muralidhar_das

You state:

 

"In fact there is a situation where, generation after generation, the Gaudiya Vaishnavas are giving instruction about "siddha-deha" to new initiates, with the gurus telling the disciples about their own "siddha name" and

"siddha form", as well as the disciple's form and name: "you are such-and-such manjari"; but in reality these so-called gurus have no real vision of either their own real spiritual form or the spiritual body of their so-called disciples. The so-called gurus haven't realized their own real "siddha form". Nor have they attained the realized the stage of Prema (pure love)."

 

==============

 

As I said previously, a devotee who has attained realzation of "swarup siddhi" will be able tell someone else about their spiritual name and form. They know it - they can describe and explain it. We accept that Srila Saraswati Thakur knew his swarup siddhi and that he could tell a disciple, such as Kunjada, "You are Bimala Manjari". So the proposition that a Guru can give instruction of this type is not in and of itself wrong.

 

What is wrong is that a junior (madhyam or kanistha) Vaishnava who is not a siddha and who has become a guru will go and tell a disciple "you are such-and-such manjari", when in fact that (madhyam or kanistha) Vaishnava acting as a Guru has no REAL PERCEPTION of his disciple's siddha-deha.

 

 

The quote:

<blockquote>

Nowadays in the Gaudiya Vaishnava Sampradaya some immature pancaratrika-mantra traders are presenting imaginary names and forms as the goal and the path of perfection (siddha-pranali); in this way they gratify the minds of their disciples as well as disclose their own

foolishness and ignorance of the Vaishnava literatures

<blockquote>

 

- this is in Srila Saraswati Thakur's book 'Brahmanas and Vaishnavas'.

Govinda,

 

I did not say that a Guru could not see a disciple's spiritual form and then tell the disciple what their spiritual identity is. We know, for example, that Srila Bhatisiddhanta Sarswati Thakur told Kunja Babu, "You are Bimala Manjari".

 

The real issue is summed up in this statement by Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakura:

 

<blockquote>

Nowadays in the Gaudiya Vaishnava Sampradaya some immature pancaratrika-mantra traders are presenting imaginary names and forms as the goal and the path of perfection (siddha-pranali); in this way they gratify the minds of their disciples as well as disclose their own foolishness and ignorance of the Vaishnava literatures.

</blockquote>

 

Govinda, you asked:

 

<blockquote>

a) How do you know these persons are "so-called gurus" and are not bonafide?

b) How do you know that they have not realized their spiritual body or that of their disciples?

c) How do you know that they have not reached the stage of prema?

</blockquote>

 

I've been thinking about this, and there is a very simple answer to this:

 

Among the "traditionalist" Gaudiya Vaishnavas, we see they make a distinction between "siddha" devotees and non-siddha devotees. The non-siddha devotees are still in the stage where they are practicing devotional service, sadhana-bhakti. They are aspiring to attain perfection. Let's refer to this group of devotees as "sadhana-bhaktas". Now the "traditionalists" will admit to you that "siddha" devotees are very rare to find. They will admit to you that out of all the "traditionalist" gurus you might meet, you are likely to find only a few perfected devotees who are siddhas. A devotee in the stage of sadhana who has not entered into the transcendental world is unable truly realize the transcendental form of their own soul - if they did, they would be a "siddha" devotee. Amongst these "sadhana bhaktas" there are some who are becoming gurus and who are telling people, "I am a manjari. So are you. Your manjari name is such-and-such". But these "sadhana bhaktas" have no actual vision of their soul or their disciple's soul. They are just speaking words and perpetuating a tradition.

 

So it is all just as Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakura said:

<blockquote>

immature pancaratrika-mantra traders are presenting imaginary names and forms as the goal and the path of perfection (siddha-pranali)

</blockquote>

 

 

 

govinda said:

==============

Hare Krishna. Reading the above gives rise to the following questions:

 

a) How do you know these persons are "so-called gurus" and are not bonafide?

 

The one and -- only -- sure way for you to be able to so

conclusively say such a thing is if Krishna were to personally tell you so.

 

b) How do you know that they have not realized their spiritual body or that of their disciples?

 

c) How do you know that they have not reached the stage of prema?

 

d) Why make such sweeping critical judgements of other vaishnavas?

 

Are we the seers?

 

Does taking the self-appointed position of judge and jury to pass judgement on them help your otherwise good arguments?

 

============

 

The point is, that the "Siddha Pranali" doctrine as is practiced nowadays by so called gurus such as Gadadhara Prana or Pitambara or Harimohana Gosvami is a concoction. Devotees at the time of Mahaprabhu did not practice that method of giving inititation, and nobody in Mahaprabhu's time said that you needed to know your siddha-deha (swarup siddhi) as a prerequisite when you begin to practice Raganuga Bhakti.

 

So if people are saying that it is necessary for a devotee to know his siddha-deha before they engage in raganuga bhakti (many babajis in Vraja say this) then they are bogus.

 

How do I know they have not reached prema? Well, here is a description of the life of one great babaji from the recent past, along with a mention of his father/guru. And it is clear from the story that the father/guru was not pure. A pure and enlightened Guru would not provide material pleasure and a position of prestige for his son, as this guru did, because a real guru knows what is right and what is wrong.

 

<blockquote>

Sri Tinkadi Gosvami (Sri Kisori-Kisorananda Baba) was born in 1906 in Manoharapur, a village in district Medinipur of West Bengal. His father was Sri Harimohana Gosvami and mother Srimati Suradhuni Devi. The family had a large number of ancestral disciples. The number of Harimohana Gosvami’s own disciples also was not small. The income from donations made by disciples was plentiful. Therefore Tinkadi Gosvami was brought up in luxury. He did not have much interest in studies. So his father stopped his education and began to introduce him to his disciples so that he might adopt gurugiri (the profession of guru) as his profession. He also married him to a girl named Sitalasundari, from whom he had a son. Sri Tinkadi Gosvami lived luxuriously. He wore spotlessly white clothes made of the finest linen and smoked hukka. The long tube of the hukka with a silver mouth-piece was always attached to his mouth. The smoke of the sweet-scented tobacco, specially got from Visnupur, was seen curling round him. He went to the homes of the disciples on palanquin. The hukka and a Brahman cook went with him. The cook followed the palanquin on foot. There was, however, a spark of bhakti in his heart, which often disturbed him and made him think of the futility of worldly life. (From the “Saints of Bengal” by O.B.L. Kapoor, Chapter XXV entitled “ Sri Tinkadi Gosvami”)

 

</blockquote>

 

We see that when he was living in his father's home the father provided him with all sorts of mundane pleasures paid for with money given by disciples. This type of behavior of the caste-goswami gurus was strongly condemned by Prabhupad Srila Saraswati Thakur. In his later life Tinkadi Gosvami, or Tin Kori Goswami, became a renunciate and lived at Radhakunda. Tinkadi Gosvami became well known for his renounced behavior. But my Guru Maharaj, Srila Sridhar Maharaj, was not impressed by the spiritual attainments of Tinkadi Gosvami. And the system Tinkori represents is a deviation from genuine Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

 

 

 

This essay is the end product of several years of debate with people who say we should give up our faith in Srila Prabhupada and the philosophy he preached. I've put all the major points that prove their attacks against Srila Prabhupada are all wrong into one document: this article. Jaya Prabhupada!

GHari

 

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you mean

 

- Muralidhar

<h2>Siddha Pranali</h2>

 

Among those groups who call themselves Gaudiya Vaishnavas there some communities that practice a kind of religious tradition in which a guru tells a new initiate his or her "siddha identity", in order that the new initiate may practices the meditation that they are serving Sri Sri Radha Krishna in the form of a gopi or manjari, a milkmaid of Vraja. According to this system of belief, a new initiate practices the meditation that they are a manjari serving Radha Krishna under the guidance of their guru, who they also imagine to be a manjari. Followers of this practice say it is based upon the teachings of Sri Gopal Guru Goswami, a direct associate of Mahaprabhu, and his disciple Dhyanacandra Goswami.

 

Dhyanacandra Goswami wrote:<blockquote>

In meditation, before anything else, the practitioner should meditate on the manjari forms of his guru-pranali, beginning with his guru, then parama-guru, etc. Then he shall meditate on Sri Radhika and after that Sri Nandanandana Krishna.

