atanu

Guest said: "Rig veda is not important in age of Kali...Vyasa compiled Puranas for Shudras...in this age all are Shudras...” All are born Shudras but with grades of Karma, Bhakti, and Jnana, Jivas attain different levels. So, Rig Veda cannot become unimportant in a blanket fashion. Where is it written that Vyasa compiled Puranas for Shudras? If, it is true, then all bhaktas who abide by Bhagavatam are Shudras and they have no hope of progress. If for a moment we accept that Puranas are for Shudras (as you have stated above). Then, do you actually accept that the Vedas are for Brahmanas and Bhagavatam is for Shudras? Then again Guest says “ we would not like to dump rig veda... we must follow what is meant for our consciousness... we are shudra, therefore we must follow what Vyasa Bhagwan meant for us to follow...Puranas...” Prabhuji, Where is this commandment from? “we are shudra, therefore we must follow what Vyasa Bhagwan meant for us to follow...Puranas”

You have stated the following: “Krishna also says 'i am supreme person' Brahma says 'Govinda is original person full of truth, bliss and knowledge' I EMPHASISE PERSON, not brahman...” Yes. I also emphasise PERSON. I also say that Govinda is Purusha of Rig Veda. But read Gita and know that Purusha (Adhyatama) is a manifestation of the highest imperishable Brahman. And sacrifice of Adhyatama brings forth the beings. In Chapter VII of Gita: The way to the Supreme Spirit, Lord says: The blessed Lord said: Sloka 3. The highest imperishable principle is Brahman. Its existence as embodied soul is called Adhyatma and the offerings (into sacrificial fire) which causes the development of beings is Adhyagna. Later the Lord says: I am that as Adhyajna in this body. So, your repeated claim that Param Brahman is effulgence of Krishna is dangerous, false, misleading and a figment of your imagination. Or may be you are confused between Lord Brahma, the creator and Para-Brahman – the un-manifest, un-decaying, un-changing origin of all – The Sarva. You must stop this claim of yours or give Shruti evidence.

Yes, Maya is eternal. But Maya does not veil equally and the veil is not eternal. Self Realization comes from the unveiling. By discriminating temporary from eternal and the real from unreal.

Vrikshasyamula Sekena Shakhahpusyanti Vaiyatha Shive Rudre Japatpreteprita Yevasya Devatah

"...there are three modes according to the Vedas, some of the Vedas are for ignorance - according to Vedas, not according to Prabhupada - some for passion, some for goodness...the conclusion should come from the most consistent message of the scriptures in the mode of goodness" You alone know the good mode of the Vedas.

I am at rest every moment. You may not understand now. But you under disguise are polluting Sanatana Dharma. Vedas are the fountain head, given to us by the Lord Himself. What is your motive in ignoring the Vedas?

This is fun

Excellent

Raghuramji and othewrs listen to what Guest HK devotee has to say: "Rig veda is not important in age of Kali...HARIBOL!!!" Your HK friend would now like to dump Rig Veda. This is atrocious. Atanu

Study these Maha vakyas from Vedas. Ekam evadvitiyam brahman: Brahman is one, without a second Prajnanam Brahman: Brahman is the supreme knowledge Tat tvam asi: That is what you are Ayam atma brahman: Atman and Brahman are the same Aham brahmasmi: I am Brahman Sarvam khalvidam brahman: All of this is Brahman Can we ignore these? Now read from Chapter 13 of Gita Chapter 13: Creation and the Creator --------------- The sages have described Him in many ways, in various Vedic hymns, and also in the conclusive and convincing verses of the Brahmasutra. (13.04) ------------------- I shall fully describe the object of knowledge, knowing which one attains immortality. The beginningless Supreme Brahman is said to be neither Sat nor Asat. (13.12) Having hands and feet everywhere; having eyes, head, and face everywhere; having ears everywhere; the creator exists in the creation by pervading everything. (13.13) My note: He pervades you and me. He is the perceiver of all sense objects without the senses; unattached, yet the sustainer of all; devoid of the Gunas, yet the enjoyer of the Gunas. (13.14) Undivided, yet appears as if divided in beings; He, the object of knowledge, is the creator, sustainer, and destroyer of (all) beings. (13.16) My note: Please read again and again, Undivided, yet appears as if divided in beings; The light of all lights, He is said to be beyond darkness. He is the knowledge, the object of knowledge, and seated in the hearts of all beings, He is to be realized by the knowledge. (13.17) My note: seated in the hearts of all beings, He is to be realized by the knowledge. ------------ Know that Prakriti and Purusha are both beginningless; and also know that all manifestations and Gunas arise from the Prakriti. (13.19) The Prakriti is said to be the cause of production of physical body and organs (of perception and action). The Purusha (or the consciousness) is said to be the cause of experiencing pleasures and pains. (13.20) The Purusha associating with Prakriti (or matter), enjoys the Gunas of Prakriti. Attachment to the Gunas (due to ignorance caused by previous Karma) is the cause of the birth of Jeevaatma in good and evil wombs. (13.21) The Supreme Spirit in the body is also called the witness, the guide, the supporter, the enjoyer, and the great Lord or Paramaatma. (13.22) My note: the supreme spirit in the body is called the great Lord or Paramatma -------------- Some perceive God in the heart by the intellect through meditation; others by the yoga of knowledge; and others by the yoga of work (or Karma-yoga). (13.24) Some, however, do not understand Brahman, but having heard (of it) from others, take to worship. They also transcend death by their firm faith to what they have heard. (13.25) -------------- The one who sees the imperishable Supreme Lord dwelling equally within all perishable beings truly sees. (13.27) My note: True seer is one who sees the Lord equally within all perishable beings ------------- Those who perceive that all works are done by the (Gunas of) Prakriti alone, and thus they are not the doer, they truly understand. (See also 3.27, 5.09, and 14.19) (13.29) My note: Your understanding that you are serving the great Lord is faulty. As it the Prakriti who is the lone doer. And as Prakriti and Purusha are both in the Un-manifest Lord, it is Lord alone who does everything. Your ego says : “I am the greatest servant” When one perceives diverse variety of beings resting in One and spreading out from That alone, then one attains Brahman. (13.30) My note: Only intense Bhakti or Jnana will make one realize the oneness of the diverse variety. Please read it again. When one perceives diverse variety of beings resting in One and spreading out from That alone, then one attains Brahman. (13.30) The imperishable Supreme Self, being beginningless and without Gunas, though dwelling in the body (as Atma) neither does anything nor gets tainted, O Arjuna. (13.31) As the all-pervading ether is not tainted because of its subtlety, similarly the Self, seated in everybody, is not tainted. (13.32) My note: This answers your query on Purnamidam.... ----------- They, who understand the difference between the creation (or the body) and the creator (or the Atma) and know the technique of liberation (of Jeeva) from the trap of Maya with the help of knowledge, attain the Supreme. (13.34) Now read from Gita Chapter 15 Chapter 15: Supreme Spirit The Supreme Lord said: They (or the wise) speak of the eternal Ashvattha tree having its origin above (in unmanifest Brahman) and its branches below (in the cosmos) whose leaves are the (Vedic) hymns. One who understands this is a knower of the Vedas. (15.01) The branches (of this world tree of Maya) spread below and above (or all over the cosmos). The tree is nourished by the Gunas; sense pleasures are its sprouts; and its roots (of ego and desires) stretch below in the human world causing Karmic bondage. (15.02) My note: Ego (the sense of individuality) and desires cause karmic bondage Neither its (real) form nor its beginning, neither its end nor its existence is perceptible here on the earth. Having cut these firm roots of the Ashvattha tree by the mighty ax of (Jnana and) Vairaagya or detachment; (15.03) My note: the mighty axe of Jnana The goal (of nirvana) should be sought reaching which one does not come back; thus thinking: In that very primal spirit I take refuge from which this primal manifestation comes forth. (15.04) My note: Take refuge in the Primal spirit, which is un-manifest and beginning less but from which this primal manifestation comes forth. Those who are free from pride and delusion, who have conquered the evil of attachment, who are constantly dwelling in the Supreme Self with all Kaama completely stilled, who are free from the dualities known as pleasure and pain; such undeluded persons reach the eternal goal. (15.05) ----------- Atma in the body is My eternal indivisible fragment indeed. Atma gets bound (or attached, and is called Jeevaatma) due to superimposition or association with the six sensory faculties, including the mind, of perception. (15.07) My note: Atma in the body is My eternal indivisible fragment indeed. Atma gets bound (or attached, and is called Jeevaatma) due to superimposition or association with the six sensory faculties, including the mind, of perception. Finally I will use your evidence: You have said: “You must know the Sruti "Purnamidam....". This says that Brahman is perfect, part of Brahman is also perfect” So, you yourself say that part of Brahman is perfect. You already have Jnana. That you still believe that you are an individuality is that you rely on your sense organs too much. You believe what your sense organs tell you. And simply asserting that individual soul is evident will not do. Just answer: Have you or anyone seen the individual self (with eyes or without eyes)? Answer Yes or No. Still your mind. Detach from attachments. Give up sense of doership. Do vichara "Who am I?" Atanu

