muralidhar_das

Madhava: <blockquote> If memory serves, he was at the bank of the river while meditating on his manjari-svarupa and then came across the anklet. He certainly was acquainted with his manjari-deha prior to the incident. There are several versions to the story, but I can't recall any of them differing in this respect. </blockquote> I believe it happened in Seva Kunja. I have been shown the place. It is opposite the front gate of Radha-Syamsundar mandir, just behind Paramadvaiti Swami's bookshop. And.... if you say he was "acquainted with his manjari-deha prior to the incident" then how did he become aquainted with it, because, as everyone knows, Hridaya Chaitanya was in sakhya-rasa. I have heard the story from disciples in that Syamananda lineage and they don't tell it the way you do. In fact, Madhava, you may know the person who told me this story. Do you know Lala Gopala from Sweden? I haven't seen him for ten years. Do you have any knowledge of him?

Madhava said: <blockquote> I didn't get a satisfactory answer to my response to your point about Jagannath Das Babaji. You said he didn't practice siddha-pranali, to which I pointed out that I have even myself seen siddha-pranalikas traced through him, pranalikas that he obviously gave to his disciples. You then replied that you follow the siksha-parampara. However that doesn't change the fact that the evidence of Jagannath Das Babaji's having followed the "siddha-pranali system" is irrefutable. </blockquote>Maybe Jagannath Das Babaji did give siddha-pranali to his sisyas, in which case I was wrong to say otherwise. Maybe Bhaktivinode Thakur gave it too. But we have known for many years that Srila Saraswati Thakur didn't accept the diksa-guru of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur as a great spiritual authority. We do accept Jagannath Das Babaji as our Gurudev but we don't follow the tradition he followed in those days. Srila Sridhar Maharaj: <blockquote> We have to follow the spirit; otherwise after Jahnava devi, the wife of Lord Nityananda, up to Bipina Goswami, from whom Bhaktivinoda Thakur took initiation, there are so many unknown lady gurus. Through them, the mantra came to Bipina Goswami, and from him Bhaktivinoda Thakur received the mantra. We accept Bhaktivinoda Thakur, but should we count all those ladies in our disciplic succession? What was their realization? </blockquote>

Madhava: <blockquote> However even yourself, you're now saying that there was "a palm-leaf with the names of the siddha-gurus listed on it". Doesn't that mean it is necessary, then? </blockquote> No. And while we are on the topic of unanswered questions, what about these: When the sages saw Ram and desired to be born as ladies to enjoy his company in madhura-rasa, did any of them have any training in a siddha-pranali gurukula? When Syamananada found the anklet and felt bliss through it, and his meeting with Lalita Devi, did Lalita Devi tell him anything about a siddha-pranali? The siddha-pranali tradition which Jayakrishnadas Babaji represents is a different school of thought from what was taught in Vraja by the Six Goswamis and their immediated successors.

Nice quote, that is given above. This is suitable advice for people who have a fixed and pure understanding of the form of their siddha-deha. But if you still have anarthas and you like to enjoy lady-love, should you engage in this type of meditation when you are enjoying lady-love? Or will you do this while watching TV? Mahaprabhu says, "remember this always". Are you really engaged in continuous smarana? I'm not. For people who are not free from anarthas, this type of sadhana is not appropriate, according to Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati. Srila Sridhar Maharaj told us to focus on the sound of Krishna's name. The sound. Guest said: <blockquote> Apart from the fact that Gaudiya Vaishnavas are aiming for Golok Vrindavan and not Vaikuntha, you do know what sarupya-mukti means, don't you? It means attainment of a form like Sriman Narayana's. If you're suggesting that a form resembling Sriman Narayana's is inherent (and dormant) within the soul and "comes out" at liberation, then I'm afraid I do not know what to do with this argument. </blockquote> Yes I know what sarupya is. What I was thinking, when reading the Vedanta written by Vyasa, is that in the Age when he wrote the vedanta-sutra his audience would have been the sages, and that he was tying to describe a stage of realization above mere merging into the light of Brahman. You asked me if I've read any of the Goswami's books. Yes, I've read this: <blockquote>Brhadbagavatmrtam 2.2.141-4 According to the specific form and nature of the Supreme Lord that they worship and meditate on as their beloved, the devotees attain a form like the Lord's. In this way they manifest many different forms and opulences. They have forms like the Lord's incarnations, as humans, sages, demigods, and philosophers, and as the Lord's incarnations as Matsya, Kurma, Varaha, Nrsimha, Vamana, Shiva, Brahma, Indra, Sesa, Surya, Vayu, Vahni, and many other forms. They also attain four-handed forms, and still other forms, with the specific garments and features of the Lord. </blockquote> Guest, as you see in these verses, not all residents of Vaikuntha will have four hand forms. According to this, you get the form that is suitable for you to be an associate of your cherished Deity. Oh, and if you don't tell me your name then I won't be responding to anything you say, anymore.