- (Paddhati of Dhyanacandra Goswami, 344)</blockquote>

 

However, in regard to this belief system Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakura wrote:

<blockquote>Nowadays in the Gaudiya Vaishnava Sampradaya some immature pancaratrika-mantra traders are presenting imaginary names and forms as the goal and the path of perfection (siddha-pranali); in this way they gratify the minds of their disciples as well as disclose their own foolishness and ignorance of the Vaishnava literatures.</blockquote>

 

In fact there is a situation where, generation after generation, the successive gurus in various "traditional communities" of Gaudiya Vaishnavas are giving instruction about "siddha-deha" to new initiates, with the gurus telling the disciples about their own "siddha name" and "siddha form", as well as the disciple's form and name: "you are such-and-such manjari"; but in reality these so-called gurus have no real vision of either their own real spiritual form or the spiritual body of their so-called disciples. The so-called gurus haven't realized their own real "siddha form". Nor have they attained the realized the stage of Prema (pure love). But they are initiating new disciples and telling the disciple "you are a manjari and your name is such-and-such-manjari". The practices of these people are in fact a mere imitation of the practices of Gopal Guru Goswami, Dhyanacandra Goswami and other devotees of the past who had a real and direct understanding of the transcendental form of their innermost self (swarup siddha).

 

Sri Jiva Goswami stated that a man should not meditate upon the intimate lila of Radha Govinda if he feels any masculine urges. Sri Jiva Goswami's view is that we should all show respect for the intimate pastimes of Lord Krishna within his harem, and not seek to intrude into that sacred place while our minds are contaminated by the false presumption that we are "males" who enjoy the beauty of women:

<blockquote>kintu rahasya-lila tu paurusa-vikaravad indriyaih pitr-putra-dasa-bhavais ca nopasya sviya-bhava-virodhat |

rahasyatvam ca tasyah kvacid alpamsena kvacit tu sarvamseneti jeyam ||

"These secret sports are not to be worshiped by those who experience male transformations in their senses, or by those who are in the moods of father, son and servant."

Bhakti Sandarbha (338)</blockquote>

 

Ladies also, indeed children too - any and all devotees who have not attained a highly qualified stage of devotion - they also should not attend "lessons in rasa-lila":

<blockquote>tad etad govinda vraja vijana kantanuvacanamdadhadbhir yogyasya shravasi paramapyam na sadasi

"This confidential rasa lila topic is to be heard by qualified people who carry Govinda in their hearts, and not in a public arena."

Gopal Campu (1.23.1)</blockquote>

 

A significant aspect of the siddha-pranali doctrine practiced nowadays is the proposition that a guru will give or assign or give a spiritual body to the disciple. That is, there are followers of this siddha pranali doctrine who believe that the spiritual form of a liberated person is given to a devotee by their guru. For example, in a book about manjari swarup written by Kunjabihari das Babaji he wrote:

<blockquote>

In the Lord's abode, there are an unlimited number of forms, all suitable for rendering service to him. Every one of those forms is non-different from him, being expanded from his effulgence; each one is eternal, full of consciousness and bliss. They are the crowning, central jewels of the spiritual world - its very life. These unlimited spiritual bodies are the perfected forms of the liberated souls which are awarded to an individual, according to his taste, when he reaches the state of absolute liberation. This state is called attainment of the spiritual body. All these spiritual bodies are eternal for they exist even before the liberated souls enter them and will continue to exist ever afterward. However, prior to the entry of the liberated soul they are in an inactive state.

 

As all of the unlimited souls are servants of the Lord, each one of them has a spiritual body in the Lord's abode just suitable for rendering service to the Lord. When an individual becomes qualified for direct service to the Lord by the grace of the Goddess of Devotion, then the Supreme Lord awards him that spiritual body.

</blockquote>

According to this school of thought, a devotee must be "awarded" or "given" a spiritual body (siddha-deha) by their guru in order that they might be able to practice the meditation that they are assisting Sri Radha in the divine pastimes of the spiritual world. Thus, if some disciple has not been given a spiritual body by their guru then how can the disciple engage in the practice of raganuga bhakti? This is the reasoning of people who believe in this doctrine.

Yet it must be pointed out that there is a serious flaw in this doctrine. According to the Vedanta Sutra (4.4.1) and Sri Sanatana Goswami (Brhadbagavatamrtam, 2.2), a soul never gets given a spiritual body at any time. The spiritual body is an eternal and inseparable aspect of the individual soul, the jiva-atma. The spiritual form of the self is eternally and inseparably connected to the individual self. My spiritual body is inseparable from me and, though dormant, my spiritual body has been with me for all of eternity. When a soul desires to render service to the Lord in his spiritual form then the dormant spiritual body becomes fully manifest. This spiritual fact is clearly stated in the Vedanta Sutra and in more recent texts such as Sri Sanatana Goswami's book Brhadbhagavatamrtam. It is utterly wrong to think that a soul will ever be given a spiritual body.

 

In the eighteenth century, the siddha-pranali doctrine became the mainstream orthodox tradition in Vrindaban and other centres of Gaudiya Vaishnavism, through the influence of Jayakrishna das Babaji and other influential gurus of that time. Jayakrishna das Babaji refused to give instructions about raganuga bhakti to devotees who did not know their "guru pranali". In the Gaudiya Vaishnava Abhidana we read the story of a young babaji who once approached Jayakrishna das Babaji, asking for instruction. The young babaji said: "I don't know what a guru-pranali is. I never asked my guru anything about it." Jaya Krishna das then told him, "The guru on the path of raganuga devotion always gives the guru-pranali to his disciple. The entire line of disciplic succession is found on it - the names of the guru, parama-guru, paratpara-guru and so on. With the disciplic succession, the guru also gives the siddha-pranali. In the siddha-pranali, the guru gives the identities of the disciple and all the line of guru's spiritual bodies - their colour, age, ornamentation, favoured type of service." Jayakrishna das Babaji refused to teach this young babaji about raganuga bhakti. He told him to return to his guru in Bengal and said he would only teach the young babaji after seeing a written list of all the previous gurus in the young babaji's lineage.

 

It may be supposed that Jayakrishna das Babaji was an advanced Vaishnava. But it is wrong to say that a disciple must know the "siddha-pranali" in order that the disciple might be able to engage in raganuga bhakti. This conception of raganuga sadhana, as presented by Jayakrishna das Babaji, is entirely different from the method of raganuga bhakti practiced in the time of Mahaprabhu Sri Chaitanyadeva and his direct associates. There is the example of Hridaya Chaitanya das, an associate of Mahaprabhu who was absorbed in the mood of sakhya-rasa (fraternal devotion), who became disturbed when he learned that his disciple Shyamananda Prabhu had begun practicing worship of Sri Sri Radha Govinda in the mood of amorous love (madhura rasa) under the direction of Sri Jiva Goswami. Following the free flow of his heart's feelings, Shyamananda accepted guidance about the practice of raganuga bhakti in madhura-rasa from Sri Jiva Goswami. By the grace of Sri Radha, Syamananda had a direct experience of his own spiritual body, in the spiritual form of a manjari, and Syamananda became admitted into the group of handmaids of Sri Radha led by Sri Rupa Manjari.

 

The proper way of advancement in the path of raganuga bhakti is described in Bhaktirasamrtasindhu 1.2.291, where Srila Rupa Goswami states:

<blockquote>tatra adhikari:

ragatmikaika-nistha ye vraja-vasi-janadayah

tesam bhavaptaye lubdho bhaved atradhikaravan

Those eligible for Raganuga Bhakti:

Those who have the feeling: "I want feelings of attraction for Krishna like

Ragatmikaikanistha, the feelings felt by the Vrajabasis, the eternal residents of Vraja"

- they are eligible to engage in Raganuga Bhakti.</blockquote>

 

In his commentary, Srila Vishvanatha Cakravarti Prabhu points out that in this verse Sri Rupa Gosvami has clearly defined raganuga bhakti. Here, Sri Rupa Goswami states that those individuals who in their intrinsic nature feel an intense longing and firm attachment for service following in the wake of the feelings and sentiments of the residents of Vrindaban, with no thought or attraction for the majesties of the Godhead, are alone eligible for following in the way of raganuga bhakti. The person eligible for raganuga bhakti may spontaneously follow Sri Radha and other Gopis in madhura rati, Nanda-Yasoda and others in vatsalya rati, Sridama-Sudama and others in sakhya rati, or Citraka-Patraka and others in dasya rati.