Have you seen yourself? That is the individual soul? Do not ask me, since i have already said that I am a small Jiva and has not seen either God or my soul.

"TRANSLATION Unintelligent men, who know Me not, think that I have assumed this form and personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is changeless and supreme. " You say: ...the highest state is "changeless (in that sense)" personality” This is your interpolation and your extrapolation. Whether changeless and personality are synonymous? Which dictionary? Rather the “changeless supreme” is the repository of all possible personalities. You say: “...so the variety is real.... there's god, there's me the idiot and you the scientist.... one, two, three!!” You also say in reply to Shri Ganesh Prasad Ji: “.... Advaita realization, oneness in brahman is possible... but we follow after some time... and maya takes control of us” Now we are back to the square one; the hallmark of achyntya philosophy. On the one hand, Advaita realization, oneness in Brahman is possible --- but as Maya has taken control of us so we say: “there's God, there's me the idiot and you the scientist.... one, two, three!!” Knowing fully well that “one, two, three!!”, is on account of Maya. Now you will say Maya is eternal. For you, yes. You will ever remain in the snares. By the way it is Maya that makes you think: “there's me the idiot”. Actually you are the coolest and the greatest sophist. You have also stated that some one has claimed that God is Maya. Can you refer to the exact thread and the exact sentence. Regards, Atanu

