muralidhar_das

Fine theist, forget it.

Amazing. In the inner city I saw a shop called "sex-o-rama". The people there are probably saying the name of the Lord constantly. They may pick up the phone and say "this is Sex-o-Rama" No need for a Guru, they have God's association directly in the form of His Divine Name. I have Bhaktirasamrtasindhu open on the desk in front of me, opened at the page where it discusses diksa. Should I spend time typing what is written there? Who cares about what Srila Rupa Goswami says? According to Sri Rupa, the type of bhakti known as "vaidhi-bhakti" is bhakti that is based upon the statements of the scriptures. Vaidhi Bhakti, properly performed, can take you to Vaikuntha or Dvaraka Leela of Krishna, but only raganuga bhakti can take you to the Vraja Leela. Where do you get this Raganuga Bhakti? Can you get it from reading books. Hmmm... the books say you cannot get it from books!

My aunt Edda went to NZ and married, hence Tim and Neil. No I never met them but when I was a little kid we used to hear about them from time to time. There was trouble in the family because they were all ethnic Germans - my Grandmother was born in Fiji, after the British took over the German colony of Samoa and deported the Germans. Most of the family ended up in Sydney. In homes of my relatives I used to see pictures of the islands like this picture I posted. New Zealand used to look like that too, once upon a time. Tim and Neil are supposed to be really nice guys, but they move in a different circle from me. Music, bands, movie star girl friends, that sort of life. I never bothered trying to contact them, but I really do like some of their songs.

Do the scriptures mention any devotees who attained Prema Bhakti without having had any "face to face" instruction from advanced Vaishnavas? I can't think of any.

<!--[endif]-->I don't really know about that. I guess by Srila Prabhupada's grace everyone in the West has heard of the name of Krishna, but sadly we don't see everyone changing into vegetarians and devotees overnight.

KB are you saying people don't need "second" initiation (gayatri). Is that what you are saying?

When we get diksa (mantra initiation) we get the proper mantras enabling us to do Archana (deity worship) properly. By this I mean what ISKCON calls "gayatri" initiation and not Harinama. Brahma worshipped the Deity through meditation, chanting the diksa mantra he had received in his right ear through Diksa, and Brahma achieved complete success. Anyone can chant Harinama and achieve success in devotional life - but it may take a long time. Yet if we get diksa (gayatri, the sound that comes from the flute song played by Murali Mohana) then we can progress quickly through to the stage of anartha-nivritti where we become clean from the dasa-nama-aparadha, the ten offences that disturb a neophyte when he is chanting Sri Hari-Nama.

