muralidhar_das

Haribol,

fallen SOUL, who are you?

I was also in the Sydney and Melbourne temples in the same period. I also travelled on the bus. Do you remember how Ram Prashad, Citta, Caru, Dwaip, and others were there? 73 - that was Double Bay? Right?

Sacarana-sri-gaura-mahima

The Glories of Sri Gauranga

(from Prathana by Srila Narottama dasa Thakura Mahasaya)

1

gaurangera duti pada, jar dhana sampada,

se jane bhakati-rasa-sar

gaurangera madhura-lila, jar karne pravesila,

hrdoya nirmala bhelo tar

2

je gaurangera nama loy, tara hoy premodoy,

tare mui jai bolihari

gauranga-gunete jhure, nitya-lila tare sphure,

se jana bhakati-adhikari

3

gaurangera sangi-gane, nitya-siddha kori' mane,

se jay brajendra-suta-pas

sri-gauda-mandala-bhumi, jeba jane cintamani,

tara hoy braja-bhume bas

4

gaura-prema-rasarnave, se tarange jeba dube,

se radha--madhava-antaranga

grhe ba vanete thake, 'ha gauranga' bo'le dake,

narottama mage tara sanga

Srila Narottama dasa Thakura said "sri-gauda-mandala-bhumi, jeba jane cintamani, tara hoy braja-bhume bas ".

The land of Gauranga is transcendental Chintamani-dhama non-different from Braja-bhumi.

Even from an objective viewpoint no scholar would ever say that the teachings of Srila A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada are completely one way or the other on the origin of the soul controversy. One thing is that the "back to Godhead" phrase did not originate with Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, I believe it was coined by Srila Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati Thakur. Perhaps Muralidhar Prabhu knows? Also if you really look at the logic implied in the above statement by Druva das, it is also a criticism of the acaryas of the era of the six goswamis and immediately afterward. Therefore these statements are completely offensive in nature for they are an attack upon Srila Prabhupada's predessesor acaryas and therefore the writer is some sort of imitation revisionist sahajiya.

I don't know where the term "Back to Godhead" originates, but perhaps it originated from Srila Saraswati Thakura. No doubt what Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami taught in his important books such as Isonpanishad, where he said the soul originates from Brahman, is perfect siddhanta.

In the Rg Veda there is this verse

om tad visno paramam padam sada pasyanti surayah

Which means that the enlightened sages see the goal of life as "Vishnu paramam padam", or in other words the place where Visnu is standing.

However in Srimad Bhagavatam (10.2.32) it states that a soul can fall from parampadam:<u1:p></u1:p>

ye 'nye 'ravindaksa vimukta-maninas

tvayy asta-bhavad avisuddha-buddhayah

aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah

patanty adho 'nadrta-yusmad-anghrayah

<u1:p></u1:p>

A soul liberated in Brahman may stay within the effulgence for aeons, however, “patanty adho 'nadrta-yusmad-anghrayah”, the liberated soul absorbed in sat-chit-ananda may choose to descend into the material world because of the feeling of fascination and attraction to worldly bodies and physical life.

Assuming a body, a self will then become caught in the net of karma if one falsely imagines oneself to be the Absolute Being. The souls in "parampadam" have some knowledge of Visnu but they have no bhakti. Since they are not bhaktas they are not under the protection of the Lord. The Lord says, "my devotee will never perish" but siddha souls merged in the glow of param-padam are not doing any sort of devotional activity, they are simple enjoying "impersonal brahman".

At the same time, however, some souls do awaken from Brahman (like Sukadev or the four Kumaras) and spontaneously they begin to feel a mood of adoration towards the Absolute Being called Bhagavan. With this free feeling of devotion the soul will rise up to a higher and further stage of liberated existence – Vaikuntha.

<u1:p></u1:p>

Rising and falling, rising and falling, an individual soul can exist in sayujya mukti or in a material body, sometimes free, sometimes in bondage. Or a soul may feel inspired by Vishnu and further make progress towards the highest goal called Vaikuntha. <u1:p></u1:p>The souls who attain Vaikuntha never fall down again into the material world. They come here from Vaikuntha (jai and vijai etc) only to facilitate the ongoing lila of Narayana. This is clearly stated to be the truth in the Srimad Bhagavatam and by liberated souls such as Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj.

"This topic has been greatly misunderstood for many hundreds of years in the Vaishnava tradition. Originally our dreaming consciousness WAS transmitted to the mahat-tattva (not our perpetual vigraha body), and given material (ethereal then biological) vessels by Maha-Vishnu, then over billions of life times, ones conscious awareness of their origins, becomes completely forgotten, so much so that that we begin to believe the nonsense that our origins are from an Impersonal nature.

 

This pollution of Impersonal thought in the Vaishnava teachings has always lingered around like a bad smell and was strong in the 11th and 13th centuries. Now, with the re emergence of Vaishnavism around the world in the 21st century, this nonsense tatastha Impersonal origins has started again, not from the teachings A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, who clearly explains we all indeed DID come from Vaikuntha, but by many of his Godbrothers and God nephews that he warned his disciples, on many occassions, to avoid".

 

Lets return home (vaikuntha) back to Godhead (Krishna) Any so-called guru who miss-translates this famous quote of Srila Prabhupadas, is a bogus rascal.

Hare Krsna

Yep you are right here

Before the 20th century nobody in the Vaisnava tradition ever said that the soul originates in Vaikuntha

śrotra-netra-gatyatīta-bodha-rodhitādbhutam

prema-labhya-bhāva-siddha-cetanā-camatkṛtam

brahma-śambhu-veda-tantra-mṛgya-satya-sundaram

prema-dhāma-devam eva naumi gaura-sundaram

- Sri Sri Prema Dhama Deva Stotram, verse 63

Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is the Divine Person, Purusottama. He is the Lord himself. He exists forever in his own spiritual domain eternally manifest in the dimension of spirit, far above the perception of people with worldly minds. The thoughts of people of the world are influenced by their experiences in the material world. Living beings develop different understandings about reality on the basis of knowledge they acquire through sense perceptions (experiences of the objective world realized through the sense of smell, taste, touch, sight, sound and thought). But Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is God and he cannot be known through empirical knowledge about the material world, since Sri Chaitanya is always existing beyond the material world, even when he is present in the world. Sri Chaitanya cannot be understood by someone who chooses to think of him as a mortal man. Mahaprabhu is more than a man. He arrests and halts all intellectual endeavors to know him by the processes of logic and reasoning. Being situated in his own spiritual realm he remains a mystery even for the sages - sages also are unable to fully understand him. Sri Chaitanya astonishes even the liberated mystics who are fixed in the path of divine realization. The revealed scriptures (veda) spoken by Lord Brahma and the literatures spoken Lord Shiva (tantra) are simply searching after Sri Gaurasundara (satyam shivam sundaram). Indeed Brahma and Shiva, in their incarnations as Haridas and Sri Advaita, also say they are astonished when they see the pastimes of Sri Chaitanya.