 

Raganuga bhakti awakens spontaneously in the heart of a devotee aspiring for service in the mood of the residents of Vrindaban. Srila Rupa Goswami's instruction is clear: the desire to engage in raganuga bhakti arises spontaneously from within. It is not something learned. A disciple will learn how to engage in the sadhana (practices) of raganuga bhakti from a Guru, but the raga (love) comes from within the heart of the disciple. A truly qualified Guru can detect the devotional tendency within a disciple and provide appropriate guidance so the disciple engages in the proper practice of raganuga bhakti.

 

In the Second Wave of the Eastern Division of Sri Sri Bhakti-Rasamrta-Sindhu, in the section dealing with Raganuga-Sadhana-Bhakti, there is a discussion about whether or not men are able to properly appreciate the mood of amorous devotion (madhura rasa). There, Srila Rupa Goswami has quoted the following verse from the Padma Purana:

<blockquote>

yatha pura maharsayah sarve dandakaranya-vasinah

drstva ramam harim tatra bhoktum-aicchan suvigraham

te sarve stritvam apannah samadbhutas ca gokule

harim samprapya kamena tato mukta bhavarnavat

In olden times when the great sages living in the Dandaka forests saw the beautiful Person of Lord Rama they desired to enjoy Him. They were all therefore born in Gokul as females and were freed forever from earthly associations of the ocean of the world by attaining the Supreme Lord Sri Krishna through supra-mundane sex-desires.

</blockquote>

The sages of Dandaka forest never learned anything about any siddha pranali lineage. Without receiving any instructions about such things they attained their next birth as gopis in Gokul. The spiritual identity they attained arose from within their own inner being. Their spiritual forms of gopis arose as a result of inner awakenment and not through any type of formal instruction of the type that was taught by Jaya Krishna das Babaji.

 

The Vedanta Sutra verse 4.4.1 furthermore states: "sampadyavirbhavah svena sabdat", meaning "Because of the word "svena", it is the manifestation of he who has gone". In the commentary by Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana he states as follows:

<blockquote>

The individual soul who, by means of devotional service accompanied with knowledge and renunciation, attains the effulgent Supreme, becomes free from the bondage of karma and attains a body endowed with eight virtues. This body is said to be the soul's original form. Why is that? The sutra explains, "svena-sabdat" (because of the word "svena"). The word "svena" here means, "in his own original form". For this reason it cannot be said that this passage means, "the soul arrives there and then accepts a form which is an external imposition". In that way it is proved that the form here is the original form of the soul. This is not contradicted by the use of the word "ninpadyate" in the verse being discussed from Chandogya Upanishad, for that word is also used to mean, "is manifested". Also, it is not that the manifestation of the soul's original form cannot be a goal of human endeavor because the original form already exists. This is so because even though the soul's original form exists it is not openly manifested. Therefore it is not useless to say that the soul may endeavor to make manifest the original form of the soul.

</blockquote>

In this section of Vedanta Sutra, the topic being discussed is: "When a soul attains liberation does the soul attain a body that is different from himself, as the bodies of demigods are different from their inner self, or does the soul manifest his original identity which is not different from himself?" In Baladeva's commentary, he makes it clear that in his sutras Vyasa himself is saying that when a soul becomes liberated they realize their inner identity and see they are a purely spiritual self with an eternal body of full of spiritual consciousness and bliss (sat-chitananda).

 

Baladeva quotes the Chandogya Upanishad, which states:<blockquote>

Thus does that serene being, arising from this body, appear in its own form, as soon as it has approached the highest light, the knowledge of Self. He, in that state, is the highest person (uttama purusha). He moves about there laughing or eating, playing, and rejoicing in his mind, be it with women, carriages, or relatives, never minding that body into which he was born.

- Chandogya Upanishad 8.12.3.</blockquote>

 

In his Govinda Bhasya commentary Sri Baladev Vidyabhusan then quotes the following verse from the Padma Purana:<blockquote>

anur nityo vyapti-silas cid-anandatmakas tatha

aham artho 'vyayah saksi bhinna-rupah sanatanah

The soul is atomic, eternal, is present by consciousness everywhere in the material body, is by nature full of spiritual bliss and knowledge, has a sense of individual identity, is unchanging, is a witness within the body, and is different from the Supreme.</blockquote>

 

Srila Baladev Vidyabhusan states that the spiritual form of bliss the liberated being attains is the original form of the soul that lay dormant within when the soul was in illusion. The Vedanta Sutra tells us that the spiritual body of the liberated being is the soul's original form. This form is a form of eternity, knowledge and bliss, as is mentioned in the verse above (cid-ananda-atma). It is not that the soul attains liberation and enters into a spiritual body or a form of existence which is an external imposition, an external state of being different from the self itsef. Not at all. The liberated soul realizes the spiritual nature of one's own inner being.

 

In his commentary to verse 2.2186 of Sri Brhadbhagavatamrtam, Srila Sanatan Gosvami quotes Shankaracarya's verse, "mukta api lilaya vigraham kritva bhagavantam bhajanta", which he translated as "Even the liberated assume a form and worship the Lord in his pastimes". Furthermore, Srila Sanatan Gosvami then quotes Srimad Bhagavatam 6.14.5 "muktanam api siddhanam narayana parayana", that is, "The liberated and perfected souls are engaged in Narayan's service." Srila Sanatan Gosvami asks himself: "If liberated souls didn't have forms then how could they engage in the Lord's service?" The answer: "Bhagavati layam praptasyapi nri dehasya mahamuneh punar narayana rupena pradurbhavah". Even those who have merged into the Lord have dormant human forms.

 

The statement of Srila Sanatan Goswami is clear and unambiguous. Even those souls who have never known Krishna and who are merged in the formless light of Brahman have dormant human forms.

 

Sri Sanatana Goswami also wrote in his commentary to Brhad Bhagatamrtam, verse 2.2.207:

<blockquote>

O great sage, among many millions who are liberated and perfect in knowledge of liberation, one may be a devotee of Lord Narayana, or Krishna. Such devotees, who are fully peaceful, are extremely rare. Impersonalists generally imagine themselves perfect and liberated, and among them a very few may actually attain impersonal liberation. But those rare souls, like all others, are eternal servants of Hari, the all attractive Lord. Out of millions of such rare liberated impersonalists, one very fortunate soul may realize this natural fact. Since intelligence is dormant in the "merged" soul, it can be reawakened. Even the liberated souls who have merged into the formless divine light of the spiritual sky retain their eternal spiritual bodies, complete with spiritual mind and senses. Nothing, not even liberation, can ever deprive a jiva of these assets. Thus when a liberated soul gains the favor of the Supreme Lord's personal energy, his spiritual body and senses are reawakened for hearing and chanting the glories of Lord Hari and acting in other ways for the Lord's pleasure.

</blockquote>

The spiritual body and senses are reawakened, so that the soul returns to his original state of pure siddha perfection. This soul in its pure state, still merged in Brahman, can develop a mood of submission to the Absolute and begin moving towards the gates of the spiritual world. Or, awakening with a false sense of ego, the soul may descend into the world of duality, birth and death. Again and again the jiva may attain Brahman and then fall again, developing a "exploiting" mentality that drags the soul back again into samsara. But the soul who enters the kingdom of Narayana attains real immortality.

