atanu

Namste theist, Yes, I insist that you are thinking the apparent division as real and permanent. The explanation is below. Please digest the following and then answer why Lord says: And undivided, yet He exists as if divided in beings? Avibhaktam cha bhooteshu vibhaktamiva cha sthitam; Bhootabhartru cha tajjneyam grasishnu prabhavishnu cha. 17. And undivided, yet He exists as if divided in beings; He is to be known as the supporter of beings; He devours and He generates also. Who said Brahman is static? Did I? Sleep will be really good for you. At least your mind being asleep (static), will not create the boundaries. Om

Namaste theist, No. You do not comprehend what you yourself say. You have confused the mere objects (the bodies) with so-called others. A brahmvid knows the other bodies as similar to his own body as mere objects which dance by the will of the consciousness, which is indivisible one. Till your mind makes you identify yourself with your body and the mind (which are ever changing) you will stick to the view that there is a brahmvid (knower of Brahman) who sees others. Whereas, for the brahmvid, the other bodies are (similar to his own body) objects which are illuminated by the light and intelligence of ONE. Avibhaktam cha bhooteshu vibhaktamiva cha sthitam; Bhootabhartru cha tajjneyam grasishnu prabhavishnu cha. 17. And undivided, yet He exists as if divided in beings; He is to be known as the supporter of beings; He devours and He generates also. ------------------ Unfortunately, I repeat that you have a strong mistaken idea that the very many bodies that apparently divide the Atman, have realities of their own. If you pause for some time and enquire as to what is sanatan in jiva, you will then realise that the sanatan is ONE: And undivided, yet He exists as if divided in beings. Unfortunately again, some egos in their zeal to denigrate their apparent opponents, negate the teaching of the Lord. Om

Namaste Theist, Exactly. Advaita says that Maya is Maya -- a mistake. A mistake is not a reality. But please compare your view with that of great knower, Ranjit, who said: Thus granting Maya an eternal place along with Brahman. ---------- I therefore asked Ranjit to explain what is his understanding of Advaita so we could have something on which to discuss, rather than just throw around opinions. OM

Excellent. So, sanatan is the common factor that must be known before we can make any comment as to what is Jiva, what is Maya, and what is Brahman? OM. ranjit, do you know the sanatana in you? And can you list down the key teachings of Advaita to show to us that you know as to what you are calling 'a hoax'?

Namaste More, Yes. Raso vai saha is eternally correct. Also correct is 'Sa ekaakii na ramate' when one does not know Shivam. Absolutely correct is :V-45. All is calm (needing) no support, existing in the ether (of the heart), eternal, Shivam, devoid of ailment and illusion, name and cause. V-46. Neither existent nor-existent, nor in between, nor the negation of all; beyond the grasp of mind and words, fuller than the fullest, more joyful than joy. ------------------ This joy does not need any support of another and does not need any support of creation. One must pause and at least do sharvana and manana. Ego positions are hard to give up but is required. Shri Krishna will teach so to the Yadus. Regards, Om

Namaste Suchandra Ji, Yes you have brought out an excellent point through Maha Upanishad. Thanks. Maha Upanishad I-1-4 athaato mahopanishhada.n vyaakhyaasyamastadaahureko ha vai naaraayaNa aasiinna brahmaa neshaano naapo naagniishhomau neme dyaavaapR^ithivii na nakshatraaNi na suuryo na chandramaaH . sa ekaakii na ramate . I-1-4. Then we shall expound the Mahopanishad. They say Narayana was alone. There were not Brahma, Isha, Waters, Fire and Soma, Heaven and Earth, Stars, Sun and Moon. He could not be happy. ---------- V.46 sarva.n shaanta.n niraalamba.n vyomastha.n shaashvata.n shivam.h . anaamayamanaabhaasamanaamakamakaaraNam.h .. 45.. V. 46 na sannasanna madhyaanta.n na sarva.n sarvameva cha . manovachobhiragraahyaM puurNaatpuurNa.n sukhaatsukham.h .. 46.. V-45. All is calm (needing) no support, existing in the ether (of the heart), eternal, Shivam, devoid of ailment and illusion, name and cause. V-46. Neither existent nor-existent, nor in between, nor the negation of all; beyond the grasp of mind and words, fuller than the fullest, more joyful than joy. Yes, an excellent point. Brahaman is Sad-Chid-ananda. Whereas the Maha Upanishad says in the beginning that Narayyana was not happy alone: sa ekaakii na ramate (He could not be happy alone). . On the other hand the verses V-45 and V-46 say: Shivam, devoid of ailment and illusion, name and cause.----fuller than the fullest, more joyful than joy. Nikhileshwara Namah OM

