at this level. And know that at Brahma Loka, the entities are not CIts. They have residual desires that causes repeated births. Your understanding is very faulty and you don’t understand the difference of Brahma Loka – the abode of the creator Brahma and the Supreme Brahman, who is Hara that absorbs all differences and becomes Tamas only. ”••god is CIT, his parts and parcels are CIT because god gives to them consciousness, they are one, because god has to be omnipresent, but they are also different because difference is necessary for life, relationship, love ••this for material personality, but f there's a material one, you must have a spiritual one, because spirit is the origin of everything and spirit is not inferior to matter ••your opinion unsupported by your demonstration... if matter is various , spirit is various... so one (sat)cit(ananda) is the source of existence of infinite (sat)cit(anandas)... ••but there's a cit who emanates and infinite cits who are emanated.. this is basically the symbolism of quantity.. ••of course.. to believe that the absolute is beyond material variety.. is right, to believe that absolute has not spiritual variety, for me, for logic, scriptures, gita and many acharyas is maya ••please show it to me , maybe i can explain better.. god and parcels are both satcitananda, but the first is satcitananda because of his power.. parcels are satcitananda because this power is given by god” Guest Ji, you are not talking about CIT at all. Personality does not adhere to CIT. You are not talking about CIT. You are talking about greed, desire, cruelty. Vanity etc. etc. “Do you mean such personality differences reside at soul level? ••of course .. we are different now and in the absolute world, otherwise we will lose the possibility to relationate, to love ••if you have changement, progress, evolution in this world it is not possible to negate it in the spiritual one.. so there's eternity and evolution, simultaneously... radha brings a rose and a daisy to krsna, and krsna says "i like more the roses!".. and the next day radha brings roses.. eternity and evolution, this is life The how is your soul eternal, which you agreed earlier? ••variety is eternal, eternity is various” I love it. Guest ji says: of course .. we are different now and in the absolute world. He says, of course personality differences are eternal at soul level. In Haras world, he will exist as a different personality. Have you heard about slap of Bhairav? Let us again hear what the Lord says: 6. Thinking of whatever object at the time of death a person leaves the body, e attains, O son of Kunti, that very object, being constantly absorbed in its thought. 8. Therefore remember Me at all times and fight; with your mind and intellect devoted to Me, shall attain Me alone – there is no doubt about this. “••through maya, maya is the energy, the personified energy, and through her krsna gives the forgetfullness.. as stated in gita ••the consciousness of god is from himself, our consciousness is from god , not from ourselves.. it is stated in gita, it is demonstrated by the fact the when we have the desire to forget god, through maya, gives to us forgefulness... and when we develope, through religion, the desire to coe back in consciousness god makes us remember and come back in CIT” Oh, yes. The permanent differences in CIT, the giver of eternally different personality The from Maya. You stated it. Now, I remember. “••maya's world is not at all false, it is a perversion of spiritual world... like real world and prison or real world and hospital. In the jail you have some resemblance of the relationships and behaviours of the outside world, but simultaneously it is very different. The logic says that less is contained in more and not the opposite. So if in material world we have many, in spiritual world we cannot have one, we have more many... infinite ••transcendentally dynamic... if dynamism, changement is in the relative, it is also in the absolute... but it inconceivably coexist with oneness, identity My God. And now you state that Maya is eternal. Maya is eternal in general. But it is not eternal for all persons at all times. Through grace Maya is unveiled (you have stated it earlier. If Maya is eternal for all Jivas, all Jivas are eternally bonded since Maya will be eternal for all. Your idea about soul is faulty. Your idea about Brahman is faulty. Your idea about Maya is faulty. All yopur arguments stem from misconcetion that I am talking about Brahma Loka and not the Supreme Brahman who is unmanifest and formless but is source of all personalities and is infinitely more besides. Lord Krishna is born of that Brahman through AdyYagna: the original sacrifice. Ignorance is Biss.. And all the time the readers felt: What a grand discussion. Huhh. As further knowledge: After showing to Arjuna the vision of the Universe, The Lord says in Chapter XI (The Vision of the Universal Form: Sloka 32: I am the terrible Time (Kala), the destroyer of people ---------. Now friends know about Mahakala that is beyond and beneath the time. From MAITRAYANA-BRAHMAYA-UPANISHAD (A vaishnava Upanishad) ‘5. The Valakhilyas said: ‘O Saint, thou art the teacher, thou art the teacher. What thou hast said, has been properly laid up in our mind. Now answer us a further question: Agni, Vayu, Aditya, Time (kala) which is Breath (prana), Food (anna), Brahma, Rudra, Vishnu, thus do some meditate on one, some on another. Say which of these is the best for us.' He said to them: 6. These are but the chief manifestations of the highest, the immortal, the incorporeal Brahman. He who is devoted to one, rejoices here in his world (presence), thus he said. Brahman indeed is all this, and a man may meditate on, worship, or discard also those which are its chief manifestations. With these (deities) he proceeds to higher and higher worlds, and when all things perish, he becomes one with the Purusha, yes, with the Purusha.' Note, when all things perish he becomes one with Purusha. Then again: Further: 13. And thus it is said elsewhere: This food is the body of the blessed Vishnu, called Visvabhrit (all-sustaining). ------- 14. And thus it has been said elsewhere: Food is the cause of all this, Time of food, and the Sun is the cause of Time. Remember now friends, Sun is the cause of Time – Kala. And now the final stroke: 15 . There are two forms of Brahman, time (Kala) and non-time (Maha Kala). That which was before the (existence of the) sun is non-time and has no parts. That which had its beginning from the sun is Time and has parts. Of that which has parts, the year is the form, and from the year are born all creatures; ------- 'Time ripens and dissolves all beings in the great Self, but he who knows into what Time itself is dissolved, he is the knower of the Veda.' And what was before the SUN, before Kala? “2. In the beginning darkness alone was this. It was in the Highest, and, moved by the Highest, it becomes uneven. Thus it becomes obscurity. Then this obscurity, being moved, becomes uneven. Thus it becomes goodness. Then this goodness, being moved, the essence flowed forth. This is that part (or state of Self) which is entirely intelligent, reflected in man (as the sun is in different vessels of water) knowing the body (kshetragna), attested by his conceiving, willing, and believing, it is Pragapati, called Visva. His manifestations have been declared before. Now that part of him which belongs to darkness (before Kala), that, O students, is he who is called Rudra. --------. He being one, becomes three, becomes eight, becomes eleven, becomes twelve, becomes infinite.” So, friends, what was before Kala? What is Mahakala? Where is Kala absorbed at the end of a Kalpa? Atanu

Dear Gokul, You have asked my opinion. Today, I could not meditate; thoughts continuously played in the consciousness. What I write below is that consciousness only. You are very sensitive and reactive at present. So, I request you to calm your mind through your own way; through the way your Guru has taught you. And then read on. Do not read this with angry or disturbed mind. Now read on. The Lord is the Self of all. He is the “I” of everyone. The Self has 2 interlinked aspects: the conscience and divinity. Divinity is the pure light – Visnu, who has pervaded everyone and everything. But what is this conscience? When Brahma, lusts after his own daughter, Usas or Rohini, he has guilt due to the conscience of his Self. From the guilt, which of the nature of fire, Rudra appears. Rudra is not outside. He is within the Self. Visnu is not outside, He is within the Self. Rudra is the protector of the conscience of the Self. He burns Jivas, in the fire of conscience: guilt, anger etc. and then from the pure conscience, the Self shines. Visnu shines. Who is greater? It is only fools who debate. It is fools who misguide. It is Karma to get a good or a bad guru. If a Guru misguides he has to go through the fire of conscience some time or the other. Without pure conscience Visnu does not shine. And without Visnu shining, one will never know about the conscience – the Self. The burner of conscience, Rudra is thus known as Auspicious also. It is also futile to know which is source and which is manifest, since what is source is manifest and what is manifest is the source. The conscience and the divinity are not two different things. The conscience is divine and the divine is conscience. It is one and the same Self. Visnu only wanted me to tell all these to you. If this knowledge becomes of any help to you then me, the Jiva, has served the Self well. I am emotional towards Siva. Thus I pray: Om Nama Sivvaya. The meaning is, let the conscience be pure, let it be auspicious, so that Visnu shines in me and through me. You pray: Om Nama Bhagavate Vasudevayya Nama (or something similar). Understand that the meaning is, let the purity and divinity be ever present so that my conscience is Auspicious. The many Puranic stories that show Visnu praying to the Conscience and similarly Siva praying to the pervading divine light mean this. They also mean humbleness. But incomplete Gurus make one the Super God and the other a demi God. They will go through their own hell of burning conscience. But, Gokul, as I have told you earlier that your innocence shines, though apparently you seem irritated and combative. Actually Hara has touched you and He loves you. You will see Hari soon. If you like what I have written then you may show it to your Guru and others. But, if you do not like it, then do not react. When we talk or think about God one wrong statement or a wrong thought will torment us by becoming part of our Karma. So, please do not comment on God loosely. If you do not like something, simply ignore that. But, finally when you will realize that He is One, all are His Self, then all irritation will go. Read on if you wish. But reading the full is not required since the essence is given above. Wish you best of Luck. Bye, Atanu Hari Hara You are Brahman. You are one. You are the Self of all. There is nothing else except Hari-Hara, the Brahman. The disillusioned Jiva thinks you are different and some say Hari is the one and some others say Hara is the one. You smile and lovingly you call them fools. Hara is the source and Hari is manifest. Or Hara is the manifest and Hari is the source. One precedes other in cycles. Actually He is one. Hari-Hara, together only they are Brahman. Without Hara there is no Hari and without Hari, Hara will not know about himself. Hara is Rudra and Siva; the malevolent and auspicious, respectively. Rudra arises with anger from Brahma, the creative urge in Hara; when Brahma in his creative urge lusts after his own daughter, Rudra takes birth from Brahma himself. So, what is Rudra? He is the conscience. He is the wrath borne of consciences in Hara. He destroys his own creation. But the wrath is auspicious in the result. Burned in the fire of conscience Brahma becomes pure and Auspicious Siva and the divine light Visnu- Hari bursts open. So, Hara can only be known through Hari. Rig Veda tells about Hara: ‘Rudra by day, Rudra at night we honour with these our songs, the Universe's Father. Him great and lofty, blissful, undecaying let us call especially as the Sage impels us.’ No one can overcome the conscience, which will eventually feast by burning the dross and then let the Auspicious and Diivine shine. He is self dependent and has no support of a second. Note that Rudra is self dependent. Those who proclaim that Rudra is a demi God do not know the Vedas. ‘To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God with swiftly-flying shafts, The Wise, the Conqueror whom none may overcome, armed with sharp-pointed weapons: may he hear our call.’ Rudra for His own glory takes birth in manifold colours. But through conscience He also gaurds the pure white light that is the highest step of Visnu. Rudra guards the heaven within jivas: ‘For the glory of thee, O Rudra, the life powers make bright thy birth into a richly manifold beauty. When that highest step -- The supreme plane of the three -- of Vishnu is founded within, thou guardest by it the secret name of the Ray cows. ‘ Then again: ‘O Will, become our inmost inmate, become Siva to us, become our deliverer and our armour of protection. Thou who art the lord of substance and who of that substance hast the divine knowledge, come towards us, give us its most luminous opulence.’ Again: ‘To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God with swiftly-flying shafts, The Wise, the Conqueror whom none may overcome, armed with sharp-pointed weapons: may he hear our call.’ But, Hari is Hara’s expression the Universe. He fills all creatures, The Earths and the Heaven. Visnu fills the stations with his 3 steps: ‘I WILL declare the mighty deeds of Visnu, of him who measured out the earthly regions, Who propped the highest place of congregation, thrice setting down his footstep, widely striding.’ Visnu knows and guards the highest plane of the Lord: ‘Visnu knowing rightly the supreme plane of this Fire, born in his vastness, guards the third (plane); when in his mouth they have poured the milk (of the cow), conscious they shine here towards his own home.’ And thus Rudra gains His strength. ‘With offerings I propitiate the branches of this swift-moving God, the bounteous Visnu. Hence Rudra gained his Rudra-strength: O Asvins, ye sought the house that hath celestial viands. ‘ Again: ‘Visnu, the guardian, keeps the loftiest station, upholding dear, immortal dwelling-places. Agni knows well all these created beings. Great is the Gods' supreme and sole dominion.’ Visnu is the preserver and inoffensive and with his lofty work even lowers the highest name of the father: ‘These offerings increase his mighty manly strength: he brings both Parents down to share the genial flow. He lowers, though a son, the Father's highest name; the third is that which is high in the light of heaven. We laud this manly power of him the Mighty One, preserver, inoffensive, bounteous and benign; His who strode, widely pacing, with three stepping forth over the realms of earth for freedom and for life.’ What came first? Hara or Hari? Who is greater? Fools ask this question. Hara without Hari will not be known. And Hari without Hara will not exist. Maitrayana-Brahmaya Upanishad tells: ‘Lord of the Universe, glory to thee! Thou art the Self of All, thou art the maker of All, the enjoyer of All; thou art all life, and the lord of all pleasure and joy. Glory to thee, the tranquil, the deeply hidden, the incomprehensible, the immeasurable, without beginning and without end.' Then it clarifies: ‘In the beginning darkness (tamas) alone was this. It was in the Highest, and, moved by the Highest, it becomes uneven. Thus it becomes obscurity (ragas). Then this obscurity, being moved, becomes uneven. Thus it becomes goodness (sattva). Then this goodness, being moved, the essence flowed forth. This is that part (or state of Self) which is entirely intelligent, reflected in man (as the sun is in different vessels of water) knowing the body (kshetragna), attested by his conceiving, willing, and believing, it is Pragapati, called Visva. His manifestations have been declared before. Now that part of him which belongs to darkness, that, O students, is he who is called Rudra. That part of him which belongs to obscurity, that, O students, is he who is called Brahma. That part of him which belongs to goodness, that, O students, is he who is called Vishnu. He being one, becomes three, becomes eight, becomes eleven, becomes twelve, becomes infinite. Because I he thus came to be, be is the Being (neut.), he moves about, having entered all beings, he has become the Lord of all beings. He is the Self within and without, yes, within and without.’ But Maha Kala has no beginning and end. The beginning mentioned above is beginning of a cycle. Rig Veda again: ‘Existence, in an earlier age of Gods, from Non-existence sprang. Existence, in the earliest age of Gods, from Non-existence sprang. Thereafter were the regions born. This sprang from the Productive Power. Earth sprang from the Productive Power the regions from the earth were born. Daksa was born of Aditi, and Aditi was Daksa's Child. For Aditi, O Daksa, she who is thy Daughter, was brought forth. After her were the blessed Gods born sharers of immortal life.’ Note that Aditi is Sati, the consort of Siva and daughter of Daksha but also is mother of Daksha for the next cycle. Hari-Hara who is Savitar is Swan, the insignia being the Sun. The origin of the Gayatri mantra is explained in Maitrayana-Brahmaya: ‘There are two forms of Brahman, the material (effect) and the immaterial (cause). The material is false, the immaterial is true. That which is true is Brahman, that which is Brahman is light, and that which is light is the Sun. And this Sun became the Self of that Om.’ ‘The Savitri begins: Tat Savitur varenyam, i.e. ‘this of Savitri, to be chosen’. Here the Aditya (sun) is Savitri, and the same is to be chosen by the love® of Self, thus say the Brahma-teachers.’ ‘The next foot in the Savitri: Bhargo devasya dhimahi, i.e. 'the splendour of the god we meditate on.' Here the god is Savitri, and therefore he who is called his splendour, him I meditate on.’ ‘The last foot: Dhiyo yo nah prakodayat, i.e. 'who should stir up our thoughts.' Here the dhiyah are thoughts, and he should stir these up for us.’ ‘The word bhargas:. He who is called bhargas is he who is placed in yonder Aditya (sun), or he who is the pupil in the eye. And he is so called, because his going (gati) is by rays (bhabhih); or because he parches (bhargayati) and makes the world to shrivel up. Rudra is called Bhargas, thus say the Brahma-teachers. Or bha means that he lights up these worlds; ra, that he delights these beings, ga that these creatures go to him and come from him; therefore being a bha-ra-ga, he is called Bhargas.’ ‘Surely the Self (absorbed in Prana, breath), which is called Immorta1, is the thinker, the perceiver, the goer, the evacuator, the delighter, the doer, the speaker, the taster, the srneller, the seer, the hearer, and he touches. He is Vibhu (the pervader), who has entered into the body.' And it is said: When the knowledge is twofold (subjective and objective), then he hears, sees, smells, tastes, and touches (something), for it is the Self that knows everything. And the same Self is also called Isana (lord), Sambhu, Bhava, Rudra (tamasa); Pragapati (lord of creatures), Visvasrig, (creator of all), Hiranyagarbha, Satyam (truth), Prana (breath), Hamsa (ragasa); Sastri (ruler), Vishnu, Narayana (sattvika); Arka, Savitri, Dhatri (supporter), Vidhatri (creator), Samrag (king), Indra, Indu (moon). In the beginning Brahman was all this. He was one, and infinite; infinite in the East, infinite in the South, infinite in the West, infinite in the North, above and below and everywhere infinite. East and the other regions do not exist for him, nor across, nor below, nor above. The Highest Self is not to be fixed, he is unlimited, unborn, not to be reasoned about, not to be conceived. He is like the ether (everywhere), and at the destruction of the universe, he alone is awake. Thus from that ether he wakes all this world, which consists of thought only, and by him alone is all this meditated on, and in him it is dissolved. His is that luminous form which shines in the sun, and the manifold light in the smokeless fire, and the heat which in the stomach digests the food. Thus it is said: He who is in the fire, and he who is in the heart, and he who is in the sun, they are one and the same.’ And, Rudra he is. And Visnu he is. He is the conscience in the heart of Jiva and He is the Self. He is Hara. He will never be known apart from Hari, the divine light. Hari will not exist if Rudra does not exist. The Maitrayana-Brahmaya again: ‘Two Brahmans have to be meditated on, the word and the non-word. By the word alone is the non-word revealed. Now there is the word Om. Moving upward by it (where all words and all what is meant by them ceases), he arrives at absorption in the non-word (Brahman). The syllable Om is what is called the word. And its end is the silent, the soundless, fearless, sorrow less, joyful, satisfied, firm, unwavering, immortal, immovable, certain (Brahman), called Visnu. Who has realized the Self is like a heated vessel (full of clarified butter); for as the clarified butter in the heated vessel lights up, when touched with grass and sticks, thus does this being which is called Not-breath (Atman) light up, when touched by the Pranas (the vital airs). And that which flares up, that is the manifest form of Brahman, that is the highest place of Visnu. And that is the essence of Rudra. And this, dividing his Self in endless ways, fills all these worlds. He who offers the Agnihotra breaks through the net of desire. Then, cutting through bewilderment, never approving of anger, meditating on one desire (that of liberty), he breaks through the shrine of Brahman with its four nets, and proceeds thence to the ether. For having there broken through the (four) spheres of the Sun, the Moon, the Fire, and Goodness, he then, being purified himself, beholds dwelling in goodness, immovable, immortal, indestructible, firm, bearing the name of Vishnu, the highest abode, endowed with love of truth and omniscience, the self-dependent Intelligence (Brahman), standing in its own greatness. It is that both the true (in the fourth condition: Turiya) and the untrue (in the three conditions: waking, dreaming, and dream less sleep) may have their desert, that the Great Self (seems to) become two, yes, that he (seems to) become two.’ Oh yes; the great Self is one Brahman who is the highest station of Visnu and is the soul of Rudra. ‘-- the Great Self (seems to) become two, yes, that he (seems to) become two.’ The sthanu Hara and swift Hari. The Conscience-Angry-Rudra-Auspicious Siva and the Divine-Narayana-Benevolent-Visnu. Hara is sthanu in the Sun and Hari is the holy rays – the swift gati. Some people who only read and learn will tell you the Lord is Rudra alone from Svetavatara Upanishad. Some others will tell you the Lord is Visnu alone from the Maitrayana-Brahmaya. Only a a few, who will know that both the Svetavatara Upanishad and the Maitrayana-Brahmaya Upanishad are His expressions only will tell you that He is Sarva -- the one and only one. Thank you Ramana. Thank you Siva. Thank you Visnu. Thank you Gokul. Atanu