 

Elsewhere in Brhad Bhagatamrtam, Srila Sanatan Goswami gives a beautiful description of souls entering the spiritual world of Vaikuntha. The form of one's self that someone contemplates during one's life of devotional practice, the stage of sadhana bhakti, is the form you will have in your state of perfection. And that state of being of a soul is capable of further transformation and development. Srila Sanatan Goswami describes souls entering the spiritual world:

<blockquote>

Some came with associates, some with paraphernalia, and some with both associates and paraphernalia. Some merged their associates and paraphernalia in their own selves and became like penniless solitary sages plunged in the nectar of meditation. Some moment by moment manifested different wonderful and charming forms, each opulent with different and wonderful ornaments, features and pastimes. Some were humans, some monkeys, some demigods, some demons, and some sages. Others carried the marks of being initiated in the orders of varna and ashrama. Some were like Indra, Chandra or the other demigods. Some had three eyes, some four heads, and some four arms, some eight arms, and some a thousand faces. I will tell you the reason for this great wonder: How can they who taste the nectar of devotion to Lord Krishna not be handsome? The glories of Vaikuntha's residents, who are all beyond the material world of five elements, the glories of Vaikunthaloka and of Vaikuntha's hero, Narayana, cannot be described with the examples drawn from the world of five elements.

- Brhad Bhagatamrtam 2.4.35-41</blockquote>

 

In Sri Sanatan Goswami's book Brihad Bhagavatamritam he tells the story of a young boy named Gopakumar (Sarupa) who received initiation into the Krishna mantra from his Guru but no further instructions.

<blockquote>

Gopakumar said: One day a great devotee embraced me and said, "Child, if you wish the perfection desired by all, then bathe in Kesi-tirtha and take from me the mercy of the Lord of the universes."

When I had bathed, he taught me the mantra. Then, to teach the method of worship, he began to describe the Lord, the object of meditation. Overcome with love, and crying as a woman separated from her love, he suddenly fainted in ecstasy. When he became conscious again I was too frightened to ask him anything. His mind was fixed on something else. He suddenly rose and left. I never met him again. What had I obtained? What result would it bring? How should the mantra be chanted? I did not know anything. Out of respect for his words this mantra alone was on my mouth. Unnoticed by anyone, I eagerly chanted it at every moment. By the power of that great person my heart became purified as I chanted. I developed faith. Thinking of his words I decided that this mantra would lead me to the Lord of the universes. I became happy and I was dedicated to chanting.

</blockquote>

The boy then became a pilgrim searching for the Lord, learning many lessons and making progress, step by step. In this story by Sanatan Goswami, written in the same genre as Pilgrims Progress, the seeker journeys through many realms of existence until he finally attains his goal and meets with Krishna in Vrindaban. In the course of his journey Gopakumar sometimes meets his Guru and receives instructions, but at no time does he receive any instruction regarding "siddha-pranali". Sanatan Goswami has shown that for a sincere seeker everything is attained in the fullness of time if he constantly chants the holy name of Krishna. The boy Gopakumar finally gains an eternal role in Vrindaban in the form of a cowherd boy, a friend of Krishna (sakhya-rasa); but his Guru was absorbed in amorous love (madhura-rasa). In the mood of separation, his Guru would be seen "crying as a woman separated from her love". Glorifying this book, Srila Rupa Goswami stated in Bhaktirasamrtasindhu (1.4.20): srimat prabhupadambhojaih sarva bhagavatamrte vyaktikrtasti gudhapi bhakti-siddhanta-madhuri - The most revered master Prabhupada Sanatan Gosvami has explicitly described the ambrosial sweetness of the philosophy of bhakti in his Brhat-Bhagavatamrta even though this bhakti philosophy (bhakti-siddhanta) is most abstruse and a mystery.

 

It is interesting to consider that because Jayakrishna das Babaji refused to give instructions about raganuga to the young Babaji who didn't know his guru-pranali, it can be supposed that if Gopakumar had come to get instruction from Jayakrishna das Babaji then he also would have been told that he was ineligible to engage in raganuga bhakti.

 

Real Gaudiya Vaishnavism is something different from what Jayakrishna das Babaji, Kunjabihari das Babaji etc. taught it to be. If we carefully study the writings of the Gaudiya Sampradaya Acharyas such as Sri Sanatan Goswami, Sri Rupa Goswami and Sri Baladeva Vidyabhusana, it is clear that a soul does not get given a spiritual body, or need to get given instructions about one's spiritual body (swarup). What is truly essential is that a soul should begin to chant the Name of Hari without offences. When this goal is achieved then the natural form of the self and Krishna prema (divine love for Krishna) will naturally be revealed in one's consciousness, arising as they do from within our own self. In his instructions to Sri Sanatan Goswami, the Lord, Sri Chaitanyadeva himself, said:

<blockquote>

nitya-siddha krsna prema sadhya kabhu naya

sravanadi suddha citte karaye udaya

(Chaitanya Charitamrta, Madhya 22.107)

Meaning: "Pure love for Krishna is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens."

</blockquote>

There is no need for discussion or further elaboration upon this point. The self evident meaning of the words of Sri Chaitanyadeva is the ultimate siddhanta of the real Gaudiya Vaishnavas.

 

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur was told about his siddha-deha (siddha identity) and the siddha pranali of the lineage of Bipin Bihari Goswami when he received initiation from Bipin Bihari Goswami. We have heard from Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj that Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur's statements in his writings, in regard to siddha-deha and the intimate pastimes of Radha Govinda, are his direct insights about what he was seeing in his meditation. His position is so great. So high. He did feel some regard for Bipin Bihari Goswami initially, but the relationship between them was damaged irreparably when Bipin Bihari Goswami decided to join with people who opposed the development of the Mayapur Yogapith. Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur had the inspiration that the Mayapur Yogapitha really is the birthplace of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, as did his siksa-guru Srila Jagannatha das Babaji Maharaj; so when Bipin Bihari Goswami gave opposition to this inspirational insight of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur and his siksa-guru, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur withdrew from the association of Bipin Bihari Goswami.

 

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur is a nitya-siddha devotee. An eternal associate of Radha-Krishna who descended to earth to preach about pure devotion. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami had little regard for Bipin Bihari Goswami; in fact, Srila Saraswati Thakur gave real spiritual initiation (diksa) to one gentleman who had been an initiated a disciple of Bipin Bihari Goswami. Srila Saraswati Thakur taught his disciples that they should worship the surrendered Vaishnava who has dedicated his mind, body and words to the service of the Lord, and if a devotee of lower realization such as Bipin Bihari Goswami opposes a devotee of higher type like Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur then we should follow the higher devotee. Indeed, Arjuna was perplexed when he saw that he would have to fight against his family guru on the warfield of Kurukshetra, but Krishna told him to fight his guru, nevertheless.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj:<blockquote>

We have to follow the spirit; otherwise after Jahnava devi, the wife of Lord Nityananda, up to Vipina Goswami, from whom Bhaktivinoda Thakura took initiation, there are so many unknown lady gurus. Through them, the mantra came to Vipina Goswami, and from him Bhaktivinoda Thakura received the mantra. We accept Bhaktivinoda Thakura, but should we count all those ladies in our disciplic succession? What was their realization?</blockquote>

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur has also given us a warning in his writings that a disciple should have proper realization before engaging in any meditation upon the siddha-deha:<blockquote>

adhikara na labhiya siddhadeha bhave

viparyaya buddhi janme saktira abhave

If one thinks of their siddha-deha without actually achieving transcendental realization their intelligence gets bewildered.

-(from Bhajana-rahasya by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur)</blockquote>

In the commentary to Bhajana-rahasya written by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami he stated as follows: <blockquote>

chari sloke kramasah bhajana pakkva kara,

pancam slokete nija siddha deha vara,

ei sloke siddhadehe radhapadasraya,

arambha kariya krame unnati udaya,

chaya sloka bhajite anartha dure gela,

tabe jana siddhadehe adhikara haila,

adhikara na labhiya siddhadeha bhave,

viparjya buddhi janme saktira abhave

-(Sri Bhajan Rahasya Rahasyer Pragbandha)

</blockquote>

By careful practice of the precepts of Sri Chaitanya presented in the first four verses of Siksastaka, gradually you acquire maturity in bhajan. After that, be eligible for achieving your realized eternal spiritual form by practising the fifth verse. Being well-established in the fifth verse, you will get the service of the Lotus Feet of Radharani by attaining the realized form. Advancement of bhajan will begin from this and will be developed. After being competent in realizing the transcendental sweet ecstatic feelings through practice of precepts given in the sixth verse, your attachment for ulterior reverse desires will be removed totally. Then actually you will be entitled to get eternal realized spiritual form. When the eight principal modes of transcendental ecstatic feelings will be revealed to you, the criterion of your attainment of the safety region is achieved. Without the manifestation of these ecstatic feelings, if any aspirant poses to get that realized state, it will be cause of disaster to him due to lack of intrinsic spiritual realization from within.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami:<blockquote>

bhavera ankura ho le vidhi ara thake na

raganuga sraddha matre jata rati haya na

When bhava, the ecstatic mood of divine love actually awakens then the need for following scriptural rules (vidhi) does not remain. However, mere faith in spontaneous devotional service (raganuga) does not produce the actual awakening of transcendental loving attachment (rati).