Thousand prostrations to you my Guru. Dear friends, I am posting a small – ok not so small write up on Advaita. This is how my understanding has evolved. I also understand that the truth is beyond the intellect. So, most arguments are of no avail. Like I said earlier: A report written by me will not understand me but I will understand the report. Although I will appreciate critical comments and queries, I will try to ignore guest comments (I am scared of the anonymous barbs and missiles that this site encourages and fosters). I pray that let this not create any new controversies but may it be helpful. Advaita The Rational Debate What is truth? A truth must encompass understanding of the Avidya – what we call science, within it. That the objective truth, independent of the observer’s limited faculties and still more limited machines, will never be known is already known to science. An observer when measuring introduces uncertainty in the objective truth. This is known as uncertainty principle in science. Even when mind attempts to grasp truth it uses some energy which interferes with the objective truth. So, we in India know from times immemorial that all knowledge exists in Brahman, that knowledge needs no rational derivation and that intuitive flash, as during meditation when mind is non-existent, reveals the knowledge. But since expression is again through limited faculties, the objective truth can never be expressed and understood; but, it can be realized. Moreover, the faculties are given by the Lord, so that the truth as understood through realization is disseminated as accurately as possible; thus this effort. All that is eternal in the following are from Siva-Ramana. All that is non-eternal emanates from the effort of Jiva. Einstein and others have shown that matter is huge storehouse of energy. Uncontrollable amounts of energy would be released if matter were to be fully converted to energy; matter and energy are the same. Modern physicists also know that a set of proton-antiproton-pion particles can evolve out of void and again resolve into the void. Such creation, apparently out of nothing, goes on all the time. Physicists now know that what we call void is repository of all forms and unlimited energy. But physicists only have a hint but no definite knowledge that the void is also conscious and intelligent. God is this non-dual void equipped with infinite consciousness. No one will ever know the equations that govern the super intelligent void. A report written by me will not know me but I will know the report. The concept of trinity: Brahma as creator, Vishnu as sustainer, and Rudra-Shiva as destroyer, is a concept of forms, like we perceive the essence of water as liquid, gas or ice under different conditions. Which of these is greater and which comes first are wrong questions. The truth is that He is one. He is all pervasive Vishnu and He is auspicious Shiva. Shiva is Vishnu and Vishnu is Shiva; not like milk and curd, but like a single moment of time, which appears as night time to some part of the world and which appears as day time to the other part of the world. Introduction to Advaita Spiritualists differ from atheists in their belief of a living spirit that gave rise to everything. Atheists, on the other hand, believe that the matter itself diversified and gained intelligence. Advaitists (non dualists – followers of Shankaracharya) believe presence of only one spirit permeating everything whereas dvaitists (dualists – followers of Madhavacharya) believe God to be separate from his creation. The highest truth of Advaitism is that everyone is potential God, but due to the limited power of mind – an instrument of the God that is within, this truth is veiled from most people. The original debate was between the ancient dualist Vedantists and the ancient Buddhists, the former believing in the individual soul (jiva) as true, the latter denying the existence of such an individual soul. According to ancient Buddhists, the soul consists of a bundle of qualities called sensations and feelings. A mass of such is what is called the soul, and this mass is continually changing. Since the assumption of a eternal non changing substance (soul) which is behind the qualities, and which is not the qualities, can never be substantiated – not from the argument of self-identity and not from memory that I am the I of yesterday because I remember it, and therefore I have been a continuous something -- the argument of the ancient Buddhists seems to be stronger that we do not know, and cannot know, anything that is beyond the bunch of qualities that one knows to be as I. The Advaitist theory of the soul reconciles these. The basic principle of Vijnana-vada (Buddhism) is that all you see outside is the creation of the mind. Vijnana is the consciousness in the mind or consciousness itself as the mind, which projects itself as an outside world of perception. The world actually does not exist. However, Sankara says the objective world exists. Supposing it is accepted that mind is creating things by perception (Avidya), then you have to agree that the trees in the forest are created by your mind. If the mind is wholly inside and if there is nothing objective outside but only the consciousness appears to be outside (according to Buddhist doctrine), then how did the idea of 'outside ness' arise in the mind? Then, even if you agree that there is some appearance outside, and really things do not exist, the appearance has to be outside. This outside ness must be accepted first. There cannot be an appearance of something outside unless there is really something outside. A rope appears as a snake but even for that appearance, the rope must exist. If rope also does not exist, then the snake will not be there. The position of the Advaitist is that it is true that we cannot think of the substance as separate from the qualities, we cannot think of change and not-change at the same time; it would be impossible. But the very thing which is the substance is the quality; substance and quality are not two things. It is the unchangeable that is appearing as the changeable. The a-priori cause is not something different from the post priori effect – the phenomena, but it is the very cause which has become the effect. There is a soul which is unchanging, and what we call feelings and perceptions and even the body, are the very soul, seen from another point of view. We have got into the habit of thinking that we have bodies and souls and so forth, but really speaking, there is only one. The perception is either of the body or of the soul. Try to think of yourself as a soul, as a disembodied something. You will find it to be almost impossible, and only a few who are able to do so will find that at the time when they realize themselves as a soul they have no idea of the body. So what is soul-jiva appears as body and what is one Brahman appears as many. From the dualistic standpoint this universe is a creation of matter or force emanating from the play of a certain will, which is separate and higher from the manifested universe. Thus a man from such a standpoint has to see himself as composed of a dual nature, body and soul. According to this theory, we have a body and behind the body there is a fine body. This fine body is made of very fine matter, which is the receptacle of all our Karma, of all our actions and impressions, which are ready to spring up into visible forms. Behind the subtle body, lives Jiva or the individual soul of man. This Jiva is a part of that universal substance, and it is also eternal; without beginning it exists, and without end it will exist. It is passing through all these forms in order to manifest its real nature which is purity. Jiva has no end and no way to merge with the supreme soul that is God. Jiva or soul is a concentrated point of desire; it is rather the bound soul and no one can be bound unless there is a desire at a spatio-temporal point. The human being is a shape taken by a mass of desires. What is desire? Upanishads hold that it looked like a spark of fire. As from a huge conflagration several sparks may jet forth in all directions, so from this great conflagration of 'Brahma Fire', many little sparks shot out which were the individuals. The 'shot-off' sparks asserted individuality of their own, like appointed officials assuming independence. Since, fulfillment of desire is possible only through an object, the sparks will for themselves a material embodiment, for which purpose it draws particles of matter, -- earth, water, fire, air and ether into itself. This physical embodiment assumed is called the body. These physical embodiments are the conglomerated parts and formation of the five elements. This centre is also called the ego. Its purpose is to pull everything into itself and reject everything else, which are the dual functions of desire -- ego. Having taken birth for the purpose of fulfillment of desires, the desiring centre forgets that the body cannot last long and death of the body is inevitability. However, with unfulfilled desires remaining with the Jiva, it has to re-incarnate in another body. But here two questions arise: is the individual spark not a part of the God himself and whether the spark has a beginning and an end. When the spark eventually ends where does it go? Most dualists conceive of the goal as the highest heaven, where souls will live with God for ever. But Jiva will never be the God. They will have beautiful bodies and will know neither disease nor death, nor any other evil, and all their desires will be fulfilled. From time to time some of them will come back to this earth and take another body to teach human beings the way to God. The personal God of dualist is a glorified man. Advaita holds that this cannot be the goal or the ideal; bodiless ness must be the ideal. The ideal cannot be finite and there cannot be an infinite body. That would be impossible, as body comes from limitation. There cannot be infinite thought, because thought comes from limitation. We have to go beyond the body and beyond thought too to overcome the limitations and attain eternal freedom. According to Advaita, this freedom is not to be attained, it is already ours. We only forget it and deny it. Immortality and bliss are not to be acquired, we possess them already; they have been ours all the time. Advaitist believes "I am the birth less, the deathless, the blissful, the omniscient, the omnipotent, ever-glorious Soul.” The theme is to see the Lord in everything, to see things in their real nature, and not as they appear to be. Advaita recognizes neither good nor bad, but knowing all as coming from the Self. It means seeing the Lord in hell as well as in heaven; seeing the Lord in death as well as in life; the earth is a symbol of the Lord, the sky is the Lord, the place we fill is the Lord, and everything is Brahman. And this is to be seen and realized; not simply talked or thought about. The Impersonal God of Advaita is a living God, a principle. The impersonal idea includes all personalities, is the sum total of everything in the universe, and infinitely more besides. Rationality Test There are two principles of testing the validity of knowledge. The one principle is that the knowledge should validate all particular experiences; and the second is that anything of which