muralidhar_das

Quote: <table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Thakura Bhaktivinoda "One who lives in Kuruksetra, which is south of the Sarasvati River and north of the Drsadvati River, lives in heaven." By discussing the meaning of the name "Brahmavarta" it is assumed that the Aryans came from another country to reside therein. We cannot ascertain exactly where they came from, but it is believed that they came from some northwest country. In the description of Devi's tirtha near Kashmir in the Mahabharata (Vana-parva 82.102) it is stated: </td> </tr> </tbody></table> What I feel is that it doesn't matter one way or the other whether there was an Aryan invasion. Bhaktivinode Thakura has given his opinion that maybe something like that happened. Devotees who want to fight against science are "wild goose chasing" in my opinion. Frankly I don't care if Hanuman etc were men or monkeys. And in Sri Krishna Samhita we find Bhaktivinode Thakura saying the "descent of the Ganges" story of King Bhagirathi represents not the bringing of the Ganges to the sea but the bringing of the Aryan culture from "Aryavarta" (uttara pradhesh) to the sea in Bengal. This, and many other things Bhaktivinode Thakura says in Sri Krishna Samhita, are not "articles of faith" for me. What these things do for me is make me realize that I don't need to worry one way or the other whether scientific or "fundamentalist" ideas are the right ideas. Bhaktivinode Thakur has presented a way of thinking about history and science which makes those topics separate from spirituality. He goes on to talk about spirituality in great depth in Sri Krishna Samhita. <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

Kula Prabhu don't get me wrong either. I feel exactly the same way. Exactly. What I find wonderful is that Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur shows us it is OK to question things that other people say cannot be questioned. He shows us it is OK if we start wondering and seeking answers when the things in shastra seem perplexing. As in the case that Theist mentioned where he said about the 4 billion bodyguards. Bhaktivinode Thakur said himself that his speculations were just that. So if we find ourselves speculating some times then we don't have to feel that we are "evil".

I feel he is a sage. The Veda rishis were sages. Rupa-Sanatana were sages. The Vedas come from sages. Personally I have no problem with what he said and indeed I feel it is preferable to follow Bhaktivinoda Thakura's lead than to follow a mutterer of mantras whose only attainment in life is book-knowledge. Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur's vision of Mayapura, his vision where he saw the Devas discussing verses 9.30/31 and his desire to worship Radharani at Kurukshetra, these things and more attract me to him.

According to the Mahabharata, Garuda is the prototype of all birds and he is the half brother of the first snakes such as Vasuki. Garuda had six sons and from them the birds of this world have evolved. Science also says that birds and reptiles are related species.

That's fine Prabhu It is worth checking out the whole of the Sri Krishna Samhita so you can get a good idea about what Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur was thinking. I have put the whole of the book online here: SriKrishnaSamhita Here is some more interesting info from Sri Krishna Samhita: Bhaktivinoda Thakura suggests that the Aryans came to India from some country to the North West.

In Sri Krishna Samhita... Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura published Sri Krishna Samhita twice and gave it to his disciples to read and study. When the first print was "sold out" it was reprinted. And since the 1930's the book has been reprinted again and again by various Maths in Bengal. I can understand that someone may feel uncomfortable about some of the things said in Sri Krishna Samhita. I myself was astonished by some of these things, and moreover by statements in the Bhagavat lecture about how the hells in Srimad Bhagavatam are just stories that were invented to keep the common people well behaved. So I asked Srila Sridhar Maharaj about this and he was quite definite; he supported the things said in Sri Krishna Samhita and even urged me to study it. What I understand from all this is that Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur was not trying to establish a new modernist or "scientific" view of the scriptures, a new alternative way of viewing the scriptures, but that he was drawing our attention to the fact that the scripures were written by (spiritual) men and that we need to go beyond the literal meanings of things and "awaken". We need to understand reality. If devotees openly discuss topics such as the fact that in Bhagavata it says the moon is further away from earth than the sun, this is not heresy. And as far as the evidence that Kimpurushas were a separate race of beings living in South India, where is the archeological evidence for this? The city of Dvaraka is discovered and being excavated, just like the city of Troy was discovered, or more recently the tomb of Herod in Palestine. I see no harm in allowing our religion to be examined by science and reason. The evidence that Sri Chaitanya really existed is irrefutable. And for me, nothing else really matters. Krishna lives in the realm of "Super-Consciousness"and Sri Chaitanya showed the way to enter that plane of existence. When Krishna was living in this world people believed in magic and some had magic powers. But nowadays you cannot find any people with mystic powers, even if you offer $1million to them as a prize if anyone who can do supernatural tricks. People can walk on fire and I have no doubt that some men in the past could use mantras to create "brahmastra" forces and so forth, but nobody can do that now. The city of Hastinapura has been excavated and science can tell us what the people ate and how tall they were. If I find out that people in India were six feet tall and not 40 feet tall, does that disprove the proposition that Krishna appears on earth again and again (yada yada hi dharmasya, Gita 4.7)? The poetry of the Bhagavatam tells the story of Krishna in an artistic way. I wouldn't want it to be told any other way, since Mahaprabhu found great nectar in Bhagavatam and gave that nectar to others. But is Bhagavatam a book about "history"? Not for me. It is a book that tells us how to find God. To me it seems sad that some devotees think science and reason are opposed to Krishna concsiousness. We all use medicine when we get dysentry in India, we use cars and computers, so does it make sense to say science is BAD? Not for me.