Dear Gokul, Divinity has just begun shining in you. You do not know it yet. He posted the Puranic story through you. ------ Yes According to varaha purana : Sage brgu wanted to know which of the trinity are supreme ? so he went to test the gods to know the supremacy of gods. when he went to shiva, Shiva didnt wanted to be mistook by brgu as supreme (as shiva knows vishnu is supreme & shiva himself a devotee of vishnu) ------------- Read the story again. In this some part is divine and some part seems to be added by you. Then read the RV hymn given below again and again. RV Book 1 HYMN 155. Visnu-Indra. 1. To the great Hero, him who sets his mind thereon, and Visnu, praise aloud in song your draught of juice,-- Gods ne'er beguiled, who borne as 'twere by noble steed, have stood upon the lofty ridges of the hills. 2 Your Soma-drinker keeps afar your furious rush, Indra and Visnu, when ye come with all your might. That which hath been directed well at mortal man, bow-armed Krsanu's arrow, ye turn far aside. 3 These offerings increase his mighty manly strength: he brings both Parents down to share the genial flow. He lowers, though a son, the Father's highest name; the third is that which is high in the light of heaven. 4 We laud this manly power of him the Mighty One, preserver, inoffensive, bounteous and benign; His who strode, widely pacing, with three steppings forth over the realms of earth for freedom and for life. 5 A mortal man, when he beholds two steps of him who looks upon the light, is restless with amaze. But his third step doth no one venture to approach, no, nor the feathered birds of air who fly with wings. 6 He, like a rounded wheel, hath in swift motion set his ninety racing steeds together with the four. Developed, vast in form, with those who sing forth praise, a youth, no more a child, he cometh to our call. Read: 3 These offerings increase his mighty manly strength: he brings both Parents down to share the genial flow. He lowers, though a son, the Father's highest name; the third is that which is high in the light of heaven. Again read: 5 A mortal man, when he beholds two steps of him who looks upon the light, is restless with amaze. But his third step doth no one venture to approach, no, nor the feathered birds of air who fly with wings. Then pray to Maha Visnu to answer the followings: Which fathers name you lower and with whose will? Where is your the third and highest step, where no one dares to venture, not even a bird? Who is the diety in Gayatri mantra? Who dwells in the sun as the soul of Savitar – the golden Sun god? Who is ‘bhargho’ in Gayatri mantra? Why, you being so peaceful are known as swift? Why Rudra, though fierce is known as sthanu? Who is the father of this universe? Gokul, the day you get all the answers, you will attain bliss. In the mean while there will be some turmoil – all to lift you up. Remember me when you obtain Amrita. Give me some also. Do not give me only the poison. And when you become angry, write the feeling and tear off the paper then. Lord is everywhere and within every person. So, being angry at another person means being angry with the Lord. Atanu

Dear Guest ”You state that all nature is bound to Karma and as Karma controls your soul ••no why? ------ soul is transcendental ••no, individual soul is qualitatively the same with param brahman.. both are sat, cit, ananda... the only difference is in "quantity" and that individual soul gets his existence by the supreme ••soul is never really bounded, ------ illuded by maya to identify himself with the body, ••choosing to come in the material world we have choosen to be illuded and darkened by maya. So we get a material mind who, being not perfect, is very easy to forget, -------- So we live as bodies, we know only the body, we think to exist only when the body exist.” You say: Individual souls are also Cit. Soul is transcendental. Brahman and individual souls are different by quantitative aspect only. A quantitative difference of essence is impossible. Essence cannot become bigger or smaller. If you say that “Me as a better person has 100 gm soul and Atanu as an inferior person has 5 gm soul” that would indicate partiality of God. What you probably mean is that in you the essence of soul is fully evident, whereas in Atanu, the essence is not fully manifest because of Avidya. Or, due you mean that elephants have 100kg soul and mosquitoes have 5g soul. If soul has weight then bigger Jivas are favoured. In another way, if CIT is substance, then different portions of CIT will not remain CIT. For example, cutting a table into two pieces will result in 2 different things, different from the starting material and the starting material will also change. On the other hand, if, CIT is spirit (essence), then how can you divide a spirit into different portions? Is it ever possible? Can you divide air, which is grosser than soul. In another way, if individual souls are CIT then quantitative differences are not possible. For example, if I pour water from a tumbler into a cup and into glass water does not change. ”••this comes from the fact that you think that individual soul is subjected to karma. BUT 1)soul and supersoul relationship is transcendental --- as the prison's director enters in the prison but he's not a prisoneer.” Ok. I understand that your position is: that there are individual souls with same CIT but different quantities. These are not bonded but are eternally free. But an individual due to delusion thinks that the individual is bonded but actually is not bonded. Now, if the delusion is eternal, then you are wrong because then one can never be free of bondage of body. Bondage becomes eternal, which you say is not true. On the other hand, if the delusion is temporary (as you think is true) then again you are wrong, since the moment Avidya vanishes, the Oneness shines forth and perception of separateness vanishes. So, there will not be any Bheda as eternal truth. ”••----- this is the purpose of living in the matter, we as perfect souls live frustrated in a non perfect world, -----. ••yes.. virat rupa, as krsna shows to arjuna ------. ••krsna never needs, or there would be a need superior to god... necessarily god is free and all his activities are free, inconceivable for us and made to enjoy ---- his enjoyement and for the pleasure of devotees... variety is the source of pleasure. Yes in gita is said that krsna comes to bring again religion when irreligion is prevailing (yada yada hi dharmasya..), but ultimately it is his free will to enjoy and to please devotees (paritranaya sadhunam...) -------- in gaudya's opinion advaita and dvaita are both not perfect.. because god is one, but he contains variety otherwise how maya can have variety?.. because there's variety but we cannot say that there's some kind of existence separated by the whole” If soul is CIT, what is the need to create? When soul is already Cit, what needs to be purified through material experiences? You accept in next statement that Krishna through Leela, creates innumerable forms and colours to enjoy variety. So, the need to taste variety is in Brahman only. So the Maya is Brahman’s will only. (Note: Maya has been described as a mirror which may reflect one object in many fashions to create diverse phenomenon, but in itself Maya is not variety). You also say: God contains all – the oneness and variety. He is one CIT but by Leela (through use of Maya Shakti) He projects infinite variety to amuse Himself. ”So acynthia beda abeda tattva, inconceivably one in quality and different in quantity, we are "madeby god" and "of god" but we are quantitatively different from god. And this is logic but simultaneously inconceivable because in the mundane world it is impossible to see unity and plurality together.” You stated that there is delusion because of which individuals think themselves as bodies. And you now say that plurality as perceived and unity of all souls are both inconceivably two truths since in mundane world it is impossible to see the unity and plurality simultaneously. This is like a person saying in a dark room: “no chair exists” But when light comes, he sees that there indeed is a chair and he says: “a chair exists”. Then what is the truth. Is there a chair or there is no chair? Both cannot be true at same time. One-ness appearing as differences due to operation of Maya cannot be Oneness and difference both. If Bheda is true then Bheda is true always. Bheda cannot become Abheda on removal of delusion. The truth is God. It is eternal. It cannot depend on removal of Maya. What one perceives as truth on account of Maya cannot be true. I WILL GIVE ANOTHER EXAMPLE HERE: You see a car and say: “this car has no wheels and thus cannot move”. At this time it is your perception of what you see. This has superimposition of Maya since it also your perception that all cars should have wheels. Now, you learn that the car you perceived as a car without wheels does not need wheels and is a complete one car (it has some inbuilt mechanism which acts as wheels). Now, you will modify your perception and say: This car has internal wheels and can move. Through removal of Avidya, your perception has attained the truth but the truth from the beginning was: “This car can move”. Truth cannot change. Then it is not truth but Avidya. "5. If the expansion is immanent, with distinct boundaries, and not in terms of the same spirit that the Original soul is, then either the immanent expansion is not complete as the original or the source diminishes and therefore does not remain eternally unchanging. ••i have not understood, please re-explain if you want.." This has become irrelevant since you accept “distinct souls are qualitatively same”. "If there are millions of different types of matter then there would be equal numbers of eternal souls? ••16400000 species of material bodies (because matter is limited) and infinite number of souls (because spirit is unlimited)" You have accepted that each of these souls is qualitatively same. And soul being omnipresent cannot be separated by bodies. It being omnipresent, it is not possible that it does not pervade flesh. Since body is Maya and non-eternal, the apparent many souls partitioned by Maya body cannot be real and eternal. So soul is one eternally. "If Brahman and the expanded souls are distinct, then there is no cause and effect. There is no linkage between the cause (Brahman) and the effect (the individual souls). •••atma and paramatma are as i have explained surely also ONE... " You say Atma and Param Atma are surely one. So we have no difference of opinion. You are saying what I have been saying all through. "When Vedas say “So Hum”, does it not say that “This and THAT are identical”. It does not say that the soul forgets. You cannot contradict Shruti. ••vedas and vedic scriptures are to be studied as a whole. Impersonalism or advaitism or even buddhism, have surely a logic ------ you discover that beyond the material world and the negation of the material world, there's a spiritual world. For this reason i do not say that brahman realization is false or brahman is not there, i say that there's something beyond" We established that in spiritual world the souls have same quality. You stated that differences are due to delusion. If Vedas say: Indra exists, Vayu exists, it is stating apparent facts. To know apparent facts you do not need Vedas. When Vedas state: So Hum, it is stating something that deluded Jiva have no way of knowing. That is the purport of Vedas. Vedas will be of no value, if it were to only say that: Atanu is Jiva. Everyone knows that. But, when it states: “Thou art That”, it is fulfilling a function that no other literature can fulfill. You say: there's something beyond. What is beyond realizing: SO HUM? What is beyond Brahman? We have accepted as the first premise that Brahman is all. So, what can be beyond realizing the truth of Veda: SO HUM? "In sushupti Jiva attains oneness with pure consciousness. Though Maya exists, they do not know of Maya in this state. ••if you obtain any true spiritual achievement in any state of consciousness you do not come back. After liberation you do not come back. The same, you have to interprete vedas and connected literature as the whole." Yes that is true. Permanent spiritual attainment does not come out of Shushupti. But, Vedas declare that Shushupti gives a hint of what it is like to be in one-ness with Brahman. Sata saumya tadasampanno bhavati, svayamapito bhavati. Sati sampadya na viduh. In sushupti Jiva attains oneness with pure consciousness. Though Maya exists, they do not know of Maya in this state. When in Shushpti, Jiva attains oneness with Param Atman and therefore does not recognize Maya (though it exists along side the Jiva). So, if you attain Brahman through your karma/bhakti/jnana and not in sleep, then Maya will not exist for you and you will attain one-ness with Param Atman. "Does your personality remain eternally same within Krishna? Next dress of yours may be a rock, will your personality persist? ••at the transcendental level our behaviour can surely change because changement is a feature, and spirit cannot miss any feature-----a rock's body we will mantain the "life" ... very hidden and difficult to perceive for other because it is very heavily covered by maya... it's a rock body!!" So, a personality is not eternal. You cannot equate a non-eternal thing to Brahman. "Non eternal shadows are the manifestations of Maya, but in essence it is One soul. ••and this is our opinions difference... you belief that variety is maya... but maya comes from bhagavan and maya cannot have more features than bhagavan" Opinion differs because of different perception of nature of Maya. Maya has no features but has only one quality of reflecting. It is simply a tool with Bhagawan who sees infinite splendor of HIMSELF using it. Maya is approximately like a mirror, using which God sees Himself as Gokul or Atanu. The delusion is that I may think that I see Atanu. "••there's no beginning or creation (in western/christian sense)... souls ----, god's eternal parts are obviously eternal.. so we are one with god in eternity-----." God’s eternal parts cannot have non-God like qualities. " ••there's ----- And The perverted version of Lilas in the material world is karma law.. causes and effects." Perverted versions of Leela cannot be taken as truth. Dear Auspicious Guest Friend You have mentioned that you recognize Buddha and Shankaracharya as good effects who taught mortal beings that stresses and strifes of material existence are not as real as we think. It is true. But, their teachings are something more. You may not agree but I request you to read on with calmness that is your hallmark. Buddha first stressed that life’s pleasures are fleeting and are actually the cause of much pain. He did not much emphasize the eternity. But Sankara, changed my perspective. I first realized that he was an eternity man. Then, I also realized that I can also be that eternity. With our focus on material existence, we do not see the all pervading Brahman. When a jiva shifts the focus, to the Brahman -- within, without and everywhere -- the whole perspective changes. Like, during a frightening dream, it is not possible to think that there is a pleasurable waking life, similarly facing the difficulties of waking life; it is difficult to imagine that there is an eternal blissful life beyond the waking bodily life. Siva-Ramana-Sankara did this for me. Every jiva has some especial emotional requirement, so there are several paths. All lead to same place. There are also some differences as to what that special final place is like. But, is it that important to know? It is better to reach there according to whatever method suits one’s temperament (your term personality). I am sometimes pained with reactions in this site. But then I understand, painful reactions come so that one can transcend them. So, everything is necessary. I may not be able to reply to your posts for sometime due to certain pre occupation. Still I will try. Atanu