Namaste Smiley, Maha-Narayana Upanishad XXI-1: May the Supreme who is the ruler of all knowledge, controller of all created beings, the preserver of the Vedas and the one overlord of Hiranyagarbha, be benign to me. I am the Sadasiva described thus and denoted by Pranava. Yes. Every knower of Brahman knows that the "I" is Shiva alone, as the Sage who composed the Maha Narayana Upanishad teaches. Ignorant think "I" as something different from Sadashiva. Yes. I am the Sadasiva described thus and denoted by Pranava. Om Namah Shivaya

Yes, there are eleven Rudras in every being. These eleven Rudras are offsprings of one Aja Rudra. Om

Dear Bhaktajan, Dear Bhakta there is no flag pole except in your hierarchial mind. God is beyond comparison and let us worship Him as incomparable. Your bhakti is marvelous but so is bhakti of many others. Because you belong to a particular school of thought is no reason to run down other devotees. More mature devotees in this very thread have given their views. We do not ask you to accept those views but we request you to be a bit more mature. You have not read anything other than purports given to you. Those purports may be suitable to you but that does not invaldate other purports and especially the Veda. Please read what has been written above of Shiva Rudra from Bhagavatam. And please also read the following very carefully. Rig Veda Shiv 1.187.01 I glorify Father, the great, the upholder, the strong, by whose invigorating power Trita (Indra) slew the mutilated Vr.tra. 1.187.02 Savoury Pita_; sweet pita_; we worship you; become our protector. 1.187.03 Come to us, Pita_, Shiv with auspicious aids; a source of delight; not unpalatable; a friend well respected, and having none but agreeable properties. 1.187.04 Your flavours, Pita_, are diffused through the regions, as the winds are spread through the sky. 1.187.05 Those (men), Pita_, (are the enjoyers of your bounty), who are your distributors, most sweet Pita_, (to others); they who are the relishers of your flavours, are as if they had stiff necks. 1.187.06 The thoughts of the mighty gods are fixed, Pita_, upon you; by your kind and intelligent assistance, (Indra) slew Ahi. 1.187.07 When, Pita_, this (product) of the water-wealthy clouds, (the rain), arrives; then do you, sweet Pita_, be at hand with sufficiency for our eating. 1.187.08 And since we enjoy the abundance of the waters and the plants; therefore, Body, do you grow fat. 1.187.09 And since we enjoy, Soma, your mixture with boiled milk or boiled barley; therefore, Body, do you grow fat. 1.187.10 Vegetable cake of fried meal, do you be substantial, wholesome, and invigorating; and, Body, do you grow fat. 1.187.11 We extract from you, Pita_, by our praises, (the sacrificial food), as cows yield butter for oblation; from you, who are exhilarating to the gods; exhilarating also to us. ------------------ Shiv is the invigorator, the intelligence, the guide, the protector, the upholder, the food by which you grow. And Shiv is the all pervading Vishnu, who is the good Shiv. You may know your father by the name of Rama and I may know the name of your father by the name of Krishna, but that does not change anything of the Universal father, the Seer of the Hiraynagarbha. He is all that is important in you. Rest is inert ash. Shiv Shiv.