I fall at the feet of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, the golden volcano of divine love.

Muralidhar das: Srila Guru Maharaj, I have heard that Krishna is doing Gaura-seva. Is that right?

Srila Sridhar Maharaj: Krishna is serving Gauranga? Krishna is serving Gauranga? Yes we can think that Krishna is charmed by his own parallel existence of Gauranga. He is charmed because Gauranga means Krishna and Radha. Gauranga is combination of Radha and Krishna, so that is more. And Gauranga is prepared to distribute the Krishna-prema to one and all. Extending the market of the sale, extending the market for the distribution of divine love. Magnanimous Krishna. When Krishna comes in the mood of Radha, both combined, comes to distribute their inner wealth to one and all to the public for their benefit, that Krishna is Gauranga; not only Krishna, Krishna in the mood of Radha engaged in the distribution of his own wealth to the outside people. So for us Krishna is more valuable when He is Gauranga because there we get our heart's satisfaction. And in that Gauranga is higher than Krishna. Gaura-lila. Krishna engaged in distributing Himself causelessly to the others. That is higher for us. And independent of our thinking because both combined Radha-Krishna.

So they are one. In Vrindavan-lila they became two, divided. And again in Gaura-lila they are both combined. Eternal, always existing, in two moods, one combined and one different. Half and half. For their lila, pastimes. One thing divided, then the whole comes into one and becomes Gauranga, not brahma (nirvisesh brahma). According to the jnanis the whole (sakti-saktiman), the potency and the owner of the potency combined, the jnanis say, when combined then it is non-differentiated brahma. But to us that is not non-differentiated brahma, that (whole) becomes Gauranga searching Himself - sahajana prayojana vivarjana. When one Radha-Krishna the potency and the owner of the potency combine together in one whole absolute then He is searching Himself. He is feeling Himself, searching Himself, and in that way He is distributing Himself to others. In prema dham deva stotram I have got:

atma-siddha-savalila-purna-sakhya-laksanam

svanubhava-matta-nrtya-kirttanatma-vantanam

The sign of the absolute perfect being, the full Absolute, will be this, that He is dancing because He is overjoyed in his inner satisfaction. He is satisfied with Himself, and He has nothing to search for, to find His satisfaction outside, and He will dance. The dancing attitude is showing that He is full in Himself. And the kirttan, the chanting, that is His distributing that joy to others. That we find in Gauranga. His dancing, that is because He is full in Himself, and the kirttan, the chanting - He is distributing that joy. This is self-evident and this is the sign of the fullest source of the highest absolute, kirttanadvayaika, and that is mentioned in one stanza in prema dhama deva stotram, purna sakha laksanam. The satisfaction, the anandam, ecstasy, in its fullest conception, will have such sign, such symptom - what? That He is dancing in joy with happiness arising within Himself. He is full in Himself and He is chanting, He is giving Himself out to the environment. That should be the highest ideal of the absolute happiness. And that we find in Gauranga. Radha Krishna. Do you follow?

I tried to express this idea in that stanza in Prema Dhama Deva Stotram, and Svarupa Damodara says: radha krishna pranaya vikriti hladini sakti CC1.1.5

Who is Radharani? She is the love of Krishna in a particular form. The object of love of Krishna. So there one is Krishna, and the love the affection for Krishna is appearing in a particular form (Sri Radha). So it belongs together. Krishna is one, one. But still for the pastimes in Dvarapa-yuga They became divided in Vrindavan-lila and became two parties (Radha and Krishna), one predominating (Krishna) and that predominated moiety (Sri Radha). They parted and display in distinct forms with their own paraphernalia and began their pastimes in different way, their play. And again they come together, combine together, and become Gauranga. And He began to distribute Himself to the public. He is saying, "Automatically by nature, come take me, I am yours". He comes in the mood of Radharani. Their own common treasure they began to loot. They allowed themselves to be looted. Both the parties, they began to be looted by the public. Take this. Their treasure, they allowed their treasure to be looted. Both combined ... combined give affection... coming as Gauranga. So Gauranga is our greater shelter.

yatha yatha gaura padaravinde vindeta bhaktim krta punya-rasih

tatha tathotsarpati hrdy akasmat radha padambhoja sudhambhurasih

"As much as you surrender to the lotus feet of Sri Gauranga, you'll find yourself safely situated in the service of Radha-Govinda. Don't try to approach Radha-Govinda directly; if you do, there may be some difficulty. But the lotus feet of Sri Gauranga will take you there safely."

If you can secure a card admission card from Gauranga, you will find you are automatically that you are present in the harem of Krishna. You are in the group of Radharani. So He is increasing the circle Himself. Admission card is issued from here. And you are instructed in the confidential circle of service there. So Nityananda Prabhu tried His best: "Anyhow you can, connect yourself with Gauranga. Oh fallen souls, my friends, connect yourself with Gauranga. It is very easy for you. For fallen souls it is very easy to make connection with Gauranga, and then automatically everything will come unexpectedly to you, for your inner heart's satisfaction. Any way you can, connect yourself!" From door to door he came past. "Have a connection with Gauranga, have a connection with Gauranga and you will be richest of the rich." Door to door Nityananda Prabhu wandered.

bhaja gauranga kaha gauranga laha gauranga nama

yei jana gauranga bhaje, sei amara pranan

He began to roll on the doorstep of the customers, 'Take Gauranga take Gauranga' with tears in his eyes, that golden body began to roll on the door of so many customers. Accept Gauranga. Take Gauranga. You don't know what is passing away from your door, accept Gauranga. This is Nityananda. nitaiyer karuna habe braje radha krishna pabe Everything will be in your fist. Try to have the grace of Nityananda. He can give Gauranga. And if you get Gauranga you have got everything. The consent of both the parties, Radha-Krishna. Not only the sound of this message we must receive but also the meaning. The meaning, thereby we are to follow, try to follow. What is meant by these sounds.