Pradyumna Prabhu: One question I had for a long time. I inquired, I was talking with Babaji Maharaj, Krsnadas Babaji Maharaj and also Bon Maharaj, they were saying that in the beginning Gaudiya Math, there was some very simple life and there was much stress on the preaching and everything. They said but later, as there was money and more facility, there were some problems arising from that. Srila Sridhar Maharaj: Of course, this is natural. You see Prabhupad gave explanation of the same. We take money from the visayi, worldly men, and with the money the poison also comes to be digested. So some trouble will come. Pradyumna Prabhu: If we take money from people there is poison? Srila Sridhar Maharaj: Of course. That poison will be minimized by the handling of the sadhu. Visaya bisa, one who can digest poison, taking money from visaya, but one who can digest it, he utilizes it, poison is also medicine. You see you can utilize the poison as medicine, his divine agent. Pradyumna Prabhu: So visaya is poison but it can also be utilized as medicine. Srila Sridhar Maharaj: So one who can utilize the poison as nectar in medicine, otherwise it will kill the person who is taking the sampati or the visayi. Understand? Visaya visa. There with visa the energy, sampati means energy, the energy coming and carrying the mentality of the owner. That is there. Pradyumna Prabhu: In the same way I came in the beginning when Srila Prabhupad started in America, and now I see somethings are here now which were not there then. Some things which are not so good, so I am just comparing, how to always, naturally this will come as one gets bigger and bigger, more money comes, more buildings come. And many different people are attracted. Srila Sridhar Maharaj: Enchanted by money and begins to make trade. Making money, begins to and his soul is dead and the activity of the worldly men begins. By amassing money the real principle is lost. If the adhikari is not a genuine one, then he is carried away by the money towards exploiting world. Kamani kancana. Mahaprabhu did not like to see Prataparudra because he was visayi. Sannyasa visayinan asau yahi ganca ta hanta hanta visa bhaka nacata sadhu. More than swallowing the poison. For a sannyasi, it is more dangerous to see the king that is the embodiment of visaya, the embodiment of monetary wealth, in the center of the management of the material prosperity, the king, and the visayi, josi means to tends to enjoyment, to come in connection with these two is to swallow poison, Mahaprabhu says. So one must be careful. This is of course meant for the single bhajan, that who are in the company, sadhu-sanga and the highest type of sadhu on the head, by his, to obey him, to discharge the duties given by the mahatma, and they can have clothes and things to give to the feet of their mahatma. They are agents, near agent. You see once at Krsna janmastami, all the preachers were taken back from the compass of the country and they were concentrated to work in Calcutta, from door to door they used to have to go for collecting bhiksa. And Bon Maharaja in a party with one or two brahmacaris, went to a part of Calcutta for collection. He asked those gentlemen, please give me the address of a few good benevolent gentlemen to whom we can approach and we get some money for our purpose. Those gentlemen showed, "just go to that house, there you will find someone." And that was the house of a prostitute. Bon Maharaja went in good faith and pushed on the door, door was open, so lady came, Oh you are sadhu, what do you want from me. And that person who asked Bon Maharaj to go to that house, he was laughing there. And Bon Maharaja gave the lady the letter for invitation, "we have got such and such festival, we want you to come, and we will be happy to get some contribution from you". Whether the lady gave something or didn't give I don't know. And Bon Maharaj came back, these people were laughing and Bon Maharaj came to Prabhupad, and said "Prabhupad, I went to go for collection. And it happened that these rogues just guided me to the prostitute's house. I won't go out for any collections." Then Prabhupada delivered a lecture. "There are many of you who has left their own property, but still I send them out for collection. Do you think that I do it wrongly? No. The visayi always wants to entrap us within their business. But everything should be utilized, we must learn to utilize everything and anything for the service of Krsna. Then only we are saved. Otherwise if we leave, give it away, it is left there, and when it will get any chance they will come to bite me. So whatever comes to us, we should deal with them in such a way, that anywhere I shall come across anything that would rather give some impression about remember Krsna, utilize me for this particular service for Krsna. All friendly? The left there will be enemies. But they should all be made friends. They will help me remind me, excite me in the service of Krsna. We must have such adjustment in this world. So nothing should be left off. Do you follow? Nirbandha krsna sambandhe yuktam vairagyam ucyate. Sa pancitayah buddah hari sambandhi vastunah mumuksubhi parityajya vairagyam. That is a bogus vairagya. Artificial vairagya. This is full vairagya. To leave everything, all non Krsna, non Krsna. And proper vairagya, to see everything in the service of Krsna, nirbandha krsna sambandhe.

You spend your life and energy attacking Muslims and "liberals" and think this is devotional service. Then when you don't get the material rewards you expected to get in your material life you say, "Krishna is a lie, Krishna doesn't answer my prayers".

This reminds me of a song my cousin Neil wrote Now I'm towing my car, there's a hole in the roof My possessions are causing me suspicion but there's no proof In the paper today tales of war and of waste But you turn right over to the T.V. page Now I'm walking again to the beat of a drum And I'm counting the steps to the door of your heart Only shadows ahead barely clearing the roof Get to know the feeling of liberation and relief Hey now, hey now Don't dream it's over Hey now, hey now When the world comes in They come, they come To build a wall between us Don't ever let them win

Srila Govinda Maharaj said that when a genuine Guru accepts a person as his disciple, with or without any mantra, that is the when the Guru-disciple relationship begins. Everything else is ritual.

