Maitreya

ex? For his sake I hope he didn't whine about it.

What use in calling myself a Christian, Vaisnava, Muslim or anything else unless I am ready to renounce the conceptions of this world?

If I do accept these labels upon myself as a another designation of this world then the term so-called can rightly be applied to me.

Luke 14.26 Jesus speaking:

"If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother,wife and children, brothers and sisiters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

 

Luke 14.33

 

"So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple."

If everyone that claimed to be a discple of Christ or Caitanya and His devotees actually was the world would have a totally different appearance.

Let's not pretend. It doesn't help us.Most of us are so-called followers.We are improving and progressing towards the ideal but we may have a long ways to go.Let our lives as a whole declare our faith and not just our lips or the button on our lapels.Christ never called Himself a Christian and neither did His followers.Outsiders called them Christians when they saw how their lives were resembling Christ.

From The American Heritage Dictionary:

Christian- manifesting the qualities or spirit of Christ,also one who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.

MC

So for the go-kharas, these two-handed and two hands, two legs, go-kharas, for them this Krsna consciousness movement is being pushed on. So that the go-kharas may kindly come and hear Bhagavad-gétä and see how the Deity is being worshiped, how Kåñëa is recognized as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. By seeing only, by sitting only, by hearing only, they’ll come. This is the chance. It is not idol worship, nonsensical. It is worshiping the Supreme Personality of Godhead personally. But one has to learn the art and the science about it. Therefore we are opening all over the world different centers so that these go-kharas can take advantage of this movement.

Otherwise why in this old age...? What is the use of fighting with Mr. Nair and take this land? Because we are anxious to open centers; people, the go-khara people may come and take advantage of it. That is our mission. We don’t want that they remain go-kharas and lose the chance of this human body. Our mission is very big. The best welfare work.SP Bg lecture Bombay Oct. 25 1973

Nair wanted to contest and cheat Krishna but Krishna is the greatest game player.He simply reclaimed his life air.Check mate.

MC

[This message has been edited by Maitreya (edited 06-17-2001).]

Originally posted by shvu:

What does so-called mean?

 

shvu, so-called means means taking on an appearance of following without really doing it internally.We have a tendency to try and have it both ways.To remain enjoyers of the material delights and at the same time try to claim eternal status in the Kingdom of God on the back of Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Jesus said, "pick up your cross and follow me".That part we convieniently forget.Not all do this, they are the Christians, the followers of Christ.To them I offer my obeisances.

Jesus's message was salvation in very clear terms. He spoke about heaven, hell, judgement day and forgiveness. The "so-called" christians have been following this message right from the beginning.

 

Jesus's message was to do the will of the Father.That is beyond mere salvation from sinful reaction.Read the book of John again shvu.It is acintya bhedabheda through and through.

 

You have Sankara, please do not impose your impersonalist views onto Christ or Krishna.It is impolite.

Maitreya, the following is generic and for all,

 

The concept of Bhakti in any old text is clearly a way to Moksha [salvation]. It is one of the three classical paths along with Jnana and Karma. The BG too clearly shows Bhakti as a means to attain liberation only. Nowhere does it say that there is something "above" Moksha and that is what "true" Bhakti is, as falsely concocted by some people. These so-called gurus came up with a pack of lies, and unfortunately a lot of people who lacked schooling in the basics of Hinduism have fallen prey for their sweet-talk. The only good point is that it makes no difference.

 

I simply reject your impersonalist interpreation.I won't convince you nor you me.

Some may wonder how one can be so blunt. No problems here because these people [whom I was referring to] do not think twice about calling Advaitins as impersonalists, christians as so-called christians, etc. Thus it is my belief that, they will not take offense when others point out their own short-comings. With a true sportive Vaishnava attitude, they will receive pleasure and pain equanimously.

 

I personaly take no offense as a so-called Christian[vaisnava] myself.But when you aim that term at my teachers I do, even though they don't.

 

I salute them.

 

Cheers

Really?Even as you call them liars?

MC

 

 

Yes and Jesus had Judas.And a great list of fanatics who have done horrors in his name after that.

Muhummad has scores of people even today bombing in his name[see the world review forum].

What world teacher doesn't have such people commiting atrocities while disquised as their followers?

Fly or the bee,which one is me?

YS MC

Mr.Nair was fortunate that the devotee thought of him at all.There he was trying to cheat the progressive movement of Lord Caitanya and he was checked by Krishna from committing further insults.He was shown mercy.

Afterall death is certain in any case.