the explanation is sought is to be explained so far as possible from its own nature. Personal God of the dualist is the sum total of all consciousness but is different from the manifested effect. The manifested Jiva is condemned eternally to live a separate life. But a difficulty arises -- it is an incomplete generalization. We take up only one side of the facts of nature, the fact of consciousness, and upon that we generalize, but the other side is left out. Is the spark that is Jiva is not part of the God himself? So, in the first place it is a defective generalization. The second insufficiency relates to the second principle: everything should be explained from its own nature. If the God is outside of nature, having nothing to do with nature, and this nature is the outcome of the command of that God and produced from nothing, it indicates that the effect is not the cause, that the cause is entirely separate from the effect. Every experience shows that any effect is but the cause in another form. The Advaita says the cause of all that is apparently evil is in the unlimited Lord. It also says that the cause of all this apparent evil is in us. What is the cause of evolution if not desire? And who desires? The animal wants to do something, but does not find the environment favorable and therefore develops a new body. Who develops it? The will is almighty but it is the primordial will. In summary, Advaita holds that only one exists. It is not true that there are two -- something changing, and, in and through that, something which does not change; but it is the one and the same thing which appears as changing, and which is in reality unchangeable. We have come to think of the body, and mind, and soul as many, but really there is only one; and that one is appearing in all these various forms. Advaita by the application of the second principle of arriving at the truth: that the explanation of everything must come out of the nature of the thing, leads to a bold idea; that the Impersonal Being is in ourselves, and we are That. "O Shvetaketu, thou art That." You are that Impersonal Being; that God for whom you have been searching all over the universe is all the time yourself -- yourself not in the personal sense but in the Impersonal sense. The Debate The highest ideal of the Vedanta is very difficult to understand, and people are always quarrelling about it, and the greatest difficulty is that when they get hold of certain ideas, they deny and fight other ideas. But why Monism, as propounded by Sankara and as experienced by numerous Self realized sages and men, is opposed by the majority in India? The truth is one but the paths to the truth are many. The truth is independent of our perception organs that actually have the potential to hide and distort the truth. The greatest truths are documented in the Upanishads by masters who were deeply involved in understanding the ultimate principles of the cosmos. But there are provisions for establishing the monism aspect of philosophy and also the dualistic aspect. To clarify and to reconcile these statements in a harmonious manner, and to point out that different expressions do not mean contradictory presentations, Brahma Sutras was written by Bhagavan Sri Krishna Dvaipayana Vyasa. Sutra is a thread that connects different parts of the vision of Truth. The Brahma Sutra makes an initial statement: Brahman is to be known. Commentators have written many pages to explain the meaning of one Sutra only, "Athato Brahma Jijnasa". Sankaracharya, Ramanujacharya, Madhvacharya, Vallabacharya, Nimbarkacharya, all wrote great commentaries on the Brahma Sutras. The Sutra refutes the Buddhistic doctrine of the Vijnanavada or Yogachara which teaches that the external would is a mental creation – an absolute Maya. The question is why the world appears to be external to the thinking mind. What is it that projects the world as an outside element independent of the mind? When the Sutra refutes the doctrine of the mind itself being the world, it corroborates the well-known feeling of everyone that the world is outside the mind. Does then the Sutra say that the world is real in itself? Sutras lead us to understand that there in an objective reality called the world but no human mind can conceive or produce such a world. Here comes in the great distinction made between Ishvara Srishti (creation by God) and Jiva Srishti (creation by the individual). The world is a projection of God's Mind, and not a creation of the individual mind. World creation is Ishvara Srishti and interpretative experience of the world is Jiva Srishti or individualised viewpoint. But the differences of dualism and non-dualism are apparently accentuated by the Brahma Sutra. The basic difference between the non-dualists and dualists is that the latter holds that individual Jiva is different from the supreme God who is a personality and Jivas will ever be inferior and different from the Supreme one. Dualists who adore God with love will attain the Kingdom of God but will not become God. The former hold that the Jiva is That only but it may not know the truth due to ignorance or Avidya. That the attainment of Brahman is the final goal of everyone is agreed by everyone. All debate on the meaning of Brahma Sutras, which all schools hold as valid and inviolable hinge on interpretation of few fundamental statements: • Brahman is that from which proceed the creation, preservation and destruction of the universe • The knower of Brahman will not return to mortal existence • The liberated soul is free only in so far as it can enjoy the bliss of perfection equally as Brahman, but it cannot have the power of creation, preservation, and destruction etc. of the universe. The Brahma Sutra does not clarify whether Liberation - Moksha is the attainment of a personal God or it is something else. Ramanuja and the Vaishnava Acharyas say 'Yes, It is like that only; because you cannot become God.’ But Acharya Sankara cannot accommodate himself to it -- if you cannot become God, you will be finite again; if you are finite, then you have to return, having not attained Moksha and that will contradict Sutra: The knower of Brahman will not return to mortal existence. These problems have made Acharya Madhva to state that there is no connection between the individual and God. Madhva's philosophy is that the individual soul, Jiva, is a servant of God, dependent entirely. All agree that when a jiva becomes one with Brahman it gets moksha or liberation. But three Acharyas -- Sankara, Ramanuja and Madhva -- have their own definitions of liberation. Ramanuja views it as similar to mixing of water with milk. The two join together and become apparent one substance, yet water is not milk; the soul does not get identified with God. Madhva's view of liberation is like loss of individuality, like mixing grains of rice and grains of sesame. If sesame seeds and rice seeds are mixed together, each seed may think that it has lost its individual existence by communicating itself with other seeds. But in the case of Sankara, Moksha is like water mixing with water -- It is total oneness. It is intuitive here that soul being subtle, example of Til and Rice is the one most inappropriate. Attaining Brahman, according to Ramanuja, the soul does not merge in God. It enjoys the Glory of God. Our body is made up of so many cells; can you say the cells themselves are you? And Ramanuja concludes that the entire world, all individuals are like cells or adjectives in the body of God. So is the case with the individuals attaining God; they are inseparable from Narayana, Vishnu, God Almighty, but they are not themselves Narayana. Ramanuja's doctrine is that the relation between God and the world is like individual soul-body relation. Acharya Sankara states that relation is a wrong concept altogether. Relation means accepting the existence of two different things. If there are two different things, they cannot become one; if the two cannot become one, duality will persist; if duality persists, there will be no attaining Brahman, which Brahma Sutra grants. All difficulties arise from interpretation of the definition of God, Brahman, given in the Brahma Sutra, at the very beginning. Who is God? It does not say that God is the Supreme Absolute, indistinguishable, indivisible Eternal Being. The definition given is peculiar: Brahman is that from which proceed the creation, preservation and destruction of the universe. Due to apparent contradiction of the three statements duality philosophy is prevalent and which is the cause of much misery and strife in our environment. What my Guru has told me As the Supreme cannot be defined absolutely without also deviating from the truth so the definition of the God in Brahma Sutra is a tentative definition that points to the truth, but is not an absolute essential definition. The definition of God: Brahman is that from which proceed the creation, preservation and destruction of the universe, does not mean that His primary function is to create-sustain-destroy. Actually creation-sustenance-destruction takes place due to presence of an inherent tendency in the undifferentiated Brahman to enjoy the taste of differentiation that leads to creation and sustenance which create illusion of duality. But with the destruction oneness again returns. This is a continuous cyclic process due to inherent opposing tendency in Brahman to taste differentiation and to remain one. When he ceases from creation, what is His nature? The jiva will not return if it attains identity with the real Absolute Being, Brahman. But it cannot remain as Brahman if it desires to create or sustain because that will start a process of differentiation again. So called creation-sustenance-destruction creates the ripples such as waves on the surface of an ocean and these ripples by forgetfulness lose touch with Brahman. Waves forget that they are the ocean. Acharya Sankara surmised that the tentative definition of God as described in the Brahma Sutra is a Saguna God with attributes but not what God is actually, independent of the activity of creation, preservation, and destruction. Acharya Shankara is also valid when he states that 'Anavrittih Shabdat' -- 'you will not return' -- means conditional liberation, but not absolute liberation. Any desire, however small will create bondage and the very need to create is a desire. The Sutra, 'Jagat Vyaparavarjyam' -- the liberated soul in Brahma-Loka will have all the freedom except the power of creating the world; is not contradictory to Advaita at all, since true liberation means freedom from all desires. A desire to create will nullify Liberation. In a different way, creation would mean creating an apparent second beside you and that will limit your freedom and create bondage again. Thus to be liberated a jiva cannot create. Brahma Sutra glorifies the Advaita as the absolute necessity for absolute freedom and not the other way. Absolute freedom is possible only in a Timeless Existence. It also means that no one can know what Liberation is, if ego of separateness persists. Advaita, upholding eternal one-ness as the truth, it does not deny duality on temporal basis. It however, only says that the multiplicities are temporal and hence are not the essence. And that moksha-liberation means complete freedom from desires. Atanu