Guest critic, why don't you tell us your name? Are you feeling a little SPINELESS today?

In this article by Jagat: http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET9906/ET10-4071.html <blockquote> The young Babaji said, 'I don't know what a guru-pranali is. I never asked my guru anything about it.'Jaya Krishna Das explained to him, 'The guru on the path of raganuga devotion always gives the guru-pranali to his disciple. The entire line of disciplic succesion is found on it - the names of the guru, parama-guru, paratpara-guru and so on. With the disciplic succession, the guru also gives the siddha-pranali. In the siddha-pranali, the guru gives the identities of the disciple and all the line of gurus' spiritual bodies - their colour, age, ornamentation, favoured type of service, etc. Serving Radha and Krishna in the siddha manjari body given by the mercy of the perfected guru under his guidance, is called raganuga worship. This kind of worship is the only means by which one can attain to the loving service of Radha and Krishna. I want to teach you this. You will have to return home to get this information about your disciplic succession from your guru.' </blockquote> We read this statement: "Serving Radha and Krishna in the siddha manjari body given by the mercy of the perfected guru under his guidance, is called raganuga worship." However, Bhaktirasamrtasindhu 1.2.291 states: tatra adhikari: ragatmikaika-nistha ye vraja-vasi-janadayah tesam bhavaptaye lubdho bhaved atradhikaravan Those eligible for Raganuga Bhakti: Those who have the feeling: "I want feelings of attraction for Krishna like Ragatmikaikanistha, the feelings felt by the Vrajabasis, the eternal residents of Vraja" - they are eligible to engage in Raganuga Bhakti. In his commentary, Srila Vishvanatha Cakravarti Prabhu points out that in this verse Sri Rupa Gosvami has defined raganuga bhakti. Here, Sri Rupa Goswami states that those individuals who in their intrinsic nature feel an intense longing and firm attachment for service following in the wake of the feelings and sentiments of the residents of Vrindaban, with no thought or attraction for the majesties of the Godhead, are alone eligible for following in the way of raganuga bhakti. The person eligible for raganuga bhakti may spontaneously follow Sri Radha and other Gopis in madhura rati, Nanda-Yasoda and others in vatsalya rati, Sridama-Sudama and others in sakhya rati, or Citraka-Patraka and others in dasya rati. Srila Rupa Goswami never spoke of the need of meditation on a siddha-pranali in Bhaktirasamrtasindhu. Neither did Sanatan Goswami mention it in Brhadbhagavatamrtam where he carefully describes the whole process sadhana bhakti. I choose to follow the teachings of Sanatan Goswami, who described in Brhadbhagavatamrtam how a soul can attain his perfection in Goloka. That soul who entered Vaikuntha, Gopakumar, didn't know his "guru-pranali" or "siddha-pranali" and still he attained Goloka. The boy who went to Jaya Krishna Das was in a similar situation. But we may suggest that since Gopakumar never ever learned his Guru Pranali, he would have been rejected if he came to Jaya Krishna Das for guidance about raganuga bhakti. As Madhusudan Das Babaji was rejected. But even with rejection, such as the rejection and abuse that Srila Saraswati Thakur was given by the false babajis, in view of the fact that Gaurkishore das Babaji never gave him a "certificate" to prove he was a disciple, even in view of this, our Guru Parampara is continuing. Wonderfully. All over the world.