Namaskar Amlesh, Thank you for your considered reply. You are correct. It is not my intention to generalise therefore I stated: But a few very immature devotees (mostly non-indian neo HK devotees perhaps) read some purports and apply that to Shiva as demi God and what not. Om

Namaskar Bija, Thanks for the nice post. You, IMO, should integrate the above knowledge with the following (which has also been posted in another thread): Svetasvatara Upanishad, Chapter 3 2. For there is one Rudra only, they do not allow a second, who rules all the worlds by his powers. He stands behind all persons, and after having created all worlds he, the protector, rolls it up at the end of time. 3. That one god, having his eyes, his face, his arms, and his feet in every place, when producing heaven and earth, forges them together with his arms and his Wings. 4. He, the creator and supporter of the gods, Rudra, the great seer, the lord of all, he who formerly gave birth to Hiranyagarbha, may he endow us with good thoughts. The same knowledge is also there in Maha Narayana Upanishad. There, through our sleeping (realm of Sarvesvara all attractive dark Krishna-Rudra), Dreaming (realm of luminous creator Hiranyagarbha) and Waking (realm of Agnivaisvanara) is one Seer, who knows these states and remains unchanged. This achintyam is the Shiva Advaita Atman Turya who never slumbers. Lord Krishna is known truly when He is known as Shiva Advaita Atman. Om

Namaste Ravindran Ji, There will be some misunderstanding in understanding the above verse if the phenomenal state of waking, dreaming, and sleeping and the transcendental Seer the Turya are not differentiiated and understood. Please consider as to why a single sage, while expressing his realisation and knowledge, has named more than one divinity such as Soma, Aditi, Vishnu, Indra etc etc., if there is no differences in these names? What is actually intended is that Lord is ONE-EKO and He alone bears all these names and forms, as below: IV-3: Thou art the woman, Thou art the man, Thou art the youth and the maiden too. Thou art the old man who totters along, leaning on the staff. Thou art born with faces turned in all directions. IV-4: Thou art the dark blue butterfly, and the green parrot with red eyes. Thou art the thunder-cloud, the seasons and the oceans. Thou art without beginning, and beyond all time and space. Thou art He from whom all the worlds are born. ------------------ Being in phenomenal realm and never ever having experienced the Samadhi of Turya, the differences of names and forms affect us very practically and we cannot say that the reality is one only and the names and forms do not signify any real differences. The differences are only transcended in the Turya. Scriptures however exhort us to the Advaita Turya which is without a Second Lord, wherein there is no other and no fear and no death. The following verse from Mandukya Upanishad explains (on proper contemplation) what Shankaracharya teaches: Mandukya Upanishad The Fourth is thought of as that which is not conscious of the internal world, nor conscious of the external world, nor conscious of both the worlds, nor dense with consciousness, nor simple consciousness, nor unconsciousness, which is unseen, actionless, incomprehensible, uninferable, unthinkable, indescribable, whose proof consists in the identity of the Self (in all states), in which all phenomena come to a cessation, and which is unchanging, auspicious, and non-dual. That is the Self; that is to be known. It is unchanging, it is known as One, all phenomena come to ceasation, it is the Self -- not another one. Self cannot be another one. It is unchanging, so number of other souls joining it as different entities is ruled out. It is Advaita. Number of other souls joining it yet remaining separate entities is ruled out. It is actionless. So, thoughts of serving it or actual tasks undertaken to serve it are not possible. It is not conscious of the inner or the outer. So, the consciousness of me and another is impossible. It not unconsciousness either. So, it is aware of itself without inner or outer perceptions. It is the Self which is Brahman. So nothing exceeds it. That is the Self; that is to be known, though Mandukya terms the Self as achnityam - unthinkable. The Self is unthinkable because the Self alone thinks. There is no other with any power of cognition whatsoever. Only true way to know the Lord is in Samadhi, in union, as Advaita Atma. That which is without parts is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self. <!-- / sig --> Om Namah Shivaya