The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: O son of Pandu, he who does not hate illumination, attachment and delusion when they are present or long for them when they disappear; who is unwavering and undisturbed through all these reactions of the material qualities, remaining neutral and transcendental, knowing that the modes alone are active; who is situated in the self and regards alike happiness and distress; who looks upon a lump of earth, a stone and a piece of gold with an equal eye; who is equal toward the desirable and the undesirable; who is steady, situated equally well in praise and blame, honor and dishonor; who treats alike both friend and enemy; and who has renounced all material activities—such a person is said to have transcended the modes of nature.Bhagavad-Gita 14.22-24

So Einstein is correct, in that our problem is identifying with the actions and reactions of our material forms.

I wonder how clear he was on the nature of the one who is falsley identifying.

Originally posted by Dharma:

It seems to me that the message of Christ was moksha-liberation from the cycle of births and deaths. Perhaps because the framework of the religion of that region did not allow for mukti.

Dharma,

I am finding that the message of Christ is Bhakti and not salvation.He taught and exemplified Bhakti only."Not my will but Thy will be done".100% service in love.

The so-called Christians of today are mostly salvationists.Of course all of us that are stuck in the modes are in some degree desiring salvation even though philosophically we may be able to conceptualize past it.Presently I see myself as suffering and want it to end so I can't take a superior position to them.

YS MC

shvu,

I understand that would be your definition of a vaisnava as you are coming from an impersonalistic perspective.

Here is where I get my definition.

From Vaisnavism by Thakur Bhaktivinode:

 

REAL VAISHNAVISM: The word 'Vaishnavism' indicates the normal,eternal and natural condition, function and devotional characteristics of all individual souls in relation to Vishnu, the Supreme, the All-pervading Soul.

So this is the definition I will stick with.

Satyaraja, I can't understand what you are saying in your post.Sorry.You seem to be saying that their is no distiction between Krishna and His effulgence.I see oneness and distinction.

Perhaps shvu had won you over to his side afterall.

Hare Krishna

MC

Jesus said: "In our Fathers' Kingdom there are many mansions.."

edit:

Whoops. Forgot the word Kingdom first time.

One God many names.

[This message has been edited by Maitreya (edited 06-13-2001).]

Originally posted by kailasa:

 

The devoted Lord Caytanya travel and on Vaikuntha to preach. They strengthen dasya race Vaikuntha repeatedly.

 

 

kailasa,

I find this very interesting.Are you saying that Lord Caitanya or His devotees travel in Vaikuntha to increase the realizations of the residents there to more intimate levels?

Originally posted by talasiga:

1.1 Brahman is not a place. The soul does not begin its journey "from Brahman". The soul itself is qualitatively of Brahman - "aham brahmasmi".

 

talasiga, thanks for your response.You said:"Brahman is not a place".I think I know what you mean,I wasn't trying to localize the all pervading.We could also say all places are Brahman.

 

Please consider the following statements from Srila Prabhupada's purports concerning jiva and the brahmajyoti.

 

 

 

So it is clear that jiva's ARE generated from the Brahman.Of course jiva's are brahman in nature.

 

 

1.2 There is no Brahman independent of Krishna. Brahman is a state of being in conscious relationship with Krishna (noting there are different types and levels of relationship).

 

No thing or no one is independent of Krishna.What of the impersonalists merging into the Brahman, sayujya?Are they conscious of their relationship?

 

2 Your question appears to be predicated on some nexus between Vaikuntha and Krishnaloka. Well, did Radha evolve from Vaikuntha or is she always in Vindiraban? Even before Krishna came to Vindiraban Radha was already there. Or is there some argument that immediately before Her association with the Lord in Vindiraban She must have been in Vaikuntha according to some heirarchical progression from Vaikuntha to Vindiraban? The concept of Radha in Vaikuntha seems most repugnant as well as the idea that Vaikuntha is a progressive stepping stone to Vindiraban.

 

There is a connection between Krishnaloka and Vaikuntha, they are on the absolute plane.There is variety also.

 

Why bring Radha into this?She is not jiva shakti.

If one chooses to do so, I feel that these curious conundrums may be avoided by leaving consideration of Vaikuntha to the Vaishnavas and focussing on the feet of the Devotee of Krishna.

 

"I feel"Yes we may have so many feelings but what are they based on is the question?

So you are sugesting that one should not be inquisitive about the spiritual world unless he is a Vaisnava?I disagree.It is by cultivating intense interest and eagerness to know this subject matter from the Vaisnavas that one becomes a Vaisnava.

 

Yes it is good to focus on the feet of the Vaisnava.But they are also writing volumns of books on this subject matter and I take it from that they want us to read those books and discuss them.

 

There are many great Vaishnava devotees of Krishna AND there are also many great Devotees of Krishna who would not necessarily consider themselves Vaishnavas.