I presented this verse from Padma Purana quoted by Baladeva: <blockquote> anur nityo vyapti-silas cid-anandatmakas tatha aham artho 'vyayah saksi bhinna-rupah sanatanah "The soul is atomic, eternal, is present by consciousness everywhere in the material body, is by nature full of spiritual bliss and knowledge, has a sense of individual identity, is unchanging, is a witness within the body, and is different from the Supreme." </blockquote> and this verse from Brahma samhita: <blockquote> yad-bhava-bhavita-dhiyo manujas tathaiva samprapya rupa-mahimasana-yana-bhusah suktair yam eva nigama-prathitaih stuvanti govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami I adore the same Govinda, the primeval Lord, in whose praise men, who are imbued with devotion, sing the mantra-suktas told by the Vedas, by gaining their appropriate beauty, greatness, thrones, conveyances and ornaments. </blockquote> To which Mr.Anonymous replied: <blockquote> Thise verse spoke nothing about the "siddha-deha" being inherent within the soul or some such whatever you are presenting. It simply said that the soul's nature is blissful and that the soul is a witness in the body. This doesn't say anything about a siddha-deha being inherent. Your second verse also didn't prove anything along these lines. </blockquote> I tried to say that these verses sum up what I understand about this topic. Let me make a few points, based on the direct statement of these verses: 1) the soul is sat-chit-ananda. Nothing less. And for readers who haven't been told this before, it is a belief of many "Vrindaban Babajis" that the jiva soul is not imbued with innate bliss (ananda). And in regard to the form of the baddha-jiva, I really don't know what they say. But according to this verse, the baddha-jiva has a form. A form that is sat-chit-ananda. 2) The soul attains his transcendental realization through chanting mantra-suktas told by the Vedas. Chanting gives us everything. Naturally and spontaneously, true realization will arise in the heart. 3) ...samprapya rupa-mahimasana-yana-bhusah - in Brahma samhita Mr.Anonymous, could you please translate the meaning of the word "rupa" in this verse? <blockquote> There is one more verse I'd like to add here: ceto-darpana-marjanam bhava-maha-dava nirvapanam sreyah kairava candrika-vitaranam vidya-vadhu-jivanam anandambudh ivardhanam prati-padam purnamrtasvadanam sarvatma-snapanam param vijayate sri-krsna-sankirtanam The holy name of Krishna cleanses the mirror of the heart and extinguishes the fire of misery in the forest of birth and death. As the evening lotus blooms in the moon's cooling rays, the heart begins to blossom in the nectar of the name. And at last the soul awakens to its real inner treasure a life of love with Krishna. Again and again tasting nectar, the soul dives and surfaces in the ever-increasing ocean of ecstatic joy. All phases of the self of which we may conceive are fully satisfied and purified, and at last conquered by the all-auspicious influence of the holy name of Krishna. </blockquote> ceto-darpana-marjanam: cleansing the mirror of the heart. First cleanse the heart so when you reflect on things, inwardly, your pure consciousness and pure self will arise. This is what the Great Master, Himself, taught. This is Gaudiya Siddhanta. Aside from this, Mr.Anonymous again and again says that this process of "siddha-pranali" has been followed by all the Gaudiya Vaishnavas up until the time of Prabhupada Srila Saraswati Thakura. But that is not true. Indeed, even in the lifetime of Jayakrishna das Babaji there were people who were not following this, and Jayakrishna das Babaji in fact told one Bengali youth who came to him for instruction to return to his Guru in Bengal and find out his "siddha-pranali" before the youth could begin to practice raganuga-bhakti. The boy told him, "I don't know anything about siddha-pranali. My Guru never told me anything about it." What is more, there is no mention of a need for knowing siddha pranali in the books of the Goswamis (as I have said before, ad nauseum). And as I've also said before, ad nauseum, the sages who saw Ram and wanted to become ladies never had any siddha-pranali. They only had "om bhu bhuvah svah tat savitur varenyam". Yes there was an orthodox tradition that preached you must know your "siddha-pranli". But sometimes traditions need to be reformed. The idea that you need to know the "siddha-pranali" before you can practice raganuga bhakti is wrong.

<blockquote> I do not think that they support the proposition that you are presenting. Is that the only reason why you rely on them by any chance, because they support your position? By the way, even though I personall have no problem with Krishnananda's translation, it is not acceptable to orthodox Advaitins with whom I have had discussions with on this very subject. In any case, the sutras contained in the Fourth Adhyaya do not, in my opinion, validate a description that you to. </blockquote> My my, do I only quote these things because they support my argument? No. And while I don't know which advatins you have spoken to about this, I would suggest that the orthodox Advaitin position is "aham brahmasmi" and that the soul in illusion has forgotten this fact of "aham brahmasmi", but when the soul becomes liberated he is supposed to realize, according to all the Advaitins I have met, that "I am non-different from Brahman, the Oneness of Brahman". And in fact in the following section of Brahma sutra the issue that is discussed is that when a jiva becomes liberated he has the powers of Brahman, except the capacity to create a universe, and suchlike. My understanding of what Badarayana is giving here, in this Adhyaya, is his description of the attainment of sarupya mukti. Badarayana, Vyasa, would have had this Vaikuntha understanding. I believe he did understand that the soul manifests its full form and glory and then enters the gateway of Vaikuntha, as the four Kumaras did. You may feel that your eighteenth-nineteenth century predecessors who imagined that the soul is given a spiritual body are speaking from REALIZATION, but I think Badarayana, Vyasa, dealt with this long ago and that his realization is superior.

