muralidhar_das

Classic HK disturbed cult member!

What particular things in Sri Krishna Samhita do you think are unacceptable or not promoted by Saraswati Thakura?

it is not so much the habits of the writer that is a problem for many Vaishnavas, as the fact that this books does not represent any recognized Vaishnava sampradaya. Most Gaudiyas reject that book outright and you also dont see Prabhupada or Bhaktisiddhanta presenting the approach to shastra Bhaktivinoda advocated in this work.

 

Vedas on the other hand are universally seen as authoritative. Thus your comparison above is seriously flawed.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura DID advocate the ideas taught in Sri Krishna Samhita.

I've said this before to you, Lowborn (and Kula). Should I repeat post the quotes?

Laulyam posted Saraswati Thakur's article about Kaliya on the other thread, where Saraswati Thakur said that Kaliya and the forest fire represent "CUNNING AND MALICE". This way of seeing the Bhagavatam is straight from Sri Krishna Samhita.

I can also post articles by Saraswati Thakur describing how there is evolution of souls through stages of growth, and that Narasimha worship is suitable for half-civilized men. This also is straight from Sri Krishna Samhita.

In Sri Krishna Chaitanya, by professor Sanyal, which has a foreward by Saraswati Thakur, we read numerous chapters based on ideas in Sri Krishna Samhita.

Srila Prabhupada, on the other hand, preferred to promote a "literalist" view of the stories in the Veda and Puranas. But again and again in the writing of Bhaktivinode Thakur he states that the Veda is the words of the ancient sages and that anyone who attains transcendental knowledge can find the essence of the Veda.

It is OM that is radiating forth the entire cosmos, from minerals to humankind. As sparks burst from a bonfire or as rays of light are emitted by the sun, the entire cosmos is produced by OM, the Everlasting and radiant Reality.

Thats a little confusing.

 

If Sridhar Maharaja said that only Govinda Maharaja is his authorized successor in the Matha, then that seems to mean that when Srila Govinda

Yes the person(s) succeeding Srila Govinda Maharaj as Acharya of Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math will be a disciple of Srila Govinda Maharaj.

This was all decided long ago.

Srila Sridhar Maharaj was a well wisher of ISKCON and he wanted to see it become successful. So when lots of dissatisfied and disenfranchised ISKCON people came to see him such as Hamsaduta, Jayatirtha and Bhakti Caru he tried to advise them how to continue their service and become successful in life.

At the same time Srila Sridhar Maharaj was very determined to continue his own Parampara and said that in his own Math only Srila Govinda Maharaj is authorized as his successor. He was asked by Prabhupada, "Please come and live with me in Mayapura", but Srila Sridhar Maharaj didn't want to do that. He regarded Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami as his friend, but at the same time Srila Sridhar Maharaj wanted his own disciples to continue his Parampara - totally separate from the Parampara of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

You don't see pictures of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami on the alter in any temple of Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math. You only see the pictures of Srila Sridhar Maharaj and his chosen successor.

It's just that without Srila Prabhupada I doubt seriously that any of the Godbrothers would have accomplished what Srila Prabhupada did.

 

Srila Prabhupada made the sacrifice to bring Krishna consciousness to the miserably fallen souls of the western world and I can't tolerate even the slightest hint of criticism that he did this wrong or he did that wrong...yada..yada..yada.

Nobody I know thinks anyone else among his Godbrothers could have achieved the wonderful things Prabhupada achieve. He was SUPER special

Gurudev says that and Guru Maharaj said it too. Yajabara Maharaj was the one who said first of all that Prabhupada is a "saktyavesha avatara". Lots of others praised him to the max. What more can I say?

Here is a picture taken at Mayapura. Notice that Guru Maharaj has lots of bowls of prashad. He wanted to taste every preparation offered that day to the Deities served by Prabhupada's disciples.

the person on the bottom right, next to Prabhupada, with his back to the camera, is Srila Govinda Maharaj

It looks like Damodara Maharaj and Satish Prabhu (Nayanananda das Babaji) sitting beside Guru Maharaj, but I'm not really sure.