bhavankura samagame vaidhi bhakti thake na

rucike ratira saha kabhu eka jane na

Only when the seed of intense divine emotion sprouts forth pure bhava, only then is there no need to adhere to scriptural rules and regulations (vaidhi bhakti). One should never consider ruci (the taste for devotional service) to be the same as rati (transcendental loving attachment in devotional service).

raganuga boile i prapta rasa jane na

vidhi sodhya jane jabhu raganuga bole na

Divine rasa can never be factually attained merely by talking about spontaneous devotion (by claiming "I am a raganuga-bhakta"). A beginning student who should still be further purified by following the scriptural injunctions is never said to be on the level of performing spontaneous loving service unto the Lord.

sadhanera purve keha bhavankura paya na

jade sraddha na chadile rati kabhu haya na

No one can ever experience the sprouting of pure ecstatic emotions (bhava) without first following the regulated injunctions of the scriptures. One who does not give up faith in materialistic things can never attain the stage of spiritual attachment in devotional service.

-(from Prakrta-rasa-sata-dusani)</blockquote>

 

It is also to be remembered that Sri Rupa Goswami wrote in Bhaktirasamrtasindhu that there are people who enthusiastically engage in the practices of raganuga bhakti while having a heart that is filled with desires for selfish enjoyment or liberation. These people may experience bliss and detachment from worldly life through the practice of bhakti but they do not attain real attachment to Krishna (rati). This matter is dealt with in some detail by Sri Rupa Goswami in Bhaktirasamrtasindhu (1.3.42-55; 2.3.12-14; 2.3.85-91) and in the commentaries of Sri Jiva Goswami and Srila Visvanatha Chakravarti. It is better to wait until we are pure before trying to feel the bliss of madhura-rasa in our meditation - fools rush in, where angels fear to tread.

 

Sri Rupa Goswami:<blockquote>

vimuktakilatar yair ya muktir api vimrgyate

ya krsnenatigopy asu bhajadbhyo 'pi na diyate

sa bhukti-mukti-kamatva cchuddham bhaktim akurvatam

hrdaye sambhavat yesam katham bhagavati ratih

Rati, the feeling of attraction to Krishna that is sought after by souls who have sacrificed all selfish desires, the feeling of attraction which Sri Krishna withholds in great secrecy, is not easily conferred by him even to devotees who are engaged in spiritual practices. How can there be an appearance of rati in the hearts of those who do not practice unalloyed and pure bhakti because of manifold desires for elevation and salvation, or in the hearts of those who are anxious for self-destruction by way of desiring for merging in the Absolute Brahman? (Bhaktirasamrtasindhu 1.3.42-3)</blockquote>

In his commentary Sri Jiva Goswami points out that here it is explicitly shown how rati cannot appear in the hearts of the aspirants for moksa, and that the signs of tears, horripilation, paleness, etc. manifest in them are no real signs of rati. The reason is that they are desirous of the fruits of devotion and salvation, and therefore it is not possible that rati in the Lord can awaken in their hearts. The defect in them is that they do not practice unalloyed bhakti, which is completely free from the tinge of fruitive karma and dry knowledge.

 

Meditation upon the siddha-deha, the perfect form of the self, is a devotional practice that only advanced devotees who are free of mundane desires should engage in. In the practice of devotional service it is best if we avoid the mistake that some people make when they engage in meditation upon confidential pastimes of Radha Govinda while still being contaminated with false ego and mundane lust.

 

Sri Jiva Goswami:<blockquote>

kintu rahasya-lila tu paurusa-vikaravad indriyaih pitr-putra-dasa-bhavais ca nopasya sviya-bhava-virodhat |

rahasyatvam ca tasyah kvacid alpamsena kvacit tu sarvamseneti jeyam ||

"These secret sports are not to be worshiped by those who experience male transformations in their senses, or by those who are in the moods of father, son and servant."

Bhakti Sandarbha (338)</blockquote>

 

And:<blockquote>

tad etad govinda vraja vijana kantanuvacanamdadhadbhir yogyasya shravasi paramapyam na sadasi

"This confidential rasa lila topic is to be heard by qualified people who carry Govinda in their hearts, and not in a public arena."

Gopal Campu (1.23.1)</blockquote>

 

http://www.mandala.com.au/books/sixgoswamis.pdf

 

 

Zoroaster is the person who dreamed up the idea that two gods are fighting in the world, and that men are pawns in this cosmic battle. See:

 

http://www.zoroaster.com/

 

The link between jews and zoarastrians is explained here

http://www.vohuman.org/Article/Zoroastrianism%20and%20Judaism.htm

Numbers, Chapter 21

 

5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.

 

6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

 

7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.

 

8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

 

9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

 

 

.........

 

 

2 Kings, 18

 

 

1 Now it came to pass in the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, that Hezekiah the son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign.

 

2 Twenty and five years old was he when he began to reign; and he reigned twenty and nine years in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Abi, the daughter of Zachariah.

 

3 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did.

 

4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

 

 

 

 

<hr>

 

 

But.... Moses had installed this idol of the serpent, so was it wrong to destroy it?

 

 

 

Ezekiel's vision:

 

"As I looked, behold, a storm wind came out of the north, and a great cloud, with brightness around about it, and fire flashing forth continually, and in the midst of the fire, as it were gleaming bronze. And from the midst of it came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance: they had the form of men, but each had four faces, and each had four wings. Their legs were straight, and the soles of their feet were like the sole of a calves foot; and they sparkled like burnished bronze. Under their wings on their four sides they had human hands. And the four had their faces and their wings thus: their wings touched one another; they went everyone straight forward without turning as they went. As for the likeness of their faces, each had the face of a man in front; the four had the face of a lion on the right side; the four had the face of an ox on the left side, and the four had the face of an eagle at the back. Such were their faces. And their wings were spread out above; each creature had two wings, each of which touched the wings of another, while two covered their bodies. And each went straight forward, wherever the spirit would go they went, without turning as they went.

 

"In the midst of the living creatures there was something that looked like burning coals of fire, like torches moving to and fro among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning. And the living creatures darted to and fro like a flash of lightning. Now as I looked at the living creatures, I saw a wheel upon the earth beside the living creatures, one for each of the four of them. As for the appearance of the wheels and their construction: their appearance was like the gleaming of a chrysolite; and the four had the same likeness, their construction being as it were a wheel within a wheel. When these went they went in any of their four directions without turning as they went. The four wheels had rims and they had spokes; and their rims were full of eyes round about. And when the living creatures went, the wheels went beside them; and when the living creatures rose from the earth, the wheels rose. Wherever the spirit would go, they went, and the wheels rose along with them; for the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels. When those went, these went, and when those stood, these stood; and when those rose from the earth, the wheels rose along with them, for the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels.

 

"Over the heads of the living creatures there was the likeness of a firmament shining like crystal, spread out over the heads. And under the firmament their wings were stretched out straight, one toward another; and each creature had two wings covering its body. And when they went, I heard the sound of their wings like the sound of many waters, like the thunder of the Almighty, a sound of tumult like the sound of a host; when they stood still they let down their wings. And there came a voice from the firmament over their heads; when they stood still, they let down their wings. And above the firmament over their heads there was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like sapphire, and seated about the likeness of a throne was as it were the likeness of a human form. And upward from what had the appearance of his loins I saw as it were gleaming bronze, like the appearance of fire round about; and downward from what had the appearance of his loins I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and there was brightness around about him. Like the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud on the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. Such was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord." (Ezekiel 1:4-28, see also Chapter 10)

 

 

 

According to the Ethiopian book of Enoch, which is part of the Ethiopian Bible, demons are reborn again and again through reincarnation, and they come to tempt and trouble humans.