I have listened Atanu

Dear Guest Hori bol Hori bol I request you to please answer ‘the Who’ and ‘the How’ to the questions and nothing else. Before this dress of yours with 2 holes for eyes, 2 holes for ears etc. came into existence: 1. How did you know that you did karma/bhakti? 2. Who else knows that you did karma/bhakti? When this dress of yours with 2 holes for eyes, 2 holes for ears etc. will go: 1. How will you know that you would be doing karma/bhakti? 2. Who else will give witness that you are actually doing karma/Bhakti? By the way deep sleep and coma states are different. In coma the brain is dead. In deep sleep brain is not dead. After coma, you do not come back. In deep sleep you exist but do not see the world. Do you forget? It is not streching. It is a winner. Om, Namah Sivaya. Om Namah Bhagavate Shri Vasudevaya Namah. Hori Bol, Hori Bol Atanu

Priya-Vaishnava, Yes, Congratulations. That the objective truth, independent of the observer’s limited faculties and still more limited machines, will never be known is already known to science. Observer when measuring introduces Uncertainty in the objective truth. This is known as uncertainty principle in science. Even when mind attempts to grasp truth it uses some energy which interferes with the objective truth. So, we in India know from times immemorial that all knowledge exists in Brahman, that knowledge needs no rational derivation and that intuitive flash during meditation, when mind is non-existent reveals the knowledge. But since expression is again through limited faculties, the objective truth can never be expressed and understood. So, the objective truth can not be understood and expressed. But, it can be realized. Science knows much more of the objective truth than it knew at the time the Vedas were written. But what Vedas told at that time is being unravelled today. But, possibly, the objective truth will never be known from our sense organs. Einstein and others have shown that matter is huge storehouse of energy. Uncontrollable amounts of energy would be released if matter were to be fully converted to energy. Einstein has told us that matter and energy are same. Modern physicists also know that a set of proton-antiproton-pion particles can evolve out of void and again resolve into the void. Such creation, apparently out of nothing, goes on all the time. Physicists now know that what we call void is repository of all forms and unlimited energy. But physicists only have a hint but no definite knowledge that the void is also conscious and intelligent. God is this non-dual void equipped with infinite consciousness. No one will ever know the equations that govern the super intelligent void. A report written by me will not know me but I will know the report. This is advaita philosophy, known to India since Upanishads -- greatest contribution of India’s numerous sages. Modern physics is a sub set of this knowledge of Vedas. Great scientists agree. Physics as of today has no way to incorporate the parameters related to the consciousness of the omniscient soul of the universe. And since, the mind is a tool of this soul and not the other way around, mind may not grasp the truth – the desire and the ways of the soul, in analytical fashion ever. This physics knows as uncertainty principle, which states: At any moment either the position or momentum of a body can be known accurately and it is never possible to know both position and momentum of a body at a particular moment. Heisenberg and Bohr held to this position. But Einstein maintained that “God does not play dice and there is only one truth and that truth is knowable eventually”. Both the above positions are true and false. From the perspective of Avidya, uncertainty will reign supreme forever. But from the perspective of Vidya, the truth is eternally one. There are two states of truth: non-eternal Avidya and eternal Vidya. Jiva, when absorbed in the Self, has no other than the Self. There is no avidya; everything is known, since there is nothing to know. Congrtulations to you. Atanu

Oh. Dear Madhav, Don’t be angry. Patience and faith please. He sees everything and creates most perfect solution. One Arjun may be on the way. ”why we got these? because people like you who spend all the time in preaching the hindus who already are non violent an teh victoms if islam, and who never made a civilized person out of a muslim. did yoy ever spen time on a muslim forum? what you tell them there?” what respose you ggot there?” Madhav, do you think that we can do what you claimed we have done? Do you believe in what you are saying? Can I or anybody do something that He does not want? Please, don’t think it ever again. ”<< We must one day realize the truth of what Bhushan has pointed out in his post. >> we must one day realize the truth of what krishna has pointed out in gita. is bhushan or you above krishna?” No. Bhushan, me, you, Muslims, Christians -- no one is above Him. He contains all. He knows all. He does all. I agree I am a coward. Why don’t you take up a gun and do what He wants? Why be angry at others? Atanu

Dear Guest 1. “What is inspiration? Is it just the good thoughts of him, or is it something else? ••shakti, power” Yes it is Lord’s shakti. And it is his vision. 2. ”Do you see your personality in your deep sleep? That would indeed be a new scientific discovery. ••sleep regenerating is an activity, activity means life, life means activity, activity means plurality of subjects, plurality means different personality/ies” You exist in deep sleep but you do not see your personality and the world why? Answer why and nothing else please. 3. ”Transcendental desire only has lead to a caussal and material body. ••transcendental is not material.... spiritual life is necessary because we have life in this world, variety is necessary because we have variety in this world, variety is exchanging services, moods, feelings.... this comes from desires... so there's desires also in spiritual world. But being world, circumstances and subjects transcendental.... also desires are transcendental” I maintain that transcendental desire has only lead to causal and material body that you think you are. Whose desire it is? 4. ”You do not have your understanding correct. •••logic.... i help you... where's the merging? if i merge there's no more one and another and one is no more helping the other.” There is no merging. There is only one who sees the variety. You only believe that you see the variety. He is one and He only sees the variety to enjoy himself. All movements exist in Him and He only sees the movement and variety. Due to dark sheath of desire, the divine light Visnu is not seen by you and you imagine that your body, mind, and soul are independent. You don’t see that it one Visnu alone who sees everything. 5. prove that you will eternally love your God ••god is eternal by definition, i am eternal because i am a part of him and he cannot have non eternal parts, the only possible relation is uninterested and unselfish love because he does not need anything by me and he's the sum of all qualities, all attractive (=krsna) so it is impossible to not love him eternally. if we are conditioned we love his energy (maya) if we are liberated we love him in his supreme personality (satcitananda rupa) 6. ”You are not eternal. Can you prove that you were there before you took birth? Please prove it? •••we perceive the reality of the body as a changing reality, there's birth, increase, decrease, death and illness... but the life, the sensation to exist never change. You feel to exist a second after birth and a second before death.. exactly in the same way. You do not exist more or less, you exist and that's all, so this existence does not obviously come from the matter, because the matter increase and decrease and get sick. So existence comes from another dimension, from the dimension where there's not increasing and decreasing, but everything simply "exists" eternally. Eternal means after and before.. otherwise there's no eternity.” 7. Who will do it after your body goes? ••your body meand that i am i and body is mine... when the body goes i remain me and i take a material body if i have to act in the material world or i come back in the spiritual world if i am realized for krsna's mercy 8. How do you know that you will exist? ••because, as i have explained before in this message, life is somewhat perceived independent by body. You exist as a baby, you exist as a young man, you exist as a mature man, you exist as an old man , you exist as a one who is to die in a minute... you exist.. no changes, so logically no changes before the conception or after the death. 9. Please demonstrate that you served Him before your birth and you will serve after you die. ••already done.. but it is also possible to say that one gets a certain life by karma and he gets the next also by karma... karma law is krishna, so following (forced by nature) it is following and serving krsna 10. Who will be there to know? ••logic is a good source of consciousness.. i try to use it 11. How will you know that you are eternally serving Him? •••karma when we are conditioned, bhakti when we will be liberated To questions 5 to 11 above you have stated many things which are not straight answers. I will put the questions again. a) Who did Karma/bhakti when you were not born (when your sense organs were not there) b) Who will do karma/bhakti when you will pass away? (when your sense organs will not be there) c) How did you know that you performed Karma/bhati when you were not born d) How will you know that you are doing karma/bhakti after your departure e) Who else is the witness to your acts of Karma/Bhakti when your body (sense organs) was not there f) Who else will be witness to your acts of Karma/Bhakti when your body (senses) go. I request you to please answer ‘the Who’ and ‘the How’ to above questions and nothing else. Atanu