From the external side not to consider this statement of Nityananda Prabhu, but the substance within the statement, we are to search for that. We are to search for the meaning. The real meaning, the mark, what does it mean? The substance, brahma jijnasa and krishnanusandhana: search for reality the beautiful. Dive deep. Dive. Die to Live, not only here in the surface of your sensual experience, you are to dive, dive deep in to the reality. adau sraddha tathau sadhu sanga bhajana kriya anartha nivritti nistha ruci asakti bhava, then prema. So many stages we are to pass through to dive deep into the reality. So many superficial covers, so many stages of our mental covers we are to pass through and then we are to come in touch of the reality. Die to live. So our state and our progress, our progressive state, that was the search; that we are to pass through, all these covers. And then enter into the substantial world.

Adau sraddha, first faith; then sadhu sanga, then keeping company with those aryans, sadhu sanga. bhajana kriya then as they advise us to go and discharge those duties. Cultivation culture to hear to speak to receive to distribute and so many others, recollection and serving attitude, then anartha nivritti the ulterior demands of our superficial nature they will disappear, they will disappear. Then nistha, a continuos aspiration for Krishna for the inner substance. Continuous without any interuption by any superficial demand, nistha, ruci then taste will be created for that. Before that the taste cannot be relied on. But when after continuous attempt for the truth the taste will come that is reliable genuine taste. Then that will increase into asakti, when we can't tolerate any separation from that taste of particular, that truth,asakti. Then bhava, superior? connection with reality. Then prema, when we enter into the reality, and then the positive development: snehaman pramoya radha kunda bhava mahabhaya

Positive participation into reality, we create so many things in our minds. The process of positive progess is there. It is not imagination but the process of elimination. The progressive path involves elimination and acceptance. It is there. Then what is real to us at present, the sense experience world, that world will evaporate and we shall find ourselves in the midst of the inner world, like a yogi, like a deep scientific scholar engaged in research for getting knowledge about the world. But that is very meagre example more deep and interest we will find there. Rather it is like the forgetfulness of the scholar who becomes totally absorbed in his study.

We are living in the covering over the surface (the superficial layer that covers reality). The world we are living in, we are experiencing misleading things, because we are living only in the (superficial) cover. But what is the inner substance of reality we do not care to know, when we are absorbed in illusion. And that reality, we are to go towards reality. Here, it is the cover floating on our consciousness. But leaving the cover we shall try to enter into deep consciousness. A consciousness! You leave the experience of this world of sense experience, thinking "I don't like this, I want to go deeper'. We are to enter into our own consciousness. Reality, it is a part of our own consciousness. It is a part of the whole consciousness. So we are to tackle the extensive consciousness and we are a part of that. Subjective exploitation, not in the objective side - exploiting nature.

Subjective consciousness: we shall have to enter into the causal truth. Gradually we shall find these things. The source of knowledge we are to tackle. We are to enter into the fountain from where the water is oozing. Water is coming outside through the fountain. We are to enter into the fountain to understand what type of water it is, and how it is flowing. In what way. Enter into the source of knowledge to find out wherefrom it comes. Against the current that is flowing towards material life, we are to move against that current. And what is the product of the current just floating on our senses? That feeling we feel on the surface with our senses is reactionary (for every action there is a reaction). So we are to enter into the source to have proper exploitation with the help of the agents there.

Atma, paramatma then bhagavan conception - bhajaniya. Ultimately we shall find that we are to serve the wonderful substance of ecstasy, and if we can engage ourselves in slavery to that Higher Reality, we shall find our fortune is fulfilled. Such high high kind of pleasure is there, satisfaction is there. Anyhow, neglectfully disconnecting with the material life and connecting with the Higher world, if we get with that then we shall think all our fulfillment, our final fulfillment, we have got. A slight connection of that treasure, the source of all knowledge and all ecstasy, will be for our benefit. Subjective enquiry, concsious enquiry, going against the mundane current, is our path. We shall have to go forward.

----------

I have the original talk on MP3 if anyone wants to download it.

40 mb mp3. A very very large file

Gaurasundara Prabhu I don't have time to type out the whole thing. It runs to about 10 pages and builds upon issues that are discussed and clarified in other chapters. That book Sri Krishna Chaitanya is a very complex presentation.

Briefly, what Professor Sanyal discusses is that even Sri Gadadhara Pandit who is Sri Radha in another form was practicing vaidhi bhakti prior to the return of Mahaprabhu from Gaya. But when Gauranga manifest this pastime all the others became (my word) electrified by the dynamo of Gauranga's mood.

But what is the "Real Thing"? And then what is the "cheap imitation"?

 

The real thing, according to Srila Sridhar Maharaj and Srila Govinda Maharaj, is to engage in Seva of the Deities in the temple of Sri Sri Guru Gaurangau Gandharvika Giridhari.

If you want to meditate on pastimes, if you want to engage in the high smaranam on Radha-Govinda Lila, meditate on the pastime of putting flowers at the feet of Sri Sri Guru Gaurangau Gandharvika Giridhari in the temple.

So your guru can tell Gita Govinda to Western disciples, although his guru forbid it and Sripad Narayana Maharaja may not be quailified to give Hari katha on rasik subjects? Why? Is it just ma guru jagat guru? Is not an unqualified reciter of rasik Hari kathas the very definition of "cheap imitation"? Try to look more closely at what you are writing an see if you are being influenced by a sectarian view. Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur wrote in Krsna Samhita that sectarianism is a natural byproduct of the Absolute Truth. He further explained that it is a difficult obstacle to overcome especially for kannisthas like ourselves.