 

This book is not in the Western Bible, but it has been found among the dead sea scrolls. It is an authentic scripture from prior the time of Jesus.

 

So, perhaps Jesus was tempted by a "re-manifest" form of Satan, who used to be an angel but fell down.

 

According to Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, the idea of "two gods", one good god and a bad god caled satan, is a myth. A myth created by Zoaraster. But that is not to say that demons don't exist. The real issue is that they believe in an "anti-god" who has supernatural powers to cause disturbance in the world. Whereas Hiranyakasipu was simply an individual person, not a satanic force. He was not "the dark side of the force".

 

There is only one force, according to the Vedas. Brahman (the all pervading power of visnu). The idea that there are two forces, or a dark side of the force, is a myth.

 

 

In the Ganga. Or in the ocean, as is done in Jagannatha Puri.

One of the biggest strongest memories I carry with me is the time I spent sitting with Srila Prabhupada at Sydney airport in 72, while he and Satswarup were waiting for a plane to America.

 

One thing he told me then has always stuck in my mind. He said to me, "Avoid meat eaters. They are barbarians."

 

The politicians all support meat eating, even the Greens, who I usually vote for (voting is compulsory in Australia, and I feel the Greens are less bad than the rest). But in the end, they are all cow eaters. I gave up believing in politicians and their ideologies long ago.

 

Some of the things said here may seem startling to some people.

 

It is to be remembered, however, that Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati published this book not once but twice. When the first edition was sold out, it was reprinted and distributed among the devotees. There is no doubt that Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati agreed with what is written here; there is no evidence anywhere of Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati saying he disagreed with the point of view that is presented in Sri Krishna Samhita. And indeed my own Guru Maharaj, Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Maharaj, told me about some of the things in Sri Krishna Samhita. So I read it and studied it, after that.

In Sri Krishna Samhita, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur says:

 

<blockquote>

The very ancient history of India is covered by the dense darkness of forgetfulness, because there is no proper sequence in its ancient history. I will establish with a bit of conjecture whatever I can on the information I have acquired through the four Vedas, the Ramayana, the Mahabharata, and the Puranas. In the beginning, the Aryans lived in a small country named Brahmavarta, which was situated between the two rivers -- Sarasvati and Drsadvati. The present name of Drsadvati is Kagara1. The following verse from the Mahabharata (Vana-parva 83.4) creates some doubts in this regard. Swanlike people should destroy this doubt through samadhi.

 

daksinena sarasvatya drsadvaty uttarena ca

ye vasanti kuruksetre te vasanti tripistape

"One who lives in Kuruksetra, which is south of the Sarasvati River and north of the Drsadvati River, lives in heaven."

 

By discussing the meaning of the name "Brahmavarta" it is assumed that the Aryans came from another country to reside therein. We cannot ascertain exactly where they came from, but it is believed that they came from some northwest country (Russia). In the description of Devi's tirtha near Kashmir in the Mahabharata (Vana-parva 82.102) it is stated:

prasutir yatra vipranam sruyate bharatarsabha

"It is said that brahmanas first came into existence at that place."

 

When they came, they were relatively civilized according to the time. There is no doubt about this. Being proud of their own civilization, they used to disregard the local natives. It is said that when the Aryans disregarded the local natives, the natives' king, Rudradeva, showed the Aryans his prowess by accepting in marriage the hand of Sati, the daughter of Prajapati Daksa, thus making an alliance with Daksa. Nevertheless the Aryans were so proud that after the marriage of Sati, they did not respect her or her husband. That is why Sati hated herself and gave up her body in Daksa's sacrificial arena and thereafter Siva with his followers began to heavily torture the Aryans. The brahmanas were later forced to make an alliance with Siva by allowing him a share in the sacrifice. Still, in order to maintain their superiority, the Aryans placed Siva's seat in the northeastern corner of the sacrificial arena. There is no doubt that Daksa's fire sacrifice took place soon after the Aryans established Brahmavarta, because the ten personalities headed by Daksa are described as the original Prajapatis. The wife of Prajapati Daksa was named Prasuti. She was the daughter of Svayambhuva Manu, the son of Brahma. Svayambhuva Manu and the Prajapatis were the original inhabitants of Brahmavarta. Another son of Brahma was Marici, whose son was Kasyapa. The son of Kasyapa was Vivasvan, whose son was Vaivasvata Manu. The son of Vaivasvata Manu was Iksvaku. From this we must conclude that the Surya dynasty began with the sixth generation from Brahma. At the time of Maharaja Iksvaku, the Aryans were living in a place called Brahmarsi. According to modern calculation the above-mentioned six generations enjoyed their kingdom for two hundred years. Because Brahmavarta was too small it was expanded within this two hundred years and called Brahmarsi. The Aryans were very eager to expand their dynasty, and they had so many children that Brahmavarta became too congested to suit their needs. Modern scholars say that some civilized personalities like Candra were inducted into the Aryan race at that time. According to their calculation, in those two hundred years there were eight Manus, beginning from Svayambhuva Manu up to Vaivasvata Manu. Just after Svayambhuva Manu, the son of Agni named Svarocisa Manu appeared. The grandson of Svayambhuva Manu was Uttama Manu. He had one brother named Tamasa Manu and another brother named Raivata Manu. In the seventh generation from Svayambhuva Manu was Caksusa Manu. Vaivasvata Manu was the fifth generation from Brahma. Savarni Manu was the stepbrother of Vaivasvata. Therefore all the Manus wound up their activities before the time of Iksvaku; there is no doubt about this.

 

Daksa-savarni, Brahma-savarni, Dharma-savarni, Rudra-savarni, Deva-savarni, and Indra-savarni existed only in the imagination of modern people. If they were historical, then it is to be understood that they lived in different parts of India within those two hundred years. It is also stated that the churning of the ocean took place during the time of Caksusa Manu. Vamana appeared during the time of Vaivasvata Manu. After Bali Maharaja's sacrifice, all the demons were driven away by trickery. The kings of the Manu dynasty had their capitals outside Brahmavarta, but in the beginning they were not expert in managing their kingdom, education, or family life. Dhanvantari appeared during the churning of the ocean. The Asvini-kumaras also appeared at that time. The poison which emanated during the churning of the ocean was eliminated by Siva of the Rudra dynasty. By discussing all these topics we can understand that in those days the culture of medicine in progress. It is also seen that at this time the demon Rahu was cut in two, and thus Rahu and Ketu were formed. We can understand from this that the science of astrology was being discussed at that time. It is not believed, however, that there was a written language during this time. And since there is no written information about that period, it appears that it lasted for a vast duration of time. In fact, much later, when calculation of time began, it was said that each Manu enjoyed a rule of seventy maha-yugas.

 

Among the kings, whoever laid down laws was called a Manu and was respected by all. There were two reasons why so many Manus appeared in such a short span of time. The first reason is that there was no written language or books, so knowledge was transmitted by sruti, or hearing. The other necessary srutis that were added to the original sruti were then ascribed to the reigns of the many different Manus. The second reason is that due to an increase of population, the dwelling areas of the Aryans spread and divided into various areas with different kings ruling. Thus there were many lawmakers, or Manus. This is the way modern scholars have described the different durations of Manus. Swanlike people respect whatever substance may be derived from these topics, but transcendental explantions are often helpful for asslike people.

 

paroksa-vado vedo `yam balanam anusasanam

"The Vedic injunctions often describe a situation as something else in order to disguise its real nature in order to guide childish and foolish people who are attached to fruitive activities."

(Bhag. 11.3.44).

 

These explanations of transcendental characteristics and divisions of time were accepted in order to generate firm faith in such peoples' minds. The great sages accept the existence of different Manus in order to benefit neophytes and check the fantasies created at various times and places. We will never say that history and the process of calculating time according to the scriptures is false or imaginary.

 

Modern scholars have stated that the names of the kings from Iksvaku's time are available. The names of the kings in the Surya dynasty can be accepted with a great deal of certainty. From Iksvaku to Ramacandra there were 63 generations. If we consider that each king ruled the kingdom for 25 years, then the time from Iksvaku to Ramacandra comes to 1,575 years. In the ninety-fourth generation of that dynasty, King Brhadbala was killed by Abhimanyu in the Battle of Kuruksetra. The Battle of Kuruksetra took place 2,350 years after the rule of Iksvaku. The duration of all Manvantaras together comes to 200 years. Therefore we will have to accept that the establishment of Brahmavarta took place 2,550 years prior to the Battle of Kuruksetra.