Namaskar Amlesh, Thank you for your post. I however, wish to further clarify a few points. We do not take Gaudya purports as Shruti, though for Gaudiya Bhaktas those purports may be valid -- as per their requirement and predilections. No problem with that approach since for Christians by name God is different. Difference of naming does not change the Truth. But a few very immature devotees (mostly non-indian neo HK devotees perhaps) read some purports and apply that to Shiva as demi God and what not. If the followers of Sanatana Dharma do not rectify that, it is a great misfortune for us and not for Shiva or sanatana Dharma. Svetasvatara Upanishad 4.18. When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Shiva alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient wisdom proceeded thence. Sadashiva is advaitaatma. There is no second being. Rudra, the revealed Pragnya of the Eternal Beneficient Sadashiva is described as below in Shruti and in Bhagavatam: Svetasvatara Upanishad, Chapter 3 2. For there is one Rudra only, they do not allow a second, who rules all the worlds by his powers. He stands behind all persons, and after having created all worlds he, the protector, rolls it up at the end of time. 3. That one god, having his eyes, his face, his arms, and his feet in every place, when producing heaven and earth, forges them together with his arms and his Wings. 4. He, the creator and supporter of the gods, Rudra, the great seer, the lord of all, he who formerly gave birth to Hiranyagarbha, may he endow us with good thoughts. Bhagavatam (in Churning of the Ocean Chapter). 23. O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahma, Visnu and Mahesvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation. 24. You are the cause of all causes, the self-effulgent, inconceivable, Supreme Brahman . You manifest various potencies in this cosmic manifestation. 31. O Lord Girisa, since your Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra. -------------------------- Shruti clarifies that there is no difference in EKO (Advaita Atman Shiva) and the All Pervading. But those who see the differences based on their own guna make up ( hierarchial hang-ups ) should read the following: Satapatha Brahmana, THE PRAVARGYA. 14:1:1:1 . The gods Agni, Indra, Soma, Makha, Vishnu, and the Visve Devâh, except the two Asvins, performed a sacrificial session. 14:1:1:2 . Their place of divine worship was Kurukshetra.. Therefore people say that Kurukshetra is the gods’ place of divine worship: hence wherever in Kurukshetra one settles there one thinks, 'This is a place for divine worship;' for it was the gods’ place of divine worship. 14:1:1:3 . They entered upon the session thinking, 'May we attain excellence! may we become glorious! may we become eaters of food!' And in like manner do these (men) now enter upon the sacrificial session thinking, 'May we attain excellence! may we become glorious! may we become eaters of food!' 14:1:1:4 . They spake, 'Whoever of us, through austerity, fervour, faith, sacrifice, and oblations, shall first compass the end of the sacrifice, he shall be the most excellent of us, and shall then be in common to us all.' 'So be it,' they said. 14:1:1:5 . Vishnu first attained it, and he became the most excellent of the gods; whence people say, 'Vishnu is the most excellent of the gods.' 14:1:1:6 . Now he who is this Vishnu is the sacrifice; and he who is this sacrifice is yonder Âditya (the sun). But, indeed, Vishnu was unable to control that (love of) glory of his; and so even now not every one can control that (love of) glory of his. 14:1:1:7 . Taking his bow, together with three arrows, he stepped forth. He stood, resting his head on the end of the bow. Not daring to attack him, the gods sat themselves down all around him. 14:1:1:8 . Then the ants said--these ants (vamrî), doubtless, were that (kind called) 'upadîkâ '--'What would ye give to him who should gnaw the bowstring?'--'We would give him the (constant) enjoyment of food, and he would find water even in the desert: so we would give him every enjoyment of food.'--'So be it,' they said. 14:1:1:9 . Having gone nigh unto him, they gnawed his bowstring. When it was cut, the ends of the bow, springing asunder, cut off Vishnu's head . 14:1:1:10 0. It fell with (the sound) 'ghriṅ'; and on falling it became yonder sun. And the rest (of the body) lay stretched out (with the top part) towards the east. And inasmuch as it fell with (the sound) 'ghriṅ,' therefrom the Gharma (was called); and inasmuch as he was stretched out (pra-vrig,), therefrom the Pravargya (took its name). 14:1:1:11 . The gods spake, 'Verily, our great hero (mahân virah) has fallen:' therefrom the Mahâvîra pot (was named). And the vital sap which flowed from him they wiped up (sam-mrig) with their hands, whence the Samrâg. --------- The non-dual God is ever the non-dual God. He can only be known as All Pervading from the perspectives of sensual perceptions of ignorant Jivas. Non-Dual God has never been and never will be non non dual. Om Namah Shivaya

Apt.

