muralidhar_das

and The image I posted above shows how we "worship from a distance". We identify ourselves as members of the sankirtana. We are in the "lower level" and we don't presume to imagine ourselves as members of the group that is playing on the higher level. In regard to this "arrogance of the raganuga bhakta"... As a disciple of Srila Sridhar Maharaj I will say that my Guru Maharja would say he "despises" people who relish that kind of arrogance you speak about. The Vrajabasis may feel some sort of intimacy with Sri Krishna and have some sort of jovial play with him. But for people of a lower level than that, people who are on a lower level than Srila Gaurakishore das Babaji, and people who are awake in this world of duality that I see before me, those people who are awake on the lower plane should never speak any words of arrogance. We, who are in the plane of existence where we are going on with the sankirtan, we are followers of the maxim "trnad api sunicena, taror api sahisnuna". Following this maxim as our primary understanding about our "self" (I am a worm in stool) we see ourselves as being about as insignificant as a bit of straw on the roadside. That is, we don't have a self image of thinking "I am a gopi" (or manjari). We think, "I am a worm". This is the philosophy taught to me by Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Dev Goswami Maharaj and Sri Haricharan das Brahmacari. We devotees of SCSMath (and ISKCON) are on the lower level. We are engaged in Sankirtan. We don't imagine we know our siddha-deha and that we have already got some intimate understanding about life in the higher plane of existence. We know some general information about the higher lilas which our Guru Maharaj and Prabhupada Srila Swami Maharaj have given us in his "Krsna Book". But our Gurus don't tell us about our siddha-deha and we don't have any manjari name given to us by our Guru. We don't get instruction in such things. We are simply going on with our service and participating in the sankirtan-yajna we have been initiated into by Sri Guru. We offer our words of "Hari-kirtan" as an offering to Bhagavan Sri Chaitanyadeva. How will worms such as myself ever get to the higher world? The answer to that is given in a recent article by Sripad Bhakt Sudhir Goswami named "Getting Beyond Narayan". Goswami Maharaj quotes Srila Govinda Maharaj as having said this about the meditation my Guru Maharaj was absorbed in in the final days of his life on earth: I can confirm to you that this was, indeed, the meditation Guru Maharaj was feeling in those last weeks and days of his life on earth. I remember it. I was there.

"From afar we shall worship the 'raga-patha,' the path of spontaneous affectionate service, while we ourselves live within the Vedic guideline." http://www.scsmath.com/memories/04/040114_nbdwp_jms_webpage/index2.htm This is the authoritative translation given from our Math, which you can see referenced at that URL.

I do not know how to speak Bangla at all, except that I know numbers and the names of some vegetables and fruit, and a few other related things. I can read the names of train stations written in Bengali as I go past them but that is the limit of my knowledge of Bengali. But I really don't think that my lack of knowledge of that language is a major impediment to understanding the meaning of what Prabhupada was saying in that verse. This is because I have heard the meaning of the verse explained by three devotees who have conveyed the meaning to me in the preceptorial parampara. That is, Srila Sridhar Maharaj, who lived with Saraswati Thakur for several years and who was not only his personal assistant but was also consulting with Prabhupada about Sanskrit and Bengali slokas etc. Srila Sridhar Maharaj had very long and extensive siksa about the meaning that Saraswati Thakur meant to express when he presented this verse. The second person is Srila Govinda Maharaj, who lived with Guru Maharaj for fifty years and who had intimate relations with several other scholar-disciples of Saraswati Thakur including Bhakti Saranga Goswami, Yajavar Maharaj, Madhusudana Maharaj, Dol Govinda Shastri, etc. The third person who I have learned about this verse from is my senior godbrother Haricharan das Brahmacari, who joined the Math in 1952 and who lived in the room adjoining Srila Sridhar Maharaj's room for all that time. Haricharan is now the main siksa-guru of the Bengali devotees at the Math and he gives most of the daily classes held at the Math - Chaitanya Bhagavat in the afternoon, CC classes in the morning. He has been giving the classes there for a long time -- he was there doing that when I came to the Math in 1981. So what I have to say is simply that I can pass on what I have received from these authorities. I do believe I can pass on what they had to say about that verse. Someone might say, "I don't believe Sridhar Maharaj really said what Murali says he said" but that is of no concern to me. I am Guru Maharaj's disciple and I just remember what he told me, and what I hear him saying on the 2,000 tape recorded discussions I have of Guru Maharaj speaking in English to his disciples. Again, whatever I have heard from Srila Govinda Maharaj I take to be the same as Guru Maharaj's advice. Other people may choke to hear me say that but I don't care. Goodbye to you. Don't bother reading anything I say beyond this full stop.