KB why can't you be a bit more consistent. One minute you are saying none of the disciples of Saraswati Thakura were doing the right thing besides Srila Prabhupada because only Prabhupada went out and preached to the masses. The next thing, you are saying that there should be more bhajananandis. The bhajananandi's get abused for not being "preahers", and then you start saying that there should be more of them. Agggghhhhh... you can be so annoying sometimes!

Vikram are you connected to the sevaits at Radha-Syamasundara?

I know Krishna Ballabha and Mahesh. My Gurudev took us to have lunch at Krishna Ballabha's house adjoining the Mandir one time. I gave the first donation for the restoration work to complete the new temple of Krishnadas Kaviraja Goswami which is beside Radha-Syamasundara and Krishna Ballabha's house. It was a great honour to give that donation, because Krishnadas Kaviraj wrote most of the Chaitanya Charitamrta there.

 

As well, what is future for such institutions as Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math?

 

Who knows how ugly and disintegrated it will become after the passing of Srila Govinda Maharaja.

There will be many Acharyas in the future.

Srila Saraswati Thakur was the mastermind behind the GBC concept and international preaching efforts.

Srila Prabhupada was the only disciple that was actually able to fulfill this dream and this mission of Srila Saraswati Thakur.

 

None of these Gaudiya Matha splinter groups have any spotless record.

They all have their share of failures and f-ups.

 

For your information...

Srila Bhakti Saranga Goswami Maharaj left his body before Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami went to America. The preaching career of Srila Bhakti Saranga Goswami Maharaj ended before Srila Prabhupada's career began. In the twenty years that Srila Bhakti Saranga Goswami Maharaj was doing the service of preaching and initiating disciples, he opened 24 temples.

Well, Srila Prabhupada told that the Godbrothers ruined the Gaudiay Matha and since he was a disciple of Saraswati Thakur and you are not and since Srila Prabhupada was there to see it and you were not and since you get a very colored version of the events from one party line, there is a good chance that maybe your version of events doesn't jive with what Srila Prabhupada told.

 

To say that the Gaudiay Matha wasn't destroyed is simply a look at the brick and mortar.

If you look at the actual facts its quite obvious that his leading diciples failed to execute the orders and the mission of Srila Saraswati Thakur and branched out into splinter groups that dropped the ball on Srila Saraswati Thakur's mission.

 

Maybe you have a different opinion than Srila Prabhupada?

Your opinion is based on second hand information, party politics and an attempt at cover-up.

 

Srila Prabhupada was there and got the chance to observe the events from an objective viewpoint.

 

His opinion was based on the facts.

Your opinion is based on the cover-up over a half century later.

I guess things would be better in the world if everyone followed what they read in Bhagavad gita As It Is.

Here is one memorable statement in a purport from Bhagavad gita As It Is (16.7)

As for behavior, there are many rules and regulations guiding human behavior, such as the Manu-samhita, which is the law of the human race. Even up to today, those who are Hindu follow the Manu-samhita. Laws of inheritance and other legalities are derived from this book. Now, in the Manu-samhita, it is clearly stated that a woman should not be given freedom. That does not mean that women are to be kept as slaves, but they are like children. Children are not given freedom, but that does not mean that they are kept as slaves. The demons have now neglected such injunctions, and they think that women should be given as much freedom as men.

Let's try and introduce the Laws of Manu Samhita into society. That is what Mahaprabhu and Nitai preached when they went from door to door, isn't it?

Let's agitate to change society so that women are no longer able to vote. Let's agitate to change society so that the Manu Samhita and Prabhupada's books are the Law Books for humankind for the next 10,000 years.

"A low-caste man who tries to place himself on the same seat with a man of a high caste, shall be branded on his hip and be banished, or (the king) shall cause his buttock to be gashed." (VIII: 281)

"A Brahmana may confidently seize the goods of (his) Shudra; for, as that Shudra can have no property, his master may take his possessions." (VIII:417)

 

Don't put words in Srila Prabhupada's mouth.