<blockquote> The questions I woul like to ask are; how did Sri Bhaktisiddhanta know what his svarup-siddhi was? It was revealed to him? How? And how did he know the manjari-name of Kunja babu (Bhakti Vilas Tirtha Maharaja)? Did he know the manjari-names of Srila Prabhupada or Srila Sridhara Maharaja, and Srila Bhakti Pramod Puri Maharaja? If he did, why didn't he reveal it to them? Please don't take offense, I am genuinely curious.</blockquote> I don't know how he know what his swarup siddhi is. I only know that he wrote these things in that letter. History.

quote <blockquote> We should ask Muralidhar to elaborate more on this "present-day siddhapranali", for as far as I was are it is not practised in any way in Gaudiya Math and ISKCON. </blockquote> If you are referring to my mention of the fact that Srila Saraswati Thakur told Kunja Babu (Srila B.V.Tirtha Maharaj) "you are Bimala Manjari", I am simply repeating what is written in that letter. The letter is well known. There is a reference to it at the start of Yati Maharaj's edition of Srimad Bhagavatam. But I don't think this "name giving" is the same thing as "siddha-pranali". And anonymous... sometimes, since Jagat and Madhava are so close, it is hard to tell if you are reading Jagat and Madhava. Telltale words you use such as "ad nauseaum" remind me of Madhava.

Kailasa, Is there an translation of Jaiva Dharma you can read in Russian? Please read Jaiva Dharma.

Raga wrote: <blockquote> Did you notice the account of Gopal Bhatta Goswami bestowing kama-gayatri and siddha-deha to Shrinivas, cited in the document I posted? I believe that's an important precedent. Now, one may say that there isn't a pranali given there, just the siddha-deha of Gopal Bhatta and of his disciple, Shrinivas. However, consider this: That's all there was to the pranali at that time, since Gopal Bhatta is one of the ashta-manjaris and hence at the root of the pranali. </blockquote> I don't think any of the Gaudiya Math Acharyas would see this as particularly relevant to the main issue being discussed. We know that Prabhupad Srila Saraswati Thakur told Kunja Babu about his swarup-siddhi. There is a letter from Prabhupad Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur to Kunja Babu in which he says, "I am Nayananandana Manjari and you are Bimala Manjari". So none of our Gaudiya Math Acharyas are going to say that no Guru can tell a disciple what the disciple's siddha-swarup is. And Raga, in this quote above you talk of Sree Gopal Bhatta Goswami "bestowing siddha-deha to Shrinivas". I can't see that in this story we find he was "giving" siddha-deha to Shrinivas. We might just as easily say that Gopal Bhatta Goswami was giving him knowledge so he could awaken from the sleep of mundane existence and realize his innate, awakened self. The real issue at stake is that according to Jayakrishna das Babaji and his followers, all the "traditionalist" Gurus should tell the disciple the details of the "siddha-pranali". In the well known story of Madhusudana das Babaji, he didn't get told this by his Guru. Then when Madhusudana das Babaji couldn't find his Guru later on, after Jayakrishna das Babaji told him he needed to find out the details of the "siddha-pranali" in order to be taught raganuga-sadhana, Madhusudana das Babaji went to drown himself in Radha-kunda. He felt totally hopeless. But then the next thing happened. Srimate Radharani saved him from drowning and gave him the document he needed, a palm-leaf with the names of the siddha-gurus listed on it. Previously, Raga, you said that you feel that this story shows that Srimate Radharani approved of the convention propagated by Jayakrishna das Babaji, that a person needed to have this document listing his siddha-pranali before a person was engaged in raganuga sadhana. But I believe this is just a meaning that you choose to infer from the story. Other readings of the story are also possible. And added to that is the fact that when Syamananda Prabhu found the anklet of Sri Radha, simply coming in contact with that anklet awakened manjari-bhava within him. When in fact he had been inititated by a sahkya-bhava Guru, Hridaya-Caitanya Prabhu. What is more, none of the sages who saw Ramchandra and desired to be born as ladies in the next life so they could experience madhurya-bhava, none of those sages were initiated into any siddha-pranali tradition. And they became Gopis in their next lifetime. In fact, they didn't even get initiated with any Krishna-mantra. In all probability, the mantra they got initiated with by their guru was that mantra beginning with the words, "om bhu bhuvah swah tat savitur varenyam".