ANYONE READING THIS PLEASE NOTE: I am writing on this thread solely for the reason of replying to Jagat's statements in regard to the verse of Prabhupada "matala harijana kirtana range pujala ragapatha gaurava bhange". Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES WHATSOEVER will I enter into any discussions with anyone other than Jagat on this forum. I am simply interested in responding to your statements (Jagat) about gaurava. I would appreciate it if other persons with other issues in mind would leave this thread alone and use another thread to discuss any other issues that they want to discuss. Not being demanding here, but I merely want to have a clear discussion about this verse with Jagat without having other highly charged issues clouding over the discussion. ================ Jagat, here is the full Chaitanya-Saraswat Math commentary to the verse. Our commentary is not just words, but we can envisage the commentary as an image. I have much larger images I can upload, but I believe the meaning is clear enough from this image.

No don't take me seriously. Forget me, as I have already forgotten you.

I posted the information about Sripat Bamanpara to inform people about that wonderful place. But for your information I have been told directly by Srila Govinda Maharaj in a one-on-one situation that he does't desire that "everyone" should listen to him. He said he only wants to assist devotees who are trying to follow Srila Sridhar Maharaj. If others want to do otherwise then they may "do as they like" (to quote Srila Govinda Maharaj). You go and make comments about what I said two minutes ago or ten minutes ago. Well, dude, take a look at the Math website today and see what is there on the top of the page: 19 June 2006 Audio: "We must be serious about the ruling of Mahaprabhu Sri Chaitanyadev... I want to give remembrance to everyone." This morning's class to the devotees by Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Dev-Goswami Maharaj. Praphulla Krishna Prabhu of Brazil was present and reported, "Srila Gurudev was looking directly into the faces of the devotees one by one, stressing to them the importance of Mahaprabhu's teachings of humility, tolerance and giving honour to others." Download, or listen online (40+ minutes, 4.9 MB mp3 audio). =============== What more can I say? Only goodbye.

I have read Sri Guru and His Grace too. In fact there is a paragraph in there which I wrote. Not Guru Maharaj. The editor decided that my words were in keeping with the flow of what Guru Maharaj was getting at so he used my words instead of words we were hearing on tapes. Which just goes to show that the direct instruction we get from the Divine is more important than words in books. Books can help us but ultimately, as Srila Sridhar Maharaj often said, we need to rely on our inner faith and inner realization. Being a mindless follower of books or of Authority figures is not the way of devotion that Guru Maharaj taught us. My siksa guru says, "do as you think is best". Which of course is what Krishna told Arjuna when He finished giving His sermon at Kurukshetra.

Prabhu nobody hates you and nobody thinks badly of you. Gurudev included, I'm sure. I'm 99% certain I know who you are --- you are my old friend who lived with Goswami in the early days --- but I was only meaning to say that it is better to be avoiding dramas than getting involved in dramas.

Prabhu, If you like to fight that is ok. Go for it. But I can say with absolute certainty that Srila Govinda Maharaj will not be there with you in the fight.

Kripamoya, Dandabats. May I humbly suggest that you don't advocate people going to take shelter of Srila Govinda Maharaj on a discussion board such as this. Inevitably, someone will get offended that their own Guru-varga is not being recommended, and they will say bad things about Srila Govinda Maharaj as a way of putting him down and putting up their guru. I have seen it happen time and time again on these sorts of discussion boards and I don't want to see it happen again. And by the way, I am the manager of one of Srila Govinda Maharaj's temples, and I do have his backing to make this sort of request. I really don't want to make another comment on this board after this. I used to come here a while ago and make lots of comments but the endless conflicts I see here are not good for my soul so I will sign off now. Bye.

Dear Devotees, My God-sister Divya Shakti has just put a page online showing pictures of Sripat Bamunpara, the birth place of His Divine Grace Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Dev Goswami Maharaj. Here is the link: http://www.scsmath.com/memories/06a/060619_bamunpara/060619-bamunpara.html For people who have not heard of him, Srila Govinda Maharaj is the successor-Acharya of Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj, founder of Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math in Nabadwip Dham. Our Srila Govinda Maharaj was born in the family of Sri Nitai Pada Dasadhikari, who was a Guru in the family line (Nityananda vamsa) coming from Sri Nityananda Prabhu. The family name Dasadhikari was given to the family by Sri Nityananda Prabhu himself, and since the time of Lord Nityananda's presence the family head has been a Guru and Pujari (adhikari) worshipping the Deities named Radha Gopinathjiu at Sripat Bamunpara. In recent years, the Deity of Sri Gauranga has been installed alongside Radha Gopinathjiu, as is customary in temples of Srila Sridhar Maharaj. Bamanpara is 40 km north west of Nabadwip, and it is within the "Gaura Mandala Bhumi", or in other words the holy dham of Sri Gauranga. After Srila Govinda Maharaj's father died when Srila Govinda Maharaj was twelve our Govinda Maharaj came to take shelter of the His Divine Grace Srila Sridhar Maharaj at his ashram in Nabadwip. Srila Govinda Maharaj was supposed to be a Guru in the lineage of his father, since he was the eldest son, but he chose instead to become a disciple in the lineage of Om Vishnupada Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur, the founder of Sri Gaudiya Math and the true successor of Srila Satchidananda Bhaktivinode Thakur. The village name, Sripat Bamunpara, by the way, means the "village of the brahmanas".