He never appointed you to speak for him.

He never said anything about admitting his Godbrothers were right.

That's a lie.

 

These Gaudiya Matha Swamis all initiated lots of people who never kept up their vows or kept up any proper guru-seva, so there isn't one of them who is in a position to criticize Srila Prabhupada.

 

Who were they?

They appointed an acharya to the Gaudiya Matha that resulted in the ruination of the Gaudiya Math.

For these Gaudiya Matha sannyasis there could be no greater sin than the destruction of the mission of Srila Saraswati Thakur.

 

A least Srila Prabhupada didn't destroy the mission of his spiritual master like these "godbrothers" did.

 

None of them were in any position to criticise Srila Prabhupada.

 

Their ruination of the Gaudiya Matha and failure to follow the instrucions of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur nullified any right they had to criticize Srila Prabhupada who actually accomplished great things in service to his spiritual master while the "bell-ringers" sat around their Mathas waiting for people to drop a coin in the collection box.

Blah blah blah

The Gaudiya Math was never ruined. Many Missions have branched out of the original Gaudiya Math and they are doing fine.

This idea that Gaudiya Math devotees are simply sitting around waiting for people to drop money into the collection box is ridiculous. Worthy of ridicule.

ISKCON has its life member programs and other fundraising ventures that it employs to milk money from Indian people. If there were no Hindus in the West, where would ISKCON get supporters and money from? Western people in countries that were once ruled by the sannyasi kings (maharajas) who had control of the scam-kirtan movement (pick club), the ordinary people who live in those countries think Hare Krsna is a cult. And they are right!

Look at the scandals such as Kirtnanananda in Amerika, Bhavananda in Oz, Hamsaduta in Germany, Bhagavan in France, Jayatirtha in UK, Harikesa in USSR... The society these criminals created is a disturbance to the Sankirtan Movement of Mahaprabhu. That society is not "leading" the sankirtan movement. It is instead a degrading movement that has taken the pure ideal of sankirtan and transformed it into a scam-kirtan that generates wages for TP's and bell-ringers whose only achievement in life is that they are able to write the letters ACBSP after their name when they write down their name.

 

caitanya-caraNAMbhoje

yasyAsti prItir acyutA

vRndAtavIzayos tasya

bhaktisyAc chata-janmani

 

 

 

He who has developed unfailing love for the

lotus feet of Caitanya has been devoted

to the Lord and Mistress of Vrndavana forest

for hundreds of births.

(Sarvabhauma Sataka 17)

 

Wow I've never seen that before

Amazing

Sri Chaitanya came and showed the world Krishna. If we learn about Krishna from Sri Chaitanyadeva we will see Krishna is real. Many disciples of Sri Chaitanya saw Krishna in their spiritually awakened consciousness.

Sri Chaitanya said the Bhagavata Purana teaches us how to realize the REALITY of Krishna and many people followed Sri Chaitanya's advice and became Krishna Conscious.

If the other old books are corrupted, what does it matter??????

The ancient literature was kept by men in their houses for a thousand years, and in that time some of the ancient texts were altered. Indeed some texts that purport to be ancient were written by men in relatively recent times.

However, when Sri Chaitanyadeva appeared on Earth 500 years ago he showed humankind that God is not just a fable but a living Person. 500 years ago, Krishna Himself reappeared on Earth as Sri Chaitanyadeva and uplifted even very degraded men and made even them into saints with hearts filled with bliss. If you study the life and teachings of Sri Chaitanyadeva you will be amazed, and your heart will also be filled with happiness.

So simply by chanting the holy name the nine processes of proper sadhana bhakti can be fulfilled. So what is in 8.16 that you think contradicts this?

simply by PURE chanting of the holy name the nine processes of proper sadhana bhakti can be fulfilled

That is the point I'm making

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 8.16

bahu janma kare yadi śravaṇa, kīrtana

tabu ta' nā pāya kṛṣṇa-pade prema-dhana

SYNONYMS

bahu — many; janma — births; kare — does; yadi — if; śravaṇa — hearing; kīrtana — chanting; tabu — still; ta' — in spite of; nā — does not; pāya — get; kṛṣṇa-pade — unto the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa; prema-dhana — love of Godhead.