Brhadaranyaka Upanishad 2.20 As the spider moves along the thread it produces, or as from a fire tiny sparks fly in all directions, even so from this Atman come forth all organs, all worlds, all gods, all beings. Its secret name (Upanishad) is "the Truth of truth." The vital breaths are the truth and their truth is Atman.

Provide the quotes from shastra, then!

Beggar this is what I was trying to say, but it is hard to say that pure mind creates things. We know that pure consciousness produces "chit-abhasa" and that this leads to ahankara, buddhi, mind and then sky, air, fire etc. This is what I feel happens. There is both evolution of both the physical and mental existence.

Maitreya.... In another time and place.... But here we are, once again. And now let's see how far I can go in telling what I believe to be true before someone sees a "heretic" in me and comes in "for the kill". I personally think that this earth we are walking on was inhabited by creatures that arose from the sea. I also believe that souls in ghost and astral bodies can move "heaven and earth" and that these souls (call them devas or asuras) can descend to earth and walk on this ground I'm walking on. So in other words I think Darwin style evolution is a possiblity but that at the same time a "mind" can descend from a higher state of being and become a ghost in the machine of a crab body or a sea slug body. The minds like these that are at the sea shore are imprisoned in Patala or "hell" and Varahadev comes and defeats the king of these hell-ghosts called Hiranyaksa. Think about the savageness of a shark and try to imagine the savage feeling of these beings. When these savage beasts and the savage eels are churning the ocean with their violence and rage the Lord descends in their field of view so they can see a beautiful alternative to their beastial existence. I feel the story of Varaha is a description about how God manifests in front of beasts and then creates a "beautiful world" that is like an island, a place where a man can live and where the stream of the Ganges can flow. Men descended to this world from "astral" worlds, as far as I can see. This is my own speculation, I admit, but I believe Manu and other men who first inhabited earth emerged from the astral world. I realized when I copy/pasted that talk by Saraswati Thakur it would go over the heads of most devotees. But the point is clear in his words, that he acknowledged a kind of Evolution that is an accommodation of observable facts we can see in nature but that allows for "spiritual" evolution as well. Evolution happens. And I'm seeking to understand how it happens.