The demarcation or separation is acintya. For example, if someone is a saktyavesha avatara such as Parasurama then what is there in this person that is "God" and what is there in him that is a "jiva". Is he God or is he a man (Rama defeated Parasurama and in this way Rama established his Supreme position. Rama is Vishnu; Parasurama is saktyavesha). Again, matter is considered to be "inanimate" but the scriptures also say that Vishnu is all pervading and "everything" - so every thing, even such things as clouds and the wind, are "God", when you look at things from a particular perspective. One, and different, at the same time.

If you categorize things according to the dichotomy "spiritual and material" then the Jiva and God are the same - they are both spiritual. So the jiva is "one with God" in this sense. If you categorize the jiva according to the dichotomy "Master and servant" then the jiva (the servant) is considered to be different from God (the Lord). So the jiva is "not one with God". Both facts are true, in this way. Oneness and difference are both true, when you look at things from different perspectives. Both the Jiva and God have personality, so they are "one" in the sense that they are beings with personality. But God is an eternally blissful personality and the jiva is suffering in illusion. So they are "different". Achintya bheda abheda.

quote<blockquote> acintya, it is unthinkable and thus unspeakable. so why bother saying bhedabheda? better to stay quiet and be like one of those advaitins - it is all achintya/anirvachaniya.</blockquote> The relationship between God and the individual things in this universe is not inexpressible (anirvacaniya). In his book Brhad Bhagavatamrtam, Sri Sanatana Goswami has quoted Sri Adi Shankaracharya Bhagavatapada who wrote: <blockquote> saty api bhedapagame natha tavaham na mamakinas tvam samudro hi tarangah kva ca na samudras tarangah "My Lord, even when all difference is gone, I am Yours, though You are not mine. A wave belongs to the ocean, but surely the ocean does not belong to the wave" (Prarthana-satpadi 3) </blockquote> The jiva and Brahman (God) are like a wave and the ocean. This relationship is quite easy to understand. The wave is simultaneously one with the ocean and a distinct individual unit. The relationship is understandable, and it arises because of the achinta-shakti (the inconceivably great power of God). This achintya shakti power is described in the Svetasvartara Upanishad (Svetasvatara Up. I. 2). In his commentary to that verse, Shankara points out that Devatmashakti, the cause of the world, is not separate from the Paramatma, rather it is the inherent power of the all-powerful Lord Paramatma. Because God has unlimited power he can manifest the variegated universe through his inconceivably powerful (achintya) potency. Further to this, Sri Sanatan Goswami writes: <blockquote> sada vaijatyam aptanam jivanam api tattvatah amsatvenapy abhinnatvad vijatiya bhida mrta The jivas always have their own identities, different from that of the Suprema. But they are parts of the Supreme and cannot exist separate from Him, and this rules out the difference called vijatiya (difference between things of the same category) asmin hi bhedabhedakhye siddhante 'smat sammate yuktyavatarite sarvam niravadham dhruvam bhavet We fully agree with this philosophical doctrine, called bhedabheda. Indeed, when it is presented with logical argument, everything about it is certain and irrefutable. (Brhadbagavatamrtam 2.2.195-6) </blockquote> The different incarnations of Vishnu are all in the category of beings who have unlimited greatness. The jivas are in a different category of spritual beings, namely they are members of the category of spiritual beings that have finite size and powers. The Vishnu forms are all "abheda" non-different from each other. The jiva forms are all "bheda" or different from each other (and from God). But at the same time the jivas and God are both within the category of spiritual beings, unlike unconscious physical bodies such as rocks and sand. So when taken from the perspective of spiritual beings, jivas and God are "abheda" or non-different, since they both belong to that category. The final conclusion to all this is what Krishna said in Srimad Bhagavat Purana (11.28.19): <blockquote> Gold remains gold both before and after ornaments are made of it. It only gets different names such as ring or necklace. Similarly, the Reality, the Cause of creation, is the same both before and after worldly objects receive their various names and forms. </blockquote> By the Lord's inconceivable power He, the One, has become many. But even now, when all this variegatedness exists, He is always the supreme totality, the Supreme Whole, the Supreme One. This is not anirvacaniya (inexpressible). It is very understandable and clear (it is clear to me and to anyone else who carefully studies what Srila Sanatan Goswami said in this regard.... Please forgive my inadequacy in expressing this more clearly here! I'm sorry I coudn't do a better job of it)