A Guest wrote: <hr><font color="blue"> <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to Muralidhar, who wrote:</font><hr /> Your interpretation of the word "attained" is wrong my friend. Indeed, Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusan specifically deals with this point in his Govinda Bhasya commentary. <hr /></blockquote> anonymous wrote: Like others, I question the authenticity of the translation that you are using. <hr> </font color> Huh? question the authenticity? I have made the file available for you to read. We might discuss the accuracy of the translation, but when you say you "question the authenticity", it seems you are saying I'm trying to cheat people or propogate lies. Well, I have known Madhava for a few years and I've had a number of discussions with him about the very topic we are discussing now. If I presented an "inauthentic" presentation, surely it would come back to haunt me later on. People know my name. I am not "anonymous". I am not trying to lie or deceive you with bogus, inauthentic texts. <font color="blue"> <blockquote> Also, I notice that the file that you kindly linked to only contains the Fourth Adhyaya. Do you happen to have the Third? The translation you are using contradicts the commentaries of Sankaracharya and Ramanujacharya as far as I have seen. More later. Or not.. </blockquote> </font color> Yes I have the complete Govinda Bhasya. And the reason I posted the links to Sivananda Swami's edition of Brahma Sutra and Sri Ramanuja's edition is that both these editions do support the proposition I'm presenting. Which is, that the soul does not get given a new form or new body when he is liberated. Rather, you awaken in full awareness of your own inner wealth. In discussions I had some time ago with people at Madhava's website, other people there looked up their editions of Govinda Bhasya and confirmed that the section I have presented is indeed present in their edition of Govinda Bhasya. Specifically this verse from the Padma Purana quoted by Baladeva: anur nityo vyapti-silas cid-anandatmakas tatha aham artho 'vyayah saksi bhinna-rupah sanatanah "The soul is atomic, eternal, is present by consciousness everywhere in the material body, is by nature full of spiritual bliss and knowledge, has a sense of individual identity, is unchanging, is a witness within the body, and is different from the Supreme." Indeed, this verse above and the verse below (which I also presented previously), sum up most of what I am trying to say. As the verse below says, by singing the glories of Govinda a man will gain his appropriate "form (rupa), greatness, ornaments, etc". yad-bhava-bhavita-dhiyo manujas tathaiva samprapya rupa-mahimasana-yana-bhusah suktair yam eva nigama-prathitaih stuvanti govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami I adore the same Govinda, the primeval Lord, in whose praise men, who are imbued with devotion, sing the mantra-suktas told by the Vedas, by gaining their appropriate beauty, greatness, thrones, conveyances and ornaments. In regard to your statement that madhurya-rasa is the highest rasa and the highest goal of life for the Gaudiya Vaishnavas, I agree, totally. But not everyone who comes under the banner of Sri Chaitanya's sankirtan movement will feel inclined to enter into madhurya-rasa. Thus, Sanatan Goswami has described the glories of Sakhya-rasa in Brhadbhagavatamrtam, etc.. Anonymous guest said:<font color="blue"> <blockquote> It appears that Shiva is arguing with Raga about the latter's document and the idea that only manjari-bhava can be taught. Well, this is also what the Acaryas say... </blockquote> </font color> You are wrong to say that the Acaryas say only manjari-bhava can be taught. Other things are to be taught, which are more important for the practitioners of Seva. In fact my own Guru Maharaj, Srila B. R. Sridhar Maharaj was extremely dismissive of people who take this "imitative gopi-bhava" approach to sadhana-bhakti. My Guru's main teaching is "trnad api sunicena, taror api sahisnuna". That is the general instruction, for everyone to follow. Discussions about manjari-bhava are not such a cheap thing that any tom, dick, or Haridas das should think it is his business to intrude upon. One last thing, anonymous critic. Can you please give yourself some sort of name, so we can identify you.

Sri Chaitanyadeva said: nitya-siddha krsna-prema 'sadhya' kabhu naya sravan adi-suddha-citte karaye udaya "Pure love for Krsna is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens." - Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 22.107

