muralidhar_das
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Brhadbhagavatamrtam 2.2.186
Sanskrit commentary by Srila Sanatana Goswami, in which he states that souls who are merged in Brahman retain their eternal spiritual form (svarupa) forever
ataH sa nitya-siddho bhedas tiSThed eva. evam satyeva mukta api lilayA
vigrahaM kRtvA bhagavantaM
bhajanti iti zrI zankarAcArya bhagavat padAnAM vacanaM
The difference between Bhagavan and Jiva is eternal. Thus Sri Shankaracarya
has also said: 'Even the liberated souls will assume a body to worship the Lord'.
tathA muktAnAm api siddhAnAM nArAyaNa parAyaNaH; sudurlabhaH prazAntAtmA
koTiSvapi mahAmune
(s.b. 6.14.5) ityAdIni mahApurANAdi vacanAni ca saGgacchante. anyathA muktyA
brahmaNi layenaikya sati ko nAma lIlayA vigrahaM karotu? ko vA bhaktyA
nArAyaNa-parAyaNo bhavatu?
In the Bhagavata (6.14.5) it is also said that amongst millions of liberated
and perfected souls few are dedicated to Narayana. Such peaceful souls are
rare.Otherwise which merged liberated soul would assume a body for the sake
of lila? Who would become dedicated with devotion to Narayana?
katham api pRthak-sattAvazeSAbhAvAt?
How can that be if there is no remainder of separate existence?
na ca vaktavyam tad vacanAni jIvanmukta viSayAnIti. yato jIvanmuktAnAM svata
eva dehasya vidyamAnAtvAt vigrahaM kRtvetyuktir na saGgacchate
It cannot be said that these statements speak about jivanmuktas because it
is not possible to say that jivanmukta who have a body [obviously the
material one is meant here] will make a body.
tathA muktAnAm api siddhAnAm iti pada-dvaya nirdezo'pi. atra ca pAdma
kArtika mAhAtmyoktau bhagavati layaM prAptasyApi nR dehasya mahAmuneH punar
nArAyaNa rUpeNa prAdurbhAvaH.
There is also the special mention in the two padas of the Bhagavata beginng
with muktAnAM api siddhAnAm.
Apart from that, in the Kartika Mahatmya it is said that a sage in a human
form merged into Bhagavan and again appeared in the form of Narayana
tathA bRhan nArasiMha purANe narasiMha caturdazI vrata prasaGge kathitaH.
bhagavati lInasyApi vezyA sahitasya viprasya punaH sabhArya prahlAda
rUpeNAvirbhAva ityAnekopAkhyAnam anyacca paraM pramANam anusandheyam ityeSA
dik.
Then there is also a story in the Brihan Narasimha Purana narrated in the
context of the vow of Narasimha Caturdashi. In the story a Brahmin who had
merged into the Lord with a prostitute again emerged as Prahlada with his
wife. There is also further evidence that should be examined. I just showed
the direction.
The words "vigrahaM kRtvetyuktir" mean make a body. The liberated soul makes a body he can render service with - he thinks "I want a spiritual hand so I can offer a flower" and a spiritual hand comes out of his consciousness.
This is what Sanatana Goswami says. The liberated soul makes "krtva" a body through contemplation (yukti, yoga). Click Krtva to see what it means.
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Mahaprabhu said the soul "gets" a spiritual body.He doesn't say revives or re-awakens his spiritual body.
It says that one ATTAINS a transcendental body.
Translation of Srila Sanatan Goswami's commentary to verse 2.2.207 of Brhadbhagavatamrtam which you can see in the attached image.
Among hundreds and thousands (Kotis) of muktas and siddhas (liberated souls), peaceful devotees who worship Narayan are rarer, we can know from the word "Sidhanam" which used in this sloka that even Siddhas also do Bhajans to the Lord.
Although they merge to Brahma (brahman), they remain as a different entity (they retain eternal existence), there are many examples.
In this way having different-partial nature (being relatively small and dependent, not Abolute), the meaning of "anadisiddha" is mentioned before (the liberated souls merged in Brahman are called anadi-siddha, meaning they have been merged in Brahman since a time that has no beginning, even though some of them have fallen into Maya and returned later to Brahman).
By the potency of the Lord, all the Muktas also exhibit the sadciddananda body similar to the Lord and then with their spiritual senses they do bhajan on the glories of the most attractive Lord Sri Hari.