This book describes life and the religious activities practiced by beings in many of the worlds within this universe, and in the Vaikuntha realm as well. It describes in detail the planets where different categories of sages and gods live, and the gradation of "awakenment" that beings in different planes of existence have. There is an old translation by Kusakratha Prabhu which you can read here www.mandala.com.au/brhad/ but this is nowhere near as illuminating as the full translation made by Gopiparanadhana which includes the entire commentary written by Srila Sanatana Goswami himsef. In fact this book was inspired directly by the direct instruction given by Sri Chaitanyadeva to Srila Sanatan Goswami. If you study Gopiparanadhana's book carefully it will amaze you

Bhakta Don Prabhu, I think you would be very glad, if you read Sri Brhadbhagavatamrtam written by Sri Sanatana Goswami. It has been translated into English in a few editions but the best translation we have is the BBT edition translated by Gopiparanadhana. There are so many things in that book which will amaze you. Take a look.

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura: "We are thus warned to be careful in our studies of old authors, however wise they are reputed to be." Kulapavana: would that not apply to his writings as well? if not, than why? -------- Yes I does. But then what Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur says is usually spoken from a realist point of view. Like for instance when he said we should not think the Bhagavatam is presenting "literal" descriptions of the geography of this planet earth but rather that it is speaking of planes of existence (hellish plane of existence, godly, varnashram-culture etc.)

The person who is Jagat Guru, the universal teacher, is considered to be the living incarnation of Vyasa and they sit upon the throne we call the "Vyasa-asana". Badarayana, who wrote the Brahma-sutra (Vedanta Sutra) and who lived around the time of Christ is considered to be an incarnation of Vyasa. Vrndavana dasa is the incarnation of Vyasa in Chaitanya Lila. bhagavate krsna-lila varnila vedavyasa caitanya-lilate vyasa--vrndavana-dasa (CC Adi 11.55) "Srila Vyasadeva described the pastimes of Krsna in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. The Vyasa of the pastimes of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu was Vrndavana dasa." Also, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura wrote that the souls of great thinkers who have now left this world (such as Vyasa) can visit us "in the spirit" and assist us: <blockquote> The Bhagavata teaches us that God gives us truth and He gave it to Vyasa, when we earnestly seek for it. Truth is eternal and unexchausted. The soul receives a revelation when it is anxious for it. The souls of the great thinkers of the by-gone ages, who now live spiritually, often approach our inquiring spirit and assist it in its development. Thus Vyasa was assisted by Narada and Brahma. Our sastras, or in other words, books of thought do not contain all that we could get from the infinite Father. No book is without its errors. God's revelation is absolute truth, but it is scarcely received and preserved in its natural purity. We have been advised in the 14th Chapter of 11th skandha of the Bhagavata to believe that truth when revealed is absolute, but it gets the tincture of the nature of the receiver in course of time and is converted into error by continual exchange of hands from age to age. New revelations, therefore, are continually necessary in order to keep truth in its original purity. We are thus warned to be careful in our studies of old authors, however wise they are reputed to be. Here we have full liberty to reject the wrong idea, which is not sanctioned by the peace of conscience. Vyasa was not satisfied with what he collected in the Vedas, arranged in the Puranas and composed in the Mahabharata. The peace of his conscience did not sanction his labors. It told him from inside "No, Vyasa! you can't rest contented with the erroneous picture of truth which was necessarily presented to you by the sages of by-gone days! You must yourself knock at the door of the inexhaustible store of truth from which the former ages drew their wealth. Go, go up to the Fountain-head of truth where no pilgrim meets with disappointment of any kind." Vyasa did it and obtained what he wanted. We have been all advised to do so. Liberty then is the principle, which we must consider as the most valuable gift of God. We must not allow ourselves to be led by those who lived and thought before us. We must think for ourselves and try to get further truths which are still undiscovered. In the 23rd text 21st Chapter 11th skandha of the Bh.gavata we have been advised to take the spirit of the sastras and not the words. The Bhagavata is therefore a religion of liberty, unmixed truth and absolute love. </blockquote>

It's funny to see that this thread has been resurected after three years. Maybe there is some truth to the doctrine that physical bodies get resurrected and the spirit that lay waiting in the ground comes back to life. Zombies..... But seriously, the full story with this thread is that someone came to this site and started a thread titled "Was Krishna Based On Christ". So I posted this thread as a response. Sri Krishna the son of Devaki of the Yadava clan is mentioned in the Chandogya Upanishad, which was written centuries before the birth of Buddha (650 BC), according to Encyclopaedia Brittanica. So the suggestion that Krishna is based on Christ is simpy ridiculous.

