Gauracandra

********************************************* I really feel my heart melting while reading your story on the passing of Srila Gaur Govinda Swami. I never have heard this story, and I thank you very much for haviug narrated it. ********************************************* Haribol Dasha, I'm glad you enjoyed this. Believe me Srila Gaur Govinda Swami has such a beautiful soul. If you get the chance you must pick up a copy of "The Embankment of Separation". His disciples publish some of the best looking publications out there (in terms of layout, artwork etc....). It is beginning to end unbelievably sweet. Trust me you won't be able to put it down. Other publications include "Sadhu-Sanga, the Birthplace of Bhakti", "Krsna Prema Bhakti", and "Gopal Jiu, the Beloved Diety of Srila Gaur Govinda Swami". In Gopal Jiu the story of the entire lineage of Gaur Govinda Swami's family is recorded and how they first received the diety from a brahman from Vrindavan. Its a small book, but it is a precious gem. The diety itself is several hundred years old and the Gadai-giri family (Gaur Govinda Swami's) is reknowned as expert Kirtaneers. Several hundred years ago, the King of Orissa even made a public recording that anytime the Gadai-giri family comes to Jagannath Puri, they are to be given access to perform for Lord Jagannath at the Jagannath Puri temple. It really is a wonderful book. Perhaps I'll post some of it here. And if you ever heard Srila Gaur Govinda Swami sing, it is unlike anything you have heard. It has nothing to do with formality, or the rules of singing. He has his own unique style. Anyways, I'm glad you enjoyed it. Oh yeah, his disciples also publish a fantastic publication called "Sri Krsna Kathamrita". Again, some of the best artwork, layouts, stories, esoteric information. This magazine is really gorgeous. Gauracandra

I apologize but my original posting did not make it fully intact so I'm posting it again. ********************************************* "We simply have to develop love of God" Yes, in fact it is so simple !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is all we have to do. Yes, but who did it ? Do you know someone who did it truly ? What I mean is that we allways hear that: Chant the Holy Name and developp love of God. This is theorycal. ********************************************* It is not theoretical. In point of fact I do know someone who did it truly. I hesitate to mention his name because you will only dismiss his devotion and raise questions for the sake of questions like “Prove to me he had love of God” rather than sincerely inquiring . I can not prove that anyone had love of God. I truly know no one’s heart. I can only look at their life dedicated to the Lord, listen to their philosophy and with the intelligence God has given me draw my own conclusions as to their advancement. But for your information the saint I speak of is Srila Gaur Govinda Swami Maharaj, the dedicated disciple of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj. One can study the life of a sadhu to understand that spiritual life is not theoretical. It is more than academic knowledge. While I can not fully describe the saintly characteristics of Srila Gaur Govinda Maharaj, his life of devotion, and his deep application of the process of chanting the holy names of the Lord in this small posting (or even many postings) I will try to give you some understanding. Let me state that I accept the words of Lord Sri Krsna when he says “And whoever, at the end of his life, quits his body, remembering Me alone, at once attains My nature. Of this there is no doubt.” Through a life dedicated to Lord Sri Krsna, Srila Gaur Govinda Maharaj attained him. I now present to you The Transcendental Passing of Srila Gaur Govinda Maharaj from the book “The Embankment of Separation” in a section called “A Life of Devotion”. ********************************************* On February 9th, 1996, the holy appearance day of Srila Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati, two senior devotees requested an appointment to see Srila Gaur Govinda Swami. They had never spoken with him before, but they had become eager to hear from him after reading some of his books. As if by providential arrangement, they entered his room at 6.00 p.m. and submissively inquired, "Why did Caitanya Mahaprabhu stay in Jagannatha Puri?" He laughed with delight and began to explain the confidential significance of Mahaprabhu's pastimes. In answer to this question he lovingly described the pain of separation felt by Radha and Krsna when Krsna was away from Vrndavana. He had often narrated this moving pastime as recorded in Chapter Eight of this great work, "The Embankment of Separation". Enchanting all the devotees in his room with the nectarean topics of Krsna, he gradually unfolded the pastime to the point where Radha and Krsna were finally united after Their long separation. He described how Krsna became so ecstatic upon seeing Radharani that He manifested a form with big round eyes, known as Lord Jagannatha. With a choked voice he said, "Then the eyes of Krsna fell upon the eyes of Radharani. Eye-to-Eye union." Overwhelmed with love for Radha and Krsna, he apologized with folded hands, "Please excuse me, I cannot speak". In a barely audible voice he gave his final instruction: "Nama Koro! Nama Koro! (Chant the holy name)" All the devotees began to chant as their spiritual master lay back on his bed, breathing very slowly and deeply. A servant nearby placed a picture of Gopal Jiu [his childhood deity] in his hand. Then, gazing lovingly at the picture of his worshipable deity, Srila Gaur Govinda Swami called out, "Gopal!" and departed for the spiritual sky to be united with his beloved Lord. Every day before Srimad-Bhagavatam class, Srila Gaur Govinda Swami would sing a song he had learned as a boy. Now his prayer was fulfilled. paramananda he madhava padungaluchi makaranda se-makaranda pana-kari anande bolo 'hari hari' harinka name vandha vela pari karive caka-dola se-caka-dolanka-payare mana-mo rahu nirantare mana mo nirantare rahu 'ha-krsna' boli jiva jau 'ha-krsna' boli jau jiva mote udhara radha-dhava mote udhara radha-dhava mote udhara radha-dhava "O supremely blissful Madhava! The nectar is coming from Your lotus feet. Drinking that nectar, I blissfully sing 'Hari! Hari!' With the name of Hari I am binding a raft on which Lord Jagannatha will ferry me across this ocean of material existence. My mind always remains at the lotus feet of that Lord Jagannatha who has very large round eyes. In this way, I call out "Ha Krsna!" and give up my life. O husband of Radharani, please deliver me." The sadhu never speaks theoretically. ********************************************* The sadhu never speaks theoretically. Gauracandra