Dear Friends lets celebrate BHAJA GOVINDAM Ù¸Ó¸ Š¸¸½¹¨¸›™¿ Ù¸Ó¸ Š¸¸½¹¨¸›™¿ Ù¸Ó¸ Š¸¸½¹¨¸›™¿ Ÿ¸»ÜŸ¸÷¸½ — 㸿œÏ¸œ÷¸½ 㸹››¸¹Ú÷¸½ ˆÅ¸¥¸½ ›¸ ¹Ú ›¸ ¹Ú £®¸¹÷¸ ´ºˆ¼Å‘¸Ã ˆÅ£µ¸½ —— bhaja govindam bhaja govindam bhaja govindam müãhamate, samprápte sannihite kále na hi na hi rakúati dukøòkaraïe.(1) Adore the Lord, adore the Lord, adore the Lord, O fool! when the appointed time (for departure) comes, the repetition of grammatical rules will not, indeed, save you. Ÿ¸»Ü Ó¸Úú¹Ú š¸›¸¸Š¸Ÿ¸÷¸¼«µ¸¸¿ ˆºÅ² 㸙Ã⸺ëÖ Ÿ¸›¸¹ã¸ ¹¨¸÷¸¼«µ¸¸Ÿ¸Ã — ¡¸¥¦Ù¸Ó¸½ ¹›¸Ó¸ ˆÅŸ¸¸½Äœ¸¸î¸¿ ¹¨¸î¸¿ ÷¸½›¸ ¹¨¸›¸¸½™¡¸ ¹Þ¸î¸Ÿ¸Ã —— müãha jahèni dhanágamatøúïám kuru sadbuddhim manasi vitøúïám, yal-labhase nijakarmopáttam vittam tena vinodaya cittam.(2) O fool! leave off the desire for accumulation of wealth; create in the mind, thoughts about Reality, devoid of passion. What you get - i.e. what you have achieved through your past deeds - with that, satisfy your mind. ›¸¸£úã÷¸›¸Ù¸£›¸¸Ù¸ú™½ª¸¿ ™Ã™«’踸 Ÿ¸¸ Š¸¸ Ÿ¸¸½Ú¸¨¸½ª¸Ÿ¸Ã — ‡÷¸›Ÿ¸¸¿ã¸¨¸ã¸¸¹™¹¨¸ˆÅ¸£¿ Ÿ¸›¸¹ã¸ ¹¨¸¹Þ¸›÷¸¡¸ ¨¸¸£¿ ¨¸¸£Ÿ¸Ã —— nárèstanabharanábhèdeùam døúûvá má gá moháveùam, etan-mámsavasádi-vikáram manasi vicintaya váram váram.(3) Seeing the seductive female form, do not fall prey to frenzied delusion. That (female form) is (but) a modification of flesh and fat. Think well thus in your mind and again and again. ›¸¹¥¸›¸ú™¥¸Š¸÷¸Ó¸¥¸Ÿ¸¹÷¸÷¸£¥¸¿ ÷¸×ÓÓ¸ú¹¨¸÷¸Ÿ¸¹÷¸ª¸¡¸Þ¸œ¸¥¸Ÿ¸Ã — ¹¨¸¹Ö ¨¡¸¸š¡¸¹Ù¸Ÿ¸¸›¸ŠÏã÷¸¿ ¥¸¸½ˆ¿Å ª¸¸½ˆÅÚ÷¸¿ Þ¸ 㸟¸ã÷¸Ÿ¸Ã —— nalinèdalagatajalam atitaralam tadvaj-jèvitam atiùayacapalam, viddhi vyádhy-abhimána-grastam lokam ùokahatam ca samastam.(4) The water on the lotus-leaf is very unsteady; so also is life extremely unstable. Know that the entire world is devoured by disease and conceit, and smitten with sorrow. ¡¸¸¨¸¹×½œ¸¸Ó¸Ä›¸ã¸Æ÷¸- ã÷¸¸¨¸¹››¸Ó¸œ¸¹£¨¸¸£¸½ £Æ÷¸À — œ¸ä¸¸ÓÓ¸ú¨¸¹÷¸ ӸӸģ™½Ú½ ¨¸¸÷¸¸ô ˆÅ¸½¹œ¸ ›¸ œ¸¼Þع÷¸ Š¸½Ú½ —— yávad-vittopárjana-saktas- távan-nija-pariváro raktaç paùcáj-jivati jarjara-dehe vártam kopi na pøcchati gehe.(5) As long as you have the ability to earn money, so long will your dependents be attached to you. After that, when you live with an infirm body no one world even speak to you a word. ¡¸¸¨¸÷œ¸¨¸›¸¸½ ¹›¸¨¸ã¸¹÷¸ ™½Ú½ ÷¸¸¨¸÷œ¸¼Þع÷¸ ˆºÅª¸¥¸¿ Š¸½Ú½ — Š¸÷¸¨¸¹÷¸ ¨¸¸¡¸¸¾ ™½Ú¸œ¸¸¡¸½ Ù¸¸¡¸¸Ä ¹â¸Ù¡¸¹÷¸ ÷¸¹ãŸ¸›ˆÅ¸¡¸½ —— yávat-pavano nivasati dehe távat-pøcchati kuùalam gehe, gatavati váyau dehápáye bháryá bibhyati tasmin káye.(6) As long as there is breath in the body, so long people in the household ask about one's welfare. Once the breath leaves, on the destruction of the body, the dependents dread that very same body. ⸸¥¸ã÷¸¸¨¸÷ÇÅú´¸ã¸Æ÷¸ã÷¸²µ¸ã÷¸¸¨¸î¸²µ¸úã¸Æ÷¸À — ¨¸¼Öã÷¸¸¨¸¹‘Þ¸›÷¸¸ã¸Æ÷¸À œ¸£½ âϯ¸¹µ¸ ˆÅ¸½¹œ¸ ›¸ ã¸Æ÷¸À —— bálastávat kriãásaktas- taruïastávat taruïèsaktaç vøddhastávac-cintásaktaç pare brahamïi ko'pi na saktaç(7) When a boy, one is attached to sport; when a youth, one is attached to as young woman; when old. one is attached to anxiety; to the supreme Brahman, no one, alas, is attached! ˆÅ¸ ÷¸½ ˆÅ›÷¸¸ ˆÅã÷¸½ œ¸º°¸À 㸿㸸£¸½¡¸Ÿ¸÷¸ú¨¸ ¹¨¸¹Þ¸°¸À — ˆÅ㡸 ÷¨¸¿ ˆÅÀ ˆºÅ÷¸ ‚¸¡¸¸÷¸ã÷¸î¨¸¿ ¹Þ¸›÷¸¡¸ ÷¸¹™Ú Ùϸ÷¸À —— ká te kánte kaste putraç samsáro'yam atèva vicitraç, kasya tvam kaç kuta áyátas- tattvam cintaya tadihaq, bhrátah.(8) Who is your wife? Who is your son? Exceedingly wonderful, indeed, is this empirical process! Of whom are you? Who are you? Whence have you come? O brother, think of that truth here. ã¸÷㸌ʸ½÷¨¸½ ¹›¸ã㸌ʸ÷¨¸¿ ¹›¸ã㸌ʸ÷¨¸½ ¹›¸Ÿ¸¸½ÄÚ÷¨¸Ÿ¸Ã — ¹›¸Ÿ¸¸½ÄÚ÷¨¸½ ¹›¸ä¸¹¥¸÷¸÷¨¸¿ ¹›¸ä¸¹¥¸÷¸÷¨¸½½ Ó¸ú¨¸›Ÿ¸º¹Æ÷¸À —— Satsañgatve nissañgatvam nissañgatve nèrmohatvam nirmohatve niùcalitatvam niùcalitatve jèvanmuktiç.(9) Through the company of the good, there arises non-attachment; through non-attachment, there arises freedom from delution; through delusionless-ness, there arises steadfastness; through steadfastness, there arises liberation in life. ¨¸¡¸¹ã¸ Š¸÷¸½ ˆÅÀ ˆÅ¸Ÿ¸¹¨¸ˆÅ¸£À ª¸º«ˆ½Å ›¸ú£½ ˆÅÀ ˆÅ¸ã¸¸£À — ®¸úµ¸½ ¹¨¸î¸½ ˆÅÀ œ¸¹£¨¸¸£¸½ ±¸¸÷¸½ ÷¸÷¨¸½ ˆÅÀ 㸿㸸£À —— Vayasi gate kaç kámavikáraç Ùuúke nire kaç kásáraç kúiïe vitte kaç pariváro iòáte tattve kaç samsáraç.(10) When youth is spent, what lustful play is there? When the water has evaporated, what lake is there? When the money is gone, what dependents are there? When the truth is known, what empirical process is there? Ÿ¸¸ ˆºÅ² š¸›¸Ó¸›¸¡¸¸¾¨¸›¸Š¸¨¸ô Ú£¹÷¸ ¹›¸Ÿ¸½«¸¸÷ˆÅ¸¥¸À 㸨¸ÄŸ¸Ã — Ÿ¸¸¡¸¸Ÿ¸¡¸¹Ÿ¸™Ÿ¸¹‰¸¥¸¿ ¹Ú÷¨¸¸ âϯ¸œ¸™¿ ÷¨¸¿ œÏ¹¨¸ª¸ ¹¨¸¹™÷¨¸¸ —— má kuru dhanajanayauvanagarvam harati nimeúát kalaç sarvam, máyámayam idam akhilam hitvá, brahmapadam tvam praviùa viditvá.(11) Do not be proud of wealth, kindred, and youth; Time takes away all these in a moment. Leaving aside this entire (world) which is of the nature of an illusion, and knowing the state of Brahman, enter into it. ¹™›¸¡¸¸¹Ÿ¸›¡¸¸¾ 㸸¡¸¿ œÏ¸÷¸À ¹ª¸¹ª¸£¨¸ã¸›÷¸¸¾ œ¸º›¸£¸¡¸¸÷¸À — ˆÅ¸¥¸À ÇÅú´¹÷¸ Š¸ÞØ÷¡¸¸¡¸º- ã÷¸™¹œ¸ ›¸ Ÿ¸º‘Þ¸÷¡¸¸ª¸¸¨¸¸¡¸ºÀ —— dinayáminyau sáyam prátaç ùèùiravasantau punar-áyátaç kálaç krèãati gacchaty-áyus- tapapi na muòcaty-áùaváyuç.(12) Day and night, dusk and dawn, winter and spring come repeatedly; Time sports, life is fleeting; yet one does not leave the winds of desire. ˆÅ¸ ÷¸½ ˆÅ¸›÷¸¸ š¸›¸Š¸÷¸¹Þ¸›÷¸¸ ¨¸¸÷¸º¥¸ ëˆÅ ÷¸¨¸ ›¸¸¹ã÷¸ ¹›¸¡¸›÷¸¸ — ¹°¸Ó¸Š¸¹÷¸ ã¸ÓÓ¸›¸ã¸¿Š¸¹÷¸£½ˆÅ¸ Ù¸¨¸¹÷¸ Ù¸¨¸¸µ¸Ä¨¸÷¸£µ¸½ ›¸¸¾ˆÅ¸ — ká te kántá-dhana-gata-cintá vátula kim tava násti nivantá trijagati sajjana sañgatir eká bhavati bhavárïava-taraïe nauká.(13) Why worry about wife, wealth, etc., O crazy one; is there not for you the one who ordains? In the three worlds, it is only the association with good people that can serve as the boat that can carry one across the sea of birth. Ó¸¹’¥¸¸½ Ÿ¸ºµ´ú ¥¸¼¹‘Ø÷¸ˆ½Åª¸À ˆÅ¸«¸¸¡¸¸Ÿâ¸£â¸Úººˆ¼Å÷¸¨¸½«¸À — œ¸ª¡¸››¸¹œ¸ Þ¸ ›¸ œ¸ª¡¸¹÷¸ Ÿ¸»Ü¸½ ฺ™£¹›¸¹Ÿ¸î¸¿ â¸Úºˆ¼Å÷¸ˆ½Åª¸À —— jaûilo muïãi luòchitakeùaç káúayámbarabahukøtaveúaç paùyannapi ca na paùyati müãho hyundaranimittam bahukøtaveúaç.(14) The ascetic with matted lock, the one with his head shaven, the one with hairs pulled out one by one, the one who disguises himself variously with the ochre-coloured robes - such a one is a fool who, though seeing, does not see. Indeed, this varied disguise is for the sake of the belly. ‚ŒÃŠ¸¿ Š¸¹¥¸÷¸¿ œ¸¹¥¸÷¸¿ Ÿ¸ºµ´¿ ™ª¸›¸¹¨¸Úú›¸¿ Ó¸¸÷¸¿ ÷µ´Ÿ¸Ã — ¨¸¼Ö¸½ ¡¸¸¹÷¸ Š¸¼Úú÷¨¸¸ ™µ´¿ ÷¸™¹œ¸ ›¸ Ÿ¸º‘Þ¸÷¡¸¸ª¸¸¹œ¸µ´Ÿ¸Ã —— aïgam gallitam palitam muïãam daùanavihinam játam tuïãam vøddho yáti gøhitvá daïãam tadapi na muòcaty-áùapiïãam.(15) The body has become decrepit; the head has turned grey; the mouth has been rendered toothless; grasping a stick, the old man moves about. Even then, the mass of desires does not go. ‚ŠÏ½ ¨¸¹ÚÛ¸À œ¸¼«’½ Ù¸¸›¸» £¸°¸¸¾ Þ¸ºâ¸ºˆÅ㸟¸¹œ¸Ä÷¸Ó¸¸›¸ºÀ — ˆÅ£÷¸¥¸¹Ù¸®¸ã÷¸²÷¸¥¸¨¸¸ã¸ ã÷¸™¹œ¸ ›¸ Ÿ¸º‘Þ¸÷¡¸¸ª¸¸œ¸¸ª¸À —— agre vanhiç pøúûhe bhánü rátrau cubuka-samarpita-jánuç karatalabhikúas tarutalavásas tapadi na muòcaty-áùapáùaç.