 

....

 

Modern scholars think that Daksa's fire sacrifice took place immediately after the Aryans established Brahmavarta. This strange incident happened due to the Aryan's pride of their caste and their unwillingness to maintain a relationship with the local natives. At that time Bhutanatha Rudra was the leader of the local natives. Most of the hill areas were under his jurisdiction. Bhutan, or Bhuta-sthana, Koca-vihara, or Kucni-vihara, and Trivarta, where Kailasa Mountain is seen, were all under Rudra's rule. Even though he was a local native, he was expert in the science of medicine, fighting, and singing. Seeing his ability, the eleven Rudra kings, who were his representatives, even claimed that he was the supreme controller. Such a personality as the King of the Rudras could not tolerate the brahmana's false ego, so he forcefully and tactfully married the daughter of Prajapati Daksa, who lived at Kankhala, near Haridvara. After Satidevi left her body, a fierce battle took place between him and the brahmanas. After the battle, he was given a share of the sacrifice and a seat in the northeast corner of the sacrificial arena. After that the Aryans made friendship with the powerful local mountain people. Since then, we do not find any further quarrel between the local mountain people and the brahmarsis, because the mountain people respected the brahmanas and the King of the Rudras was counted among the lords of the Aryans20 After narrating the conclusions and descriptions of the modern scholars regarding Sri Rudradeva, I wish to humbly point out to the Saivite readers that we accept Sri Mahadeva as jagad-guru and an incarnation of the Lord. We always aspire for his mercy. By his unreserved mercy, we attain devotion to Lord Krsna.

 

Although the Aryans no longer quarreled with the mountain people, many persons from their own dynasty put forward obstacles on the path of prosperity. The descendants of Kasyapa, who accepted the features of snakes and birds, started residing here and there under the subordination of the demigods. At that time the descendants of Kasyapa who accepted the features of birds developed intense animosity towards the snakes. But later the snakes became more powerful, and they ruled many kingdoms. Gradually the birds became almost extinct. From the womb of Diti, the wife of Kasyapa, a few formidable men were born. They were condemned as demons. They became enemies of all good people by willfully acting against the brahmarsis. Eventually they quarreled with King Indra and established a separate kingdom. This quarrel became known as the battle between the demigods and the demons. Almost all the demons lived in the country known as Panca-nada [the place of five rivers] (Punjab) <font color="blue"> (***note by muralidhar*** after their defeat by the gods the asuras ran away to the lands to the west, that is, they went to Iran, where people are known to have worshipped the god "Ahura" or "asura". </font color>) Sakala, Asarara, Narasimha, and Multan, or Kasyapapura, were under their jurisdiction. It is possible that Prajapati Kasyapa, in whose family the demigods and demons were born, lived in the countries of Panca-nada and Brahmavarta. The Prajapatis lived around Brahmavarta. At that time Brahmavarta was the center of the demigods' kingdom. Both the Sarasvati and Drsadvati Rivers flowed in the demigods' kingdom. Brahmavarta is the place that was founded by the demigods between these two rivers.

 

sarasvati drsadvatyor deva-nadyor yad antaram

tam deva-nirmitam desam brahmavartam pracaksate

"The tract of land founded by the demigods between the Sarasvati and Drsadvati Rivers is called Brahmavarta." (Manu-samhita 2.17)21. From the word deva in this verse [see footnote below], it is understood that the demigods were residing there. The demigods were also sons of Prajapati Kasyapa, therefore they are also accepted as Aryans. It is felt that during the founding of Brahmavarta, just after the reign of Svayambhuva Manu, Indra, the son of Kasyapa and an expert administrator, was awarded the title of King of the demigods. Those great souls who were engaged in the administrative work received different posts like Vayu, Varuna, Agni, Yama, and Pusa.

 

 

</blockquote>

Yes Svah loka is a higher realm of "misconception" or materialism. They have an advanced understanding of the technology you use to attain "material enjoyment", such as performing yajnas, and chanting mantras that have great force. As in, "may the force be with you".

"Dreams are real while they last, what more than this can we say of life"

- Carl Jung

According to the Upanishads etc., the Supreme Brahman is pure consciousness, bliss and ecstacy (sat chit ananda). Before the visible earth world appears, the "illusion" of Maya arises as "mind", which is something that is different from pure spiritual consciousness (sat chit ananda). In the teachings of Srila Sridhar Maharaj, he uses the term "chit-abhasa", or "reflection of pure concsiousness", to describe this stage of illusion that arises prior to the creation of the physical life-worlds where souls incarnate in temporary material bodies. Mundane desire is the cause of the creation of material worlds...

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj:<blockquote>

In Bhagavad-gita (7.27) it is stated:

iccha-dvesa samutthena dvandva-mohena bharata

sarva-bhutani sammoham sarge yanti parantapa

"Two principles in a crude form awaken in the jiva: hatred and desire. Then,

gradually the soul comes down to mingle with the mundane world." At first,

sympathy and apathy develop in a crude form, just as when a sprout springs up

with two leaves. And gradually these two things help us to dive deep into this

mundane world

- Search for Sri Krishna, chapter 3.

</blockquote>

 

According to the Bhagavatam and other shastras, demons such as Hiranyaksa existed before the physical earth was inhabited. These demons exist within "the plane of misconception" or "chit-abhasa". This plane of misconception is the "ghost" world, which we ourselves also are able to enter when we dream, or when our bodies are dead and we become ghosts who are looking for a new body so we can experience physical experiences. As we all experience, in dreams we experience our fantasies in "dream stories" where we strive to fulfil our unbridled desires. It is in this "dream-life" that the demons exist. And above their plane of existence there is a subtler stage of life: Svah-loka, the abode of the gods.

 

But Ravan defeated Indra, and so did Hiranyakasipu. Sometimes darkness overshadows even the worlds of the gods. The demons are constantly trying to overthrow the gods so the gods are frightened. The gods are constantly worried and they fight the demons and use magic (and yajna) and consuming the nectar "amrita" or soma to keep themselves in a superior stage of existence. The gods live in a heavenly realm and use "superior extraterrestrial technology" to maintain their superior status. But still this is all within the realm of "chit-abhasa".

 

All these things take place "within the mind". They are myths, but myths are recurring dreams that arise within the minds of materialistic beings when the material worlds arise, time after time.

After you die, you can go to the higher planes of existence and go through to the Vaikuntha and Goloka (Krishna's world) if you die with the name of Hare Krishna on your lips or in your ears.

 

If you are a non-devotee and you are pious, you will go upwards toward heaven. (Svah-loka)

 

If you have caused great harm to other beings, you will go into the plane or dimension of fear and bad dreams, and enter the underworld (Bhuvah-lokah). You may be reborn almost immediately in a body befitting your consciousness, and so if you were a movie star and a "catty" sort of girl, well, you will become a self-serving cat. And so forth.

 

Most people will go to the kingdom of the king of the dead, (Yama-loka), to await judgement for the things you have done. If you go there, you wait for a year in suspension while before your case is heard on your day of judgement. In which case, if some of your relatives perform rites of worship during this period, using money etc that you have bequeathed etc. then you will be ok. Otherwise, you go down into the netherworld and take birth with a lower form of body.

 

People "move on" when they are reborn and the forget the details of their previous lifetimes, but they remember what they want to remember, as in the case of people who like to be angry. The feeling of anger is close to their heart, and so when they roar with anger other creatures around them hear the roar. They roar and groan in the jungle for lifetime after lifetime, until they evolve to a higher stage of consciousness.

After reading the post above, I would just like to say that while I feel the Bhagavat in its present form was written down about a thousand years ago, I do fully believe in the message it presents:

<blockquote>

Completely rejecting all religious activities which are materially motivated, this Bhagavata Purana propounds the highest truth, which is understandable by those devotees who are fully pure in heart. The highest truth is reality distinguished from illusion for the welfare of all. Such truth uproots the threefold miseries. This beautiful Bhagavatam, compiled by the great sage Vyasadeva [in his maturity], is sufficient in itself for God realization. What is the need of any other scripture? As soon as one attentively and submissively hears the message of Bhagavatam, by this culture of knowledge the Supreme Lord is established within his heart.