 

From your angle of vision things seem to be this way. But we disciples of Srila Sridhar Maharaj are looking at things from a viewpoint diametrically opposite to you. From where we stand the pathway to the spiritual world looks like a pathway full of chores such as washing pots and cleaning drains. We will leave you on your own to enjoy thinking about the many details of nitya-lila that are contained in Gita Govinda, for we have much work to do in this material world cleaning pots and throwing out garbage.

matala harijana kirtana range pujala raga-patha gaurava bhange

No problemo Prabhu

Murali Mohan Prabhu, the entire Prappana Jivanamrtam is here:

www.mandala.com.au/prapanna

This is beautiful

If we could limit ourselves to speaking about things like this then we might have been friends.

Alas, things worked out differenty....

In Sri Krishna Chaitanya by professor sanyal, volume two, first chapter, he goes into a very elaborate description of this pastime you are recounting. Incredible and amazing things are written there!

Hare Krishna

Hare Krishna

Krishna Krishna

Hare Hare

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in Jaiva Dharma, Chapter Fifteen:

 

The conclusion is this: the individual souls are manifested by the jiva-shakti. They are not manifested by the cit-shakti.

 

Its all pretty clear to me

Suhotra Prabhu concludes his article with these two paragraphs:

Perhaps you still have a doubt about how a soul comes to think himself independent. It can be postulated that before he assumed the post of Brahma, that soul must have been with Krishna in His pastimes within the eternal realm of Goloka. How is it that this particular soul goes from there to the post of Brahma?

The answer is that Krishna’s pastimes are expansive. As Krishna expands His pastimes, so also the souls expand within Him into further realms of His divine lila or play. The creation of the material world is one more expanded lila. Thus the Lord Himself personally enters the material world, and so also do His devotees. Even the eternal residents of Goloka Vrindavan enter the material world at the time Krishna personally descends Himself, as He did 5000 years ago in Bhauma Vrindavan (the Vrindavan on earth, in India, 90 miles south of New Delhi). Some of these residents assume forms different than their Goloka identities. Narada Muni, for instance, the sage who preaches bhakti throughout the 3 worlds, is originally Madhumangala, a friend of Krishna’s in Goloka. And Narada is the son of Brahma. Brahma is a role a jiva can get in the Lord’s pastime of creation if that jiva is interested in participating in the creation-lila from a position apparently as independent as that of God Himself. This particular position (Brahma) is the one from which a soul *may* fall (it is not guaranteed he will) from the Lord’s association into enmeshment in creation. In other words, rather than simply participating in creation from a transcendental position (as do the residents of Vrindavan and Narada Muni), such a soul, by attachment to his lordly position, becomes *part* of the creation… life after life.

The implication of the idea above expressed by Suhotra Prabhu is that the jiva souls, indeed the entire jiva tattva, have been manifest from the cit-shakti. In the scenario outlined by Suhotra Prabhu an eternal resident of the spiritual world will become a fallen jiva soul. However:

krsnera svarupa ara sakti traya jnana

yanra haya, tanra nahi krsnete ajnana

cic-chakti svarupa-sakti antaranga-nama

tahara vaibhava ananta vaikunthadi dhama

maya sakti bahiranga jagat-karana

yahara vaibhava ananta brahmandera gana

jiva sakti tatasthakya nahi yara anta

mukhya tina sakti tara vibheda ananta

ei ta’ svarupa gana ara tina sakti

sabara asraya krsna, krsne sabara sthiti

One who knows the real feature of Sri Krsna and His three different energies cannot remain ignorant about Him. The cit sakti, which is also called svarupa sakti or antaranga sakti, displays many varied manifestations. It sustains the kingdom of God and its paraphernalia. The external energy, called maya sakti, is the cause of innumerable universes with varied material potencies. The marginal potency, which is between these two, consists of the numberless living beings. These are the three principal energies, which have unlimited categories and subdivisions.

C.C.Adi. 2.96, 101-104

In regard to the proposition that souls depart from the cit-sakti and become jivas, because of some bad attitude or bad desire or whatever, there is the following teaching given by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in Jaiva Dharma, Chapter Fifteen:

Vrajanatha: The individual soul is not created by maya. That I accept. Maya has the power to dominate the individual soul. That I understand. This is my question: Does the spiritual potency (cit-shakti) place the individual soul on the border (tatastha) of matter and spirit?

Babaji: No. The cit-shakti is the full manifestation of Lord Krishna’s potency. Whatever she creates is eternally perfect (nitya-siddha). The individual spirit souls are not eternally perfect. By engaging in the activities of devotional service (sadhana) they may become perfect (sadhana-siddha) and thus enjoy spiritual bliss exactly like that enjoyed by the eternally perfect (nitya-siddha) beings. The four kinds of gopi-friends (sakhi) of Srimati Radharani are eternally perfect beings (nitya-siddha). They are manifested from the form of Srimati Radharani, who is the cit-shakti Herself. All the individual spirit souls are manifested from Lord Krishna’s jiva-shakti. The cit-shakti is Lord Krishna’s complete potency (purna-shakti). The individual souls (jiva-shakti) are counted among Lord Krishna’s incomplete potencies (apurna-shakti). From the complete potency complete and perfect things are manifested. From the incomplete potency all the individual souls, who are atomic fragments of consciousness, are manifested. Lord Krishna manifests different kinds of entities according to the different kinds of potencies He employs to create them. When He is manifested in His cit-shakti, He appears as Krishna and as Narayana, the master of Vaikuntha. When He is manifested in the jiva-shakti, He appears as Baladeva, His pastime form (vilasa-murti) in Vraja. When He is manifested in the maya-shakti, He appears as the three forms of Karanodakasayi Visnu, Garbhodakasayi Visnu and Ksirodakasayi Visnu. In Vraja He appears in His original form, as Krishna, a form manifested by His complete potency. Appearing as Baladeva, He manifests His sesa-tattva (nature of Lord Sesa). In this way He manifests the eight kinds of services the eternally liberated associates offer to Him. Again in Vaikuntha He appears as Sesa-Sankarsana and manifests the eight kinds of service His eternal associates offer to Lord Narayana. Lord Sankarsana incarnates as Maha-Visnu. He becomes the resting-place of the jiva-shakti and appears as the Supersoul in the hearts of all the individual souls residing in the material world. All these individual souls are attracted to maya. As long as they do not attain the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and take shelter of the Lord’s spiritual hladini-shakti, they are defeated by Maya. Numberless souls are defeated by Maya and cast into Her prison. They are the followers of Maya’s three modes. The conclusion is this: the individual souls are manifested by the jiva-shakti. They are not manifested by the cit-shakti.