 

Vaisnava refers to an awakened active soul who is cognizant of his own position in relation to the Supreme Absolute.It is not a name for another religious 'faith'that one can join and quit.

 

We can see how the jiva travels in the material world through samsara as he tries to enjoy.

 

Not all jivas enter the material cloud.

 

My question just goes to the opposite direction concerning how the jiva becomes attracted to Krishna from the Brahman and Vaikuntha loka.

 

Just curious.

 

Hare Krishna

YS MC

 

Any Hare Krishna's in France that feel threatened?Let us here from you.

Are there no torn clothes lying on the common road? Do the trees, which exist for maintaining others, no longer give alms in charity? Do the rivers, being dried up, no longer supply water to the thirsty? Are the caves of the mountains now closed, or, above all, does the Almighty Lord not protect the fully surrendered souls? Why then do the learned sages go to flatter those who are intoxicated by hard-earned wealth? Srimad Bhagavatam 2.2.5

I was also surprised.We all can disagree from time to time and still keep it civil.

Bhaja Sri Krishna Caitanya Prabhu Nityananda

Jaya Advaita, Gadadhar,Srivasadi Gaura Bhakta Vrinda

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare

Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

That's a good one alfa1.I don't know the first thing about science.Just the idea of Einstein's theory on relativity being relative.

MC

That was a very powerful story Gauracandra.

I am very glad to learn that Lord Jesus Christ has approved our activities. Perhaps you have marked it in my preaching work that I love Lord Jesus Christ as good as Krishna; because He rendered the greatest service to Krishna according to time circumstances and society in which He appreared. letter SF April 7 1967

Satyaraja how are we to take that story?I am left with the picture of two people in Vaikuntha who don't want to be there.How can that be?

Somewhere along the trip there must be a change of heart.

Of course, what ever is gained in devotional service is never lost.

I don't mean to be offensive to the Padma Purana, so please help me understand this story in a fuller way.

Thanks MC

I mean why preach and try to attract people to KC? Why not just sprinkle everyone with Yamuna water whether they like it or not and send them home?

[This message has been edited by Maitreya (edited 06-12-2001).]

I brought this up in another forum and got an angry response.

Some Christians think that by undergoing a baptismal rite that they are now secure in their spiritual fate.

Similar to that some think that undergoing a fire sacrifice guarantees them eternal discipleship staus irregardless of what they do.

The difference may be reincarnation is added.So in this scenario the spiritual master has to keep coming to back to find you irregardless.Birth after birth.

We forget the two way nature of the realationship.And that the purpose is to help us develop a change of heart at the most core level.A process that the disciple must keep sincerely engaging in.

The Christians are most unclear on what 'saved' is.Saved from what we ask?Saved from hell they answer.Well, hell is desiring apart from Krishna's[God's] desire.So we must be saved from our very core.

It's the serving two masters dilemna.Can't work.

YS MC

Originally posted by rand0M aXiS:

Timmy paid the price for his crime. When will the Butcher of Waco (Janet Reno)?

That butcherer of Waco has the nerve to consider running for Governer of Florida.No shama, no conscience.

Hey randOM I hear Horiuchi[sp], that demon FBI murderer may have to stand trial in Idaho.Any info?

There may some useful info at this link.

http://www.ivu.org/history/east/buddha.html

MC

I am pretty much in agreement from all the posts so far.

I strongly support the voucher system and any othe rproposal to decentralize the educational system.

Another point we all know is that the main problem with our educational system is they don't give knowledge, as in sambandha jnana.In fact to do so in a public school is actually against the law.a failure from the start.

YS MC

Audarya lila, but from the angle of the States responsibility what should be the law?

I see the death penalty as having a compassionate component even if those administering it don't.Less to suffer for next time around.

Your point of Jagai and Madhai is well taken.Same with Paul from the Bible.He was a Jewish zealot that went around killing Christians until Jesus confront him with his mercy on the road one day.But those are extraordinary cases aren't they?

"Among all means of surpressing lawlessness I am punishment..."Bg 10.38

What about a society where the citizens have to bar the windows of their homes for fear of the criminals?

How do we balance mercy and justice?

YS MC

Today in the USA the mass murder Timothy McVeigh was executed for his bombing of a Federal building and killing 168 people in 1965.

Tim McVeigh had apparantly been driven mad by becoming disillusioned by witnessing the atrocities of the American Government.

Some people here and many in Europe condemn his execution by lethal injection as a barbaric act.

I support the death penalty myself and think it should be used far more liberaly.Child rapers for example.

What do you think?In India is the death penalty still enforced?What do Indians think of this?

YS MC