Bhajan of the Lord can not be done by material body and senses. Therefore, all Muktas with their spiritual body and senses do service to the Lord in the process of hearing, chanting, etc.
The anadi-siddhas, the souls arising from Brahman and attaining sarupya mukti such as the 4 kumaras never got given any swarupa by any guru or by Visnu. That is absolutely clear from the Bhagavata.
Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 24.45
tasyāravinda-nayanasya padāravinda-
kiñjalka-miśra-tulasī-makaranda<wbr>-vāyuḥ
antar-gataḥ sva-vivareṇa cakāra teṣāḿ
sańkṣobham akṣara-juṣām api citta-tanvoḥ
TRANSLATION
When the breeze carrying the aroma of tulasī leaves and saffron from the lotus feet of the lotus-eyed Personality of Godhead entered through the nostrils into the hearts of those sages [the Kumāras], they experienced a change in both body and mind, even though they were attached to the impersonal Brahman understanding.
Their siddha form transformed into a devotional body.
In the Priti Sandarbha, Sri Jiva Goswami writes that a liberated soul can manifest many bodies (as in the case of Tulasi who exists in many places) and that the liberated devotees does this BY HIS OWN WILL.
By his own will a liberated soul can manifest many different forms. This is described in these words of Chandogya Upanisad (7.26.2):
sa ekadhA bhavati, dvidhA bhavati, tridhA bhavati."The liberated soul may manifest one form, two forms,three forms, or more forms than that."
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Srila Sridhar Maharaj translates the word "brahmanda" as solar system.
Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada translates the word "brahmanda" as universe.
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Perhaps the reason behind reprinting Sri Krishna Samhita by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta was not the value of Bhaktivinoda's pronouncements on the nature of Lord Ramachandra's "monkey army", but a validation of all sincere attempts to explain sastra in the light of modern knowledge.
I don't have any information about "why" Srila Saraswati Thakura printed Sri Krishna Samhita two times, and why he promoted it.
But my personal reason for discussing it here is not that I am a fundamentalist follower of "Sri Krishna Samhita" who is trying to fight against "tradition". It is simply that I feel the things written in Sri Krishna Samhita show us that it is not wrong to examine things from our "modern" perspective since we are all modern age people.
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For starters what is described here is the material conditioning of the jiva long after they left VaikunthaBut according to your grand thesis all souls are in Vaikuntha and have never left Vaikuntha!
Can't you see the absurdity of this philosophy you are preaching?
Are we in Vaikuntha or are we in illusion in Maya?
I think I'm in Maya but I've learned enough from Guru-Gauranga to understand that your theoretical ideas are illusions.
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Can't you read?
When jivas begotten of the marginal potency (tatastha sakti) forget the service of Krsna they are confined in the mundane prison house, the citadel of Durga
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Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by muralidhar_das
Srila Sanatana Goswami wrote in Sri Brhadbhagavatamrtam (1.2.195):
vaikuntha vasino hy ete kecid vai nitya-parsadah
pare krsnaya krpaya sadhayatvemam agatah
Translation: Some residents of Vaikuntha are eternal associates of the Lord; others have attained the transcendental world by Krishna's mercy after having practiced sadhana.
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If souls are "always in Vaikuntha" then these words of Sanatana Goswami make no sense.
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Chapter 2. Contents of the Gita SummarizedTEXT 12
na tv evaham jatu nasam
na tvam neme janadhipah
na caiva na bhavisyamah
sarve vayam atah param
SYNONYMS
na--never; tu--but; eva--certainly; aham--I; jatu--become; na--never; asam--existed; na--it is not so; tvam--yourself; na--not; ime--all these; jana-adhipah--kings; na--never; ca--also; eva--certainly; na--not like that; bhavisyamah--shall exist; sarve--all of us; vayam--we; atah param--hereafter.
TRANSLATION
Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.
What relevence has this verse of the Gita got to the statement I quoted by Sanatana Goswami?
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Jiva is a spiritual atomic part of Krsna. When he forgets his service of Krsna, he is at once deflected by the attracting power of maya in this world, who throws him into the whirlpool . . ." - Brahma-samhita, purport to Text 44.
You have foolishly taken one line of text and quoted it out of context.
TRANSLATION
The external potency Maya who is of the nature of the shadow of the cit potency, is worshiped by all people as Durga, the creating, preserving and destroying agency of this mundane world. I adore the primeval Lord Govinda in accordance with whose will Durga conducts herself.