Jivas are not manifested by the cit-shakti. Jivas originate from Mahavishnu’s rays of Brahman effulgence.

<!-- end .comments-middle --> Comment posted by Murali Das on April 13th, 2007

विज्ञानसारथिर्यस्तु मनः प्रग्रहवान्नरः ।

सोऽध्वनः पारमाप्नोति तद्विष्णोः परमं पदम् ॥ ९ ॥

9 A man who has discrimination for his charioteer, who holds the reins of the mind firmly, reaches the end of the road. He arrives at last at the supreme goal (parama padam), the place of Vishnu.

COMMENTARY

The abode of Vishnu is the highest state of existence.

This verse echoes the following verse of the Rg Veda, the oldest scripture of the Aryan civilization of ancient <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">India</st1:place></st1:country-region>.

om tad vishnu paramam padam sada pashyanti surayah diviva caksuratatam, tad vipraso vipanyavo jagrivamsah samindhate visnor yat paramam padam om

(Rg Veda Samhita, Mandala 1, verse 22.20)

Translation: “The awakened man (vipra) is always conscious of Lord Vishnu's feet, which he sees in his meditation. He sees the Lord's feet over his head like the sun in the sky (paramam padam). The devotee is always conscious of that ideal. The reality of Sri Vishnu is conspicuous and very clear to him (diviva caksur atatam). The reality of Vishnu is as clear and real as the sun in the sky (sada pasyanti surayah). ”

We should all try to live and move in that consciousness. We are all children of that spiritual, conscious realm, the glowing state of existence where Sri Vishnu is residing. But through our misfortune we have all fallen from the light into this world of rebirth, death and karma.

Man is not merely an animal wandering over the earth, mountains and jungles. An Aryan, a real man, is a man who has no desire to live as the animals are living: eating, sleeping, procreating and fighting. A real man feels detached from lust, anger and animalistic behavior. The enlightened sage is situated in the divine consciousness of Sri Vishnu. In the hymns of the sages who wrote the ancient literature of the Rg Veda, the sages addressed their Lord, the Absolute Being, by the name "Sri Vishnu". Those Aryans who founded the ancient civilization of <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">India</st1:place></st1:country-region> were always constantly meditating on the Highest Entity, Brahman, Who they called “Vishnu”. Lord Vishnu is within the ocean of eternity and He is pervading everywhere and every thing. The holy feet of Vishnu, His feet, His lowest part, He is showing to us. The sages (rishis) of the past age were always conscious of this fact. This was the real basis of their life.

इन्द्रियेभ्यः परा ह्यर्था अर्थेभ्यश्च परं मनः ।

मनसस्तु परा बुद्धिर्बुद्धेरात्मा महान्परः ॥ १० ॥

10 Beyond the senses are the objects the senses know and experience. Beyond these objects is the mind that comprehends them. Beyond the mind is the faculty of intellect and knowledge. Beyond the intellect is the individual self (jiva atma).

महतः परमव्यक्तमव्यक्तात्पुरुषः परः ।

पुरुषान्न परं किंचित्सा काष्ठा सा परा गतिः ॥ ११ ॥

11 Beyond the individual jiva self there is Maya (the Unmanifest, the Mahat Tattva). Maya is superior to the jiva soul in that Maya has the power to overwhelm and entangle a jiva soul in the complexities of life within nature. But beyond Maya is the eternal Person known as the Purusha (Vishnu), the Higher Self. Beyond the Purusha there is nothing higher. He is the culmination. He is the highest goal of the journey.

COMMENTARY

The word “Vishnu” contains the Sanskrit root sound “visl” meaning “to pervade”. Vishnu is, therefore, the One who is all-pervading. Many other attributes of Vishnu are mentioned in hymns of the Rg Veda. He is said to be upholding the sky and earth (7.99.3). He maintains heaven (7.99.2). His form is extensive (7.99.1). His body is big (7.99.4). He created the sun, dawn and fire (7.99.4). He has a blissful spouse named Lakshmi (1.156.2). He comes to us when His Name is invoked (1.155.6). The Rg Paristha furthermore tells us that Vishnu bears a mace, discus and conch, and that emancipation (mukti) and the supreme goal of life (parama-padam) exist in the plane of existence of Vishnu (Rg Paristha 20.6).

In the Maitrayani-samhita of the Krishna Yajurveda there is a gayatri psalm with meditation on Vishnu, who is implored to bestow enlightenment. This gayatri mantra runs as follows: om tad keshavaya vidmahe narayanaya dhimahi tanno vishnu prachodayat. In this gayatri hymn the other names of Vishnu “Keshava” and “Narayana” are invoked. Keshava is a name of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>.

एष सर्वेषु भूतेषु गूढोऽऽत्मा न प्रकाशते ।

दृश्यते त्वग्र्यया बुद्ध्या सूक्ष्मया सूक्ष्मदर्शिभिः ॥ १२ ॥

12 That Supreme Self, hidden in all beings, does not reveal Himself to everyone. But He is seen as subtle Truth by the seers through their one-pointed meditation and searching intellect.

=====

From Kathopanishad (SCSMath)

If I tell people a few mantras were revealed to me last night after dinner, who will accept that?

 

It is generally accepted mantras will not be revealed anymore. So no one is going to believe any new revelations.

 

Cheers

"Babies come equipped with basic speech perception capacities, as if it were hardwired"

- Peter Jusczyk, (John Hopkins medical research fellow).

Some knowledge we humans possess is learned through experience whereas other knowledge is innate. The knowledge that "I exist" is innate knowledge.

Human beings have an innate ability to understand language. Building upon the innate knowledge each newborn infant possesses, humans aquire additional information throughout their lifetime and extend the boundaries of their understanding. It has been demonstrated in clinical research that infants who are born in stimulating environments "exercise their brain" more and develop larger brains.