As per shruti, Savitar is Bhaga, whereas Vishnu is Aditya.

Can you please let me know the source

Raghuramanji, Regards but you are defeated. You and your supporters have said the followings “I believe that would be his eternal amshas gita 15.7 All things exist within Brahman. This is the stand of Dvaita.” Then you have also said (quoted shruti) as below: “You must know the Sruti "Purnamidam....". This says that Brahman is perfect, part of Brahman is also perfect. “ So, you as eternal amsha of Brahman are perfect. I as eternal amsha of Brahman is perfect. That is what Advaita says. Regards, Atanu

Ranjan ji, Your thread is good. On one side it highlights tolerance and true spiritualism and on another anonymous viciousness. May be many people do not know that most times a simple mention of Lord Krishna's name was enough to transport Ramakrishna to bliss. Katahamrita -- a biography of Ramakrishna shows that how often He provided examples of Lord Chaitanya. Stories of Srimati and Krishna and reading of Bhagavatam constituted imortant part of His schedule. It is sad and shame to see 2 great sages called as cheaters. we are really degraded. Atanu

It's easy to abuse as anonymous beings. Why don't use your names

Dear Antarjnani You have not provided any feed back to the following questions, posted a few days earlier. You can ask a few questions. You exist. But you are what? Are you the body and mind (so called brain of modern science)? If you are the body and the brain and these 2 are doing all things for you, then why the body and brain (which remain after death) cannot desire more life for themselves. What happens at the time of death? Though your body and brain exists, but you lose conciousness. What is this conciousness? Ask yourself and ponder. Without this conciousness, what is mind? And you claim that God is a product of mind. Well, you are correct (though in a wrong way) at least partially. Great sages: Buddha, RamaKrishna and Ramana bhagwan tell that for Self-Realised persons (who continously abide in GOD or Self), the pure mind (mind without a trace of sankalpa) is nothing but God. Atanu

Dear Shri Bhandari, The strength is growing

Sabka Malik Ek It is puerile and naïve to disagree that The Lord is one. He appeared as a fire column to Moses to hand over instructions and he appears as fire column to us also. When Veda says ‘For the glory of thee, O Rudra, the life powers make bright thy birth into a richly manifold beauty. When that highest step -- The supreme plane of the three -- of Vishnu is founded within, thou guardest by it the secret name of the Ray cows. ‘ Note: Some people remind me that this hymn is for Agni. It is true that the hymn is for Agni. But these people cannot digest that Agni is Rudra. Soul of all Gods is Rudra. Some people (same set of people) again say that Siva is mentioned as the Supreme Lord in the Tamasic Puranas only. This is a blatant lie, perpetuated either due to ignorance or willfully. Some people have also stated that Vedas are the source of all contradictions and hence they want Krishna out of the folds of Sanatana Dharma. They forget that the contradictions are in their minds and their so-called Ego (Maya). In fact, Puranas only name Brahman as Maha-Visnu, Rama, and Krisna. In Vedas and Vedanta, Brahman is all – the root being Rudra. In Vedas there is no Maha-Visnu. The followers of Sanatana Dharma see no contradiction in this. They know that One Supreme Being only manifests as everything. Vedas declare that: “To the earthly beings, Brahman will be known as Rama”. Serious minded ones may please read the whole of Rig Veda to find this sloka. Some people (same set of people again) say: well Rudra drank the poison with the help of Vayu and Rudra derives his strength from Visnu. Both the statements are true but the interpretations are funny since they are biased. My daughter derives strength through Horlicks, so Horlicks is the Lord. My daughter derives prana through Vayu, so Vayu is the Lord. That my daughter’s soul is the Lord is forgotten. Rudra is the soul of the Gods. Rudra is the “Bhargo” in the Gayatri. He is Agni. He is the soul of Savitar who manifests Agni. Agni when thus brought down is Visnu. Below are given a few references from the Vedas to Rudra-Siva as the one Lord, who has become all. Rig Veda tells: ‘Rudra by day, Rudra at night we honour with these our songs, the Universe's Father. Him great and lofty, blissful, undecaying let us call especially as the Sage impels us.’ Yajur Veda: iv. 5. 9. a ----------. p Homage to you, sparkling hearts of the gods yo rudro agnau yo apsu ya oshhadhIshhu yo rudro vishvA bhuvanA.a.avivesha tasmai rudrAya namo astu Prostrations to that Rudra who exists in fire, water, and air, herbs and all the worlds From Rig Veda Rig Veda 7.46.2 To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God with swiftly-flying shafts, The Wise, the Conqueror whom none may overcome, armed with sharp-pointed weapons: may he hear our call. He through his lordship thinks on beings of the earth, on heavenly beings through his high imperial sway. Come willingly to our doors that gladly welcome thee, and heal all sickness, Rudra, in our families. Note that “To Rudra bring these songs” – The Rig Veda is a song of Rudra Again note “his lordship thinks on beings of the earth, on heavenly beings through his high imperial sway” RV 2.33 1. Lord of Maruts, let thy bliss approach us: ----------. 3 Chief of all born art thou in glory, Rudra, armed with the thunder, mightiest of the mighty. ------ 9 With firm limbs, multiform, the strong, the tawny adorns himself with bright gold decorations: The strength of Godhead ne'er departs from Rudra, him who is Sovran of this world, the mighty. 10 Worthy, thou carriest thy bow and arrows, worthy, thy many hued and honoured necklace. Worthy, thou cuttest here each fiend to pieces: a mightier than thou there is not, Rudra. ------------- 15 O tawny Bull, thus showing forth thy nature, as neither to be wroth, O God, nor slay us. Here, Rudra, listen to our invocation. Loud may we speak, with heroes, in assembly. HYMN XLIII. Rudra. 1 WHAT shall we sing to Rudra, strong------ 2 That Aditi may grant the grace of Rudra to our folk, our kine, Our cattle and our progeny; 3 ----- 4 To Rudra Lord of sacrifice, of hymns and balmy medicines, We pray for joy and health and strength. 5 He shines in splendour like the Sun, refulgent as bright gold is he, The good, the best among the Gods. 6 --------- Note 1: Aditi, mother of Vishnu, is invoked to obtain Rudra’s grace. Note 2: Rudra is the Lord of sacrifice and hymns Rig Veda 6. 