TRANSLATION

If one is infested with the ten offenses in the chanting of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, despite his endeavor to chant the holy name for many births, he will not get the love of Godhead that is the ultimate goal of this chanting.

 

Look at the Bengali and study what Kaviraj Gosai's actual words are. In fact he doesn't mention the ten offences at all. The point Krishnadas Kaviraj Goswami is actually making - try and understand what he is actually saying.

Here are the two verses that precede verse 8.16. The meaning becomes clear if you study what he says.

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 8.14

yadi vā tārkika kahe, — tarka se pramāṇa

tarka-śāstre siddha yei, sei sevyamāna

Logicians say that unless you have UNDERSTANDING and REALIZATION you cannot really worship any Deity. (in other words, if you are a blind follower with no realization you don't really know God and your ideas are shallow)

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 8.15

śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya-dayā karaha vicāra

vicāra karite citte pābe camatkāra

The mercy (daya) of Sri Chaitanya - understand and realize that! (karaha vicara)

Understanding that, in your heart (citte) you will find something great and wonderful (camatkara)

Without deep realization, our chanting can continue as a kind of muttering for hundreds of lifetimes.

Here is the commentary to this of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur:

Engage yourself in the study of the kindest teachings of Lord Sri Krishna Chaitanya. Your heart will be filled with admiration. Without the enquiry after the Supreme Reality, innumerable number of births spent in hearing and chanting will not be able to fetch Divine Love at the Lotus Feet of Lord Krishna

 

Can you see what he is saying?

We need to REALIZE or UNDERSTAND the merciful gift of Sri Gauranga.

If we don't have a proper understanding of the teachings of Sri Chaitanya but instead we simply make the shadow (abhasa) of the sound of "Hari" on our lips, we will not attain Krishna's feet.

And right now I am not chanting the Pure Name. Not 16 rounds of it. Not one. Not even one Nama. I am a neophyte.

By Pure Chanting a person is doing greater service than by following the other 8 forms of sadhana. But the Chanting must be Pure.

This story about Narasingha being defeated and that Virabhadra presented Siva the skin and skull of Narasingha is told in the Siva Purana.

What does this tell us?

That this Purana (and others) are written by unenlightened, sectarian men who were trying to prove the supremacy of their ista-deva.

There are three types of bhakti.

Sadhana bhakti, Bhava Bhakti, Prema Bhakti.

All forms of bhakti are proper. But sadhana bhakti is the "practice" of service and bhava bhakti is the awakenment of Love of God. Prema Bhakti is the full manifestation of Love of God.

Sadhana bhakti involves chanting Krishna-nama but that chanting is being done by people who by definition are not yet in the stage of having "LOve of God" and "divya-jnana". If they get Love of God they are not doing sadhana bhakti anymore, they are situated in Bhava.

And what is proper devotional service? Let's look at this carefully Muralidhar. I see improper devotional service as the form of bhakti being acted out without the substance of bhakti. An example would be mayavadis who think they are engaging in bhakti while all the while thinking that they will discover that ultimately they are Krsna. Or those that chant Hare Krsna thinking it to be only a pious activity. Chanting with attachment to that attitude or with other offenses can never fructify into Love for Krsna even if one chants for billions of lifetimes.

 

Ultimately one must accept the Holy Name from Krsna's devotee with Vaisnava siddhanta to gain Krsna preme.

 

What is your definition of pure devotional service?

Suddha bhakti. The type of bhakti performed by Prahlad, Arjuna, Uddhava etc.

CC Madhya 23.3: Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu continued, "Now hear, O Sanātana, about the result of devotional service, which is love of Godhead, life's ultimate goal. One who hears this description will be enlightened in the transcendental mellows of devotional service.

CC Madhya 23.4: "When affection for Kṛṣṇa becomes deeper, one attains love of Godhead in devotional service. Such a position is called sthāyi-bhāva, permanent enjoyment of the mellows of devotional service to Kṛṣṇa.