<<"We simply have to develop love of God" <<Yes, in fact it is so simple !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <<That is all we have to do. <<Yes, but who did it ? <<Do you know someone who did it truly ? <<What I mean is that we allways hear that: Chant the Holy Name and developp <<love of God. <<This is theorycal. It is not theoretical. In point of fact I do know someone who did it truly. I hesitate to mention his name because you will only dismiss his devotion and raise questions for the sake of questions like “Prove to me he had love of God” rather than sincerely inquiring . I can not prove that anyone had love of God. I truly know no one’s heart. I can only look at their life dedicated to the Lord, listen to their philosophy and with the intelligence God has given me draw my own conclusions as to their advancement. But for your information the saint I speak of is Srila Gaur Govinda Swami Maharaj, the dedicated disciple of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj. One can study the life of a sadhu to understand that spiritual life is not theoretical. It is more than academic knowledge. While I can not fully describe the saintly characteristics of Srila Gaur Govinda Maharaj, his life of devotion, and his deep application of the process of chanting the holy names of the Lord in this small posting (or even many postings) I will try to give you some understanding. Let me state that I accept the words of Lord Sri Krsna when he says “And whoever, at the end of his life, quits his body, remembering Me alone, at once attains My nature. Of this there is no doubt.” Through a life dedicated to Lord Sri Krsna, Srila Gaur Govinda Maharaj attained him. I now present to you The Transcendental Passing of Srila Gaur Govinda Maharaj from the book “The Embankment of Separation” in a section called “A Life of Devotion”. ********************************************* On February 9th, 1996, the holy appearance day of Srila Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati, two senior devotees requested an appointment to see Srila Gaur Govinda Swami. They had never spoken with him before, but they had become eager to hear from him after reading some of his books. As if by providential arrangement, they entered his room at 6.00 p.m. and submissively inquired, "Why did Caitanya Mahaprabhu stay in Jagannatha Puri?" He laughed with delight and began to explain the confidential significance of Mahaprabhu's pastimes. In answer to this question he lovingly described the pain of separation felt by Radha and Krsna when Krsna was away from Vrndavana. He had often narrated this moving pastime as recorded in Chapter Eight of this great work, "The Embankment of Separation". Enchanting all the devotees in his room with the nectarean topics of Krsna, he gradually unfolded the pastime to the point where Radha and Krsna were finally united after Their long separation. He described how Krsna became so ecstatic upon seeing Radharani that He manifested a form with big round eyes, known as Lord Jagannatha. With a choked voice he said, "Then the eyes of Krsna fell upon the eyes of Radharani. Eye-to-Eye union." Overwhelmed with love for Radha and Krsna, he apologized with folded hands, "Please excuse me, I cannot speak". In a barely audible voice he gave his final instruction: "Nama Koro! Nama Koro! (Chant the holy name)" All the devotees began to chant as their spiritual master lay back on his bed, breathing very slowly and deeply. A servant nearby placed a picture of Gopal Jiu [his childhood deity] in his hand. Then, gazing lovingly at the picture of his worshipable deity, Srila Gaur Govinda Swami called out, "Gopal!" and departed for the spiritual sky to be united with his beloved Lord. Every day before Srimad-Bhagavatam class, Srila Gaur Govinda Swami would sing a song he had learned as a boy. Now his prayer was fulfilled. paramananda he madhava padungaluchi makaranda se-makaranda pana-kari anande bolo 'hari hari' harinka name vandha vela pari karive caka-dola se-caka-dolanka-payare mana-mo rahu nirantare mana mo nirantare rahu 'ha-krsna' boli jiva jau 'ha-krsna' boli jau jiva mote udhara radha-dhava mote udhara radha-dhava mote udhara radha-dhava "O supremely blissful Madhava! The nectar is coming from Your lotus feet. Drinking that nectar, I blissfully sing 'Hari! Hari!' With the name of Hari I am binding a raft on which Lord Jagannatha will ferry me across this ocean of material existence. My mind always remains at the lotus feet of that Lord Jagannatha who has very large round eyes. In this way, I call out "Ha Krsna!" and give up my life. O husband of Radharani, please deliver me." The sadhu never speaks theoretically. ********************************************* The sadhu never speaks theoretically. Gauracandra