(16) In front, there is fire; at the back, there is the sin; in the night, (the ascetic sits) with the knees stuck to the chin; he receives alms in his palms, and lives under the trees; yet the bondage of desire does not leave him. ˆºÅ²÷¸½ Š¸ŒÃŠ¸¸ã¸¸Š¸£Š¸Ÿ¸›¸¿ ¨Ï÷¸œ¸¹£œ¸¸¥¸›¸Ÿ¸˜¸¨¸¸ ™¸›¸Ÿ¸Ã — ±¸¸›¸¹¨¸Úú›¸À 㸨¸ÄŸ¸÷¸½›¸ Ÿ¸º¹Æ÷¸¿ ›¸ Ù¸Ó¸¹÷¸ Ó¸›Ÿ¸ª¸÷¸½›¸ —— kurute gañgáságaragamanam vrataparipálnam athava dánam, jòánavihènaç sarvamatena muktim na bhajati janmaùatena.(17) One goes on pilgrimage to the place where the Gañgá joins the sea; or observe the religious vows with care; or offers gifts. But if he be devoid of knowledge, he does not gain release-according to all schools of thought-even in a hundred lives. 㸺£Ÿ¸¹›™£÷¸²Ÿ¸»¹›¸¨¸¸ã¸À ª¸¡¡¸¸ Ù¸»÷¸¥¸Ÿ¸¹Ó¸›¸¿ ¨¸¸ã¸À — 㸨¸Äœ¸¹£ŠÏÚ Ù¸¸½Š¸÷¡¸¸Š¸À ˆÅ㡸 㸺‰¸¿ ›¸ ˆÅ£¸½¹÷¸ ¹¨¸£¸Š¸À —— suramandiratarumülanivásaç ùayyá bhütalam ajinam vásaç sarvaparigrahabhogatyágaç kasya sukham na karoti virágaç.(18) Living in temples or at the foot of trees, sleeping on the ground, wearing deer-skin, renouncing all possessions and their enjoyment - to whom will not dispassion bring happiness? ¡¸¸½Š¸£÷¸¸½ ¨¸¸ Ù¸¸½Š¸£÷¸¸½ ¨¸¸ 㸌ʸ£÷¸¸½ ¨¸¸ 㸌ʸ¹¨¸Úú›¸À — ¡¸ã¡¸ âϯ¸¹µ¸ £Ÿ¸÷¸½ ¹Þ¸î¸¿ ›¸›™¹÷¸ ›¸›™¹÷¸ ›¸›™÷¡¸½¨¸ —— yogarato vá bhogarato vá sañgarato va sañgavihènaç yasya brahmaïni ramate cittam nandati nandati nandaty-eva.(19) Let one practice concentration; or let one indulge in sense-enjoyment. Let one find pleasure in company; or in solitude. He alone is happy, happy, verily happy, whose mind revels in Brahman. Ù¸Š¸¨¸Íú÷¸¸ ¹ˆÅ¹‘Þ¸™š¸ú÷¸¸ Š¸ŒÃŠ¸¸Ó¸¥¸¥¸¨¸ˆÅ¹µ¸ˆÅ¸ œ¸ú÷¸¸ — 㸈¼Å™¹œ¸ ¡¸½›¸ Ÿ¸º£¸¹£ã¸Ÿ¸Þ¸¸Ä ¹ÇÅ¡¸÷¸½ ÷¸ã¡¸ ¡¸Ÿ¸½›¸ ›¸ Þ¸Þ¸¸Ä —— bhagavadgètá kiòcid-adhitá gañgáialalavakaïiká pètá, sakûød-api yena murári-samarcá kriyate tasya yamena na carcá.(20) For him, who has studied the Bhagavadgitá even a little, who has drunk a drop of the Gañgá-water, and who has performed the worship of the Destroyer of the demon Mura (viz. Ùri Køúïa) at least once, there is no tiff with Yama (the lord of death). œ¸º›¸£¹œ¸ Ó¸›¸›¸¿ œ¸º›¸£¹œ¸ Ÿ¸£µ¸¿ œ¸º›¸£¹œ¸ Ó¸›¸›¸úӸȣ½ ª¸¡¸›¸Ÿ¸Ã — ƒÚ 㸿㸸£½ â¸Úº™ºã÷¸¸£½ ˆ¼Åœ¸¡¸¸œ¸¸£½ œ¸¸¹Ú Ÿ¸º£¸£½ —— punarapi jananam punarapi masraïam punarabi jananè-jaûhare ùayanam, iha samsáre bahu-dustáre køpaya' páre páhi muráre.(21) Repeated birth, repeated death, and repeated lying in mother's womb - this transmigratory process is extensive and difficult to cross; save me, O Destroyer of Mura (O Køúïa), through your grace! £˜¡¸¸Þ¸œ¸Ä’¹¨¸£¹Þ¸÷¸ˆÅ›˜¸À œ¸ºµ¡¸¸œ¸ºµ¡¸¹¨¸¨¸¹Ó¸Ä÷¸œ¸›˜¸À — ¡¸¸½Š¸ú ¡¸¸½Š¸¹›¸¡¸¸½¹Ó¸÷¸¹Þ¸÷¸¸½ £Ÿ¸÷¸½ ⸸¥¸¸›Ÿ¸î¸¨¸™½¨¸ —— rathyá-carpata-viracita-kanthaç puïyápuïya-vivarjita-panthaç, yogi yoga-niyojita-citto ramate bálonmattavad-eva.(22) He who wears a dress made of rags that lie about in the streets, he who walks in the path that is beyond merit and demerit the yogin whose mind is given up to yoga revels (in Brahman) just as a child or as a mad-man. ˆÅã÷¨¸¿ ˆÅ¸½Ú¿ ˆºÅ÷¸ ‚¸¡¸¸÷¸À ˆÅ¸ Ÿ¸½ Ó¸›¸›¸ú ˆÅ¸½ Ÿ¸½ ÷¸¸÷¸À — ƒ¹÷¸ œ¸¹£Ù¸¸¨¸¡¸ 㸨¸ÄŸ¸ã¸¸£¿ ¹¨¸ª¨¸¿ ÷¡¸Æ÷¨¸¸ 㨸œ›¸¹¨¸Þ¸¸£Ÿ¸Ã —— kastvam ko'ham kuta áyátaç ká me jananè ko me tátaç, iti paribhávaya sarvam asáram viùvam tyaktvá svapnavicáram.(23) Who are you? Whom am I? Whence have I come? Who is my mother? Who, my father? Thus enquire, leaving aside the entire world which is comparable to a dream, and is essenceless. ÷¨¸¹¡¸ Ÿ¸¹¡¸ Þ¸¸›¡¸°¸¾ˆÅ¸½ ¹¨¸«µ¸º- ¨¡¸Ä˜¸ô ˆºÅœ¡¸¹ã¸ Ÿ¸¡¡¸ã¸¹Ú«µ¸ºÀ — 㸨¸Ä¹ãŸ¸››¸¹œ¸ œ¸ª¡¸¸÷Ÿ¸¸›¸¿ 㸨¸Ä°¸¸½÷㸼Ӹ Ù¸½™¸±¸¸›¸Ÿ¸Ã —— tvayi mayi cányatraiko viúïur- vyartham kupyasi maasahiúïuç, sarvasminnapi paùyátmánam sarvatrotsøja bhedájòánam.(24) In you, in me, and elsewhere too, there is but one Viúïu (God). Vainly do you get angry with me, being impatient. See the Self in all things, and leave off everywhere ignorance which is the cause of difference. ª¸°¸¸¾ ¹Ÿ¸°¸½ œ¸º°¸½ ⸛š¸¸¾ Ÿ¸¸ ˆºÅ² ¡¸÷°¸¿ ¹¨¸ŠÏÚ㸛š¸¸¾ — Ù¸¨¸ 㸟¸¹Þ¸î¸¿À 㸨¸Ä°¸ ÷¨¸¿ ¨¸¸‘Ø㡸¹Þ¸£¸Ô¸¸¹™ ¹¨¸«µ¸º÷¨¸Ÿ¸Ã —— Ùatrau mitre putre bandhau má kuru yatnam vigrahasandhau, bhava samacittaç sarvatra tvam vánchasyacirád yadi viúïutvam.(25) Make no effort to be either at war with, or in league with, enemy, friend, son, or relative. If you want to attain the status of Viúïu (Godhood) soon, be equal-minded towards all things. ˆÅ¸Ÿ¸¿ ÇŸ½š¸¿ ¥¸¸½Ù¸¿ Ÿ¸¸½Ú¿ ÷¡¸Æ÷¨¸¸÷Ÿ¸¸›¸¿ Ù¸¸¨¸¡¸ ˆÅ¸½ÚŸ¸Ã — ‚¸÷Ÿ¸±¸¸›¸¹¨¸Úú›¸¸ Ÿ¸»Ü¸- ã÷¸½ œ¸Þ¡¸›÷¸½ ›¸£ˆÅ¹›¸Š¸»Ü¸À —— kámam krodham lobham moham tyaktvá'tmánam bhávaya ko'ham átmjòanavihèná muãhás te pacyante narakanigüãháç.(26) Leaving off desire, anger, greed, and delusion, make self-inquiry; who am I? They are fools who are without Self-knowledge; as captives in hell, they are tortured. Š¸½¡¸¿ Š¸ú÷¸¸›¸¸Ÿ¸ã¸Ú踿 š¡¸½¡¸¿ ýúœ¸¹÷¸³œ¸Ÿ¸Ó¸è¸Ÿ¸Ã — ›¸½¡¸¿ ã¸ÓÓ¸›¸ã¸ŒÃŠ¸½ ¹Þ¸î¸¿ ™½¡¸¿ ™ú›¸Ó¸›¸¸¡¸ Þ¸ ¹¨¸î¸Ÿ¸Ã —— geyam gètánámasahasram dhyeyam ùrèpatirüpam ajasram neyam sajjana-sañge cittam deyam dènajanáya ca vittam(27) The Bhagavadgètá and the Sahasranáma should be sung; the form of the Lord of Lakúmè (Viúïu) should always be meditated on; the mind should be led to the company of the good; and wealth should be distributed among the indigent. 㸺‰¸÷¸À ¹ÇÅ¡¸÷¸½ £¸Ÿ¸¸Ù¸¸½Š¸À œ¸ä¸¸Ö›÷¸ ª¸£ú£½ £¸½Š¸À — ¡¸Ô¸¹œ¸ ¥¸¸½ˆ½Å Ÿ¸£µ¸¿ ª¸£µ¸¿ ÷¸™¹œ¸ ›¸ Ÿ¸º‘Þ¸¹÷¸ œ¸¸œ¸¸Þ¸£µ¸Ÿ¸Ã —— sukhataç kriyate rámábhogaç paùcáddhanta ùarère rogaç yadyapi loke maraïam ùaraïam tapapi na muòcati pápácaraïam.(28) One easily takes to carnal enjoyment afterwards, lo, there is disease of the body. Although, in the world, death is the refuge, even then one does not relinquish sinful ways. ‚˜¸ÄŸ¸›¸˜¸ô Ù¸¸¨¸¡¸¹›¸÷¡¸¿ ›¸¸¹ã÷¸ ÷¸÷¸À 㸺‰¸¥¸½ª¸À ã¸÷¡¸Ÿ¸Ã — œ¸º°¸¸™¹œ¸ š¸›¸Ù¸¸Ó¸¸¿ Ù¸ú¹÷¸À 㸨¸Ä°¸¾«¸¸ ¹¨¸¹Ú÷¸¸ £ú¹÷¸À —— artham anartham bhávaya nityam násti tataç sukhaleùaç satyam putrádapi dhanabhájam bhètiç sarvatraiúá vihitá rètiç.(29) `Wealth is no good'; thus reflect always; there is not the least happiness therefrom; this is the truth. For the wealthy, there is fear even from a son; everywhere this is the regular mode. öœÏ¸µ¸¸¡¸¸Ÿ¸¿ œÏ÷¡¸¸Ú¸£¿ ¹›¸÷¡¸¸¹›¸÷¡¸¹¨¸¨¸½ˆÅ¹¨¸Þ¸¸£Ÿ¸Ã — Ó¸¸œ¡¸ã¸Ÿ¸½÷¸ã¸Ÿ¸¸¹š¸ ¹¨¸š¸¸›¸¿ ˆºÅ¨¸Ä¨¸š¸¸›¸¿ Ÿ¸Ú™¨¸š¸¸›¸Ÿ¸Ã ——30—— práïáyámam pratyáháram nityánityavivekavicáram, jápyasametasamádhividhánam kurvavadhánam mahadavadhánam.(30) The regulation of breath, the withdrawal of the senses (from their respective objects), the inquiry consisting in the discrimination between the eternal and the non-eternal, the method of mind-control associated with the muttering of mantras - perform these with great care. Š¸º²Þ¸£µ¸¸Ÿâ¸ºÓ¸¹›¸Ù¸Ä£Ù¸Æ÷¸À — 㸿㸸£¸™¹Þ¸£¸Õ¨¸ Ÿ¸ºÆ÷¸À — 㸽þ›Í¡¸Ÿ¸¸›¸ã¸¹›¸¡¸Ÿ¸¸™½¨¸¿ Í®¡¸¹ã¸ ¹›¸Ó¸á™¡¸ã˜¸¿ ™½¨¸Ÿ¸Ã —— gurucaraïámbuja-nirbhara-bhaktaç samsárád-acirád-bhava muktaç sendriya-mánasa-niyamád-evam drakúyasi nijahødayasthqam devam.(31) Being devoted completely to the lotus-feet of the Master, become released soon from the transmigratory process. Thus, through the discipline of sense and mind-control, you will behold the Deity that resides in your heart.