PURPORT
(The aforesaid presiding deity of Devi-dhama is being described.) The world, in which Brahma takes his stand and hymns the Lord of Goloka, is Devi-dhama consisting of the fourteen worlds and Durga is its presiding deity. She is ten-armed, representing the tenfold fruitive activities. She rides on the lion, representing her heroic prowess. She tramples down Mahisasura, representing the subduer of vices. She is the mother of two sons, Karttikeya and Ganesa, representing beauty and success. She is placed between Laksmi and Sarasvati, representing mundane opulence and mundane knowledge. She is armed with the twenty weapons, representing the various pious activities enjoined by the Vedas for suppression of vices. She holds the snake, representing the beauty of destructive time. Such is Durga possessing all these manifold forms. Durga is possessed of durga, which means a prison house. When jivas begotten of the marginal potency (tatastha sakti) forget the service of Krsna they are confined in the mundane prison house, the citadel of Durga. The wheel of karma is the instrument of punishment at this place. The work of purifying these penalized jivas is the duty devolved upon Durga. She is incessantly engaged in discharging the same by the will of Govinda. When, luckily. the forgetfulness of Govinda on the part of imprisoned jivas is remarked by them by coming in contact with self-realized souls and their natural aptitude for the loving service of Krsna is aroused, Durga herself then becomes the agency of their deliverance by the will of Govinda. So it behooves everybody to obtain the guileless grace of Durga, the mistress of this prison house, by propitiating her with the selfless service of Krsna. The boons received from Durga in the shape of wealth, property, recovery from illness, of wife and sons, should be realized as the deluding kindness of Durga. The mundane psychical jubilations of dasa-maha-vidya, the ten goddesses or forms of Durga, are elaborated for the delusion of the fettered souls of this world. Jiva is a spiritual atomic part of Krsna. When he forgets his service of Krsna he is at once deflected by the attracting power of Maya in this world, who throws him into the whirlpool of mundane fruitive activity (karma) by confining him in a gross body constituted by the five material elements, their five attributes and eleven senses, resembling the garb of a prisoner. In this whirlpool jiva has experience of happiness and miseries, heaven and hell. Besides this, there is a subtle body. consisting of the mind, intelligence and ego, inside the gross body. By means of the subtle body. the jiva forsakes one gross body and takes recourse to another. The jiva cannot get rid of the subtle body. full of nescience and evil desires, unless and until he is liberated. On getting rid of the subtle body he bathes in the Viraja and goes up to Hari-dhama. Such are the duties performed by Durga in accordance with the will of Govinda. In the Bhagavata sloka, vilajyamanaya... durdhiyah--the relationship between Durga and the conditioned souls has been described.
Durga, worshiped by the people of this mundane world, is the Durga described above. But the spiritual Durga, mentioned in the mantra which is the outer covering of the spiritual realm of the Supreme Lord, is the eternal maidservant of Krsna and is, therefore, the transcendental reality whose shadow, the Durga of this world, functions in this mundane world as her maidservant.
I feel you (whoever you are) are acting very dishonestly.
You read a purport like this one in Brahma Samhita, you pick out a line that you like, and then make a claim that the statement you quote supports your concocted philosophy, then you broadcast this deception.
Look at the purport again. It says jivas come from the tatastha shakti - that is their origin.
When jivas begotten of the marginal potency (tatastha sakti) forget the service of Krsna they are confined in the mundane prison house, the citadel of Durga.
Stop this dishonest behavior.
There are souls who are liberated and merged in God's impersonal aspect called Brahma (brahman). The "nigarbha-yogī" atmarama souls who adore God in his impersonal aspect are listed as "santa bhaktas" by Sri Chaitanya.
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Madhya 24.164
ei saba śānta yabe bhaje bhagavān
'śānta' bhakta kari' tabe kahi tāńra nāma
"These thirteen types of yogīs and munis are called śānta-bhaktas, for they render transcendental loving service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead in the neutral stage.
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They are impersonalists. They worship Krishna in the form of "formless Brahman". They can fall down into Maya. But the bhaktas in Vaikuntha never fall down.
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Madhya 24.155
sagarbha, nigarbha, — ei haya dui bheda
eka eka tina bhede chaya vibheda
TRANSLATION
"The two types of ātmārāma-yogīs are called sagarbha and nigarbha. Each of these is divided into three; therefore there are six types of worshipers of the Supersoul.