Srila Sridhar Maharaj approved of devotees attending the Ratha Yatra in Puri and he also appreciated that in Nabadwip it was appropriate to have a Ratha-yatra of Sri Gauranga, as conceived by Thakura Bhaktivinode. Srila Sridhar Maharaj spoke again and again about the Ratha Yatra pastimes in Puri that Sri Chaitanyadeva participated in. If you want to know what Srila Sridhar Maharaj's ideas about Ratha-yatra are, first of all it is necessary to carefully study all the incidents mentioned in Chaitanya Charitamrta. Now, since most people on this forum have not CAREFULLY and I mean CAREFULLY studied those pastimes, it is not something that people should debate on this Audarya Debates Forum. Srila Sridhar Maharaj openly stated that he had a different point of view from most of his Godbrothers. The situation is not dissimilar to the "debate" between Srivasa Pandit and Svarupa Damodara after the Ratha-yatra, as you can read about CC Madhya 14 It is absurd to say that Srila Sridhar Maharaj and other Gaudiya Math Acharyas were all teaching the same lessons. Different classrooms, different folks, different discussions. That is how it is.

Getting diksa initiation is non-essential Getting Hari-nama from a genuine Vaishnava is essential.

ANYWHERE outside of Navadvip!?!?!?!?!?!?! Surely you mean to say something diifferent frrom what you wrote.

If some non-devotee becomes a devotee through the preaching of devotees of Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti, they will naturally have greater respect for the members of Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti than for other groups of Vaishnavas, at least in the kanistha stage. A more advanced devotee will respect everyone, even Ramchandra Puri. Same goes if you first of all join ISKCON, or Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math. Most of the problems between different Sanghas of devotees arise when members of one group try to get people to leave the society they are currently in and become members of a different society. Why is it that Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math devotees and the leaders of ISKCON are not fighting? Because Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math devotees do not try and get people to leave ISKCON. Or Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti. In the 1980's some people from ISKCON joined Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math and in the 1980's sometimes there was conflict. But that was 20 years ago and these days you find that on Govinda Maharaj's birthday Swami Jayapataka is sending 25 birthday cakes to Nabadwip. Live and let live.

lighten up guys

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I've always felt this way. I found what I was searching for at Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math but that Math is not for everyone. Other people find their fulfilment in other places such as Radha-kunda, Tirupati, Varanasi, Puri etc. I've been to Jagannatha's ratha yatra festival twice with Srila Govinda Maharaj and then I found that he didn't attend the ratha rope-pulling festival. Only, when Jagannatha arrived at the Gundica, the gates of Vrindaban, which is the place where the Brajabashis came to meet with Lord Krishna, only there did Srila Govinda Maharaj come to have darshan of Jagannatha. Some people enjoy seeing God riding on a big chariot but my Guru Maharaj has a different feeling when he sees a chariot. Srila Govinda Maharaj, in his own way, then decides to go to the place where Guru Maharaj is doing service, but other people who took initiation from Srila Sridhar Maharaj may go to other destinations. It is all because of freedom and degrees of faith.

Dear Devotees, Take a close look at Brhadbhagvatamrtam because that book explains how to reconcile all these issues of "different groups". The seeker of truth, Gopakumara, goes from place to place and what he finds is that in different sanghas the local devotees have different ideals. Associates of Narayan in Vaikuntha criticize Gopakumara for singing Krishna's names and tell him to worship Narayana. In siddha-loka the devotees of Visnu say, "don't go searching for Krishna outside yourself, he is in your heart". And in Jagannatha Puri the devotees also say and do things that Gopakumara is not happy about. When you become dissatisfied then that is a good thing - you move on. The fact is, each person walks his own path and a real Guru will open your eyes to the fact that what we believe today is going to be replaced by new realizations we will have tomorrow. Syamananda Thakura was initiated by Hridaya Chaitanya Prabhu, but his feelings of devotion were different from his Guru's feelings of sakhya-rasa and he left the mode of bhajan taught to him by his diksa guru and transformed into a servant of other devotees serving in the transcendental play of madhurya-rasa. Everyone needs good association to help us go forward. I have full faith in Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaj because Srila Sridhar Maharaj personally told me to serve him, "the suddha bhakta". But if you never got told that then what does this instruction mean for you? Nothing, probably. Faith is the only way to approach the Lord, and what Faith has revealed to me is different from what the Goddess of Faith reveals to other persons.