CC Madhya 23.5: "'When devotional service is executed on the transcendental platform of pure goodness, it is like a sun-ray of love for Kṛṣṇa. At such a time, devotional service causes the heart to be softened by various tastes, and one is then situated in bhāva [emotion].'

CC Madhya 23.6: "Bhāva [emotion] has two different symptoms — constitutional and marginal. Now, My dear Sanātana, listen to the symptoms of love.

CC Madhya 23.7: "'When that bhāva softens the heart completely, becomes endowed with a great feeling of possessiveness in relation to the Lord and becomes very much condensed and intensified, it is called prema [love of Godhead] by learned scholars.

CC Madhya 23.8: "'When one develops an unflinching sense of ownership or possessiveness in relation to Lord Viṣṇu, or, in other words, when one thinks Viṣṇu and no one else to be the only object of love, such an awakening is called bhakti [devotion] by exalted persons like Bhīṣma, Prahlāda, Uddhava and Nārada.'

 

 

Pure bhakti:

when one thinks Viṣṇu and no one else to be the only object of love

that is, when someone is not attached to their body or anything to do with their body, but their attachment is only for Krishna and his pure devotees, that is pure devotion.

Continuing our reading of CC, we then see this:

kona bhagya kona jivera sraddha yadi haya

tabe sei jiva sadhu-sanga je karaya

sadhu-sanga haite haya sravana-kirtana

sadhana-bhaktye haya sarvanartha-nivartana

anartha-nivrtti haile bhaktaye nistha haya

nistha haite sravanadye ruci upajaya

ruci haite bhaktye haya asakti pracura

asakti haite cite janme krsne prity-ankura

sei bhava gadha haile dhare prema-nama

sei prema prayojana sravanananda dhama

 

 

"If, by good fortune, a living entity develops faith (sraddha) in Krsna, then he begins to associate with devotees (sadhu-sanga). From the association of devotees, one begins devotional service by hearing and chanting about Krsna. This is called sadhana-bhakti and through it one becomes free from all unwanted contaminations (anartha-nivrtti). When one is freed from all unwanted contamination, he becomes steadfast in his devotional practices (nistha). When fixed in devotional practice, a taste (ruci) is awakened. After such taste is awakened, a deep attachment (asakti) arises, and from that attachment the seed of love for Krsna grows in the heart. When the ecstatic emotional stage intensifies, it is called love of Godhead. Such love is life's ultimate goal and the reservoir of all pleasure." (Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya 23.9-13)

 

 

The stage of service called bhajana-kriya means that you do the activity (kriya) of bhajana, or in other words you do the work of chanting Krishna's name.

This stage is the stage you enter after taking diksa. I can post the statements that confirm this. Do I need to?

But anyhow, when you begin bhajana-kriya you are not filled with transcendental knowledge (divya-jnana) rather you are working towards getting that. You have a small vision of divya-jnana but the full thing is not revealed until you are free from anarthas (anartha nivritti).

Diksa is the dawning of active service, not the full manifestation or attainment of "divine realization". See Haridasa Thakurs' explanation of "namabhasa" to understand this more clearly.

bye

You call CC Madhya-15.108 a random quote!?

 

CC Madhya 15.108: "One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [caṇḍāla] can be delivered.

 

 

Theist, it doesn't make sense to quote just this verse and to disregard Adi 8.16-18

CC Ādi 8.16: If one is infested with the ten offenses in the chanting of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, despite his endeavor to chant the holy name for many births, he will not get the love of Godhead that is the ultimate goal of this chanting.

 

 

CC Ādi 8.17: "By cultivating philosophical knowledge one can understand his spiritual position and thus be liberated, and by performing sacrifices and pious activities one can achieve sense gratification in a higher planetary system, but the devotional service of the Lord is so rare that even by executing hundreds and thousands of such sacrifices one cannot obtain it."

 

 

CC Ādi 8.18: If a devotee wants liberation or material sense gratification from the Lord, Kṛṣṇa immediately delivers it, but pure devotional service He keeps hidden.