"Babies have a biological need to learn. Any stimulation through his special senses (hearing, sight, taste, smell and touch) provided during fetal life and preschool years has profound effect on growth and maturation of brain. It has been shown that stimulation program can promote faster growth, improve coordination of muscular movements, increase span of concentration and raise baby’s IQ by as much as 15 points."

http://www.indianpediatrics.net/mar2003/mar-213-220.htm

 

A newborn infant's brain is pre-wired to pay attention to all the language sounds it hears. The newborn infant can identify different types of messages in the sounds spoken to it by other humans. It is now known that an infant has the innate ability to recognize friendly and threatening faces it sees, as well as sounds.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/01/050104114623.htm

Evidence exists to suggest that all newborn babies have an innate understanding that "Ma" exists.

<table> <tbody> <tr> <td>Swahili </td> <td>mama </td> <td>baba </td></tr> <tr> <td>Kikuyu (east Africa) </td> <td>nana </td> <td>baba </td></tr> <tr> <td>Xhosa (South Africa) </td> <td>-mama </td> <td>-tata </td></tr> <tr> <td>Tagalog (Philippines) </td> <td>nanay </td> <td>tatay </td></tr> <tr> <td>Malay </td> <td>emak </td> <td>bapa </td></tr> <tr> <td>Romanian </td> <td>mama </td> <td>tata </td></tr> <tr> <td>Welsh </td> <td>mam </td> <td>tad </td></tr> <tr> <td>Urdu </td> <td>mang </td> <td>bap </td></tr> <tr> <td>Turkish </td> <td>ana, anne </td> <td>baba </td></tr> <tr> <td>Pipil (El Salvador) </td> <td>naan </td> <td>tatah </td></tr> <tr> <td>Kobon (New Guinea) </td> <td>amy </td> <td>bap </td></tr> <tr> <td>Basque </td> <td>ama </td> <td>aita </td></tr> <tr> <td>Hungarian </td> <td>anya </td> <td>apa </td></tr> <tr> <td>Dakota (USA) </td> <td>ena </td> <td>ate </td></tr> <tr> <td>Nahuatl (Mexico) </td> <td>naan </td> <td>ta’ </td></tr> <tr> <td>Luo (Kenya) </td> <td>mama </td> <td>baba </td></tr> <tr> <td>Apalai (Amazon) </td> <td>aya </td> <td>papa </td></tr> <tr> <td>Chechen (Caucasus) </td><td>naana </td> <td>daa </td></tr> <tr> <td>Cree (Canada) </td> <td>-mama </td> <td>-papa </td></tr> <tr> <td>Quechua (Ecuador) </td> <td>mama </td> <td>tayta </td></tr> <tr> <td>Mandarin Chinese </td> <td>mama </td> <td>baba </td></tr> <tr></tr></tbody> </table>

In cultures all around the world babies have an innate tendency to repeat particular easy-to-say sounds such as the sound "Ma". The sound "Ma" was explored by the rishis, long ago; and from this root sound "Ma" they entered into the spirit of "Ma" and saw the entity "Ma" that this sound signifies. This signifier "ma" re-appears in the minds of the newborn generations of humankind; this signifier "Ma" can be said to be a gestalt or a pre-existing idea within the collective understanding of humankind.

Taking this one step further, we may say the rishis of the past were able to intuitively understand knowldege that all people are born with but few people have realized.

The rishis could understand the intrinsic meaning of spoken sounds, beginning with the sound OM.

From realization of OM comes realization of the entire Veda, and from the Veda comes the Bhagavata. In this way, the Bhagavata becomes known in this world. The Bhagavata is a revelation coming from the Universal Mind.

gHari, prior to this statement you quoted from Jaiva Dharma, in the same chapter (Chapter Fifteen) we read:

Vrajanatha: The individual soul is not created by maya. That I accept. Maya has the power to dominate the individual soul. That I understand. This is my question: Does the spiritual potency (cit-shakti) place the individual soul on the border (tatastha) of matter and spirit?

 

Babaji: No. The cit-shakti is the full manifestation of Lord Krishna's potency. Whatever she creates is eternally perfect (nitya-siddha). The individual spirit souls are not eternally perfect. By engaging in the activities of devotional service (sadhana) they may become perfect (sadhana-siddha) and thus enjoy spiritual bliss exactly like that enjoyed by the eternally perfect (nitya-siddha) beings. The four kinds of gopi-friends (sakhi) of Srimati Radharani are eternally perfect beings (nitya-siddha). They are manifested from the form of Srimati Radharani, who is the cit-shakti Herself. All the individual spirit souls are manifested from Lord Krishna's jiva-shakti. The cit-shakti is Lord Krishna's complete potency (purna-shakti). The individual souls (jiva-shakti) are counted among Lord Krishna's incomplete potencies (apurna-shakti). From the complete potency complete and perfect things are manifested. From the incomplete potency all the individual souls, who are atomic fragments of consciousness, are manifested. Lord Krishna manifests different kinds of entities according to the different kinds of potencies He employs to create them. When He is manifested in His cit-shakti, He appears as Krishna and as Narayana, the master of Vaikuntha. When He is manifested in the jiva-shakti, He appears as Baladeva, His pastime form (vilasa-murti) in Vraja. When He is manifested in the maya-shakti, He appears as the three forms of Karanodakasayi Visnu, Garbhodakasayi Visnu and Ksirodakasayi Visnu. In Vraja He appears in His original form, as Krishna, a form manifested by His complete potency. Appearing as Baladeva, He manifests His sesa-tattva (nature of Lord Sesa). In this way He manifests the eight kinds of services the eternally liberated associates offer to Him. Again in Vaikuntha He appears as Sesa-Sankarsana and manifests the eight kinds of service His eternal associates offer to Lord Narayana. Lord Sankarsana incarnates as Maha-Visnu. He becomes the resting-place of the jiva-shakti and appears as the Supersoul in the hearts of all the individual souls residing in the material world. All these individual souls are attracted to maya. As long as they do not attain the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and take shelter of the Lord's spiritual hladini-shakti, they are defeated by Maya. Numberless souls are defeated by Maya and cast into Her prison. They are the followers of Maya's three modes. The conclusion is this: the individual souls are manifested by the jiva-shakti. They are not manifested by the cit-shakti.

Previously on this Forums page someone (possibly a non-existent person) known as Pradyumna Swami stated

the jiva sakti or influence of the nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-VIGRAHA (the real bodily Krishna Conscious self) in the Vaikuntha’s is engaged in perpetual loving selfless devotional service however, the sakti means also the generation of consciousness. Therefore it is a fact that the jiva DOES manifest as a secondary conscious self that is transferred to the mahat-tattva cloud when one rebels against Krishna.