According to the Bhagavata, Varahadeva raised the uninhabited earth from the waters of dissolution, and after that life on earth began. In the Laghu-Bhagavatamrta, it says, "Lord Varaha appeared twice in one kalpa (day of Brahma). He appeared during the Svayambhuva-manvantara from Brahma's nostril to rescue the earth, and during the sixth manvantara (Caksusa-manvantara), He appeared to rescue the earth and kill Hiranyaksa." It is seen that in the Bhagavatam, in answer to Vidura's questions, Maitreya Muni has described the pastimes of Lord Varaha in both the Svayambhuva devastation and Caksusa devastation. Maitreya mixed the information about one lila of Varaha together with the information about another lila. The words of Maitreya, and by extension the Bhagavatam, therefore cannot be treated as a source of historical information. Rather the Bhagavatam is poetry that is meant to uplift us to a stage where we have appreciation for the beauty and greatness of the Lord. In the Bhagavatam, therefore, the sages are not presenting a chronological "history" of the universe but rather a spiritual message that can help souls who seeking God. If we want a chronological history of the universe, we need to look somewhere else for that knowledge. Vidura asked: With these sorts of questions as the background, Maitreya narrates the story of the formation of the universe and of the Avatara of Varahadeva. Vidura is asking questions from the viewpoint of someone who sees God as "nirguna" or formless. In answer to this, Maitreya describes God's descent as Mahavishnu and so forth, ultimately coming to the description of Varahadeva. For people who are accustomed to seeing God as "light" the image of Varaha is a great challenge to their thinking. It is for this reason (according to Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswat in his commentary to Chaitanya Bhagavata) that the Lord incarnates as Varaha. When Sri Nimai Pandita (Gauranga, Sri Chaitanya) first started exhibiting himself as Visnu, the first manifestation he showed was that he is Varaha. This shocked the devotees in Nabadwip. The form of God as Varaha is a shocking sight. It awakens within us the realization that He can play his Leela in ways that we never imagined. Such is the greatness of Bhagavan. In the discussion below Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura explains how different Deities are attractive to beings at different stages of evolution. For those who have just become vertebrate, or in other words who have become animals, the form of God that they appreciate is Varaha. Souls worship a Deity that is suitable for their stage of evolution.

<table> <tbody><tr><td>Canto 7: The Science of God</td><td class="m">Chapter 1: The Supreme Lord Is Equal to Everyone </td></tr></tbody> </table> Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 7.1.35 dehendriyāsu-hīnānāḿ vaikuṇṭha-pura-vāsinām deha-sambandha-sambaddham etad ākhyātum arhasi SYNONYMS deha — of a material body; indriya — material senses; asu — life breath; hīnānām — of those devoid; vaikuṇṭha-pura — of Vaikuṇṭha; vāsinām — of the residents; deha-sambandha — in a material body; sambaddham — bondage; etat — this; ākhyātum arhasi — please describe. TRANSLATION The bodies of the inhabitants of Vaikuṇṭha are completely spiritual, having nothing to do with the material body, senses or life air. Therefore, kindly explain how associates of the Personality of Godhead were cursed to descend in material bodies like ordinary persons. PURPORT This very significant question would be difficult for an ordinary person to answer, but Nārada Muni, being an authority, could answer it. Therefore Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira inquired from him, saying, etad ākhyātum arhasi: "only you can explain the reason." From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Viṣṇu who descend from Vaikuṇṭha do not actually fall. They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord. The Lord comes to this material world through the agency of His internal potency, and similarly, when a devotee or associate of the Lord descends to this material world, he does so through the action of the spiritual energy. Any pastime conducted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead is an arrangement by yogamāyā, not mahāmāyā. Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuṇṭha. Of course, a living entity who desires sāyujya-mukti remains in Kṛṣṇa's Brahman effulgence, which is dependent on Kṛṣṇa's body (brahmaṇo hi pratiṣṭhāham [Bg. 14.27]). Such an impersonalist who takes shelter of the Brahman effulgence must surely fall down. This is stated in the śāstra (Bhāg. 10.2.32): ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninas tvayy asta-bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraḿ padaḿ tataḥ patanty adho 'nādṛta-yuṣmad-ańghrayaḥ "O Lord, the intelligence of those who think themselves liberated but who have no devotion is impure. Even though they rise to the highest point of liberation by dint of severe penances and austerities, they are sure to fall down again into material existence, for they do not take shelter at Your lotus feet." The impersonalists cannot reach the Vaikuṇṭha planets to become associates of the Lord, and therefore, according to their desires, Kṛṣṇa gives them sāyujya-mukti. However, since sāyujya-mukti is partial mukti, they must fall again to this material world. When it is said that the individual soul falls from Brahmaloka, this applies to the impersonalist. From authoritative sources it is learned that Jaya and Vijaya were sent to this material world to fulfill the Lord's desire to fight. The Lord also sometimes wants to fight, but who can fight with the Lord but a very confidential devotee of the Lord? Jaya and Vijaya descended to this world to fulfill the Lord's desire. Therefore in each of their three births — first as Hiraṇyākṣa and Hiraṇyakaśipu, second as Rāvaṇa and Kumbhakarṇa, and third as Śiśupāla and Dantavakra — the Lord personally killed them. In other words, these associates of the Lord, Jaya and Vijaya, descended to the material world to serve the Lord by fulfilling His desire to fight. Otherwise, as Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira says, aśraddheya ivābhāti: the statement that a servant of the Lord could fall from Vaikuṇṭha seems unbelievable. How Jaya and Vijaya came to this material world is explained by Nārada Muni as follows. ------------- KB, the bottom line for me is that Srila Prabhupada taught that nobody would leave Krishna if they ever saw him, because Krishna is incomparably beautiful and loving. Nobody even wants to leave Goloka or Krishna, even when they are dreaming. What Srila Prabhupada said to Madhudvisa about the crow and tal, that was just some advice for Madhu so he should learn that he should not misuse his free will. So for guys like us, Prabhupada wanted to tell a warning story about the danger of misusing your free will. I see Madhudvisa every now and then and he has mellowed with age. I would even say I like him, nowadays. It was all so long ago, and we were all very young. Prabhupada had to focus on giving lessons for wild teenagers and what he taught was very suitable for us, considering the state we were in.