I don't have the Sanskrit at my disposal today. It is on a CD but I am not in a position to access that data right now. The translation I have of Govinda Bhasya was given to me by Sripad Visnu Swami, Sripad Narasingha Maharaj's associate. I haven't visited you-know-where for some time now. I have decided not to visit there anymore since I don't want to disturb your sangha, or be disturbed by the things some people there say. If you have anything interesting in regard to this topic you can email me at my email address. Then again, can you please advise me where in Bhaktirasamrtasindhu the interesting things that you have found are, and I will take a look in the translations I have with me. We have Srila Sridhar Maharaj's bengali edition here in my house, and I have a native Bengli speaker living with me now. Indeed, his family are brahmins and they were members of the Syamananda Parivar for a couple of hundred years, before they came into the sampradaya of our Srila Saraswati Thakur Prabhupada. My friend studied Sanskrit at a school in Nabadwip for five years before he came here. He is a big help to me in my spiritual life. I have looked into this topic in depth and other commentators also present the same conclusions as Baladeva Vidyabhusana. See http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/bs_4/bs_4-4-01.html for Swami Sivananda's translation: quote: <blockquote> The Purvapakshin holds that the Jiva or the individual soul which has freed itself from identification with the three bodies attains emancipation after realising Brahman. Release also is a fruit like other fruits, e.g., Svarga or heaven. Manifestation means as much as origination. Liberation was not a pre-existent thing. It is something that is newly acquired like heaven, as the word 'reaches' in the text clearly indicates. Therefore emancipation is something new that is acquired by the individual soul. If the manifestation took place only through the self's own nature, it would already appear in the self's former states, because a thing's own nature is never absent in it. The present Sutra refutes this view and says that the word 'own' indicates that emancipation was a pre-existent thing. The individual soul manifests its own, essential divine nature which was so long covered by ignorance (Avidya). This is his attainment of the final beatitude or release. It is certainly nothing that is newly acquired. </blockquote> I have also studied Ramanuja's commentary, which I have in a few different translations. Here is an online translation: http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe48/sbe48552.htm <blockquote> The Purvapakshin.. conclude(s) that on approaching the highest light the soul connects itself with a new form only then brought about. On this view the term 'accomplishes itself' is taken in its direct sense, and the expression 'in its own shape' also is suitable in so far as the soul accomplishes itself in a nature specially belonging to it and characterised by absolute bliss. --This view the Sûtra rejects. That special condition into which the soul passes on having, on the path of the Gods, approached the highest light is a manifestation of its own true nature, not an origination of a new character. For this is proved--by the specification implied in the term 'own,' in the phrase 'in its own nature.' If the soul assumed a new body, this specification would be without meaning; for, even without that, it would be clear that the new body belongs to the soul. </blockquote> The above translation is a not good, but it is clear enough in saying that the soul doesn't get a new body when he is liberated. Rather (s)he manifests the eternal form that lay dormant when (s)he was in illusion.

quote from Kailasa: <blockquote> where in "authentic Gaudiya tattva" have you found teachings on dasya, vatsalya and sakhya-bhakti? Fair enough that you quoted CC. However, where in "authentic Gaudiya tattva" have you found teachings on dasya, vatsalya and sakhya-bhakti? In Nectar Devotion. You read? No? </blockquote> Correct. There is elaborate information in Bhaktirasamrtasindu (nectar of devotion) about dasya, vatsalya and sakhya-bhakti.

quote: <blockquote> Would you mind explaining to us all the meaning of the terms guru-pranali and parampara? </blockquote> Guru pranali means Guru-parampara. Siddha Pranali is another matter. It is the listing of Gurus in a parampara according to their siddha-identities, as manjaris, and it is always a list of diksa-gurus and their disciples. Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati received diksa mantra from Srila Gaurkishore das Babaji. Who was the diksa-guru of Srila Gaurkishore das Babaji? Someone who was in the family line of Sri Advaita Acharya, I have heard. But I don't even know his name - and it doesn't matter to me or my Guru (Srila Sridhar Maharaj), either. The line of Siksa-Gurus is the real line of our Parampara. Gaurkishore das babaji received his babaji status from Bhagavat das Babaji, who received his babaji status and siksa from Jagannatha das Babaji, who received siksa from... devotees in the Rupanuga Guru-varga. .

quote: <blockquote> Fair enough that you quoted CC. However, where in "authentic Gaudiya tattva" have you found teachings on dasya, vatsalya and sakhya-bhakti? </blockquote> The book "Brhadbhagavatamrtam" by Srila Sanatan Goswami is a detailed study of the practicing life and of a devotee in sakhya-bhava. In fact this book gives an extremely detailed description of the evolution of a soul through the various stages of devotion (sadhu-sangha, sraddha, bhajan-kriya, anartha-nivritti, nistha, ruci, asakti, bhava, prema). And when the sadhaka attains prema, it is in sakhya-bhava.