Dear Madhav, Krishna did not ask Arjuna to hate either. The central teaching is that Krishna is all and everything is done by Him only. You people are such big devotees, but do you absorb this teaching? Muslims have hated and received appropriate results. Results will always be appropriate. When Krishna is Brahman, are not all Muslims within him? Then what Muslims do, over that Krishna does not have any control? Does some group of people and some deeds are outside His purview? The truth is: He is all and He does all. Bin Laden was finished after he destryoyed Bamiyan Buddhas. Shree Krishna will create evil to create examples. Dvaita has some inbuilt deficiency. It may make man fight against man if based on predujiced faith. We must one day realize the truth of what Bhushan has pointed out in his post. Atanu

Both Dvaita and Advaita are valid ways suitable at some stage or other. Main requirement is giving up the doer ship. Whether one sticks to Dvaita or jumps to Advaita makes no difference, if the sense of doer ship vests with small individual. Because individual always believes that it does the good things only. The bad things are done by the others. This brings in an important corollary. Only, faith in Advaita can lead to transfer of doer ship, both for good as well as bad deeds, to the Self. Atanu

Important answer to old post “I maintain that He is an author of songs that we are. ••agree.. there's an author and a song, a creator and a created, an emanator and an emanated... very true” Hello ji, Namaskaram, Siva-Ramana has just now told me: “Atanu you indeed are a song and akin to a wave on the ocean you have acquired a causal and material body. But sheathed within the body you indeed are what I am. Ocean is water and wave is water. My essential nature is Vishnu – the pure effulgent light and sheathed within your causal body you are That. Right now, you are Me. To experience that, is not that difficult as your manas may assume. Just dissolve your manas and see My essence -- the effulgence glowing. Yes, do not add any new desire to strengthen the causal body.” Answer to new post I also maintain that as a song I am not eternally condemned to be a song only. As a song, I will eventually merge with Him, if He wishes. You will differ here. But please do not feel that you are differing. ..a song is different from the singer... i differ , i feel that i am differing, where's the problem. Problem is that Sri Krishna has said emphatically that jiva is not the doer. Why he is not the doer? When he seems to be doing everything with his hands or his manas, then why the jiva is not the doer? There's an eternal ego of the Lord. The small egos of Jiva are not eternal ...in the lord there's anything not eternal, jivas are parts and parcels of the lord so they are eternal. Oh. You have agreed that jives are part and parcel of the Lord. Then where is the second one. A car’s battery does not make another car. There cannot me more than one soul and one will. Krishna has said it. There is only one eternal ego. ..no... otherwise we had it also in the material world.. spiritual world has'nt the variety? is it worse than material one? Illogic Why should having no separate existence be worse? Shri Krishna has already said everything is within me. Other things existing within Shri Krishna will not make another Shri Krishna. There is one Shri Krishna who is one without a second. Rudras and Vishnu are in Him. I am in Him. You are in Him. To think that Jiva's egos are eternal is the basic mistake of Dualism. This is the position of Advaita. ..this is a position, a faith, if you speak with someone you have to explain it logically and scripturally Oh, Raghu. Again scriptures? Within Shri Krishna all other things occur. They come and go. The parts are not eternal. This is very fundamental to understanding of Advaita. In sleep, when you are not dreaming ..science says that we dream all night, the thing is that we do not remember. So if you want to demonstrate that there's moments without individual existence this is not the right way No. Science knows that there is a deep sleep when our brain waves are quiescent and we don’t dream. In fact, this part of the sleep is regenerating. Meditation is similar but much more advanced since one remains conscious and still loses the sense of the phenomenon. Doctors say that even incurable and chronic diseases (of body and mind) can be controlled and cured. But Siva says do not do any sankalp during meditation. Although I will not oppose you, since nice arguments do not take us to the goal ..so why you speak? I said that I will not oppose. Did I say that I will not speak? To merge, a Jiva has to give up all desires, worldly or spiritual. ...personality is desire, so there's nothing bad in desire... the more advanced way to desire is to desire the good of the beloved without wanting any advantage for ourselves. This i sbakti, desire without any interest, desire with detachment Dear, probably, you are a young fellow. Desire itself is attachment. But desire for God is the only good desire. Siva and Visnu do not have desire. They have transcended their desires. They work only for others (in dual sense). That is why their personalities are so powerful. In modern day, sages: Rama Krishna, Ramana; scientists Einstein and Oppenheimer, statesman: Gandhi and Nelson Mandela all prove that merging the ego with a very large cause or group enhances and does not diminish the personality. Personality is not real but is an insignia of one’s worth. To enhance the worth, one dissolves the ego. Devotees of Sai will tell you the same. Are they not serving the Lord? ..if Sai is the Lord they are serving the lord.. otherwise not, they are cheated serving a cheater Oh. God. Sai devotees are you listening? Sai, I am sorry -- I should not have dragged you in. How can you, in so definite manner, claim that merging means a desire not to serve Him anymore? ..because for serving we have to be two... you are hungry and i bring to you a chapati.. if we are one who serves who? Not necessary. I can serve myself a chapatti. I can feed Vishnu who is in me. There is nothing to feel agitated about it ..no agitation, i do not want to put everyone under my theory... you maybe. I reciprocate. Advaita contains Dvaita within it. ..i do not think so... advaita destroys differences, does not concile them.. no problem for me but it is different conception not a conciliation Not conciliation but encompassing. Laws of Relativity of Einstein encompass the laws of Newton also. The problem is that Bush, a devout dualist and Bin Laden, another devout dualist do want to lose wars of ego. ..all the discussion are about advaitins or hindus who want to reunite forcibly everything under the same flag.... dvaitins and vaishnavas (acynthia beda abeda) are happy to be peacefully distinct Please, I will beg of you. No one is forcing. Please, if you think, I am forcing, I will stop immediately. Your logic is American materialistic logic. See how Hindu sages live - nude. ..not a nice answer, only insults, materialistic.... try to explain your idea instead of insult (i know plenty of sages dressed), the funny thing is that you are discussing with me treating me as a fanatic and you behave as a fanatic, intolerant and insulting You are hurt. I can see that. My intention was not that. I request your pardon. But, I will have to stop posting altogether. Or, you may declare your name, so that I do not enter into debate with you. Spirit is the source of all variety and is actually the variety ..yes.. and i say that this variety is eternal... sat, cit, ananda Variety is eternal. But not the same variety. A car will last many years but a quite a few batteries will come and go. Like white light is the source of rainbow. So, should I seek the rainbow or the light, which is the source of Light? ..in the light phenomenon the whit light is the source, in the spirit both rainbow, plurality of colors, and white light, union of colours, are eternal... both are ever existing.. not that rainbow at a certain point disappears See the answer above. Rainbow occurs at different places and of different sizes but the white light never changes its nature. I will repeat that, when sense organs die, there is only one I - the object, the Lord ..your belief Not my belief. Experience of several thousand sages. At this time, we don't have to passionately defend or sarcastically put down the other view. ..if you call sarcasm the fact that i am logically explaining my beliefs... i am sarcastic, but it is you that are you saying it Ok. You are logical. Yes, I was wrong. Sat is Him. Other things are His qualities. ..so if there's Him and qualities, you have variety, so there's variety in the absolute... and because all the existences comes from the qualities (=shakti, energies) of the lord, individuality is eternal Yes the absolute and the variety are the one and same thing. That’s what Advaita says and which I tend to believe because of better logic and experience. But to insist, that Bhaki is the only way is dogmatic. ..no... dogmatic is if there's no demonstration and discussion, i bring logical demonstrations and i have no problem to be different and first of all i have no problems if you think different. Variety, i like it. That is what the truth is. Variety you like. It need not be universal. I see more pleasure in the underlying unity. Actually, both Advaita and Dvaita are the ways of One supreme. Which is correct for you and which is correct for me? That He will choose. We are just discussing. Shree Rama Krishna did not like impersonal Advaita but Vivekanda liked it. I felt closer to emotional Rama Krishna in the beginning. So, it is actually God’s way to give many paths to suit many types of devotees. Please be clear in your mind, Advaita is useless, if one does not do Dvaita properly. It may be disastrous. Most advanced way is the most general way that will encompass everything. ..in my opinion advaita do not encompass, it destroys... for me satcitananda vigraha of the lord is absolute (for opinion and conception, not dogma), to say that's something beyond for me is not encompassing, it is blasphemy. Again i have no problem with differences, but there's differences.. i have problems with who wants to kill differences True and false. For a devotee who has perfected, through Dvaita, unselfish devotion to God and also to fellow beings, Advaita is the next step. But jumping before perfecting unselfishness will be disastrous. This all sages emphasize. Ramana says that Bhakti is the mother of jnana. Because I know that you are the "I". If I applaud the "I", who becomes happy? Can you do it? ...if i applaude someone i have no problem to applaude him knowing that him is not me Ok, very good. But you never applaud me. I feel sad. Showing preference will pull down the Jiva from the merged state, to a server state again. ..and this is our eternal duty, to serve the supreme... in this world we serve being bounded by the karma laws, in the absolute one we serve the supreme in loving mood Ok. Love is all. Jnana also leads to love. Love for all, since I see Lord in everything. Is there in Duality philosophy the concept of sin? In Advaita, there is no concept of sin. All is from That. And He has no sin. ..yes, sin is a limited perception.. sin is simply not to be aware that we are parts and parcels of sri bhagavan united but different at the same time in an eternal loving relationship Ok. They fully believe that it is Krishna who does everything. Jiva doing anything is just an appearance. A true Advaitist will say: dear Guest, the humble service that you think you are doing is done by "I" and for "I". ..and i will answer that being variety eternal too (as you too have said... SAT is the lord... CIT and ANANDA are attributes) the service is ever "i" for "him" The I you have used is small i. It is “I” that I use. Dear guest, you have to believe me, until you experience, what “I” is. There is no me, there is “I” only. Then only, you will know all doer ship really vests with “I” and not with the small i. Advaita and Dvaita are different with different goals. So let us leave it at that. ..this is the thing i like to hear.... friends, brothers but different Ok. To serve or to get merged? But I want to merge; so that I can serve you without ahankar. ..merge means to be one... one lonely... how is it possible to serve? Not lonely. You have everything within you. How can you be lonely? Namdeva tells that only the name remains, only Keshava, Keshava remains. The devotee vanishes. Why should I not believe Namdeva, when this Jiva has also experienced the same, albeit in a smaller scale? ..do what you want, for me it is not logical and i have plenty of examples of devotees and master who teach that if one meditates on keshava he remains he and keshava remains keshava... keshava is eternal, me is eternal, we are unite in an eternal relationship Ok. I will believe what I believe. You believe what you believe. Both are equally useful, because they are God’s way only. What I say is: the source (the object) and variety are the same. ..me too, i think that the existence is eternal and various.. eternally I have spoken about it. Variety is eternal along with the one Object, but one variety is not eternal. Numerous come and go. Only Jiva appears to be deciding on the choice. This is the central teaching of Gita. I hope you will not disagree. ..i disagree that gita says that merging and not merging is the same thing ... krsa says "surrender to me" so there's one who surrenders and krsna to surrender to My English mislead you. I said: The central teaching is that Krishna, who is One without a second does everything. To understand that He does everything surrender is absolutely essential. But He has provided us with Advaita also. How can we throw that away? He gave it with a purpose. He also gave Dvaita to us with purpose. Atanu