You use the hari-bhakti-vilasa to counter the words of the CC. That leaves you in a quandry not me.

 

CC very clearly states that someone may chant the Holy Name for hundreds of lifetimes but if they do not follow the proper method of devotional service they will not attain the goal of life:

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Muralidhar

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 8.16

bahu janma kare yadi śravaṇa, kīrtana

tabu ta' nā pāya kṛṣṇa-pade prema-dhana

If one is infested with the ten offenses in the chanting of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, despite his endeavor to chant the holy name for many births, he will not get the love of Godhead that is the ultimate goal of this chanting.

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Therefore the Acaryas recommend that people accept initiation according to the established method given in the scriptures. But if you or anyone else simply love to chant Harinam then I'm not opposing that. I merely point out this verse in CC saying that it may take a person hundreds of lifetimes to attain Krishna Prema.

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> grhita visnu diksako visnu pujaparo narah

vaisnavo'bhihito'bhijnair itaro'smad avaisnavahch

A person who is initiated in Visnu mantras, and who is expert in worshiping Lord Visnu, such a person is known as a Vaisnava. Besides this, everyone else is an avaisnava. (Hari Bhakti Vilasa 1.55, quoting the Padma Purana)

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Yes it is hard for me to understand the direct meaning of this statement in Hari bhakti vilasa. I'm too dopey.

Bye

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Actually, never mind. Forgive me please, but I find this discussion preposterous as per the thread title. I'd like to withdraw, thanks.

Yep, count me out too.

Theist,

you asked me to respond to this

“Diksha is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksha.”

 

...

 

Madhya 15.107 - “Simply by chanting the holy name of Krishna once, a person is relieved from all the reactions of a sinful life. One can complete the nine processes of devotional service simply by chanting the holy name.

 

...

 

Chanting the Holy Name does not require formal initiation. Diksha is the process that awakens transcendental knowledge. One can complete the whole process of devotional service simply by chanting the Holy Name.

 

and this

Madhya 15.106 - Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu replied, “Whoever chants the holy name of Krishna just once is worshipable and is the topmost human being.

 

Madhya 15.107 - “Simply by chanting the holy name of Krishna once, a person is relieved from all the reactions of a sinful life. One can complete the nine processes of devotional service simply by chanting the holy name.

 

Well, Mahaprabhu makes a distinction between chanting and all the other processes of sadhana bhakti. But then when someone does some of the other processes such as offering prayers or puja you will of course say some of the names of the Lord, and thus you will be "chanting". For example, before doing archan (puja) you will do arcamana while saying "om sri kesavaya namah". Since Deity worship and other practices also involve "chanting" why isn't Deity worship considered to be better than doing chanting alone? In Deity worship you are making offerings of flowers etc and you are not just making sounds with your lips!

Well, the answer is that the pure chanting of the holy name free from all offence and nama-abhasa is different from the chanting done by impure souls.

Someone may chant the Holy Name for hundreds of lifetimes but if they do not follow the proper method of devotional service they will not attain the goal of life:

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 8.16

 

bahu janma kare yadi śravaṇa, kīrtana

tabu ta' nā pāya kṛṣṇa-pade prema-dhana

If one is infested with the ten offenses in the chanting of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, despite his endeavor to chant the holy name for many births, he will not get the love of Godhead that is the ultimate goal of this chanting.

 

Therefore, the Acaryas recommend that people accept initiation according to the established method given in the scriptures.

“Diksha is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksha.”

 

Diksa is the process by which a person attains transcendental knowledge.

In the Hari bhakti vilasa the process of diksa is described. There, you wil also see this verse:

grhita visnu diksako visnu pujaparo narah

vaisnavo'bhihito'bhijnair itaro'smad avaisnavahch

A person who is initiated in Visnu mantras, and who is expert in worshiping Lord Visnu, such a person is known as a Vaisnava. Besides this, everyone else is an avaisnava. (Hari Bhakti Vilasa 1.55, quoting the Padma Purana)