PURPORT
The word sagarbha-yogī refers to a yogī who worships the Supersoul in the Viṣṇu form. The nigarbha-yogī worships the Supersoul without form. The sagarbha and nigarbha yogīs are further categorized: (1) sagarbha-yogārurukṣu, (2) nigarbha-yogārurukṣu, (3) sagarbha-yogārūḍha, (4) nigarbha-yogārūḍha, (5) sagarbha-prāpta-siddhi and (6) nigarbha-prāpta-siddhi.
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Such a great mass of souls who are of this temperament are existing, this mood of adoration of the Formless God, that compared to them the number of liberated devotees is very small.
<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 6.14.5
muktānām api siddhānāḿ nārāyaṇa-parāyaṇaḥ
sudurlabhaḥ praśāntātmā koṭiṣv api mahā-mune
TRANSLATION
O great sage, among many millions who are liberated and perfect in knowledge of liberation, one may be a devotee of Lord Nārāyaṇa, or Kṛṣṇa. Such devotees, who are fully peaceful, are extremely rare.
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Srila Sanatana Goswami wrote in Sri Brhadbhagavatamrtam (1.2.195):
vaikuntha vasino hy ete kecid vai nitya-parsadah
pare krsnaya krpaya sadhayatvemam agatah
Translation: Some residents of Vaikuntha are eternal associates of the Lord; others have attained the transcendental world by Krishna's mercy after having practiced sadhana.
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If souls are "always in Vaikuntha" then these words of Sanatana Goswami make no sense.
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so, Muralidhar is saying that Bhaktivinode said that Srimad Bhagavatam is a "common-place book of the Hindus where raja guna and tamo guna are described as the ways of religion".OK...........
Hey, I aint no genius, but even I can see that there is something very wrong about referring to Srimad Bhagavatam in these terms.
Prabhu I'm not trying to be evil and I'm not aiming to make you feel bad.
Thakur Bhaktivinode said this:
<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> In the common-place books of the Hindu religion in which the rajo and tamo-guna have been described as the ways of religion, we have descriptions of a local heaven and a local hell; the Heaven as beautiful as anything on earth and the Hell as ghastly as any picture of evil. Besides this Heaven we have many more places, where good souls are sent up in the way of promotion! There are 84 divisions of the hell itself, some more dreadful than the one which Milton has described in his "Paradise Lost". These are certainly poetical and were originally created by the rulers of the country in order to check evil deeds of the ignorant people, who are not able to understand the conclusions of philosophy. The religion of the Bhagavata is free from such a poetry. Indeed, in some of the chapters we meet with descriptions of these hells and heavens, and accounts of curious tales, but we have been warned somewhere in the book, not to accept them as real facts, but as inventions to overawe the wicked and to improve the simple and the ignorant. The Bhagavata, certainly tells us a state of reward and punishment in future according to deeds in our present situation. All poetic inventions, besides this spiritual fact, have been described as statements borrowed from other works in the way of preservation of old traditions in the book which superseded them and put an end to the necessity of their storage. If the whole stock of Hindu theological works which preceded the Bhagavata were burnt like the Alexandrian library and the sacred Bhagavata preserved as it is, not a part of the philosophy of the Hindus except that of the atheistic sects, would be lost. The Bhagavata therefore, may be styled both as a religious work and a compendium of all Hindu history and philosophy.
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His words, not mine.
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Please show us where in Srimad Bhagavatam this has been said.I haven't been able to find any such statements in the book and such a statement seems to demolish the idea the Srimdad Bhagavatam is the "amalam purana" or spotless purana.
Why ask me?
Ask Bhaktivinode Thakura.
Ask him next time you wave incense at his feet.
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Bhaktivinode's radical and revolutionary statements have no precedent.
it is was good enough for the six goswamis, it is good enough for me.
Wow....
Please see that there is no need for you to feel disturbed.
Bhaktivinode's statements take us to the point where we need to be. We need to see how things really are.
The scriptures are books to help us attain spiritual understanding. They are not books about material topics.
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Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Thakura Bhaktivinode
In the common-place books of the Hindu religion in which the rajo and tamo-guna have been described as the ways of religion, we have descriptions of a local heaven and a local hell; the Heaven as beautiful as anything on earth and the Hell as ghastly as any picture of evil. Besides this Heaven we have many more places, where good souls are sent up in the way of promotion! There are 84 divisions of the hell itself, some more dreadful than the one which Milton has described in his "Paradise Lost" . These are certainly poetical and were originally created by the rulers of the country in order to check evil deeds of the ignorant people, who are not able to understand the conclusions of philosophy.
.