Actually, the chanting of the Holy Names of God is considered the easiest process for attaining Him in Vedantic philosophy. There is no restriction based on caste, sex, economic status etc.... We simply have to develop love of God. Unfortunately, there are always those who wish to deceive in every religion. Because of this it is important to listen carefully and properly discriminate those who are simply trying to attract power and those who are offering sincere guidance. Unlike some other religions, the Vedantic philosophy does not give a person just one chance to attain salvation. While a person may be taken down various paths, if he is developing some level of purity, then in his next life he will continue in his search from that level of purity. The key is trying to follow the essense of true religious philosophy like mercy, self-restraint, humility, love etc.... Love God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul.... The rest is just details. At least this is my understanding. Gauracandra

Yes, I agree Animesh. Service to those who are in need will alway bring joy to the heart. While we often may become slack in our duty to help others less fortunate, it is during tragedies that we are shaken out of our complacency. It is good to hear of your good charitable work. It is interesting to note that it is during our most terrible times that we see both the worst and best in people. During natural disasters often there are looters who steal the final meager possessions of the distraught. But there are also those who unite as a community in helping their fellow man. During war there are those who bring death (Hitler) and those that reinforce life (Oscar Schindler). Gauracandra

<<scratch scratch>> I'm a bit confused here on what your question is Bhakta Shakta. It seems to me your questions is "Given a certain philosophical system (in this case Vedantic)why is there a need for deities". I think JNDas has answered this but that you have changed the question mid-stream. Given a certain philosophical construct, we have words that have meaning within context, and a flow of thought that connects various elements to provide the "need" for an element in that philosophical construct. You may accept or reject that philosophy, but that is really a separate issue. If I ask "Why need the sky be above me? Why can't it be below me?" the answer is that "We have defined the word sky as that which is above you". Ultimately, it seems to me your point comes down to "Why?" to which I would respond "Why ask Why?" {for those in the US, please no cheesy beer promotions}. When JNDas asked:"Philosophically what is the need for planets?" You replied: "Because I can verify its existence empirically." But I think you missed his point, because really you have changed the question mid-stream. You did not ask for proof that dieties exist, just what is their need in a certain philosophy. The need can only be explained within the context of that philosophy. I think the best way to aid in this questioning would be for you to try to give us an answer to your question. I realize that you are the questioner so you really shouldn't have an answer. However, if you attempted to answer your own question it may give us clues as to the precise nature of your inquiry. Beyond that I honestly don't see where this question is heading. Gauracandra