Srila Sridhar Maharaj: All-embracing Mercy of Nityananda Prabhu ------- Nityananda Prabhu's mercy sometimes exceeds the mercy of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Because it may create a bad precedent, Mahaprabhu sometimes cannot accept certain fallen souls-He has to consider their status as well as other things. Nityananda Prabhu's mercy, however, does not care for any unfavorable circumstances; His mercy is very lavish and almost blind. He does not discriminate between different degrees of sinners. His mercy is all-embracing. And Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu cannot dismiss His recommendation. Even those who Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu rejected, Nityananda Prabhu sheltered, and gradually Mahaprabhu had to accept them. So the grace of Nityananda is the greatest both in magnitude and circumference, and that is our solace, for by His mercy even the most fallen souls can attain the supreme goal. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu once told His followers, "Even if Nityananda Prabhu is found with a fallen girl of the lowest kind, drinking wine in a wine shop, still you should know that He is above all these things. Although you may find Him apparently engaged in lower activities, He is never implicated. He may appear connected with so many fallen activities, but you should know that He is always revered by the creator of the universe, Lord Brahma, and other exalted devotees. Nityananda Prabhu's mercy is so powerful that if one simply takes a piece of His loincloth and wears it respectfully on his body, he will be saved from all the disturbances of the mundane senses." Therefore we pray, "May my mind always stick to His holy feet; I offer my obeisances to Sri Nityananda Prabhu." Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu took sannyasa for the benefit of those souls swallowed by maya. He ran and chased after the fallen souls to deliver them from illusion by giving them the holy name of Krishna, and Nityananda Prabhu, like His shadow, ran after Him wherever he went. He fully surrendered and identified Himself with Mahaprabhu's cause. So we must bow down to Nityananda Prabhu. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu was merged in tasting the sweetness of Radha-Govinda lila, and diving deep into that reality, however, at the same time, He wanted to deliver all souls whose hearts had not been devoured by the false notions of renunciation and exploitation, He ordered Nityananda Prabhu, "Go to Bengal and try to deliver them-give them divine love for Radha and Krishna." He ordered Nityananda Prabhu to distribute divine love for Radha-Govinda, but instead, Nityananda began to preach about Sri Gauranga. He thought, "It will be better for them to worship Gauranga; that will help free them from their offenses in their present condition, and by doing so, they will automatically achieve a position in Radha-Govinda lila." he was ordered to preach the name of Krishna, but instead began to preach the name of Gauranga. So, for our own welfare, we bow down to Nityananda Prabhu with all our humility. We pray, "O Nityananda Prabhu, O gurudeva, please give me a drop of firm faith in Sri Gauranga, who is Radha-Govinda combined, tasting the sweetness of the divine nectar of the pastimes of Vrndavana. Give me a drop of faith, so that one day I may attain divine love and enter into that domain." If we neglect Nityananda Prabhu and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, our aspiration to serve Radha- Govinda will be a dream, an abstract imagination without reality. Nityananda Prabhu is the refuge of all fallen souls. He is the most generous-hearted aspect of guru-tattva; we must bow down our head to Him, accept His holy feet, and surrender to Him. In the spiritual realm of Vaikuntha, Nityananda Prabhu is represented as Sankarsana, the Supreme Lord who is considered to be the foundation of everything in existence. All possible existence is maintained by His energy. Nityananda Prabhu is the original Baladeva, the Personality of Godhead. Therefor, we should view the pastimes of Nityananda Prabhu with full consciousness of His dignified position, although He used to roam about here and there, rolling in the dust with tears in His eyes, saying, "Take the name of Gauranga and I will be sold to you." Although He posed in this lower position, still, He should be considered in light of His actual dignified position. We must surrender to Him with that attitude. Balarama is represented in different parts of the spiritual world in different aspects. He came here as Nityananda Prabhu with Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. The truth about Nityananda Prabhu has been exhaustively explained in Caitanya-caritamrta and Caitanya-bhagavata. There, He is described as enjoying His life and relishing His pastimes with His own younger brother. To that Nityananda, we must bow our heads. Sri Krishna prema, divine love, is an inconceivable substance which is very pleasing and ecstatic. Great saints who get a taste of that wonderful substance throw away all sorts of aspirations, including salvation, which is lavishly praised by the Vedas. So Nityananda Prabhu, although one with Baladeva, is greater than Him? Why? He is distributing divine love. What is divine love? It is so important and valuable, so much higher than all other sorts of achievements, that one who can give divine love is far superior to those who can give duty, wealth, pleasure, and even salvation (dharma, artha, kama, moksa). If we conceive that Krishna is subordinate to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, then of course Balarama is subordinate to Nityananda Prabhu. In all other respects the two of Them are similar, but when magnanimity is added to Balarama, He becomes Nityananda Prabhu. First, the position of divine love must be established: the great saints discard salvation and other things after they get a slight scent of divine love. Once the position of divine love is established, we can understand that one who can give it must necessarily be superior to the givers of all other things. So Nityananda Balarama is superior to Karanodakasayi Visnu, the Supersoul of the collective universes, Garbhodakasayi Visnu, the Supersoul of this universe; and Ksirodakasayi Visnu, the Supersoul of all living beings. And that Balarama has come here as Nityananda Prabhu-not with majesty, grandeur, or power, but in a human form-to distribute divine love. And He is the giver of Gauranga. His greatness is proved by this fact. We can understand this by further examining the different aspects of his life, step by step. Nityananda Prabhu was born in Ekacakra, and there He passed His early life. his parents, friends and neighbors were filled with ecstatic joy, being pleased with His sweet infant pastimes. From His birth, He was a pleasure to the whole atmosphere of Ekacakra, and in this joyful atmosphere He passed his childhood years. One day, while Nityananda was still young, a sannyasi came to His home and begged Him from His parents. The sannyasi was roaming about to different holy places and he prayed for Nityananda as his alms. He took Him in his company and Nityananda Prabhu wandered about almost all the holy places, following that sannyasi. It is said that the sannyasi was Madhavendra Puri. Then one day, from within, feeling