Vrajanatha: The individual soul is not created by maya. That I accept. Maya has the power to dominate the individual soul. That I understand. This is my question: Does the spiritual potency (cit-shakti) place the individual soul on the border (tatastha) of matter and spirit?

 

Babaji: No.

Yes and no.

 

In the introduction to Sri Krishna Samhita, Thakura Bhaktivinoda wrote:

 

Shrimad Bhagavatam has no birth because it is eternal, without beginning or end. Nevertheless it is extremely desirable to ascertain when, where, and by whom this literature was manifested according to modern opinion. Modern scholars have concluded that Vyasadeva wrote Shrimad Bhagavatam on the bank of the Sarasvati River under the instructions of Narada Muni, the knower of the truth. Being dissatisfied after writing the scriptures, Vyasadeva presented the Shrimad Bhagavatam after visualizing the Absolute Truth through samadhi. He presented Shrimad Bhagavatam for the benefit of third-class people, who are unable to understand the deep meaning of a subject. Those great personalities who wrote the scriptures were all known as Vyasas, and they were all respected by people in general. In this regard, the title Vyasa indicates all Vyasas, beginning from Vedavyasa up to the Vyasa who wrote Shrimad Bhagavatam. When he was unable to ascertain the Absolute Truth after studying all the scriptures, then Vyasadeva, who is expert in the spiritual science, withdrew his mind and speech from those literatures, realized the Truth through samadhi, and then wrote the Shrimad Bhagavatam. The modern scholars also say that Shrimad Bhagavatam appeared in Dravida-desha (South India) about 1,000 years ago. The living entity has a natural inclination for being attached to his native place. Therefore even great personalities have this inclination to some extent. Due to the glorification found in the Shrimad Bhagavatam of Dravida-desha, which is not very ancient, it appears that Vyasadeva was a native of that place. If the glories of Dravida-desha were mentioned in other scriptures, then we would have no right to give this conclusion. Our conclusion is further confirmed by the mention of a very recent holy place in the Shrimad Bhagavatam. It is stated in the Venkata-mahatmya, which is popular in the South, that Venkata-tirtha was established when Lakshmidevi went to Kolapura from Chola. Kolapura is situated to the south of Satara. The Chalukya kings defeated the Cholas in the eight century and established a large kingdom in that province. Therefore Lakshmi went to Kolapura and Venkata was established at that time. For this reason, they do not hesitate to accept that Shrimad Bhagavatam was written in the ninth century. Shathakopa, Yamunacarya, and Ramanujacarya vigorously preached Vaishnavism in the tenth century. They were also from Dravida-desha. They all highly respected Shrimad Bhagavatam, so we cannot accept that Shrimad Bhagavatam was written after the ninth century. Furthermore, when Shridhara Svami wrote his commentary on the Shrimad Bhagavatam in the eleventh century, there were already a few commentaries like Hanumad-bhashya available. So there is no need to further consider this matter. I have not found a means of determining the family name of the author of Shrimad Bhagavatam. Whoever he may be, we are grateful, and with awe and reverence we accept that great personality, Vyasadeva, as the spiritual master of the swanlike people.

 

 

Thanks for the clarification.

As I read it, it seemed to be an article presented by the Sun staff.

<center></center> BY: SUN STAFF

Apr 11, CANADA (SUN) — Bhagavat Sandarbha by Srila Jiva Goswami - Section 64.

No One Falls From Vaikuntha, Which is Beyond Matter.

Sri Suta Gosvami simultaneously describes two qualities of Vaikuntha--it is beyond the material world and it is a place from where no one falls down (S.B.12.11.19)

"O brahmanas, the Lord's umbrella is His spiritual abode, Vaikuntha, where there is no fear.

No One Falls From Vaikuntha

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/sandarbhas/bhagavat/sandarbhas64.htm

Well done, Rocana.

I see no point in any of this. Bye.

Bhaktirasamrtasindhu 1.2.295

seva sadhaka rupena siddha rupena catra hi |

tad bhava lipsuna karya vraja lokanusratah ||

Translation: Following after the inhabitants of Vraja, one should perform service in one's physical body and in one's siddha body, with a desire for a particular bhava.

Jiva Goswami's Commentary

Sadhaka-rupa refers to the physical body of the practitioner of sadhana bhakti. Siddha rupa refers to the body which is suitable for one's desired service, and which has been developed by internal meditation.

--------------------------

NOTE: The siddha rupa arises from within the consciousness of the sadhana-bhakta. When a bhakta has a pure desire to offer a flower with a pure, beautiful child's hand which is like the hand of the Vrajabasi group leader that one is following (Rupa Manjari etc), then the consciousness of having a pure spiritual hand will emerge from within one's consciousness, naturally. In this way, the whole of the siddha rupa will become manifest through the power of pure devotion manifesting through the grace of Guru and Sri Radha Govinda in the pure consciousness of a bhakta.

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Srimad Bhagavatam 1.6.28

prayujyamane mayi tam

suddham bhagavatim tanum

arabdha-karma-nirvano

nyapatat panca-bhautikah

SYNONYMS

prayujyamane -- having been awarded; mayi -- on me; tam -- that; suddham -- transcendental; bhagavatim -- fit for associating with the Personality of Godhead; tanum -- body; arabdha -- acquired; karma -- fruitive work; nirvanah -- prohibitive; nyapatat -- quit; panca-bhautikah -- body made of five material elements.

TRANSLATION

Having been awarded a transcendental body befitting an associate of the Personality of Godhead, I quit the body made of five material elements, and thus all acquired fruitive results of work [karma] stopped.