quote: <blockquote> "Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura writes in this connection that Sri Radha-kunda is the most select place for those interested in advancing their devotional service in the wake of the lady friends (sakhis) and confidential serving maids (manjaris) of Srimati Radharani. Living entities who are eager to return home to the transcendental kingdom of God, Goloka Vrndavana, by means of attaining their spiritual bodies (siddha-deha) should live at Radha-kunda, take shelter of the confidential serving maids of Sri Radha and under their direction engage constantly in Her service. This is the most exalted method for those engaged in devotional service under the protection of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu." Note the use of the word "attained". If the spiritual body is within oneself as some here are saying, then where is the question of attainment? </blockquote> Your interpretation of the word "attained" is wrong my friend. Indeed, Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusan specifically deals with this point in his Govinda Bhasya commentary. <blockquote> <font color="blue"> Vedanta Sütra 4.4.1 sampadyävirbhävaù svena-çabdät sampadya—of he who has attained; ävirbhävaù—manifestation; svena—svena; çabdät—by the word. Because of the word "svena" it is the manifestation of he who has gone. Commentary by Çréla Baladeva Vidyäbhüñaëa The individual soul who, by means of devotional service accompanied with knowledge and renunciation, attains the effulgent Supreme, becomes free from the bondage of karma and attains a body endowed with eight virtues. This body is said to be the soul's original form. Why is that? The sütra explains, "svena-çabdät" (because of the word "svena"). The word "svena" here means, "in his own original form". For this reason it cannot be said that this passage means, "the soul arrives there and then accepts a form which is an external imposition". In that way it is proved that the form here is the original form of the soul. This is not contradicted by the use of the word "niñpadyate" in the verse of Chändogya Upaniñad, for that word is also used to mean, "is manifested". An example of that usage is seen in the following words found elsewhere the Çruti-çästra: idam ekaà su-niñpannam "He is manifested." Also, it is not that the manifestation of the soul's original form cannot be a goal of human endeavour, because it already exists. This is so because even though the soul's original form exists it is not openly manifested. Therefore it is not useless to say that the soul may endeavour to make manifest the original form of the soul. </font color> </blockquote> You can download a 170kb document containing this entire section of Baladev's commentary to Vedanta here: http://www.mandala.com.au/books/vedanta.RTF

I really can't understand why some devotees want to abuse "Hinduism" when Krishnadas Kaviraj Goswami himself said the devotees of Mahaprabhu who danced with him in his sankirtan are the Hindus. It is there in Chaitanya Charitamrta Adi 17.192-202

quote: <blockquote> When I think that Prabhupada & Bhaktisiddhanta have not given 'siddha pranali' and that I really need to find a Radha-kunda babaji from the 'traditional parivars' to give me knowledge of my 'siddha deha'...is that what you mean by 'seeking a mental goal for reasons of personal vanity'??? </blockquote> No. I was thinking more in terms of one lady who used to frequent these forums, who was following the "gopi bhava" path, and who used to mock Uddhava because Uddhava said he said he wanted to become a blade of grass in Vraja in his next life. The gopi-bhava lady used to say "Radhey Radhey" all the time, and she really wanted to be a gopi and nothing less than a gopi. Oh, by the way, there is this book I wrote which details the history of the Gaudiya Sampraday in the 17th-20th centuries. http://www.mandala.com.au/books/sixgoswamis.pdf

Kailasa, What you are saying is very good. We understand you are learning English and that it is not easy. But your ideas are good. Very good for us to read.

Very nice, Shiva. And this is an interesting point that you have brought up here. Following on from what you say, we might suggest that the people who have been told "manjari bhava is the highest" and who then want to attain the highest thing may not be real raganuga practitioners at all. Rather, they may be people seeking a mental goal for reasons of personal vanity.