ecstasy in His heart, Nityananda Prabhu could understand that Sri Gauranga had begun His pastimes of sankirtana in Navadvipa Dhama. That day, Mahaprabhu told His followers, "I had a dream that an extraordinarily great man, in a chariot marked with the palm tree flag of Balarama, came to my door and said, 'Where is the house of Nimai Pandita?' Twice, thrice, four times-again and again-He keeps saying, 'Where is the house of Nimai Pandita?'" Mahaprabhu continued, "That great personage must have come last night to Navadwipa. Try to search Him out." They searched and searched, but could not find Him anywhere. Then Mahaprabhu told them, "Let Me try." He took them straight to the home of Nandanacarya, and when Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu with His followers suddenly arrived there, they found Nityananda Prabhu sitting on the veranda. After seeing Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Nityananda Prabhu stared intently at Him for some time, became absorbed in Him, and fainted. In this way, in one day, He became the most intimate associate of Sriman Mahaprabhu. When He was ordered by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu to give Krsna consciousness to everyone, He began to distribute Gauranga consciousness, divine love of Sri Gauranga. That Nityananda Prabhu is the savior of all fallen souls, without any discrimination of the degree of their fallenness, so we bow down to His holy feet. Once, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu had a secret talk with Nityananda Prabhu in Jagannatha Puri. When Nityananda Prabhu went to Bengal and married, some say that Mahaprabhu asked Him to marry. It is our opinion that because the so-called "high class" people were so much surcharged with vanity, Nityananda Prabhu was asked to approach the masses. Because he was ordered to mix with them very familiarly for His preaching purposes, it was found necessary for Him to marry. Otherwise, if he were to have mixed very familiarly with family men, accusations may have been leveled at His standard of renunciation. And to further that purpose, He married. He had to adopt that policy and accept that attitude. And He may have been told to do so by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu; it was not His own decision. Of course, marrying or not marrying was nothing to Him. How he came in contact with His eternal consort, Jahnavadevi is described in the Bhakti-ratnakara. It appears that when He was preaching all around Bengal, He preached at the house of Jahnavadevi's father, Suryadasa Pandita, the brother of Gauridasa Pandita, who was already a follower of Gaura-Nityananda. Suryadasa gave Him intimate help in His propaganda work, as his house was a good base. And Suryadasa, who had two daughters, offered Nityananda Prabhu his daughter in marriage. Ultimately, Srila Nityananda Prabhu and Srimati Jahnavadevi are eternally associated, and although their marriage apparently took place out of necessity, it was actually part of Their eternal lila. Of course, some so-called sannyasis take advantage of this to give up their bows of celibacy and marry. They give the marriage of Nityananda as an excuse. But it is not a proven fact that Nityananda Prabhu was a sannyasi. Actually, the name "Nityananda" is a brahmacari name. "Ananda" is a suffix added to the name of a brahmacari. Ananda, Svarupa, Prakasa, and Caitanya are different types of brahmacari names. The name Ananda is also found in the sannyasa order of life, but we find no sannyasa title mentioned for Nityananda Prabhu. There is also no mention anywhere of a sannyasa guru for Nityananda Prabhu, although we know that His diksa guru was Madhavendra Puri, the guru of Advaita Prabhu and Isvara Puri. Nityananda Prabhu is known as an avadhuta. Avadhuta does not mean a sannyasi, but one who is not very particular about his external practices and sometimes does things which should not be done. When an exalted person is seen engaging in lower practices, he is considered an avadhuta. It is understood that he is above that, but his practices are of a lower nature. Ava means lower, and dhuta means that he can either remove or purify. Nityananda Prabhu broke the single sannyasa staff (ekadanda) into three; that indicates that when taking sannyasa, the renounced order of life, we should accept not one, but three dandas, which symbolize the dedication of body, mind, and words in the service of the Lord. And Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Prabhupada was also inspired by this action of Nityananda Prabhu's to give tridandi sannyasa to his followers, in contrast to ekadanda which was formerly current in Bengal. The system of tridandi sannyasa as the custom in Southeast India with the Vaishnavas who follow Ramanujacarya, and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta introduced it for the modern age. Nityananda Prabhu's approach was somewhat peculiar. His strategy was to uplift the most fallen. Like Napoleon, whose policy was to attack the strongest position of the opposing army, Nityananda Prabhu wanted to capture the most sinful. Generally, we think that a saint flies away from this world of maya and goes to a solitary place where he can enter into a cave and engage himself in meditation. Indian saints generally preach, "Give up everything, go to a solitary place in the jungle, find a cave, and engage yourself fully in understanding Godhead." But our guru maharaja was different. Like Mahaprabhu and Nityananda Prabhu, he wanted to attack maya and, like a great general, he declared totalitarian war on illusion and even all other existing conceptions of religion. "Why is there this misunderstanding and misconception?" he thought, "Everything belongs to Krishna: isavasyam idam sarvam. It is plain and simple and sweet. How can we think, 'This is for me, that is for Him?' Why should we let this misconception stand here at all? Attack it-and crush the whole thing!" He told us, "Kirtana means to preach against misconception. As soldiers, you must go door to door and preach Krishna consciousness-Krishna's interest-the Krishna conception. If they understand that everything is for Krishna, they will be saved. This truth is plain and simple. Why should they not understand this? Try to capture them, to release them from the world of misconception and misunderstanding where they are now suffering from reaction." In this way, we are not afraid of anything. A Vaishnava who loved solitary life once asked our Guru Maharaja, "Why do you stay at Calcutta? That is the place of Satan, where fighting for sel- fish interest is so acute. Leave that-come to the holy dhama." But Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura especially chose that place, saying, "I prefer to represent Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's creed in an extremely contaminated place." For this reason, he wanted to send men to the West. "The East is captured by the glamour of Western civilization," he said, "so Western civilization must first be crushed. Then, its glamour will vanish and the whole world will come to join the campaign of divine love of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu." This was the same spirit with which Nityananda Prabhu canvassed the fallen souls of this world, in His attempt to take them to the lotus feet of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