PURPORT

Informed by the Personality of Godhead that he would be awarded a transcendental body befitting the Lord's association, Narada got his spiritual body as soon as he quitted his material body. This transcendental body is free from material affinity and invested with three primary transcendental qualities, namely eternity, freedom from material modes, and freedom from reactions of fruitive activities. The material body is always afflicted with the lack of these three qualities. A devotee's body becomes at once surcharged with the transcendental qualities as soon as he is engaged in the devotional service of the Lord. It acts like the magnetic influence of a touchstone upon iron. The influence of transcendental devotional service is like that. Therefore change of the body means stoppage of the reaction of three qualitative modes of material nature upon the pure devotee. There are many instances of this in the revealed scriptures. Dhruva Maharaja and Prahlada Maharaja and many other devotees were able to see the Personality of Godhead face to face apparently in the same body. This means that the quality of a devotee's body changes from material to transcendence. That is the opinion of the authorized Gosvamis via the authentic scriptures. In the Brahma-samhita it is said that beginning from the indra-gopa germ up to the great Indra, King of heaven, all living beings are subjected to the law of karma and are bound to suffer and enjoy the fruitive results of their own work. Only the devotee is exempt from such reactions, by the causeless mercy of the supreme authority, the Personality of Godhead.

Isn't that a problem with your heart? Attack unless you have been told not to?

Whatever...

Ananta das Babaji is the disciple of Kunjabihari das Babaji.

In the book Manjari-svarupa-nirupana written by Kunjabihari das Babaji he wrote:

In the Lord's abode, there are an unlimited number of forms, all suitable for rendering service to him. Every one of those forms is non-different from him, being expanded from his effulgence; each one is eternal, full of consciousness and bliss. They are the crowning, central jewels of the spiritual world - its very life. These unlimited spiritual bodies are the perfected forms of the liberated souls which are awarded to an individual, according to his taste, when he reaches the state of absolute liberation. This state is called attainment of the spiritual body. All these spiritual bodies are eternal for they exist even before the liberated souls enter them and will continue to exist ever afterward. However, prior to the entry of the liberated soul they are in an inactive state. As all of the unlimited souls are servants of the Lord, each one of them has a spiritual body in the Lord's abode just suitable for rendering service to the Lord. When an individual becomes qualified for direct service to the Lord by the grace of the Goddess of Devotion, then the Supreme Lord awards him that spiritual body.

-Translation by Madhavananda das.

 

According to this school of belief, a devotee must be “awarded” or “given” a spiritual body (siddha-deha) by their guru so they can practice the meditation that they are assisting Sri Radha in the divine pastimes of the spiritual world.

However in the Vedanta Sutra (4.4.1) and in Sri Sanatana Goswami's book Brhadbagavatamrtam (2.2) it is stated that a soul never gets given a spiritual body at any time. The spiritual body is an eternal and inseparable facet of the individual soul, the jiva-atma.

Followers of the siddha-pranali doctrine assert that a devotee needs to be given knowledge about their siddha form by their guru before they can engage in the practices of raganuga bhakti. New initiates are given a manjari name and are told about their svarupa-siddha (spiritual body) by Ananta dasa babaji, so that these disciples can engage in the practices of raganuga bhakti. It is asserted that if you do not know about your siddha-deha then you cannot practice raganuga bhakti. And of course since Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakura did not advocate this type of sadhana it is supposed that Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakura's devotees are not following the authentic tradition of raganuga bhakti.

The proper way of advancement in the path of raganuga bhakti is

described in Bhaktirasamrtasindhu 1.2.291, where Srila Rupa

Goswami states:

tatra adhikari:

ragatmikaika-nistha ye vraja-vasi-janadayah

tesam bhavaptaye lubdho bhaved atradhikaravan

Those eligible for Raganuga Bhakti:

Those who have the feeling: “I want feelings of attraction for

Krishna like Ragatmikaikanistha, the feelings felt by the

Vrajabasis, the eternal residents of Vraja” – they are eligible to

engage in Raganuga Bhakti.

Thus, a devotee need only have an intense attraction to the type of devotion that is practiced by the Vrajabasis and one need not know about ekadasa-bhava in order to engage in raganuga bhakti.

In this connection there is a very beautiful verse and purport by Srila Prabhupada in the Srimad Bhagavatam.

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 10.9.3

 

kṣaumaḿ vāsaḥ pṛthu-kaṭi-taṭe bibhratī sūtra-naddhaḿ

putra-sneha-snuta-kuca-yugaḿ jāta-kampaḿ ca subhrūḥ

rajjv-ākarṣa-śrama-bhuja-calat-kańkaṇau kuṇḍale ca

svinnaḿ vaktraḿ kabara-vigalan-mālatī nirmamantha

TRANSLATION

 

Dressed in a saffron-yellow sari, with a belt tied about her full hips, mother Yaśodā pulled on the churning rope, laboring considerably, her bangles and earrings moving and vibrating and her whole body shaking. Because of her intense love for her child, her breasts were wet with milk. Her face, with its very beautiful eyebrows, was wet with perspiration, and mālatī flowers were falling from her hair.

 

PURPORT

 

Anyone who desires to be Kṛṣṇa conscious in motherly affection or parental affection should contemplate the bodily features of mother Yaśodā. It is not that one should desire to become like Yaśodā, for this is Māyāvāda. Either in parental affection or conjugal love, friendship or servitorship — in any way — we must follow in the footsteps of the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana, not try to become like them. Therefore this description is provided here. Advanced devotees must cherish this description, always thinking of mother Yaśodā's features — how she was dressed, how she was working and perspiring, how beautifully the flowers were arranged in her hair, and so on. One should take advantage of the full description provided here by thinking of mother Yaśodā in maternal affection for Kṛṣṇa.

 

Be this as it may, there are numerous examples in the history of our Gaudiya Sampradaya where devotees have realized their svarupa-siddhi (spiritual form) simply through executing devotional service with faith and love under the guidance of a genuine Guru. Nobody needs to be told what their svarupa-siddhi is. When the time is ripe we will automatically realize it. Examples from history I will allude to are Syamananda Prabhu (who was initiated by a guru in sakhy-rasa, Hridaya-Chaitanya Goswami, but who later realized his own form as a manjari), Madhusudana das babaji and the sages who saw Ramachandra in the forest and desired to be born as gopis in their next life.

These are very high topics to discuss and in fact they should not be discussed in a casual way on the internet. Radha Govinda dasa if you really are a disciple of Sripad Jayapataka Maharaj then why not ask your Guru about this? It would be more appropriate for you to ask him than to hear me making statements about this topic.

Ok,

Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Dev Goswami Maharaj says that Jayapataka Swami is his dear friend. All glory to the Vaishnavas!