I was very sorry to hear this evening that there was a massive earthquake that has killed hundreds of people in Gujarat. I just wanted to express my hopes that the people in that region recover as quickly as possible. During the cyclone disaster in Orissa last year (I think it was last year??) my temple held a few programs to raise money for food relief and medical help. They put on some nice Odissi dance performances and such. Perhaps the temple management will engage in similar activities to help the people of this disaster. As a side note, I was thinking that temples from all denominations should unite their members to create a sort of disaster relief fund. This wouldn't be a fund to dip into for every day occurences but just the really big natural catastrophes. It could be managed professionally, accruing interest, and then once every few years when something like this occurs there can be a targetted effort with these funds to relieve the situation as quickly as possible. Gauracandra

I have often taken the view that God reveals himself based on time, place and circumstances. With this view in mind I have no problem harmonizing many different religious views. Take for instance Native Americans. Based on their culture Divinity was revealed in certain ways. Perhaps they view the Great White Buffalo as being sacred. Should I consider them wrong? No. In the Bhagavad Gita Krsna shows Arjuna his universal form which contained within it all the demigods, planets, etc.... Now some of the stories Native Americans have may be allegorical but speak of a higher reality that their shamans can perceive. I don't think it would be proper for me to consider these myth just because I can't perceive it or relate to it particularly. Just a few quick thoughts before I head out to work. Gauracandra

I think it depends on what you mean by Hindu. This is often a cause of confusion and is due mostly to semantics. Due to the nature of Indian spirituality, especially with the Guru system, institutional structures tend to break down as previous disciples go on to become gurus themselves. As such, there is far more religious diversity in India than probably anywhere else in the world. Certainly one can categorize various lines as being Vaisnava, Shaivite, Tantric, etc.... In general the word Hindu is a catchall term used to describe any and all faiths originating and flourishing in India. Personally I don't describe myself as Hindu. If someone asks me what religion I belong to I'll generally say "I'm a Vaisnava", if pressed further I'll say "I'm a Vaisnava in the line of Caitanya". Thus can one become "Hindu" is a tricky question. There are some lines that consider anyone not born Indian not to be eligible for certain positions. In the line I follow we have a saint named Haridas Thakur who was born muslim but loved Krishna. However, because he was born muslim certain caste concious Hindus rejected him. So it is kind of tricky to answer this question. Gauracandra

I'm the 1000th poster What no bells, no whistles? Isn't there some sort of prize that goes along with this? Anyways, I'm just being goofy, but it is cool that so many people have been able to get together and discuss spiritual topics. Now I'll have to wait until 10,000 - theres gotta be a prize for that. Gauracandra