What makes you think I ever rejected Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj Prabhupada as my guru? My name is listed on the database of Prabhupada disciples by accident. I never received diksa or Harinama officially from Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj Prabhupada. I left ISKCON in 1973 and took initiation from Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj who taught us that Srila Prabhupada is a "saktyavesha avatara".

<h2>Each to his own</h2> 19) After many, many births, the knowledgable person who happens to attain the association of a pure devotee finally comes to understand that the whole universe of moving and stationary being is of the nature of Vasudeva alone, inasmuch as all are subordinate to Vasudeva. Having grasped this conception he surrenders unto Me. Know such a great soul to be extremely rare. 20) Persons whose good intelligence has been spoiled by illicit desires for exploitation and renunciation or other duplicitous pursuits worship other godly personalities such as the Sun-god and the many gods. Being enslaved by their instinct, they adopt the corresponding rules and regulations of fasting and other tenets accordingly. 21) According to whichever god representing a form of Me a particular devotee desires to worship faithfully, I, as the Supersoul dwelling within his heart, make his faith strong for the deity of his choice. 22) After being endowed with this firm faith by Me, such a devotee goes on worshiping the deity of that god, and gains all his desired objects from that deity. Certainly this is enacted by My sanction alone, since I am the Supersoul situated within the heart of the demigod also. 23) But the fruit obtained by those provincially interested worshipers of the various demigods is temporary. They reach their respective gods, but My devotees obtain Me. 24) My eternal superexcellent nature, form, qualities, activities, pastimes, and associated paraphernalia are all transcendental to illusion. But unintelligent men, unable to know this reality, think of Me thus: 'Oh, the supra-mundane, formless impersonal Brahman has recently accepted birth in an illusory form in Vasudeva's prison chamber in the dungeon of Kamsa.' 25) By My own sweet will, remaining concealed by an illusory image, I am not manifest to anyone and everyone. Therefore, non of these foolish persons can ever really know Me as the son of Vasudeva, who am independent of mundane birth and ever-existent in My divine personal Syamasundara form of beautiful feature like a blackish rain-cloud.