-Srimad Bhagavatam 1.1.2

</blockquote>

Raghu said:

<blockquote>

How can you take something to be a religious scripture if it has falsified details of its own origin? Logically, if a scripture "lies," then you could not tell where it is telling the truth and where it is lying.

</blockquote>

I'm not sure what the basis is, of this statement about the Bhagavat and some supposed "falsified details of its own origin". My reading is, the Bhagavatam itself speaks of the Naimisha forest sages and Vyasa in the "third person", or in other words it speaks of them, and repeats the sages statements.

 

Mahaprabhu accepted the Bhagavatam as the essence of all truth, for it gives us a proper understanding of how to rise up from mundane consciousness to the stage of Krishna Prema.

 

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur says, furthermore:

<blockquote>

The souls of the great thinkers of the by-gone ages, who now live spiritually, often

approach our inquiring spirit and assist it in its development. Thus Vy.sa was

assisted by N.rada and Brahm.. Our ½astras, or in other words, books of thought

do not contain all that we could get from the infinite Father. No book is without

its errors. GodÕs revelation is absolute truth, but it is scarcely received and

preserved in its natural purity. We have been advised in the 14th Chapter of

11th skandha of the Bhagavata to believe that truth when revealed is absolute, but

it gets the tincture of the nature of the receiver in course of time and is

converted into error by continual exchange of hands from age to age. New

revelations, therefore, are continually necessary in order to keep truth in its

original purity. We are thus warned to be careful in our studies of old authors,

however wise they are reputed to be. Here we have full liberty to reject the

wrong idea, which is not sanctioned by the peace of conscience. Vy.sa was not

satisfied with what he collected in the Vedas, arranged in the Pur.ºas and

composed in the Mah.bharata. The peace of his conscience did not sanction his

labors. It told him from inside Ò No, Vyasa! you canÕt rest contented with the

erroneous picture of truth which was necessarily presented to you by the sages

of by-gone days! You must yourself knock at the door of the inexhaustible store

of truth from which the former ages drew their wealth. Go, go up to the

Fountain-head of truth where no pilgrim meets with disappointment of any

kind. Vy.sa did it and obtained what he wanted. We have been all advised to

do so. Liberty then is the principle, which we must consider as the most

valuable gift of God. We must not allow ourselves to be led by those who lived

and thought before us. We must think for ourselves and try to get further truths

which are still undiscovered. In the 23rd text 21st Chapter 11th skandha of the

Bhagavata we have been advised to take the spirit of the shastras and not the words.

The Bhagavata is therefore a religion of liberty, unmixed truth and absolute love.

</blockquote>

 

 

 

I don't have much time to spend on this at the moment. But anyway:

 

If you open Srimad Bhagavatam at the start, you see the first three verses then this verse:

<blockquote>SB 1.1.4: Once, in a holy place in the forest of Naimisha-ranya, great sages headed by the sage Saunaka assembled to perform a great thousand-year sacrifice for the satisfaction of the Lord and His devotees.

</blockquote>

Then after the sages ask their questions, Suta Goswami begins speaking, and tells about Vyasa, Sukadev and Narada, etc.

 

The question arises, who is speaking to us in verse SB 1.1.4. It is not Vyasa. Vyasa enters the story later:

 

<blockquote>SB 1.4.14: Su-ta Gosva-mi- said: When the second millennium overlapped the third, the great sage [Vya-sadeva] was born to Para-s'ara in the womb of Satyavati-, the daughter of Vasu.

 

SB 1.4.15: Once upon a time he [Vya-sadeva], as the sun rose, took his morning ablution in the waters of the Sarasvati- and sat alone to concentrate.

 

SB 1.4.16: The great sage Vya-sadeva saw anomalies in the duties of the millennium. This happens on the earth in different ages, due to unseen forces in the course of time.

 

SB 1.4.17-18: The great sage, who was fully equipped in knowledge, could see, through his transcendental vision, the deterioration of everything material, due to the influence of the age. He could also see that the faithless people in general would be reduced in duration of life and would be impatient due to lack of goodness. Thus he contemplated for the welfare of men in all statuses and orders of life</blockquote>

 

So, there is another voice speaking to us. Speaking the Bhagavatam to us. And according to Srila Sridhar Maharaj that person lived in the eighth century A.D.

Kulapavana wrote:

<blockquote>

<blockquote>quote of muralidhar:

"In Sri Krishna Samhita, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur says that the people of South India were regarded as "monkeys" by others, and thus that Hanuman and Sugriva etc were described as monkeys, with tails, when they were in fact human beings."</blockquote>

well... some of the early writings of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura are highly controversial in our Gaudiya circles, and later on he himself dramatically changed views on several subjects, so we should be cautious quoting from his early works.

</blockquote>

Sometimes I feel ashamed that I am acting like a "know it all" but the truth is, I feel disturbed and I feel an urge to express my opinion when I see devotees getting disturbed by false ideologies, such as the belief that there is an eternal hell or that the earth is flat.

 

Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami published the book "Sri Krishna Samhita" in the early years of his preaching mission, then (according to Srila Sridhar Mahara) when the edition was out of print he had it reprinted in a second edition. It was a book that the senior devotees of Sri Gaudiya Math studied and discussed. In the books of B.P.Tirtha, Professor Sanyal, B.S.Goswami, Srial Sridhar Maharaj and others they discuss and affirm the key ideas presented in "Sri Krishna Samhita"

 

Kulapavana, I read on another thread where you were talking about Srimad Bhagavatam and you said that it probably was written in its present form about 1500 years ago. Srila Sridhar Maharaj discussed this on one tape I heard, and he said that Srimad Bhagavatam probably was written (in its present form) in the 8th century in South India, as there are a number of references in Bhagavatam which point to it being written in this period. This, of course, is one of the "highly controversial" ideas that have come to us via Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur.

 

Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami himself taught a "modernist" view of things, just like what is presented in "Sri Krishna Samhita". We see the main points in "Sri Krishna Samhita" are also presented in the writings of Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami. In fact I can show you many references in the writings of Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami where he affirms all the several "highly controversial" ideas of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur presented in "Sri Krishna Samhita". He didn't differ from the approach of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur.

 

This discussion don't really relate to this thread about "hell" so I won't post anything more about it here. Excepte that I will mention that in "The Bhagavat Lecture" Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur said this:

<blockquote>

In the common-place books of the Hindu religion... there are 84 divisions of the hell itself, some more dreadful than the one which Milton has described in his 'Paradise Lost' . These are certainly poetical and were originally created by the rulers of the country in order to check evil deeds of the ignorant people, who are not able to understand the conclusions of philosophy. The religion of the Bhagavata is free from such a poetry.

</blockquote>

 

I asked Srila Sridhar Maharaj about this quote and he told me hell exists in the mind and perceptions of people. Heaven and hell are states of mind.

 

Also, in regard to "monkeys", take a look at this:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/10/1027_041027_homo_floresiensis.html

 

Blonde, going grey. I have a German/Irish family tree. If you shake my family tree some Nazis will fall out. My son Nitai has red hair. Srila B.S. Govinda Maharaj said one day, "That boy is a kshatriya".

<blockquote>

as to being "sensible" about such matters: sensibilities vary, and depend on the level of understanding. to a person who experienced ghosts it is perfectly sensible to believe in them - to others, such sensibility may seem like a foolishness. Nagas can come out of the ground here on earth from their own world (planet) - there are countless stories all over the world illustrating that, not just the Vedas. Is that sensible? for me it makes perfect sense - for others it may be a fairy tale.

</blockquote>

I fully agree.

 

I think the worst things happen when people take a "fundamentalist" approach to things they read about in the scriptures. Someone reads that many demons have red hair, so they become prejudiced against all people with red hair. We need to use our intelligence, when we read books. This is what Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur taught. In Sri Krishna Samhita, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur says that the people of South India were regarded as "monkeys" by others, and thus that Hanuman and Sugriva etc were described as monkeys, with tails, when they were in fact human beings.