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KB, here is the whole paragraph. I assumed you had already seen this book.
Parts of it are printed in the beginning of "Search For Sri Krishna".
Here is the entire paragraph:
In the common-place books of the Hindu religion in which the rajo and tamo-guna have been described as the ways of religion, we have descriptions of a local heaven and a local hell; the Heaven as beautiful as anything on earth and the Hell as ghastly as any picture of evil. Besides this Heaven we have many more places, where good souls are sent up in the way of promotion! There are 84 divisions of the hell itself, some more dreadful than the one which Milton has described in his "Paradise Lost". These are certainly poetical and were originally created by the rulers of the country in order to check evil deeds of the ignorant people, who are not able to understand the conclusions of philosophy. The religion of the Bhagavata is free from such a poetry. Indeed, in some of the chapters we meet with descriptions of these hells and heavens, and accounts of curious tales, but we have been warned somewhere in the book, not to accept them as real facts, but as inventions to overawe the wicked and to improve the simple and the ignorant. The Bhagavata, certainly tells us a state of reward and punishment in future according to deeds in our present situation. All poetic inventions, besides this spiritual fact, have been described as statements borrowed from other works in the way of preservation of old traditions in the book which superseded them and put an end to the necessity of their storage. If the whole stock of Hindu theological works which preceded the Bhagavata were burnt like the Alexandrian library and the sacred Bhagavata preserved as it is, not a part of the philosophy of the Hindus except that of the atheistic sects, would be lost. The Bhagavata therefore, may be styled both as a religious work and a compendium of all Hindu history and philosophy.
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KB, you can download the entire Bhagavat Lecture here:
www.mandala.com.au/books/bhagavata.pdf
Thakura Bhaktivinode said that the hells described in the scriptures are
QUOTE ::
certainly poetical and were originally created by the rulers of the country in order to check evil deeds of the ignorant people
:: UNQUOTE
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Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur presents another point taught by Thakura Bhaktivinode.
The avataras of Visnu appear in the world to attract different souls with different stages of "evolutionary growth". (not Darwin's evolution, of course, but a stage of evolution of consciousness).
<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura
Professor Albert Suthers: -- In the scriptures of India, adorable Deities have been represented as creatures of the lower creation like fish, tortoise, boar, etc. Is this approved by the sense of decency of civilised humanity? Some again are in favour of supporting such representations as allegorical symbols.
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura: -- Imagination does not find a place in Vaishnava Philosophy. In it or in the Shrimad Bhagavatam which is the highest scripture for all men in the universe has been described the topmost ontology about God, million times better than what the most civilised races of humanity five thousands years old, nay, as old as several millions of eras, can conceive of even in imagination.
The eternal transcendental forms of God that descend or are manifested according to the gradual evolution of the aptitude for offering service by the totally purified soul quite aloof from the regions of the body and mind, when man becomes the worshipper of the ultimate Reality at the loftiest stage of civilisation, are never the idols of imagination or allegories like unreal things manufactured in the mental factory of man or like the imaginary animal deities of the barbarians such as the tiger-god, serpent-god, horse-god, etc. The worship of the Vishnu Incarnations, like Fish, Turtle, etc., is not fabrication of imagination like that of one of the five deities of the Henotheists formed out of imagination, based on the coinage of set speeches like the imaginary conception of the forms of Brahman (as in the Panchadasi of the monistic school). The Henotheists do not admit the Transcendental Personality of Godhead. The sects of figurative allegorists like the Theosophists are not real theists, cherishing, as they do, doubt against the Personality of God and for that reason they want to curtail god's Omni-potentiality and his Transcendental Names, Appearances, Attributes, Sports by means of allegorical description.
The Vaishnava philosophy or that of the ever-existent religion of India has never supported the atheistic doctrines of such professors of imaginary forms of Brahman, or figurative allegorists. It is about the doctrine of pure and real Avatara-vada (cult of Incarnation) that the philosophy of the ever-existing Indian religion has said. As the pure and real doctrine of Avataras of Fish, Turtle, etc. of the Vaishnavas is not a kind of imagination of the barbarian taste, nor the idolatry of the Mayavadins on the basis of their aphorism of forms of Brahman, imagined for the convenience of practicants, nor the allegorical description of the psychists, so it is not the Anthropomorphism (i.e. representation of the deity as having human forms), as devised by the so-called civilised section of the people, nor Therianthropism (i.e. representation of one's tutelary deity in a combined man-and-beast form), nor even Apotheosis (i.e. elevating man to the dignity of deities). These are respective types of the idolatry of the menatal speculationists of the inductive school.