Haribol Dubeyrakesh, I don't know much about Alexander The Great's life or travels to India. As I understand it he thought India would be easy to conquer but found it very difficult indeed. Both tribal fighting, the weather etc... took a hard toll on his soldiers. At one point I think he was almost fatally wounded in one war, with an arrow piercing his armor. Again, I don't have a whole lot of information. I believe he made it all the way to the Ganges. There is a semi-famous account that is often brought up by ufo people with regard to Alexander and India. Apparently, one of his generals kept a diary and in one of his last attacks mentions that while trying to push forward further into India they were confronted by "flying fiery shields" and so they stopped their forward advance. Apparently the diary is entirely real, so we can make of this entry what we want. I have always thought that Vedic and Greek civilization were related. The following passages [edited to be short] come from a book called "Vedic Archeology and assorted essays": "Heliodorus was a Greek ambassador to India in the second century B.C. Few details are know about the diplomatic relations between the Greeks and the Indians in those days, and, unfortunately, still less is know about Heliodorus. Nevertheless the column he erected at Besnagar in central India about 113 B.C. is considered one of the most important archeological finds on the Indian subcontinent. [i've edited for brevity here. Next we look at a translation of the inscription on this column] A reproduction of the inscription, along with the translation of the ancient Brahmi text, is given here as it appeared in the Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society: This Garuda-column of Vasudeva (Vishnu), the God of gods, was erected here by Heliodorus, a worshipper of Vishnu and the son of Dion. Heliodorus was an inhabitant of Taxila, who came as a Greek ambassador from the Great King Antialkidas to King Kasiputra Bhagabhadra, the Savior, then reigning prosperously in the fourteenth year of his kingship." Several years ago while watching the history channel I was amazed to find that at one point Cleopatra also tried to conquer India. She didn't get far. Apparently, before she was about to be be captured she had several fleets of boats built, and dragged across land, with the intent to sail to India, escape her enemies, and set up a kingdom in India. Anyways, the slaves who were dragging her boats across land were attacked, the boats burned, and she was ultimately captured. Still it would have been interesting if she had made it to India. Gauracandra

I think language can tell us alot about a people. The same can be said for Sanskrit. To me it isn't surprising that such a fluid, non-linear language as Sanskrit would shape such forward thinking philosophies as have emanated from India. Think about it. The very idea of time from a vedantic perspective is entirely nonlinear. Never was there a time when we did not exist. There is no beginning and there is no end. It overlaps itself, revolving in cycles. The idea of infinite universes, the creation and destruction and creation of universes all flow from the philosophy of Sanskrit. If a single sentence can be said in numerous ways, then why can not God be perceived from multiple angles of vision. "Though He is one, the wise describe him in many ways". Thats the one thing that has always fascinated me about Vaisnava philosophy. Many other religions (and I do not say this as criticism) tend to be "ground" based where as Vaisnava and Vedantic philosophy tends to look at the universe and is "cosmically" based, if you know what I mean. Its big and vast, with the layers of the universe one after another, outside of this universe even more universes, further and further, all of which are tiny little dots to MahaVishnu. And beyond all this are the Vaikuntha planets. The whole philosophy has a very big sweep, and telescopes man, on this tiny planet, orbiting the sun, outwards beyond the heavens, beyond the universe. I think this all derives from the brilliance of the Sanskrit language. Gauracandra

Well, on one level it is the same with all religions. The Catholics have a different view than Southern Baptists, who have a different understanding than the Quakers, who think differently than do the Mormons, who have a varied understanding from the Lutherans etc.... Another reason is that Sanskrit words often have several meanings. One example is the word for twice-born (dvija??? not sure). It can mean being twice born as in Brahminical initiation, it can also mean a tooth (first teeth and then the second teeth come in), it can also mean a bird (first the egg, then hatching from the egg). These varied meanings are often sources of debate among the acharyas. On this site there is a story of Ramanujacharya giving a translation of a word describing Visnu. The Sankarites said it meant something like "Lord Visnu's eyes are as red as the buttocks of a monkey", whereas Ramanuja took the same word and declared it to mean "Lord Visnu's eyes are like Lotus petals reddened by the sun" (something like that, I don't have the story in front of me). Gauracandra