<o:p> </o:p>This picture is not a totally accurate representation of the Reality of the Spiritual Universe. It is a two dimensional representation of the Ultimate Reality that was painted to give a general understanding of the Spiritual World. However, if you were to argue that this is indeed the full reality, the question arises that in this picture you see lots of light and blue "sky" between the golden globes that Visnu deities are within. In fact in this picture perhaps 20% of the area is taken up with this golden and blue sky, which of course is a representation of the brahma-jyoti. According to this statement of Bhagavata, there are more souls in sayujua-mukti than who are engaged in Bhakti: Quote: <table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 6.14.5 muktānām api siddhānāḿ nārāyaṇa-parāyaṇaḥ sudurlabhaḥ praśāntātmā koṭiṣv api mahā-mune TRANSLATION O great sage, among many millions who are liberated and perfect in knowledge of liberation, one may be a devotee of Lord Nārāyaṇa, or Kṛṣṇa. Such devotees, who are fully peaceful, are extremely rare. </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> I appreciate you are trying to remain faithful to what you perceive is the actual teaching of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. But before Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada no acharya ever said that souls in Goloka (nitya siddha souls) fall down into maya and become nitya-baddha souls (eternally bonded in Maya). Moreover I have never seen a statement anywhere in the scriptures saying that souls in Goloka have dreams about the material world. It would be more of a nightmare than a dream, in my opinion. There are 8,400,000 species and most of the time we spend in the material world would be in the bodies of such things as oysters, crabs, bacteria and donkeys. Living a life as a donkey or a camel would hardly be a "dream life" for someone who is normally living in Goloka and having a little nap. You may think that the statements of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada saying the jivas fell from Goloka or Vaikuntha are perfectly true. But since there is nothing in the Vedas to support this notion you should respectfully accept that other people have a right to follow the established teachings of the Goswamis, Bhaktivinoda, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur and other acharyas who agree with this statement of Yudhisthira Maharaj in Srimad Bhagavatam:

Won't it be great if they realize Hee-zul is a person! Next thing, they can get him elected to the European parliament. He will probably have a lot more common sense than most elected representatives of government.

Yes his honesty and sincerity are enlivening. And here is some more of his writings from Sri Krishna Samhita. He explains that the story of the King Bhagiratha taking the Ganges to earth is an allegory for King Bhagiratha taking the "glories" of the Ganges into eastern India (Bengal). And moreover, that Parasurama converted south indian "non-aryans" into Brahmins. The thing is, it is a proven fact that in Bali, Manipura and other places the Aryan culture was assimilated into local culture and local "shamans" were converted into being brahmins. Obviously, people who hold the opinion that a person must be born as an Aryan brahmin would create an UPROAR (to use Lowborn's terminology) when they read this sort of theory presented by Bhaktivinoda. Similarly the ISKCON version of world history and cycles of the ages (yugas) is challenged by the words of Bhaktivinoda, and if you try to give a Sunday lecture about what Bhaktivinoda says in Sri Krishna Samhita about the history of India then that would probably also create an UPROAR. So instead the guest lecturer will tell you stories about how the earth is the centre of the universe and that the americans never went to the moon. Maybe in their next lifetime the pure land Aryans will recognize how evolution is really happening in this world.