74. 3 Soma and Rudra, provide for our bodies all needful medicines. Loosen and withdraw from within us whatever sin we have committed, which still adheres within our persons. Note: Liberation from Karma and its effects is Shiva’s domain. Indra himself is called Shiva several times in Rig Veda (2:20:3, 6:45:17, 8:93:3). Rig Veda 10.125.8 He is Rudra because He makes sinners weep ... is called Shiva as He is the benefactor and the well-wisher of all. From Yajur Veda iv. 4. 8. (Thou I art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of strength through might; creator with the bull; bountiful through the sacrifice; heavenly through the sacrificial fee; slayer of enemies through rage; supporter of the body through kindliness; wealth through food; through the earth he hath won; (thou art) eater of food with verses; increased by the Vasat cry; protector of the body through the Saman; full of light with the Viraj; drinker of Soma through the holy power; with cows he supporteth the sacrifice; with lordly power men; with horse and car bearer of the bolt; lord with the seasons; enclosing with the year; unassailable through penance; the sun with bodies. iv. 4. 9. (Thou art) Prajapati in mind, when come to the Soma; the creator in the consecration; Savitr in the bearing; Pusan in the cow for the purchase of the Soma; Varuna when bound (in the cloth); Asura in the being bought; Mitra when purchased; Çipivista when put in place; delighter of men when being drawn forward; the overlord on arrival; Prajapati being led on; Agni at the Agnidh's altar; Brhaspati on being led from the Agnidh's altar; Indra at the oblation-holder; Aditi when put in place; Visnu when being taken down; Atharvan when made wet; Yama when pressed out; drinker of unpurified (Soma) when being cleansed; Vayu when purifying; Mitra as mixed with milk; the Manthin when mixed with groats; that of the All-gods when taken out; Rudra when offered; Vayu when covered up; the gazer on men when revealed; the food when it comes; the famed of the fathers; life when taken; the river when going to the final bath; the ocean when gone; the water when dipped; the heaven when arrived at completion. Please read the above again and again: Thou art everything but you are Rudra when offered. All offerings at sacrifice go to Rudra alone. iv. 5. 1. ------- c That body of thine, O Rudra, which is kindly, Not dread, with auspicious look, With that body, most potent to heal, O haunter of the mountains, do thou look on us. d ------- f The advocate hath spoken in advocacy, The first divine leech, Confounding all the serpents And all sorceries. g --------- h He who creepeth away, Blue-necked and ruddy, Him the cowherds have seen, Have seen the bearers of water And him all creatures; May be, seen, be gentle unto us. (Reference to Sun) i Homage to the blue-necked, Thousand-eyed one, the bountiful And to those that are his warriors (reference to Indra) I ------ iv. 5. 2. a Homage to the golden-armed leader of hosts, and to the lord of the quarters homage! b --------- Note: Lord of the hosts and Lord of the quarters iv. 5. 5. a Homage to Bhava and to Rudra. b Homage to Çarva -----------. f Homage to him who haunteth the mountains, and to Çipivista. g --------------. I Homage to the chief, and to the first. m -----------------. Note: Rudra is Carva. Carva is all. Rudra is Cipivista and That Thou art. iv. 5. 9. a ----------. p Homage to you, sparkling hearts of the gods. q ------------- s Homage to the unconquerable. t Homage to the destroyers. iv. 5. 6. a Homage to the oldest, and to the youngest. b Homage to the first born, and to the later born. c ------------. Note: Spakling heart of the Gods. Note: Oldest and the youngest. The first born and the later born. iv. 5. 7. ------- n Homage to him of the cloud, and to him of the lightning. o Homage to him of the cloudy sky, and to him of the heat. p Homage to him of the wind, and to him of the storm. q Homage to him of the dwelling, and to him who guardeth the dwelling. Note: He is in heat (agni), lightning (Indra), Wind (Vayu), Storm (Maruts). The dwelling and its guard. iv. 5. 8. a Homage to Soma, and to Rudra. b Homage to the dusky one, and to the ruddy one. (Note: Homage to the two most luminous of His forms: The Sun (Savitar) and the Moon (Soma)). c ----------. f Homage to the slayer, and to the special slayer. g -----------. h Homage to the deliverer. i Homage to the source of health, and to the source of delight. k Homage to the maker of health, and to the maker of delight. I Homage to the auspicious, and to the more auspicious. m --------------- n Homage to him beyond, and to him on this side. o Homage to him who crosseth over, and to him who crosseth back. p ---------------- iv. 5. 9. a ------ f ------------------ p Homage to you, sparkling hearts of the gods. q --------- s Homage to the unconquerable. t Homage to the destroyers. Note: Unconquerable iv. 5. 10. a ------ b That auspicious form of thine, O Rudra, Auspicious and ever healing, Auspicious and healing (form of) Rudra, With that show mercy on us for life. c ----------, e ---------- k O most bounteous, most auspicious, Be auspicious and favourably inclined to us; Placing down thy weapon on the highest tree, Clad in thy skin, come, And approach us bearing the spear [4]. 1 ----------. iv. 5. 11. a ----- b The Bhavas in this great ocean, (Note: The ocean where Visnu rests). The atmosphere-- c The Çarvas of black necks, and white throats, Who wander below on the earth-- d The Rudras who abide in the sky, Of black necks and white throats-- e ------ Homage to the Rudras on the earth, in the atmosphere, in the sky, whose arrows are food, wind, and rain, to them ten eastwards, ten to the south, ten to the west, ten to the north, ten upwards; to them homage, be they merciful to us, him whom we hate and him who hateth us, I place him within your jaws. Note: Don’t say these are Tamasic. Then better accept that you are not an adherent of Sanatana Dharma. Many in this site deride Rudra out of ignorance (tamas), stating that Rudra is Tamas. They deride some Puranas similarly. What they do not understand is that the He is the Lord of Tamas – a state most difficult to overcome. A Jiva seeped in Tamas will have no other resort but to fall at the feet of Siva-Rudra. It does not matter whether the non believers will ever believe or not. It is Lord’s will only. Some ripe Jivas may however derive knowledge.