Dear guests, If you are one -- find one answer. If you are many -- find your question and answer. All questions and answers are by Him. “I maintain that He is an author of songs that we are. ••agree.. there's an author and a song, a creator and a created, an emanator and an emanated... very true” I also agree. I am not singing myself. I also maintain that as a song I am not eternally condemned to be a song only. As a song, I will eventually merge with Him, if He wishes. You will differ here. But please do not feel that you are differing. ”Like when you dream, your dream objects are real. Similarly non-eternal body and ego are temporal. ••yes, material body and material ego are temporary.. but everything has a source in the spirit, so there's an eternal ego and an eternal body.. everything is in scriptures, there's descriptions of vaikunta, goloka..” There’s an eternal ego of the Lord. The small egos of Jiva are not eternal. There is only one eternal ego. To think that Jiva’s egos are eternal is the basic mistake of Dualism. This is the position of Advaita. ”In dream less sleep, you exist, but you do not see differentiated objects, why? ••i have not this phenomenon or i do not understand what you are saying, please explain to me..” This is very fundamental to understanding of Advaita. In sleep, when you are not dreaming, at that time the “I” exists. But there is no perception of the phenomenon ( the differentiated universe), only the object behind the phenomenon exists. Dualists believe that both the object (the source of phenomenon -- the Lord) and the phenomenon are true and eternal. Buddhists believe that only the ever changing phenomenon is the truth. The Advaita believes that it the Object that only becomes the phenomenon due to operation of sense organs. There is no objective difference between the Object (that is one and eternal) and the seemingly many phenomenon that we are. Advaita also believes that phenomenon is not eternal. It is like a rope (the object) being perceived as snake (subject) due to faulty perception (Sankara’s example). ”Oh. You have objection to this also? ••of course, i object that if you become one with the served you cannot serve” Although I will not oppose you, since nice arguments do not take us to the goal, I will just state the belief of Advaita. Which is higher Goal? To serve or to merge is really debatable. I personally feel to serve is a higher goal since to merge means to seek a selfish Moksha for oneself. But there is another view also. Some say that servers are more selfish, since merging means giving up desires altogether. To merge, a Jiva has to give up all desires, worldly or spiritual. But one thing is sure, Ramana Maharshi, who gave up all desires merged with Him. And merged in the subtle substratum, He appears to Me and many of His devotees on daily basis or whenever you require Him or whenever He feels that I require Him. Devotees of Sai will tell you the same. Are they not serving the Lord? How can you, in so definite manner, claim that merging means a desire not serve Him anymore? Why do not you understand, if I serve you I am serving Him. ”Work with your soul for Him means: Love, faith, and devotion. The pure Bhakti. Here duality exists ••pure means "no defect"... if you say that there's a merging beyond the bhakti level, bhakti is not pure, complete, free from defects” Yes, pure Bhaki means no defect. But duality persists and duality is good when mixed with pure thoughts. There is nothing to feel agitated about it. Advaita contains Dvaita within it. The problem is that Bush, a devout dualist and Bin Laden, another devout dualist do want to lose wars of ego. ”But with descent of grace by which the veil is removed one attains gyana yoga and merges with Him. ••this is again undemonstrated and illogic... because if lesser states of existence have variety, the variety has to exist also in the absolute. So there's plurality also in the most perfect state of existence. God and his associates.. united but simultaneously different. Everything well written in scriptures with plenty of details... in spirit there's infinite details.” Your logic is American materialistic logic. See how Hindu sages live – nude. They do not have variety in there lives. Spirit is the source of all variety and is actually the variety (as Advaita says that the one Objective Lord is the many splendor phenomenons). Like white light is the source of rainbow. So, should I seek the rainbow or the light, which is the source of Light? It is upto you. You may like to go the varieties but not to the source of the variety. ”Merging is not synonymous with arrogance but just the reverse. •••not surely humbleness... one wants to abandon his servant condition to became one with the served so he has no more to serve him” I have answered this above. I will repeat that I am not sure whether merging is less selfish or serving is less selfish? ”The goal is to merge and for that one has to be humble -- ••i am not of this opinion... the humble (not that i am humble.. we are discussing of philosophy) want to serve not to be one with the served” My belief and belief of all Advaitist’s is given above. ”I know that every thing manifests from Him. I know that the Lord resides in my heart cave. ••yes.. two subjects... you with your heart and god close to you also in your heart” I will repeat that, when sense organs die, there is only one I – the object, the Lord. It one I that only becomes many splendors. I do not have any ego and I beg of you to not become sarcastic. What great sages could not decide, who are we to sarcastically cut each other? We can only state the facts and our positions. At this time, we don’t have to passionately defend or sarcastically put down the other view. ”You may disagree because your ego has taken control. ••i may disagree and simply you are saying what you think, not discussing with logic and serious arguments... and you give judgements.. i do not judge because i am not frightened by the fact that you are different from me and because i have some logic to answer your objections” I disagree with you all the time without becoming a guest and I am not frightened at all. Is there a law that states that Sat-Chit-Anand cannot be nirguna? ••logic... nirguna means NIR(=NO),, GUNA(=QUALITIES) and sat, eternal is a quality.... cit, conscious is a quality... ananda, blissful is anothe quality. So nirguna is not the ultimate reality. Not that nirguna brahman does not exists... simply there's something beyond.. paramatma and bhagavan (who are sat, cit, ananda.. saguna (=full of qualities)) Yes, I was wrong. Sat is Him. Other things are His qualities. ”Actually, a desire for colourful personality is a desire and that itself will keep salvation away ••why... we have personality, so there's not to desire anything.. and the secret is to offer our full and colourful personality as a service to god. Like arjuna does in the gita, initially he wants to annihilate himself to avoid sins and to find realization, then krishna convince him to offer his full gunas (qualities) and karma (activities) to Him attaining the full perfection of life. So personality is there, let us offer to god, not throw it away... very simple.” If you are faithful, about what you have said above, then Bhaki is the highest kind of worship. But to insist, that Bhaki is the only way is dogmatic. Most advanced way is the most general way that will encompass everything. There are sages, past and present, who have brought in Muslims, Christians and others to Sanatana dharma, without using inducements or by claiming that certain Gods are demi Gods actually – they are very low in hierarchy. This is old feudalistic mentality that has by its exclusivity done harm. ”I am not prostrating to my self. I am prostrating to the Self and that includes you also ••if you prostrate, you are doing it because there's distinction from your self and the self to which you prostrate... otherwise it is useless” It is not useless at all. I can absorb any amount of difference, criticism, sarcasm, and outright condemnation. Still, if I as a Jiva (I am not a Self realized Jiva), see you performing an excellent deed, I will applaud you like no one will. Because I know that you are the “I”. If I applaud the “I”, who becomes happy? Can you do it? ”Humble Bhakti is required to see that one is not the doer ••yes, bhakti is required to see that grace comes from god, not from us... and that never will be a moment when this flow of grace will not be necessary.. and giving and receiving grace is an activity, and an activity is there when there's variety of subjects.. not merging in ONE” I will repeat. Merging is possible, only when, you have no requirement to seek grace any more. Still, you as subtle “I” can take up any embodied form -- and you can appear to devotees – not with the motive to help one devotee preferentially, since that will destroy the merging. Showing preference will pull down the Jiva from the merged state, to a server state again. ”you dualists are great Bhaktas, but you are most intolerant of other human beings who are equally pervaded by Him ••if one is intolerant towards his brothers he's a fanatic, not a great bhakta... bhakta means to feel himself a sinner while others are close to god. But a bhakta does not find logic that in the relative world we have variety of individuals and in the absolute not. We are eternal, god is eternal, the relationships with god are eternal... relationships means variety, simple” Is there in Duality philosophy the concept of sin? In Advaita, there is no concept of sin. All is from That. And He has no sin. Jiva, due to ignorance may perceive certain facts in a way and commit an error, but that does not constitute sin. The greatest glory of Advaita is that its true and really faithful adherents get liberated from cause-effect (karma). They fully believe that it is Krishna who does everything. Jiva doing anything is just an appearance. A true Advaitist will say: dear Guest, the humble service that you think you are doing is done by “I” and for “I”. ”If you don't realise this and do not become humble yourself, you will not attain His feet. ••yes, thanks, but if ones falls in the mistake that he can merge with these lotus feet how can he obtain them becoming one with the lotus feet?” Advaita and Dvaita are different with different goals. So let us leave it at that. ”I remain your soul mate since you and i are both pervaded by Him ••me too, i am your brother because we are sons of the same father... but 'til now i am the brother with little nicer argumentations, and you are the brother with less argumentations and some gratuitous judice on me...” I accept all you say. You have better arguments. That makes “I” feel good. This Jiva truly feels good at your ability. I have come to know it. ••so have a little more faith in intelligence and rationality that are given to us by sri bhagavan ”I” has infinite faith and intelligence, Boss. Definitely spirit has infinitely more features than matter. ••so there's also more variety Yes. Spirit has infinite more variety built within it. White light only becomes rainbow. Physics knows that matter has infinite energy. Physics also knows that so called vacuum that seems so drab, is actually the storehouse of unlimited energy and intelligence. So, should I pray to the source or to the manifested variety? The object (the source) has become the variety; at a single point of time also they are not different. If you are able to absorb your mind into your heart cave, you will see a golden bliss (the Turiya state). Even, in your sleep, when you do not dream, your mind is absorbed. But you exist and still do not see any variety. A Self Realised person who has gained the golden bliss (that you say is drab) is the variety. He does not have to look here and there. In fact, such people spread around variety and happiness. ”But that does not mean that one cannot merge in that spirit. ••you can merge but it is not the ultimate realization because you, taking the oneness, you miss the variety... and it is not an eternal condition, soul wants to act, to serve, to love.. in merging activities, service, love are put aside, because there's no more variety of subjects” I truly do not know what the ultimate realization is. When I know, I will come back. I will believe you till then. ”It also true that a desire for variety is a desire and detrimental. ••no.. why? and there's not to desire.. variety is there, in all the dimension.. adhibautika, adidaivika and adiatmika” I have already stated that I do not know greater goal is which? – To serve or to get merged? But I want to merge; so that I can serve you without ahankar. ”Meditation and nama japa is a break to the mind's seeking variety and attaching to temporal things to attain happiness. ••of course but meditating means to put the mind on something, so there's variety.. who the subject and the object of meditation.. and japa(silent meditation) on the nama(name of god) means that there's who meditates, who is the object of meditation and that this object fo meditation is NAMA.. and if there's nama, there's also personality (=form, activities, relationship, associates, world and so on) nothing of these things is material, temporal, bounding... everything transcendental, eternal, liberating” True meditator when puts up a question: Who is meditating? The answer comes: “I” is meditating. It is stupendous. You cannot appreciate it, till you know it for yourself. Similarly, with nama japa. Namdeva tells that only the name remains, only Keshava, Keshava remains. The devotee vanishes. Why should I not believe Namdeva, when this Jiva has also experienced the same, albeit in a smaller scale? I love Maharshi Ramana, so most often, my body disappears and Maharshi’s glowing face remains. So, I believe that total absorption is possible. Now, whether that is the ultimate goal or not that I do not know. I also need not know. But if you tell me the day you know, I will be glad. ”The very basis of Hindu religion is that: Happiness is the goal and that one will not find happiness in the non-eternal objects. ••and i agree from the start of the discussion even if you have made this little joke to say that aspiring to variety is aspiring to material things.... variety exists also in the absolute, and absolute is SAT... eternal “ It’s a good feeling that you agree at least on some point. I don’t say that aspiring to variety is aspiring for material things. What I say is: the source (the object) and variety are the same. The source is the source after all. In whatever fashion you - the Jiva wants to serve That, or merge with That, is His choice only. Only Jiva appears to be deciding on the choice. This is the central teaching of Gita. I hope you will not disagree. Your dasa Atanu

Do not not forget that you are a joyful song of the Lord. Philosophy will not make you realise that. Fights on superiority will further push you away.

Meditate. Meditate. Meditate. The goal which all the Vedas declare, which all austerities aim at, and which men desire when they lead the life of continence, I will tell you briefly: it is OM. This syllable OM is indeed Brahman. This syllable is the Highest. Whosoever knows this syllable obtains all that he desires. This is the best support; this is the highest support. Whosoever knows this support is adored in the world of Brahma. -- Katha Upanishad I, ii, 15-17 The sound OM is Brahman. The rishis and sages practiced austerity to realize that Sound-Brahman. After attaining perfection one hears the sound of this eternal Word rising spontaneously from the navel. "'What will you gain', some sages ask, 'by merely hearing this sound?' You hear the roar of the ocean from a distance. By following the roar you can reach the ocean. As long as there is the roar, there must also be the ocean. By following the trail of OM you attain Brahman, of which the Word is the symbol. That Brahman has been described by the Vedas as the ultimate goal." -- The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna (To Mahima) "You explain 'Aum' with reference to 'a', 'u', and 'm' only." Mahima: "'A', 'u', and 'm' mean creation, preservation, and destruction." Master: "But I give the illustration of the sound of a gong: 'tom', t-o-m. It is the merging of the Lila in the Nitya: the gross, the subtle, and the causal merge in the Great Cause; waking, dream, and deep sleep merge in Turiya. The striking of the gong is like the falling of a heavy weight into a big ocean. Waves begin to rise: the Relative rises from the Absolute; the causal, subtle, and gross bodies appear out of the Great Cause; from Turiya emerge the states of deep sleep, dream, and waking. These waves arising from the Great Ocean merge again in the Great Ocean. From the Absolute to the Relative, and from the Relative to the Absolute. Therefore I give the illustration of the gong's sound, 'tom'. I have clearly perceived all these things. It has been revealed to me that there exists an Ocean of Consciousness without limit. From It come all things of the relative plane, and in It they merge again." -- The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna "The sandhya merges in the Gayatri, the Gayatri in Om, and Om in samadhi. It is like the sound of a bell: t-a-m. The yogi, by following in the trail of the sound Om, gradually merges himself in the Supreme Brahman." -- The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna

Oh, Gokul, how you have matured. I am glad. Till a jiva has a separate sense of existence due to superposition of ego (body-mind) on the Self, jiva is different from Shiva. The Self is forgotten. On removal of ego (mano nasha) Jiva becomes Shiva. The partition is created by sense of separateness and seems to be like concrete. See the light once and merge in it for a second, and you will know. There is no part. The whole is one. The part is from jiva's perspective and not from Shiva's perspective. There is no partitioning of Brahman, who is eternal, unchanging and same everywhere. Then, where from the parts come? Practical Advaita Preamble A child watches ever changing forms on a glowing Neon board and is fascinated. The child knows the ever changing glow as real. When grace attends, then only the child will know that the neon board as the sub stratum is the truth. His Instructions Suppose you are of the form of a beautiful flower vase. You know yourself as a beautiful thing. You have pride of your thin neck, wide middle, and tapering base. You also have pride that you are so useful; you are beautiful and help to uphold beautiful flowers. But you have fear and anxiety about your fragility and about your temporary existence. You can’t do anything to enhance your longevity; your longevity is outside your power. You are jealous of more beautiful but more fragile flower vases. You are also jealous of less beautiful but sturdier flower vases. Now suppose you know that you are the clay; the substratum that makes the pot. Now you are immortal. Your knowledge that you are a temporary form and name is your egoity. Remove the illusion of the egoity, identify yourself with the substratum and be immortal. Suppose you are a shining leaf in a big Banyan tree. You have forgotten that you exist for the tree. You have forgotten that you are the tree. You have forgotten that the tree flourishes aided by your unselfish efficient work but you as a single leaf is not indispensable. You and infinite others will come and go. You have forgotten that the tree will exist for a very long time and you fear that you will fall and die the coming winter. Realize that you are the tree; the substratum -- and you are immortal. Suppose you work for an efficient organization under a super efficient boss. You have pride that you are doing profoundly important tasks. You also have become vain. You feel that you are indispensable. You have pride that you have fame. But you also enjoy comforts and you are fearful of losing those comforts. You are anxious about changes. According to the master plan of your organization and your super efficient boss, you are asked to relocate to Nigeria. You fear mosquitoes will finish you off in Nigeria. You lament the loss of comfort, telephones, cars, and what not. But your boss knows better. He knows that with super abundant profits from the Nigeria operation, the company will flourish and you will also. Suppose you hinder the relocation plan. The Boss will simply get rid of you and send someone else. Now suppose the organization is our universe and your super efficient boss is the all knowing Lord, the Supreme. This understanding will solve all your negative mind problems. Identify with the Boss. Become one with him. Work with your soul for him. Do not work for your small, fragile, and illusory egoity (This one is for very dear Gokul). The Method How to identify and become one with the substratum, with the Boss -- so that you may be immortal? You will, through meditation, by enquiring into your real nature. Imagine you are a fruit. With the illusory sense of egoity that you have, you are pained that you will rot in no time. If you enquire, you will find that you have a more durable seed inside you. But that does not give you complete peace since you will worry whether the sprouts from the seed will survive? You enquire further and wonder what the power of the seed is; how it will replicate your form again? You go inside further and see that there is empty space inside the seed. The empty space is the substratum and the substratum that is empty space is Him. He is the empty space, present everywhere, present in every one, and He is one. He is indivisible, undifferentiated, unchanging and ever-present One. He has the master plan. He is in the seed and he is in you. You are Him. Realize that the examples are approximations. I can understand a report created by me but it can never understand me. Likewise I will never understand Him fully. Do not associate with matter – money and other material resources. Do not associate with physical forms – beauty and physique. Do not associate with the power of mind. Associate with the Boss. The prayer O, Lord, you have become the greatest sage and leader of the thief. You have become joy and you have become pain. You have become Rajasic and you have become Tamasic. You are the subtle and the gross. You are the smallest and the infinite. You are the Sun and the moon and you are air, water and fire. You are the plants. You are Sat-Chit-Anand and you are the reactive anger and the subsequent sorrow. You are the fragrance, the nourishment, and the knowledge – Vidya and Avidya both. You are the eternal substratum that is one without a second. But you are the eternal Sat-Chit-Anand that is ever auspicious, the substratum that is real, everything else is transitory. You only open the gates to the Vidya. Thus I prostrate to Sat-Chit-Anand that is auspicious and alone remains on dissolution of forms and name. I prostrate to you who is Guru Ramana. I prostrate to you who is Ganapati who guards the gates to the Vidya (and gates to Hindu Online also). I prostrate to you who is all pervading pure sattvik Vishnu. I prostrate you who is ever compassionate Annapurna. I prostrate to you who is eternal auspicious Shiva. Let your grace never depart from me and my friends. Pray, let what you have expressed remain eternal fragrance Atanu

Hey, Keep it high on the list please, even if with anonymous barbs and jibes. Atanu

Dear Frodo, You say, "The essence of Vaishnavism is to undestand with the heart the eternal oneness in love of Vishnu-deva (Krishna) and Lakshmi-devi (Radharani), God-Father and God-Mother, with all their eternal beautiful children." But from your thread heading and what you have written so far, the above statement of yours gets no support. On the contrary it is a burning example of I, ME, and Mine. Albiet, I, Me, and My God. Your views are not views of Vaishnavism. I mean no offence here. If you percieve offence here, it will be due to your preference. Only universal love is good and that is the essence of Vaishnavism. Atanu