Quote: <table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Lowborn That is precisely the problem with certain Bhaktivinoda's pronouncements on the shastra, such as that Hanuman was simply a non-aryan south indian man. </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Please present the actual reference you are refering to. In the Introduction to Sri Krishna Samhita: I talked with Srila Sridhar Maharaj about the things like this in Sri Krishna Samhita and he supported the point of view of Bhaktivinode Thakura completely. I can show you statements of Sri Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur teaching these topics discussed in Sri Krishna Samhita. Take a look at the book Sri Chaitanya's Teachings by Sri Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur and you will find lots of instances where Sri Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur teaches these point presented in Sri Krishna Samhita. As far as fish eating goes... Bhaktivinode Thakura realized it is better to be vegetarian and he became a vegetarian. But Vamsi das Babaji, who Sri Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur regarded as a paramahamsa, he ate fish (Srila Sridhar Maharaj, again, is my source of knowledge of this, and Srila Sridhar Maharaj used to visit and sit with Vamsi das Babaji when he was visiting Koladwip). Aside that, what about the Pandava named Bhima. Why not have a discussion on this site about the fact that in the Mahabharata it states in plain text that Bhima used to eat beef? There is a large section in the Mahabharata where Bhishmadeva praises the value of eating meat. Etc. etc. etc. I could also quote some startling statements from the Ramayana as well but I don't want to freak people out. In the end, we followers of Srila Saraswati Thakura have been taught that we will follow in the footsteps of Bhaktivinode Thakura who taught us to become vegetarians. And we will worship the dust of the feet of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura.

This is an old discussion. Suffice to say that Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura published Sri Krishna Samhita and taught the things in that book to his disciples.

I know of one. Gopiparanadhana. In his translation of Brhadbhagavatamrtam he has included the commentary (tika) of Srila Sanatana Goswami, but he didn't present the commentary "as it is" rather he has written his own commentary on the basis of Sanatana's tika. Gopiparanadhana has many "we fell from Vaikuntha" statements in his translation, but then if you check it against the original (I have the original Sanskrit and Bengali, and a Bengali friend who knows sanskrit who can translate it for me) and we have found MANY instances where Gopiparanadhana has mis-represented what Sanantana Goswami is saying. When I first got this translation of Brhadbhagavatamrtam I was excited and I still recommend that devotees read it. But there are a large number of mistranslations in the book. Sad to say this, but it is a fact.

When it comes to translations of scripture, it is always best to have translations that are like Srila Prabhupadas, where you have the original Bengali or Sanskrit, a word for word listing, and then the English translation. At the very least we need to have the original Sanskrit/Bengali and then the English. Without the Sanskrit we cannot trust that the translation is correct.

Bhaktivinode Thakura said karma and reincarnation are real, and from my own personal experience and also from verifiable instances where people I know have had flashes of memory of "other life" experiences, I take it that past lives can be established as real. That we have lived many lifetimes is a fact that can be established as a verifiable fact. Of course atheists and skeptics have their arguments againt karma/reincarnation. But Dr Ian Stevenson has also established a strong scientific case for the existence of past lives http://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/internet/personalitystudies/ So on this basis, I take it as a fact that the person who came into this world 500 years ago as Sri Chaitanya, and who we know through historical evidence is not a "fairy tale person", this person must still be alive since the soul never dies. Sri Gauranga is living on some planet, somewhere, and I am trying to fix my mind on his feet so I can go and meet with him. This, of course, is the standard practice of sadhana bhakti. This person Sri Chaitanya had many wonderful pastimes of love. Sri Chaitanya inspired many exalted souls such as Sanatana Goswami so that those souls gave up all their worldly ambitions and served Krishna. And in doing this Sanatana did not feel he was "missing out" but rather that he was feeling infinite blisss. That bliss was attained by many souls, and by a simple process: Harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam.... Bhaktivinode attained this same bliss. So did my Guru Maharaj. And my Guru Maharaj told me I could attain the same bliss myself "even in this lifetime" so I am trying for that. The path of the mahajans is not a path for people who choose to be blind through "blind faith" but a path for awakened people to follow.