Dear Antarjnani You can ask a few questions. You exist. But you are what? Are you the body and mind (so called brain of modern science)? If you are the body and the brain and these 2 are doing all things for you, then why the body and brain (which remain after death) cannot desire more life for themselves. What happens at the time of death? Though your body and brain exists, but you lose conciousness. What is this conciousness? Ask yourself and ponder. Without this conciousness, what is mind? And you claim that God is a product of mind. Well, you are correct (though in a wrong way) at least partially. Great sages: Buddha, RamaKrishna ans Ramana bhagwan tell that for Self-Realised persons (who continously abide in GOD or Self), the pure mind (mind without a trace of sankalpa) is nothing but God. Atanu

Om Namah Bhagavate Shri Ramanaya Om Om Namah Sivayya You said that Krishna as personality - body, name, lilas, companions and so on, is the source of impersonal Brahman as below. …”••Krsna is not "embodied".. he's not a soul put in a body.. he'sat cit ananda rupa.. eternal, conscious, blissful...body, name, lilas, companions and so on. And brahman is his effulgence (as said in gita) ••in gita it is said that krsna person is the source of brahman impersonal..” My comment: To prove, you cite the followings: “---------Chapter 13 TEXT 13 jneyam yat tat pravaksyami yaj jnatvamrtam asnute anadi mat-param brahma na sat tan nasad ucyate --------- TRANSLATION I shall now explain the knowable, knowing which you will taste the eternal. This is beginningless, and it is subordinate to Me. It is called Brahman, the spirit, and it lies beyond the cause and effect of this material world. Chapter 14. The Three Modes Of Material Nature TEXT 3 mama yonir mahad brahma tasmin garbham dadhamy aham sambhavah sarva-bhutanam tato bhavati bharata SYNONYMS mama--My; yonih--source of birth; mahat--the total material existence; brahma--supreme; tasmin--in that; garbham--pregnancy; dadhami--create; aham--I; sambhavah--possibility; sarva-bhutanam--of all living entities; tatah--thereafter; bhavati--becomes; bharata--O son of Bharata. TRANSLATION The total material substance, called Brahman, is the source of birth, and it is that Brahman that I impregnate, making possible the births of all living beings, O son of Bharata.-----------------.” My comments: These are from Gita as it is. So, I reproduce the purport from the author below: PURPORT The Lord has explained the field of activities and the knower of the field. -------- therefore the description of Brahman mentioned in this verse is in relation to the individual soul, and when the word Brahman is applied to the living entity, it is to be understood that he is vijnana-brahma as opposed to ananta-brahma. Ananta-brahma is the Supreme Brahman Personality of Godhead. My comments: Friends may please check up. Prabhupada himself says Brahma in this sloka refers to vijnana-brahma (Lord Brahma) and not to ananta-brahma( Brahman of Upanishads). Similarly in Sloka 3 of Chapter 14, again Material Brahma is referred to. Then, when I look up other authors, I see something more. I checked up several translations and could not find meaning of ‘anadi mat-param brahma’ as ‘Brahma is subordinate to Me’. Every other translator says: Anaadimatparam brahma is WITHOUT BEGINNING, THE HIGHEST Brahman Friends may check below and elsewhere. The same Sloka 13 of Chapter 13 is repeated below. From Chinmaya Mission Chicago sarwatah pAnipAdam tat sarwatah akshishiromukham sarwatah shrutimat loke sarwam Awrtya tishthati ||13.13|| "I will declare that which has to be "known", knowing which one attains to Immortality--the beginningless Supreme BRAHMAN, called neither being nor non-being." WITHOUT BEGINNING, THE HIGHEST Brahman (Anaadimatparam)- A beginning can be conceived and calculated only with reference to what is the substratum of all, which substratum must be existent even before Time. Thus, the Supreme is always considered as "beginningless". From the Supreme even Time is born. With reference to It, everything else is an "object". It is the one Subject From Trimbak Telano, Translated to English in 1882 I will declare that which is the object of knowledge, knowing which, one reaches immortality; the highest Brahman, having no beginning nor end, which cannot be said to be existent or non-existent. 5 It has hands and feet on all sides, it has eyes, heads, and faces on all sides, it has ears on all sides, it stands pervading everything in the world. Possessed of the qualities of all the senses, but devoid of all senses, unattached, it supports all, is devoid of qualities, and the enjoyer of qualities. 6 It is within all things and without them; it is movable and also immovable; it is unknowable through its subtlety; it stands both far off and near. Not different in different things, but standing as though different, it should be known to be the supporter of all things, and that which absorbs and creates them. It is the radiance even of the radiant bodies; it is said to be beyond darkness. It is knowledge, the object of knowledge, that which is to be attained to by knowledge, and placed in the heart of all. Thus in brief have Kshetra, knowledge, and the object of knowledge been declared. My devotee, knowing this, becomes fit for assimilation with me. Sanderson Beck "'What is to be known that I shall explain, knowing which, one attains immortality; this beginningless supreme God is said to be neither being nor non-being. Everywhere having hands and feet, everywhere eyes, heads, faces, everywhere in the world ears, this stands all pervading, From Swami Sivananda Jneyam yattat pravakshyaami yajjnaatwaa’mritamashnute; Anaadimatparam brahma na sattannaasaduchyate. 13. I will declare that which has to be known, knowing which one attains to immortality, the beginningless supreme Brahman, called neither being nor non-being. Sarvatah paanipaadam tat sarvato’kshishiromukham; Sarvatah shrutimalloke sarvamaavritya tishthati. 14. With hands and feet everywhere, with eyes, heads and mouths everywhere, with ears everywhere, He exists in the worlds, enveloping all. Sarvendriyagunaabhaasam sarvendriyavivarjitam; Asaktam sarvabhricchaiva nirgunam gunabhoktru cha. 15. Shining by the functions of all the senses, yet without the senses; unattached, yet supporting all; devoid of qualities, yet their experiencer, Bahirantashcha bhootaanaam acharam charameva cha; Sookshmatwaat tadavijneyam doorastham chaantike cha tat. 16. Without and within (all) beings, the unmoving and also the moving; because of His subtlety, unknowable; and near and far away is That. Pandit Ramanand Prasad I shall fully describe the object of knowledge, knowing which one attains immortality. The beginningless Supreme Brahman is said to be neither Sat nor Asat. (See also 9.19) (13.12) Having hands and feet everywhere; having eyes, head, and face everywhere; having ears everywhere; the creator exists in the creation by pervading everything. (13.13) He is the perceiver of all sense objects without the senses; unattached, yet the sustainer of all; devoid of the Gunas, yet the enjoyer of the Gunas. (13.14) Pandit V. Jayaraman 1. "That which is to be known I will now declare to you by knowing which immortality is attained. The eternal Supreme Brahman is neither sat nor asat it is said. 2. "Everywhere hands and feet It has, Everywhere eyes, heads and faces, everywhere in the world ears. Everything It envelops sitting. 3. "Source of all the senses and qualities, but devoid of any senses, detached but bearing all, without qualities but partaker of the qualities. 4. "Outside and inside of all beings, moving and non moving, and also very subtle and incomprehensible, far away but also very nearer And You ignore Chapter VIII ----“3. Brahman is the Imperishable, the Supreme; His essential nature is called Self-knowledge; the offering (to HIM) causes existence and manifestation of beings and which sustains them is called action. Adhibhootam ksharo bhaavah purushashchaadhidaivatam; Adhiyajno’hamevaatra dehe dehabhritaam vara. 4. Adhibhuta (knowledge of the elements) pertains to My perishable Nature, and the Purusha or soul is the Adhidaiva; I alone am the Adhiyajna here in this body, O best among the embodied (men)! “------- You ignore that Brahman is imperishable. Adhydaiava (Purusha) is different and Adhyyajna is the original sacrifice of Purusha. By adhyyajna Lord Krishna exists. I will follow Gokul’s advice of not arguing any more. Thanks for calling me Asura. You might not know that Savitar is also called Asura in Rig Veda Atanu

"••no, as krsna states in gita, he's the source of brahman... do not try to kill siva and vishnu to say that they are generated by brahman... better to argue on who is supreme than to say that the supreme is impersonal brahman... that is not" Never heard that KRSNA gives birth to impersonal eternal Brahman -- the Maha Kala. Atanu