quote: <blockquote>"Jayakrishna das babaji of Vraja, who lived in the 17th century, 200 years after Mahaprabhu Sri Chaitanyadeva, was responsible for popularising the doctrine of Siddha Pranali. He was a very influential babaji in this period, after the departure from this world of Baladeva Vidyabhusana. There is some precedent for this doctrine in the writings of Dhyanachandra Goswami, a disciple of Gopala Guru Goswami, but the Siddha Pranali theory as taught by Jayakrishna das babaji introduced some added beliefs that were not enunciated previously. " Could you please elaborate on the differences between Dhyanachandra Gosvami's concept of siddha-pranali, and the siddha-pranali taught/practiced by Jayakrishna das? Are these differences significant from a doctrinal standpoint? </blockquote> Madhavananda may be right in saying that Jayakrishna das babaji was living a little later, say at the beginning of the eighteenth century. Some details of his life are recorded in the Gaudiya Vaishnava Abhidana written by Haridas das, a book that is full of many errors; I mainly know of him from that source and from discussions with followers of the "siddha-pranali" tradition such as Madhavananda. May I say, I respect Madhavananda and I respect his right to follow the path he has chosen. But I do disagree on many points with the conclusions he and his fellow travellers believe in. Specifically, the so-called "traditionalists" follow the ideas of Jayakrishna das babaji who taught that a person needs to know the manjari name, features and ornamentation of his Guru and the predecessor Gurus before the disciple can engage in raganuga sadhana bhakti. In Bhaktirasamrtasindhu (verse 1.2.291), Srila Rupa Goswamipada presented his opinion about what the qualifications are, for someone who wants to engage in raganuga bhakti. He wrote: tatra adhikari: ragatmikaika-nistha ye vraja-vasi-janadayah tesam bhavaptaye lubdho bhaved atradhikaravan Those eligible for Raganuga Bhakti: Those who have the feeling: "I want feelings of attraction for Krishna like Ragatmikaikanistha, the feelings felt by the Vrajabasis, the eternal residents of Vraja" - they are eligible to engage in Raganuga Bhakti. That is, anyone who feels an attraction for Krishna the son of Nanda is eligible to engage in Raganuga Bhakti. You need a to take initiation in the Krishna-mantra from a genuine Guru, of course; but you don't need to know any descriptions of your siddha-deha or your Gurus siddha-deha. In the tradition followed by Madhavananda the Guru will tell a disciple about his siddha-deha and tell the disciple his manjari name. But Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur said that this is all unnecessary, for when the heart is purified by hearing and chanting the Holy Names this knowledge of the siddha-deha will spontaneously awaken. There is no need to sit and meditate on your siddha-deha each morning, before you go out to the coffee shop for a capuccino and buttered toast. Just meditate on the Hare Krishna mantra, the best of all mantras. And another point also: as was mentioned earlier, Baladeva Vidyabhusan taught that the siddha-deha is within us already, and that a devotee does not enter into a spiritual body or "manjari-svarupa specifically reserved for him" (to use Madhavananda's words). Either Baladeva & Vyasa are right on this point when they say that the spiritual body is latent within us, or the modern-day babajis are right when they say a spiritual body is "reserved" for you and you enter into that suit that is waiting for you in some closet in the spiritual world. I personally choose to follow Baladeva Vidyabusana & Vyasadev. But some other folks choose to follow a different teaching.

The siddha-pranali of Srila Jagannath Das Babaji would be the line of his diksa-guru, Jagadananda Gosvami, would it not? The diksa parampara of Srila Jagannath Das Babaji is the lineage of Jagadananda Gosvami, whereas we who are disciples in the line of Srila Jagannath Das Babaji are more interested in the siksa, the inspiration that came from Visvanatha and Baladeva and was revealed in the heart of Srila Jagannath Das Babaji -- and which was transferred to the heart of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur. Also, according to Srila Jagannath Das Babaji's personal servant Bihari das Babaji, Srila Saraswati Thakur also met and associated with Srila Jagannath Das Babaji when he was a child. Srila Saraswati Thakur also directly associated with Srila Jagannath Das Babaji and he received his blessings. In our sampradaya which is coming from Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur, we are told to place more attention to the inspiration and teachings that flow down like the stream of the Mandakini. That stream flowed from Visvanatha to Baladeva, then to Jagannatha and Bhaktivinoda. This is the conclusion of Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati, and this is what you see listed in the Guru-parampara list given by Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami in the front of his Bhagavad-gita As It Is. The vesha guru of Srila Jagannath Das Babaji was Madhusudana das Babaji. Madhusudana das Babaji tried to kill himself because nobody would teach him how to perform sadhana (raganuga sadhana). But Srimate Radharani had mercy on him. He attained her grace simply through his sincerity. Others can do that too. You don't need a palm-leaf with words written on it to enter Goloka in the form of a Gopi. If that form is there within your heart it will manifest, naturally. Like in the example of the sages in Ram-lila who wanted to become gopis. None of them had a palm-leaf with names of siddha-gurus on it, and nobody ever told them about their ornamentation, but they entered Goloka anyway. yad-bhava-bhavita-dhiyo manujas tathaiva samprapya rupa-mahimasana-yana-bhusah suktair yam eva nigama-prathitaih stuvanti govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami I adore the same Govinda, the primeval Lord, in whose praise men, who are imbued with devotion, sing the mantra-suktas told by the Vedas, by gaining their appropriate beauty, greatness, thrones, conveyances and ornaments.