Om, Vinayaka Nama Om An Experience While meditating, I often lose sense of physical body and mind and see with inner eye a golden hue spread all around. On Shivaratri night, while being in that state, I tried to locate I by silently feeling “I, I, ---I” (as per instruction of Bhagwan Maharshi). Under normal circumstances, this I emanates from within the physical limits of the body only. But on the Shivaratri night, the “I” emanated not from within but from anywhere of the golden hue. I felt “I” within me and also at several locations away from the body – at will. Yogis probably locate different bodies this way to permeate happiness. It was a peculiar experience. I knew that this was the real and only “I”; present everywhere eternally. I experienced that the so called me that I used to think to be a property of my body is actually a property of the Golden hue. Face to face with Karma Oh, the auspicious one, you drew me to you during an upheaval. The upheaval still continues but I know it to be auspicious now. You took me in your fold and imparted knowledge, through a series of apparent crises. You gave me a Guru and gave a mantra. Happenings thereafter revealed the cause and effect of karma of this Maya universe very transparently. You brought me face to face with my karma and its consequences very rapidly. Often, this coming face to face with karma, is so painful, that you seem inauspicious. You told me that till embedded in this Maya, one has no liberation from the effects of Karma. Till one has a residual desire – however small it may be, there is no liberation. Till one has a sankalpa – however small it may be, there is no liberation. Similarly, you revealed that auspicious events are perceived as crises due to Jiva’s attachment to body, mind, and ego. When one merges the ego with something greater like one’s family, a group, a religious sect, a country, or the world, the auspiciousness continually increases. During this period you took me through a series of meditation experiences and literature and people that glorify you. Apparently I was at peace and blissful. However, to show me that the bliss was still not unyoked from the ego sense and its gratification, you brought me to the web site Hindu Online. You as Shiva were no more the absolute at the Hindu Online web site. Apparently, another god known by the name of Mahavishnu was. I lost my bliss temporarily. My ego was pained that probably my beloved Shiva was not all powerful. Then you gave me a glimpse of the “I” experience. You told me that all the differences of forms and names exist for the externalized mind -- the mind that attaches to the objects of various sensory organs. To the mind which has become one with the auspiciousness, only the “I” exists. The “I” is the auspicious one. It is That and it is Shiva, Vishnu, Raghuraman, Gokul, Barney and me. The pain resulted because my sense of small I attached to your manifested form and name and not to the all pervading auspiciousness that is the essence of the eternal “I” and essence of Shiva. The “I” experience has revealed, to this transitory Jiva called Atanu by others, that a Jiva will not be the auspicious one – the eternal “I”, till it associates the sense of I with its ego or to any other transitory phenomenon such as a group, or a sect. Attachment to a sect is attachment to a transitory manifestation and not to the eternal Lord. It has also been revealed that all manifested objects, including my body-mind, are songs -- joyful expressions, of the eternal “I”. Oh, the auspicious one, pray: remain auspicious by making the “I” experience eternal. Pray help my friends to imbibe the knowledge as per their needs and their development. Song of the Lord The Lord is like an ocean. Each wave tends to forget the ocean. But every single wave is the ocean. Each wave is actually a song of the ocean, its expression of joy. We are such songs of joy of God. All appearances are such songs of God. See a river flowing to the cadence of Om Nama Sivayya – Sivayya Nama Om, and the truth may flash. The materialistic world thinks that the river precedes the primordial sound. The appearances are many but a false sense of their independent existences stems from 2 basic illusions. First, the song forgets its origin and an illusory sense of ‘I’ associates with the song -- as if the song sings itself. Second, the illusory ‘I’ imagines the manifested physical body-mind as real, independent and discrete. The body-mind thus takes up the control of ‘I’. That the perception organs are limited is forgotten and the perceptions are taken as truth. The three perceived states of water as liquid, gas, and solid are thought to be the real water but who knows the real essence behind these three states? A water molecule is empty space with a dense nucleus, which again is empty. Similarly, the essence of one God is perceived as three states: Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva. So it is with numerous other gods and with numerous other physical manifests. Our senses partition things and then imagine the partitions to be real. But, the body-mind with a sense of discrete existence and limited resources at its disposal simply cannot bear the responsibility of ‘I’. To know the truth, the veil of perceptions -- arrived at through the limited body-mind apparatus – has to be removed. Realization dawns that one is a pleasant song issuing from the lips of God and that the mind-body is embodiment of the song. One also knows that the life path of the song –the so called karmas and their fruits, was decided from the time God started humming the song. Realization requires the removal of the false sense of reality of mind-body apparatus or ego. Then only one will see that the song alone is and that the ‘I’ (mind-body) is just an attendant and not the Boss. The body-mind being mere attendant cannot hear the song but can obstruct its revelation. A song imagining itself as ‘I’ and deluded that it is a body-mind, will consider the killing of the body-mind as very severe. But obviously it is not so. Dissolving the hard limitations of body and mind -- however harsh it seems with respect to the illusory body and mind -- is freedom and limitless bliss to the real ‘I’ – the song. The songs are often represented by japa mantras. Some part of the mantra rises with in-breath and some other part falls with the out-breath. Synchronization of silent japa and breath-mind with the song that one is leads to dissolution of the illusory I-Me-Mine senses and finally only the pleasant song remains. Can God wish his song misery? Does God punish his song for its sins? There is no misery. There is no sin in a song. Misery and sin are in the illusory ego and its disharmony with the song. There is just soaring and subsiding. There is beauty in the rising wave and there is beauty in the crashing wave. Crashing is not sin or punishment. How can God punish his own song? For a song that has realized itself as a song of God, there is no karma -- bad or good, and no results thereof. The song does not sing itself. It is sung by Siva. The perceived karmas – good or bad and the perceived results thereof are not owned by the song. So called destiny is always embedded in the primordial song. There is no fate to be controlled, to be modified, or to be afraid of. I am a song pleasant to God. Everything else is illusion. Siva-Ramana, you have revealed the song that is me. Pray let only the song remain. Pray reveal to my friends the songs that they are. Pray synchronize the songs so we resonate, and a song as magnificent as you alone remains. Humbling Experiences Say, as a small officer, you do not submit to your boss due to pride. When tasks become big you fail because you do not draw from the power of the boss. You become irritated and make enemies out of friends. You make an enemy out of “I” also – like Asuras do. Asuras think about their small self only and are extremely selfish. Life is like that. The non-dual subtle “I” – is the all powerful BOSS. If you fail to submit to the BOSS, you fail yourself. But, “I” is you and is extremely benevolent and wants you to draw from its unlimited resources. So, “I” gives you opportunity, by carrying you lovingly through humbling experiences, which expose your weaknesses and gives the knowledge of the unlimited powerful “I” (that you are). “I” permeates everything, so “I” is you. “I” knows about all desires and needs. There is no cause for guilt. By not loving this internal God you antagonize yourself. When you say “Om Namah Sivaya”, know that you are prostrating to the “I”, confessing all weaknesses. Since I submitted to Shiva, many things have happened – apparently to humble the small me. Pertaining to a devotee, results of karmas are exposed with His good wish. I am happy with this knowledge. There is no doubt about it. Om Nama Sivaya

Dear Guest There are two states of truth: Avidya and Vidya -- both eternal. Manas when absorbed in the Self – Para Atman (the Self Realised state), has no other than the Self. There is no avidya; everything is known. There is no Vidya either since there is nothing to know. Avidya exists because of Vidya. It is like Joy and Sorrow being pairs. The Upanishads, Brahma Sutra of Badarayan that distills the essence of the Upanishads, and Devi Kallottara reveal this state of oneness. No action takes place. The Jiva becomes Sada Shiva or MahaVishnu or Brahman here. I repeat that when in oneness with Brahman there is no other thing except the Self which is Bliss and light, formless and without a beginning and an end. Depending on the predilection one may perceive forms. But for the Manas, which desires to go out of the Self, possibly due to boredom with unbroken golden hue of oneness and due to inherent incipient desire to taste some variation, the universe of names and forms truly exists. The fountain head of knowledge for the externalized manas is Rig Veda and all other sciences etc. In this state Gods are names and forms, with need to make allies and with conflicting interests sometimes. This is the truth of this state. In this state, even the Gods are not beyond Karma. Gita bridges the gap between these two states of Avidya and Vidya, by first introducing the knowledge of oneness and thereafter prescribing modes of conduct for the Avidya state. Devas know about the oneness and the Vidya whereas Asuras in general are those who have forgotten the oneness. In the state of the externalized mind, Gods have to face the consequences of Karma, but due to their knowledge of the fundamental oneness, they are able to mitigate and invariably turn the results favourably. This is not true of the Asuras. But Asuras also, burning through the results of Karma eventually gain Vidya. In the externalized state of manas, Shiva kills his son but then somehow gives his life back. He also cannot alter the destiny and protect Sati. Vishnu has to take birth and go through pangs of separation from his beloved. Krishna can only helplessly see Yadu race being ravaged and destroyed. Brahma cannot help but lust after his own creation and thus invite the wrath of Rudra, who in turn has to pay for the sin of tearing off a head of Brahma. These apparent animosities however do not take root with the Devas. All of them, being seeped in the Vidya of oneness, can overcome any difficulty that comes, by dissolving ego (that creates the Maya of separateness), then helping and seeking help from each other selflessly. For those who have grounding in science, what is illustrated above will become clearer with the example of uncertainty principle, which states that: At any moment either the position or momentum of a body can be known accurately and it is never possible to know both position and momentum of a body at a particular moment. Heisenberg and Bohr held to this position. But Einstein maintained that “God does not play dice and there is only one truth and that truth is knowable eventually”. Both the above positions are true and false. From the perspective of Avidya, uncertainty will reign supreme forever. But from the perspective of Vidya, the truth is eternally one. Atanu

Dear Prodo, Let stop our attempts to prove who is greater. With our small ness can we judge the unlimited beings? It is puerile. Can a piece of sand of a mountain compare size of the mountains? There is no point in trying to see as to who is greater. However, there is every reason for Bhaki to MahaVishnu. We are too small to understand his limits. He is limitless. It was illuminating to learn that Suta Goswamy, the parrot of Radharani is Shiva. It is such a beautiful knowledge. But the author of the thread claims superiority of Vishnu based on this evidence. There is nothing more puerile. We, equate strength with ability to subdue another through force or intellect. We tend to believe that the Bhaka is the subdued one and hence inferior to the deity. This happens due to overlapping of Ego on the Self – the egoless Atman. Which mother and father are not devotees of their children? Mother selflessly devotes all her energies towards the well being of the child. Does this make the child superior or the mother inferior? I have been meditating for sometime now. Adjacent to my residence, there is a Lord Balaji temple, where the priest or someone used to play devotional songs from 5 AM and 6PM through loudspeaker. This used to create minor disturbances in my meditation. But, with the teaching of Shiva: learn to dissociate from the externalities. Do not react to objects in your externalities, with time the loud noise ceased to affect me at all. However, one day I visited the temple, as if led by Lord Shiva himself, and the songs through the loudspeaker stopped altogether. Who will gauge the greatness of Lord Vishnu? Me? I am not that innocent as not to understand the greatness of the power that Lord Vishnu represents. He is compassion, and He is also auspicious. If Lord Shiva will not be Lord Vishnu’s devotee then whose devotee He can be? Similarly, you must know that Lord Vishnu also is a devotee of Lord Shiva. Let us not judge who is greater. Both are unlimited and beyond our imagination. We may however tap the goodness through any name and form. If you are a true devotee, Lord Vishnu himself may take you to Lord Shiva, if required. Gods do not have ego and that is why they are Gods. Atanu

Illuminating Atanu

Dear Guest, Very true. In the spiritual world there is only one essence and nothing else. Atanu

Dear Raghuram ji, You state “Shiva's names may also belong to Bhagavan Vishnu, but I doubt girish in svetashvatara upanishad refers solely to Vishnu because Vishnu is lying on Ananta Deva while Shiva is in Kailash” Shri Raghuramji, you have defeated yourself. Vishnu is eternal energy without requiring any support. Shiva is same. All Gods are this eternal subtle energy. The whole energy is Sada Shiva or Maha Vishnu or Brahman. In your eagerness to prove that Vishnu is supreme, you have limited MahaVishnu, by showing him requiring support of Ananta Deva. Who is Ananta Deva, may I dare to ask? One who supports another must be greater than the one who is supported. Let stop our attempts to prove who is greater. With our small ness can we judge the unlimited beings? It is puerile. Can a piece of sand of a mountain compare size of the mountains? Actually Ananta Deva is Kala – time. Shiva transcends time: namaste astu bhagavanh vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya tripurAntakAya trikAgni-kAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mrutyunjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrImanmahAdevAya namaH || 2\.0|| If you stop your endeavor to prove superiority of one over another, you will realize that MahaVishnu is residing in your heart as atman – the energy also transcends time. There is no point in trying to see as to who is greater. However, there is every reason for Bhaki to MahaVishnu. We are too small to understand his limits. He is limitless. In a different thread, I learnt that Suta Goswamy, the parrot of Radharani is Shiva. It is such a beautiful knowledge. But the author of the thread claims superiority of Vishnu based on this evidence. There is nothing more puerile. We, equate strength with ability to subdue another through force or intellect. We tend to believe that the Bhaka is the subdued one and hence inferior to the deity. This happens due to overlapping of Ego on the Self – the egoless Atman. Which mother and father are not devotees of their children? Mother selflessly devotes all her energies towards the well being of the child. Does this make the child superior or the mother inferior? I have been meditating for sometime now. Adjacent to my residence, there is a Lord Balaji temple, where the priest or someone used to play devotional songs from 5 AM and 6PM through loudspeaker. This used to create minor disturbances in my meditation. But, with the teaching of Shiva: learn to dissociate from the externalities. Do not react to objects in your externalities, with time the loud noise ceased to affect me at all. However, one day I visited the temple, as if led by Lord Shiva himself, and the songs through the loudspeaker stopped altogether. Who will gauge the greatness of Lord Vishnu? Me? I am not that innocent as not to understand the greatness of the power that Lord Vishnu represents. He is compassion, and He is also auspicious. If Lord Shiva will not be Lord Vishnu’s devotee then whose devotee He can be? Similarly, you must know that Lord Vishnu also is a devotee of Lord Shiva. Let us not judge who is greater. Both are unlimited and beyond our imagination. We may however tap the goodness through any name and form. If you are a true devotee, Lord Vishnu himself may take you to Lord Shiva, if required. Gods do not have ego and that is why they are Gods. Atanu