The following were your original comments: Do you not understand what you write??

Namaste Sarva, I see that you have replaced your original post with some art of the poster variety. Thanks

Namaste sarva, No. That is not how an advaitin sees everything. A realised Advaitin knows the Universe as divine Purusha and not as you and me. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> How can that which perishes be real in ultimate terms? Advaitins merely ask us to abide by that which is always real -- that is God. Moreover, I cannot comprehend how Tattva, which means Thatness perish? How can God's true nature perish, unless there is a mistake in ascribing something else (such as ascribing divisiblity to Atman, which is ever indivisible) as the true nature. It is the mistake of seeing the Tattva as different and separate from Tat. Please do not be hurried. Om

Namaste bija, Frankly speaking, I did not expect such strong rejoinders/queries. You are welcome. Regards. Answers to your four questions follow. Sanatana dharma teaches manana after sharvana, so hearing is the first step towards re-kindling of what always is there as the Hridaya. On deep manana, here the understanding is that others are not independent of this. More explicitly, the image of others is not independent of the image of "I". When the "I" is known as from the absolute and Shiva Himself, then all is Shiva -- the Good one. My Guru has taught that only freedom that an ego has in this world is abidance in God and sankirtan is definitely a valid and excellent way to abide in God. For the fourth question, the answer is above: Abidance in God. Rest automatically falls in place. Regards Om Namah Shivaya

Namaste bija, That is a nice knowledge. Allow me to add that once the subject is known, then there is no need to preach. Regards Om

Dear Bhakta, 'Nobel-Peace-Prise', boefide self-rightrous ' , 'recognisance': Wow, What's all these words? Do you have your nerves in control? It is already known that you do know everything, so you do not have to dilute this by self claiming: and WE know all about it [except for unsuspecting neophytes]. By the way, if you think that Rascal is a proper civil word then I have nothing to say. Regards

Namaste Bhakta, Thank you for 'issueing wee bits of revelatory-sastric references'. I will wait for the full revelation from your highness. It appears that you are privy to Godhead, Uttama-Parusha-pushan-rupa. Nice. Om

Namaste Sarva, I am wondering, why he did not lift West Bengal out of the hell? I am inclined to say that a person who uses such profanity as language will lead you deeper into that dark hell faster. (And such colourful bhaktas too, who express glee while posting the profanities, spread by the master, freely on the internet). Om

Bhakta, After reading through your seemingly masterful;) responses (which actually reveal 'I know all' pomposity) to Lord Shiva bhaktas, I feel that you are not doing full justice to Swami Prabhupada. Can't you support your contentions from some valid scripture to validate your purports? C'mon. You should be able to do it -- . C'mon. If you cannot do it, then accept that. Om

Namaskar Thanks for the effort. Now please search another term 'anadimat'. anadiMatparam can be parsed as anadimat (without beginning) or as matparam. To translate that something controls Param Brahman is actually like saying 'Prabhupada controls Param Brahman, since only Prabhupada can translate so. Similar passage from Svet. Upanishad will throw more light. 4.4 niilaH pataN^go harito lohitaaxa\- staDidgarbha R^itavaH samudraaH . </PRE> anaadimat.h tva.n vibhutvena vartase </PRE> yato jaataani bhuvanaani vishvaa .. 4.. 4.4 . Thou art the dark-blue bee, thou art the green parrot with red eyes, thou art the thunder-cloud, the seasons, the seas. THOU ART WITHOUT BEGINNING, because thou art infinite, thou from whom all worlds are born. ---------------------------- 'Param Brahman under my control' is entertainment. Om<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p>

Namaskar, Nicely said. Shiva is the substratum, where there is no dvittiya. Shivoadvaitaatma. ONE who never slumbers. Om