In his Govinda Bhasya commentary to Vedanta Sutra 4.4.12, the verse "Dvadasahavadubhayavidham baadarayano'tah", Baladeva Vidyabhusana states: <blockquote> the liberated soul, by his own wish, may either have a body or not have a body</blockquote> The liberated soul may desire to remain in a formless state in the Brahman existence, or instead to manifest a form and approach Bhagavan to serve Bhagavan in devotion. In his commentary to verse 2.2186 of Sri Brhadbhagavatamrtam, Srila Sanatan Gosvami quotes this verse by Shankaracarya: <blockquote> mukta api lilaya vigraham kritva bhagavantam bhajanta "Even the liberated assume a form and worship the Lord in his pastimes". </blockquote> Srila Sanatan Gosvami then quotes Srimad Bhagavatam 6.14.5 <blockquote> muktanam api siddhanam narayana parayana "The liberated and perfected souls are engaged in Narayan's service." </blockquote> Srila Sanatan Goswami then asks himself: <blockquote> If liberated souls didn't have forms then how could they engage in the Lord's service? </blockquote> The answer he gives to this quesion he has asked himself: <blockquote> Bhagavati layam praptasyapi nri dehasya mahamuneh punar narayana rupena pradurbhavah. "Even those who have merged into the Lord have dormant human forms." </blockquote>

Let me tell you something.... The scriptures say that you NEVER get given a spiritual body by your Guru. If a Vaishnava can see your soul he can say to you what he is seeing. But no Vaishnava will ever give you a spiritual body because this is not the way things happen. Anyone who teaches something contrary to this is teaching a mistaken philosophy. Bas. End of story. I feel no envy of Ananta das Babaji. He has nothing I want. And why should I need to approach him when I already got everthing I need from Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj, a sincere disciple of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Prabhupada. Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj gave me this mantra: HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE HARE RAMA HARE RAMA RAMA RAMA HARE HARE I don't feel envious of Ananta das Babaji since there is nothing I need or want from him. I need nothing more than this HARE KRISHNA MANTRA, which I received from a disciple of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Prabhupada. This mantra is all anyone needs in order to attain the perfectional stage as a servitor of the lotus feet of Sri Rupa Manjari in Vraja. Study Brhadbhagavatamrtam, written by Srila Sanatan Goswami, very carefully. Indeed it is in Brhadbhagavatamrtam where we can see very clearly that a jiva never needs to learn about "siddha-pranali" in order to enter into the lila in Goloka. Such knowledge is unnecessary. Nor do you need to learn about ekadasa bhava. All a soul needs is this HARE KRISHNA MANTRA. It is unnecessary and perhaps injurious to give newcomers instructions about siddha-deha, as the scriptures clearly explain that you will get that knowlege when you reach the stage where you need that knowledge. Again, what is the value for a man to meditate on his siddha-deha just before he is going into his bedroom to engage in a different type of meditation: the meditation upon the form of a lingam that a man enjoys when he is practicing making babies with his wife. If a man enjoys that meditation upon the form of a lingam sometimes, then he hasn't reached the stage of devotion where meditation upon his siddha-deha is appropriate. Excuse me if this statement seems impolite, but the statement is certainly true. If you got this HARE KRISHNA MANTRA from Ananta das Babaji then I believe you can attain perfection through that mantra. What more can I say than this?

So if a devotee doesnt fall down form vaikuntha, and i understand there is the seed of devotion when we fall from tatashta, what is meant by constitutional position? ========================= response: I don't know what that means. But I do know that the jiva originates in tatastha. The light of Brahman. There is stated in Vedanta Sutra and Brahma Samhita Do we already have a form which is innate in us or is it not fixed? ============== We have an innate form but it is not fixed. See Brhadbhagavatmrtam and Vedanta Sutra. Vedanta Sutra states that the soul can have a form or no form, according to his desire.