Prabhu, I cannot find anything like it at all\ I searched and studied all the places where the word "vaikuntha" is written. No places in the book seem to say anything like the section you quoted sorry

My understanding is that when the souls are merged in sayujya-mukti they are adoring God who they see as an Impersonal Being. These worshippers of "formless god" are listed by Sri Chaitanyadeva as "santa-bhaktas". Their jnana is limited and they cannot see all of Vaikuntha. They can see worlds in universes created by Maya and they think of themself as someone who is "above" Maya. They think the same way as the Lord of Maya, and regard Maya as an illusion. Srila Sridhar Maharaj explained this to me, and told me this verse: "Pasa baddha bhavet jiva, pasa mukta sada shiva" The word pasa means "animal" as in the case of Ganesha. Shiva is called "Pasupati". When the animate being (animal) is in illusion he is a jiva; when he is liberated he is merged with Shiva. <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote: <table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Śrī Caitanya Madhya 24.164 ei saba śānta yabe bhaje bhagavān 'śānta' bhakta kari' tabe kahi tāńra nāma "These thirteen types of yogīs and munis are called śānta-bhaktas, for they render transcendental loving service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead in the neutral stage. </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Amongst the thirteen types of yogis and munis: <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote: <table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Śrī Caitanya Madhya 24.155 sagarbha, nigarbha, — ei haya dui bheda eka eka tina bhede chaya vibheda TRANSLATION "The two types of ātmārāma-yogīs are called sagarbha and nigarbha. Each of these is divided into three; therefore there are six types of worshipers of the Supersoul. PURPORT The word sagarbha-yogī refers to a yogī who worships the Supersoul in the Viṣṇu form. The nigarbha-yogī worships the Supersoul without form. The sagarbha and nigarbha yogīs are further categorized: (1) sagarbha-yogārurukṣu, (2) nigarbha-yogārurukṣu, (3) sagarbha-yogārūḍha, (4) nigarbha-yogārūḍha, (5) sagarbha-prāpta-siddhi and (6) nigarbha-prāpta-siddhi. </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> So, included within the list of souls who Mahaprabhu calls "santa-bhaktas" (Madhya 24.164) there is that category of souls who worship the "formless Absolute" (Brahman).

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura emphasised the rational approach to spirituality. I live by the principles he taught. Hell is an idea not a physical location; the monkeys in the Ramayana were men who the Aryans described as monkeys; the story of Putana represents how God destroys false guardians (gurus); the das-avatara are forms of God that different kinds of men worship in that Nrsimha appeals to semi-civilized people and Rama appeals to people who believe in Dharma; etc. etc. etc. Blind adherance to notions mentioned in the scriptures that are impossible to believe from a common sense perspective, such as the notion that only 8,400,000 species exist (this is the number given in the Manu Samhita by the way, and orthodox listings always repeat this number), those "blind faith" views are what Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura said are necessary for some sorts of people. Your average jihadi or Creationist, for instance, likes to think in terms of a "literal" understanding of scripture. Many "devotees" also like to adhere to the literal reading of shastra. But if we are seekers of Truth we will appreciate the perspective Theist and Gaurasundara are indicating. Science and Reason are not evil. In my opinion "Blind Faith" is evil. The proponents of Blind Faith invariably promote fascist views and despise freedom of thought.

My personal opinion? Yes it is essential. I mean, if they cannot accept that there are exactly 8 million species of life then how can we expect them to understand really essential points of the philosophy? For example, we know that formerly, on the seventh day of the bright half of Vaisakha month, the river Ganga was all drunk up in a mood of anger of the sage Jahnu, and that later on Jahnu let it come out from the cavity of his right ear. Scientists are so dumb they have problems understanding simple things such as this pastime of sage Jahnu.

There are 400,000 species of "humans" included in this list. So you have brahmins, kshatriya, devas, apsaras, etc. Thinking about this .... Say you were at the very bottom of creation, because you had committed a huge amount of sin.... Say if you get born once in each species and you are evolving towards human birth.... the cycle of satya, dvapara, treta, kali lasts 4 million years... 14 manvantaras (14 Manus reign) in one day of Brahma... with each manu presiding over 71 cyles of Satya/kali ... thus.. 400 million years in each day of brahma... If each birth as a plant or animal lasts on average 10 years.... (surely they wouldn't since a germ may live only a few days)... and you evolve through 8 million forms to get to a human form.... it takes about 80 million years to evolve from a bacteria to a human body... So in each day of brahma I will become a man about 5 times or more.