In imitation of Mayavada, the evil fruit of the Indian civilisation, Anthropomorphsim was invented in Greece and Rome and Therianthropism in Egypt, etc. When the new doctrines got access in those countries along with the commodities produced by the Indian civilization which were based on the imagination of the anthrophysites like the Indian Mayavadins who exalted man or beasts to the status of God with the attribution of divinity to them calling jivas and the poor as 'Narayana' with gratification of the senses in the back ground, then the mental speculations of those respective countries adopted the cheap vitiated Indian dogmas and, labeling new names on them, passed these doctrinal commodities into the forum of religious tenets. But the true Vaishnava philosophy of India never indulged in any such doctrine based on imagination. Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu has refuted all such imaginative doctrines or idolatries and rejected both Anthropomorphism and Therianthropism. He vouchsafed the Shastric teaching, viz., that he must be a heretic and sinner who looks upon God Narayana as equal to deities like Brahma, etc.
Anthropomorphism i.e., representation of the Deity with human form and attributes, resembles the tenet of the Bauls of Bengal attributing divinity to the head of their sect, professing, as they do, though wrongly, to have perceptorially descended from Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Such tenets are the mental imaginations of atheists like the Bouddhas and of the Bauls as above, running contrary to the teachings of Shri Buddha-Vishnu and Shri Chaitanya-Vishnu respectively. The Mayavadi sect too has adopted similar principles. The really scientific philosophy of the Shrimad Bhagavatam and the preachings of Shri Chaitanya Deva have, of course, accepted the human bodyas the Divine Manifestation; but that human body is not the creation of anthropomorphism, nor of the Baul doctrine, but it is the eternal, transcendental Sachidananda Body, the Cause of all causes, the highest Sportive Entity. When the human soul can acquire the wealth of all the sciences in perfection, then only is opened the door of the foremost mystery of true science. According to the Vaishnava Philosophy, the Sportive Manifestation of God is of two kinds. One kind is the creation of the material and spiritual universe and its systematization with inviolable rules. The school of intelligent empiricists can to a certain extent experience this type of God's Sportive Manifestation. The second kind is the Descent of God's Transcendental Sport in this created universe. It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment.
But when again the soul of a jiva, gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God at the feet of a representative of His, i.e., a true devotee His, he begins to get back his pure essential nature gradually unfolded, and God's Transcendental Eternal Forms appear as the objects of his worship according to the comprehension of His service in the graded evolution of acceptance of His protection, self-surrender or theism. So in such a case there remains no room, even in the slightest degree, for any form of imaginative doctrines of the so-called civilised or uncivilised human minds, whether apotheosistic, anthropomorphic, henotheistic, theosophic, theriomorphic or therianthropic. The real, eternal and transcendental Divine Forms reveal themselves to the pure souls according to the nature of their serving mood in the evolutionary growth there. The only cause of these Divine Descents is the intense Mercy of God towards jivas. In Europe the theories of physical evolution of Darwin and Lamarck have been considered. But it is in the Vaishnava Philosophy alone that we see the fully scientific and real conception of each eternal and transcendental Divine Form for worship by the freed souls according to their evolutionary growth of serving mood.
We can notice the different stages of animal life from the invertebrates to the fully grown human beings. These stages have been classified by the Indian sages of a scientific outlook in ten orders, viz, (1) the invertebrate, (2) testaceous or shelly, (3) vertebrate, (4) erectly vertebrate (as in the combined form of man and beast), (5) mannikin, (6) barbaric, (7) civilised, (8) wise, (9) ultra-wise and (10) destructive. These are the historical stages of jivas. According to the gradation of these stages as indications of evolution of the serving mood of the jiva soul, there are manifested the ten Incarnations of God, viz., Matsya (fish), Kurma (Turtle), Varaha (Boar), Nrishmha (Man-Lion), Vamana (Dwarf), Parasu-rama, Rama, Krishna, Buddha and Kalki, as worshippable Deities with eternal transcendental Names, Forms, Attributes and Sports. Those who have acquired a true knowledge about Incarnations with a thorough culture thereof, will be able, with the grace of the philosophers trained in the school of Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, to appreciate the ontology of Shri Krishna, specially the intense sweetness of His Sports at Braja (i.e. Vrindavana and the neighbourhood.)