Dear Guest Ji Om Vinayaka Nama Om Om Nama Bhagavate Vasydevayya Nama Om Om Nama Sivvayya The original thread having become too long, I have started this. But this material is also added to thev end of the original thread – Dvaita-Advaita debate. ”••Krsna is not "embodied".. he's not a soul put in a body.. he'sat cit ananda rupa.. eternal, conscious, blissful...body, name, lilas, companions and so on. And brahman is his effulgence (as said in gita) ••in gita it is said that krsna person is the source of brahman impersonal.. so the role of source is exchanged, All the god's activities are leelas because they are not originated by needs, and they are sat cit ananda, not maya” OH, MY GOD. OH, MY GOD. ‘And brahman is his effulgence (as said in gita) ••in gita it is said that krsna person is the source of brahman impersonal’ (readers please check in the above para what he has written). The eternal effulgence of Brahman comes from Krishna. This I did not know. This must be there in the Srutis and the Upanishads about which I do not know. And the sages who wrote Upanishads also did not know. Is it there in the Bhagavatam? In Chapter VII of Gita: The way to the Supreme Spirit, Lord says: The blessed Lord said: Sloka 3. The highest imperishable principle is Brahman. Its existence as embodied soul is called Adhyatma (my comments: the Adi Atma or Para Atman), and the offerings (into sacrificial fire) which causes the development of beings. Later he says: I am that as Adhyajna in this body. Then in sloka 6 in the same chapter He states: 6. Thinking of whatever object at the time of death a person leaves the body, he attains, O son of Kunti, that very object, being constantly absorbed in its thought. 8. Therefore remember Me at all times and fight; with your mind and intellect devoted to Me, shall attain Me alone – there is no doubt about this. Do some exercise and find out that the Lord also says that one who attains me does not ever return. And you say that there the personality differences are eternal. Huhh. I could not find out where He is saying that He is above the one imperishable Brahman. Oh, yes. I understand what you mean, The Brahma Loka: the world of the unmanifested beings (spirits with desires remaining) that take birth again and again. Yes, personalities exist at this level. And know that at Brahma Loka, the entities are not CIts. They have residual desires that causes repeated births. Your understanding is very faulty and you don’t understand the difference of Brahma Loka – the abode of the creator Brahma and the Supreme Brahman, who is Hara that absorbs all differences and becomes Tamas only. ”••god is CIT, his parts and parcels are CIT because god gives to them consciousness, they are one, because god has to be omnipresent, but they are also different because difference is necessary for life, relationship, love ••this for material personality, but f there's a material one, you must have a spiritual one, because spirit is the origin of everything and spirit is not inferior to matter ••your opinion unsupported by your demonstration... if matter is various , spirit is various... so one (sat)cit(ananda) is the source of existence of infinite (sat)cit(anandas)... ••but there's a cit who emanates and infinite cits who are emanated.. this is basically the symbolism of quantity.. ••of course.. to believe that the absolute is beyond material variety.. is right, to believe that absolute has not spiritual variety, for me, for logic, scriptures, gita and many acharyas is maya ••please show it to me , maybe i can explain better.. god and parcels are both satcitananda, but the first is satcitananda because of his power.. parcels are satcitananda because this power is given by god” Guest Ji, you are not talking about CIT at all. Personality does not adhere to CIT. You are not talking about CIT. You are talking about greed, desire, cruelty. Vanity etc. etc. “Do you mean such personality differences reside at soul level? ••of course .. we are different now and in the absolute world, otherwise we will lose the possibility to relationate, to love ••if you have changement, progress, evolution in this world it is not possible to negate it in the spiritual one.. so there's eternity and evolution, simultaneously... radha brings a rose and a daisy to krsna, and krsna says "i like more the roses!".. and the next day radha brings roses.. eternity and evolution, this is life The how is your soul eternal, which you agreed earlier? ••variety is eternal, eternity is various” I love it. Guest ji says: of course .. we are different now and in the absolute world. He says, of course personality differences are eternal at soul level. In Haras world, he will exist as a different personality. Have you heard about slap of Bhairav? Let us again hear what the Lord says: 6. Thinking of whatever object at the time of death a person leaves the body, e attains, O son of Kunti, that very object, being constantly absorbed in its thought. 8. Therefore remember Me at all times and fight; with your mind and intellect devoted to Me, shall attain Me alone – there is no doubt about this. “••through maya, maya is the energy, the personified energy, and through her krsna gives the forgetfullness.. as stated in gita ••the consciousness of god is from himself, our consciousness is from god , not from ourselves.. it is stated in gita, it is demonstrated by the fact the when we have the desire to forget god, through maya, gives to us forgefulness... and when we develope, through religion, the desire to coe back in consciousness god makes us remember and come back in CIT” Oh, yes. The permanent differences in CIT, the giver of eternally different personality The from Maya. You stated it. Now, I remember. “••maya's world is not at all false, it is a perversion of spiritual world... like real world and prison or real world and hospital. In the jail you have some resemblance of the relationships and behaviours of the outside world, but simultaneously it is very different. The logic says that less is contained in more and not the opposite. So if in material world we have many, in spiritual world we cannot have one, we have more many... infinite ••transcendentally dynamic... if dynamism, changement is in the relative, it is also in the absolute... but it inconceivably coexist with oneness, identity My God. And now you state that Maya is eternal. Maya is eternal in general. But it is not eternal for all persons at all times. Through grace Maya is unveiled (you have stated it earlier. If Maya is eternal for all Jivas, all Jivas are eternally bonded since Maya will be eternal for all. Your idea about soul is faulty. Your idea about Brahman is faulty. Your idea about Maya is faulty. All yopur arguments stem from misconcetion that I am talking about Brahma Loka and not the Supreme Brahman who is unmanifest and formless but is source of all personalities and is infinitely more besides. Lord Krishna is born of that Brahman through AdyYagna: the original sacrifice. Ignorance is Biss.. And all the time the readers felt: What a grand discussion. Huhh. As further knowledge: After showing to Arjuna the vision of the Universe, The Lord says in Chapter XI (The Vision of the Universal Form: Sloka 32: I am the terrible Time (Kala), the destroyer of people ---------. Now friends know about Mahakala that is beyond and beneath the time. From MAITRAYANA-BRAHMAYA-UPANISHAD (A vaishnava Upanishad) ‘5. The Valakhilyas said: ‘O Saint, thou art the teacher, thou art the teacher. What thou hast said, has been properly laid up in our mind. Now answer us a further question: Agni, Vayu, Aditya, Time (kala) which is Breath (prana), Food (anna), Brahma, Rudra, Vishnu, thus do some meditate on one, some on another. Say which of these is the best for us.' He said to them: 6. These are but the chief manifestations of the highest, the immortal, the incorporeal Brahman. He who is devoted to one, rejoices here in his world (presence), thus he said. Brahman indeed is all this, and a man may meditate on, worship, or discard also those which are its chief manifestations. With these (deities) he proceeds to higher and higher worlds, and when all things perish, he becomes one with the Purusha, yes, with the Purusha.' Note, when all things perish he becomes one with Purusha. Then again: Further: 13. And thus it is said elsewhere: This food is the body of the blessed Vishnu, called Visvabhrit (all-sustaining). ------- 14. And thus it has been said elsewhere: Food is the cause of all this, Time of food, and the Sun is the cause of Time. Remember now friends, Sun is the cause of Time – Kala. And now the final stroke: 15 . There are two forms of Brahman, time (Kala) and non-time (Maha Kala). That which was before the (existence of the) sun is non-time and has no parts. That which had its beginning from the sun is Time and has parts. Of that which has parts, the year is the form, and from the year are born all creatures; ------- 'Time ripens and dissolves all beings in the great Self, but he who knows into what Time itself is dissolved, he is the knower of the Veda.' And what was before the SUN, before Kala? “2. In the beginning darkness alone was this. It was in the Highest, and, moved by the Highest, it becomes uneven. Thus it becomes obscurity. Then this obscurity, being moved, becomes uneven. Thus it becomes goodness. Then this goodness, being moved, the essence flowed forth. This is that part (or state of Self) which is entirely intelligent, reflected in man (as the sun is in different vessels of water) knowing the body (kshetragna), attested by his conceiving, willing, and believing, it is Pragapati, called Visva. His manifestations have been declared before. Now that part of him which belongs to darkness (before Kala), that, O students, is he who is called Rudra. --------. He being one, becomes three, becomes eight, becomes eleven, becomes twelve, becomes infinite.” So, friends, what was before Kala? What is Mahakala? Where is Kala absorbed at the end of a Kalpa? Atanu