Happy thoughts make me happy.

Pradyumna swami teaches that gopas and gopis can fall from Goloka: http://groups.google.com.aupradumyaswami/topics ============= <table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr><td class="blurb_star" valign="top" width="18"> </td> <td> Even the cowherd boys can fall from Goloka-Vrndavana if the forget Krishna </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td class="padt2"> THE SECRET BOOK OF ORIGINS. QUANTUM PHYSICS OR THE SCIENCE OF POSSIBILITIES. UNDERSTANDING THE UNIVERSAL CREATION. “The perpetual Kingdom of Radha and Krishna (above in the red lotus flower and unlimited expansions of Vishnu and Lakshmi in the... <nobr>more »</nobr> </td></tr></tbody> </table>

When I read Ravindra Swarup's article I felt it was the best thing I've ever read, written by an ISKCON man. Finally, a sensible man speaks the plain facts. Srila Prabhupada DID change his thinking on many issues. Look at his ambivalent statements about varnashrama, his godbrothers, fall of the jiva, americans on the moon, etc. etc. Trial and error, that is what he was doing. He tried different things and the things that worked he encouraged people to practice. What works: street sankirtan; book distribution; archana; promoting vegetarianism; What doesn't work: varnashrama; making homosexuals into sannyasis; skam-kirtan; making money from selling paraphenalia; etc. etc.

Go to http://www.asitis.com/13/index.html

This description of the demons as "representative" of various evil spiritual forces is given in Sri Krishna Samhita and in Sri Chaitanya Siksamrtam as well. In "Bhagavat Samplap" by Bhaktivinode Thakur's disciple, Sri Bhakti Pradip Tirtha, he also discusses about how the demons are representing "evil tendencies". Srila Sridhar Maharaj told me that Sri Chaitanya Siksamrtam is a more suitable book for Westerners than Jaiva Dharma because it is more "scientific". Guru Maharaj told me to read Sri Chaitanya Siksamrtam.

In a letter to Sadananda, Srila Saraswati Thakura says: When he was in London, Sadananda took hari-nama initiation. Bon Maharaja gave him hari-nama, in his capacity of being a ritvik acharya (representative of Srila Saraswati Thakura).

I entirely agree with what you say. One thing that I have learned from reading Sri Krishna Chaitanya by Professor Sanyal is that it is a mistake to think of Krishna's pastimes that are described in the Bhagavatam as history. Professor Sanyal makes the point that when the Avatara descends he appears in order to engage in Leela, and his Leela is transcendental. The people who see him have Darshan because they are evolved beings who can "realize God directly". When they have the Lord Avatar's darshan their experiences are not "material" and what they see is not "history". The Bhagavatam then is a book detailing the progressive realizations of sages who are having darshan of the Leela of Bhagavan. If we read the Bhagavatam and meditate on it, then if we have faith in Krishna we find he will be born as a reality within the world of our consciousness. Just after he is born, inevitably I will find that a person who I respect like my mother may try and kill my spiritual conception (the word conception is related to pregnancy) and because I respect that mother/father/guru/teacher I will face great distress. But Krishna kills the false advisor (Putana/Guru) and attracts me with his beauty. After this, reading the Bhagavatam even more, I find that if I have faith in Krishna I don't have to worry about "ghosts" and black cats inauspicious omens that are in front of me. Krishna kills my superstitious fears, which are symbolized by Sakatasura. In this way, my reading of the Bhagavatam brings me towards the point where I can "realize God directly" in my own life. This is the teaching of Thakur Bhaktivinode, in Sri Chaitanya Siksamrtam 6.5