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Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura writes in Sri Chaitanya Siksamrtam 6.5:
Putana represents the fake guru who teaches bhukti and mukti, material enjoyment and liberation. Devotees attached to bhukti and mukti are like Putana. Being merciful to the pure devotees, Krishna as a baby, killed Putana to protect the devotees' newly appearing affection for him.
The cart represents the load produced by old and recently acquired bad habits, by laxity and by pride. The mood created by thinking of baby Krishna breaks the cart, or removes this evil.
The whirlwind demon represents pride in being learned, and the consequent use of faulty arguments and dry logic, the quest for liberation, and association with such people. This includes all types atheists believing in material causality. Being merciful on seeing the affection for the devotee to Him baby Krishna kills that whirlwind and removes the obstacles to worship.
Pride stemming from intoxication with wealth, which breeds violence, illicit sex and addiction to wine, and finally loose speaking and shameless brutality to other living beings, is represented by the Yamala Arjuna trees. Krishna, being merciful, removes this sin in breaking the Yamala Arjuna trees.
Being controlled by greed and the sinful activities caused by it are represented by Vatsasura. By Krishna's mercy this fault is vanquished.
False dealing due to deceit and cheating are represented by Bakasura. Without eliminating this, pure bhakti does not appear.
The sinful mentality to do violence to others is represented by Aghasura. This tendency must be removed. It is one of the offenses.
Skepticism due to practicing jnana and karma and disregard for the sweetness of Krishna from attachment to the Lord's majestic aspect are presented by Brahma when he was put into illusion by Krishna.
Complete ignorance of spiritual truth, originating from material intelligence, lack of spiritual intuition and foolishness, which is contrary to spiritual knowledge, is represented by Dhenuka.
Pride, deceit, harming others, cruelty, represented by Kaliya must be given up by the devotee.
Any type of conflict such as argument, disagreement with other sampradayas, malice to devatas, fighting are represented by the forest fire.
Pralambasura represents lust for women, greed, desire for worship and position. These must also be given up.
The forest fire which Krishna swallowed represents the obstacles that atheists create against dharma and preachers of dharma.
The brahmanas performing yajna represent indifference to Krishna caused by identity with varnasrama or absorption in karma khanda.
Worship of Indra signifies worship of many gods, or worship of self as God.
Varuna symbolizes intoxicants. Some people mistakenly think that liquor will increase spiritual bliss. Such thinking must be given up.
The snake which attempted to swallow Nanda Maharaja represents Mayavada and similar philosophies which try to swallow up the real nature of bhakti. Mayavada association must be avoided.
Sankhacuda symbolizes desire for fame and desire for women.
Aristasura the bull demon symbolizes disregard for bhakti and attraction for cheating religion.
The illusion of being a great devotee or acarya, is represented by Kesi. Lording it over others and material pride must be given up.
Vyomasura represents thieves and fake devotees.
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I don't care if it is all just a literary vehicle by which Krsna chose to tell His story through some inspired transcendenatlists.
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This is exactly how I feel
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He begins that section with this:"Now I will establish the dating of the smrti sastras according to the opinion of modern scholars"
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This is the point of view ISKCON people give when they are confronted with this. If you want to see things in that way, go right ahead.
But how about this statement from The Bhagavata Lecture which is not prefaced by any disclaimer:
In the common-place books of the Hindu religion in which the rajo and tamo-guna have been described as the ways of religion, we have descriptions of a local heaven and a local hell; the Heaven as beautiful as anything on earth and the Hell as ghastly as any picture of evil. Besides this Heaven we have many more places, where good souls are sent up in the way of promotion! There are 84 divisions of the hell itself, some more dreadful than the one which Milton has described in his "Paradise Lost" . These are certainly poetical and were originally created by the rulers of the country in order to check evil deeds of the ignorant people, who are not able to understand the conclusions of philosophy.
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This is Thakura Bhaktivinode's personal point of view.
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Quote:
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I wouldn't be too certain of that Guruvani-ji. Just the other day, Muralidhar Prabhu revealed to me his four-armed form
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Well, I guess I will have to show my Sadbhuja vigraha to top that?
It's a fact that I have displayed a six arm form in the past. In a dream I once saw myself as a spider - I was wandering around my web and looking for someone to bite. When I awoke I realized I must have been a spider in some recent past lifetime.
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Changing the subject...
Srimad-Bhagavatam is as great as Krsna, the Supreme Lord and shelter of everything. In each and every verse of Srimad-Bhagavatam and in each and every syllable, there are various meanings.
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More from Sri Krishna Samhita:
Although the Ramayana is counted as poetry, it can also be called a history. It was written by Valmiki Rsi, who was a contemporary of Ramacandra. We don't feel that the current Ramayana was written by Valmiki alone. By considering the conversation between Narada and Valmiki and the recitation of the Ramayana in Ramacandra's assembly by Luva and Kusa, it is understood that Valmiki composed many of the verses glorifying the characteristics of Ramacandra in the Ramayana, but after some time one scholar elaborated on Valmiki's work. I think that the present day Ramayana was propagated after the composition of the Mahabharata, because while chastising Jabali, Ramacandra accused him of being polluted by the Sakya philosophy. Please refer to the Sanskrit Ramayana printed under the direction of the King of Burdwan. It is felt that the present day Ramayana was written around 500 B.C. It is said that the Mahabharata was composed by Vyasadeva, and there is no objection to this. But it cannot be accepted that the Vyasa who divided the Vedas and received the title Vedavyasa at the time of Yudhisthira was the same Vyasa. The reason for this is that in the Mahabharata there are descriptions of kings such as Janmejaya, who ruled after Yudhisthira. There are specific references about the Manu scriptures in the Mahabharata, therefore the present day Mahabharata must have been written some time after 1000 B.C.
... it appears that Vedavyasa first made a draft of the Mahabharata, and later on another Vyasa elaborated on it and presented that under the name of Mahabharata.
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Quote:
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I guess I'm different from most people on this forum. I have a background in science. Years ago I went to university and learned the science of Psychology. .........................
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Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.....You aint' different.
You're just one of us conditioned souls that is prone to make mistakes, cheat etc. etc.
You are right there.
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You still don't seem to understand what Bhaktivinoda is saying....
As for your support of "science" in these areas or in the so called science of evolution, well, your opinion is interesting but maybe you should try to read a bit closer before making your claim of scientific objectivity. Besides the lack of any scientific proof for an aryan invasion (which was dreamed up by colonialist christians for the purpose of propaganda) there is also a lack of any scientific proof for evolution regardless of the claims made by propagandists. So if someone was to really rely on science and want his opinion to have any merit he or she should first become educated in the relevant science rather then parroting discredited propaganda masquerading as science.
I guess I'm different from most people on this forum. I have a background in science. Years ago I went to university and learned the science of Psychology. I studied the usual stuff: statistics, metrics, theories of the self, physiology, biology, etc..
After that I was lecturing at the university for a while - psych, media and technology.
You talk about how evolution has been debunked. Believe that if you like....
Looking at the picture I've attached, I feel quite certain that some men are closely related to apes. Notice the way Her Royal Highness is looking at the big monkey. Does she love animals? Maybe not this one.
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It's quite amuzing to see devotees seperating what part of the Gaudiya or Vedic canon they accept as real and what part they accept as fantasy.We have no proof of any of it.
It all sounds quite fantastic and mythological.
It's just really funny to see devotees separating what part of the mythology they accept as real and what part they want to label as fiction.
Picking and choosing what part of these scriptures we accept and what part we reject is a mind game that ends up in a lot of confusion and quarrel.
Maybe we should just try to find the spiritual element in all of it instead of trying to label part of it as history and part of it as mythology.
It's all got a spiritual meaning and spiritual purpose.
Our problem is that we want to get all mental about it and start picking and choosing to suit our personal preferences.
Where will it all end?
Probably in a condition of weakened faith on the mental platfrom.
It's all fantastic.
Separating one part as acceptable and another as unacceptable is a losing proposition.
IMHO
Which devotees are you talking about here?
Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura?
The people who follow his line of thought?
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Further to this, I know Mahaprabhu existed as a living being and because of the fact that reincarnation is a fact of life I know that Mahaprabhu is still existing somewhere.
People saw Mahaprabhu manifest 4 arms, manifest as Balarama, manifest as Radha-Govinda.
Bob Marley once sang, "the live god is a living man". My God is a living person, I have no doubt he exists and I'm sure he is not a fairy tale because as Krishna says in the Gita, "For the soul there is neither birth nor death.... souls just change bodies just like changing clothes".
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I don't care if it is all just a literary vehicle by which Krsna chose to tell His story through some inspired transcendenatlists.
This is exactly how I feel
Central sun
in Spiritual Discussions
Posted · Report reply
I agree with you here Prabhu.
The Bhagavatam is not a book about geography or science. It is a book that explains Krishna.