I wanted to follow up on my previous post and address the non-linear aspect of Sanskrit. Here is a very simple English sentence with the Subject-Verb-Object construction: Rama kills Ravana This is a sentence at its most basic. There is no other way to use these same words with out changing the meaning of the sentence or rendering the sentence incomprehensible. Now I am not a Sanskrit expert, but I did study Sanskrit for a little while with a south indian Brahmin, who explained that this simple sentence could be rearranged in every possible way and still mean the same thing. Thus in Sanskrit we could have: Rama kills Ravana Ravana kills Rama Rama Ravana kills Ravana Rama kills Kills Rama Ravana Kills Ravana Rama The reason for this is because in Sanskrit each word contains within it both its number (1 Rama, several Ramas etc...) and its place (Subject, Object). The actual Sanskrit would be: Ramaha vadhati Ravanam. The name is Rama but you know it is the subject because it is RamaHA, and the name is Ravana but you know it is the object because it is RavanaM. If Rama was the object it would be RamaM and if Ravana was the subject it would be RavanaHA. Because the words contain their position within the sentence they can be placed in any order. The only difference would be the Sandhi (I think thats what it is called). Essentially this is a sort of reaction that occurs when two words meet each other in a sentence. Either the end of one word changes, or the beginning of the other word changes, or both change, or the words merge together etc.... The purpose of this is very interesting. The goal is to make the Sanskrit sentence as easy to pronounce as possible and as aurally pleasant as well. The only thing I can think of in English that is similar would be words like can't, won't, didn't etc.... I could say "I will not go to the store" but it is easier to say "I won't go to the store" and it sounds better as well. But Sanskrit accounts for this balance of pronounciation and sound across all word combinations. Whats great about this non-linear approach is that it makes the poetic form relatively easy to construct. It is said that in the spiritual world all speach is song and all walking is dancing. Well now I can see why. If you can't find a word to fit the metered structure, just rearrange the words till it does fit the appropriate poetic form. No wonder it is called the language of the gods. Gauracandra

Hi Gtam, That was very well said. Often the discipline of religion is meant to keep us from being whimsical in our pursuits. These regulative principles are not meant to cause us distress, rather they will prevent much needless suffering from occuring. Gauracandra

I've noticed that a few of the posters to these forums are software engineers. So I was curious if any of you can enlighten me on this topic. I have read on various places on the internet that Sanskrit is considered the ideal language for higher level computer programming and that a lot of research has been done in this regard. I have taken a few classes in Sanskrit in the past, and the one thing that struck me was that it was a very non-linear language. Adjectives, nouns, verbs etc... could be placed in many different orders, as opposed to the strict Subject-Verb-Object construction in English. So if any of you have information on this please share. Gauracandra

Thus far we have looked at the case for Vegetarianism from both a philosophical and environmental perspective. We have seen quotes from such thinkers as Pythagoras, Einstein, and Thoreau. We have also seen what various diverse religious paths from Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, and Buddhism have to say in this regard. But the case for Vegetarianism is not solely based on the ethics of such diverse religious paths. In this regard, I have presented a view of the environmental damage that accrues due to meat eating. It should be noted that I have really only scratched the surface in laying out the environmental damage due to meat eating. Having thus looked at vegetarianism from both a philosophical and environmental perspective, I wish now to turn to meat eating as a source of health problems in the U.S. The two main killers in the U.S. are heart disease and cancer both of which are highly correlated to a meat based diet. The Journal of the American Medical Association reported in 1961 that a “vegetarian diet can prevent ninety to ninety-seven percent of heart disease.” Why might this be? Well, I remember taking a nutrition class in college. One day my professor stood up holding a bottle of Saffola Sunflower oil and asked the class to estimate how much cholesterol this oil contained. Our guesses were all over the place and every one of us was wrong. Finally, my professor said it contains 0% Cholesterol because Cholesterol comes ONLY from animal products. About 65-70% of the average person’s cholesterol is genetic (ie. Produced from within his own body). The other 30-35% of cholesterol is due solely from the animal products we eat. Therefore conceivably one could cut one’s cholesterol level by about 1/3rd simply by moving to a plant based diet. This would lead to lower blood pressure, less plaque build up on the arterial walls, and thus lower chance of heart attack. Heart attacks kill about 1 person every 45 seconds. A male meat-eater’s risk of death from heart attack is about 50% compared to 15% for a non-meat-eater (if he should even have a heart attack in the first place). Cancer levels are also much lower among vegetarians than meat eaters. There was a study of 11,000 people in England that showed that vegetarians were 40% less likely to suffer from cancer. Why might this be? Well, for one reason, when meat is cooked it produces an array of benzenes and other carcinogenic substances. Meat also doesn’t pass through the intestinal tract very easily, and often sits decomposing in the intestines. This helps explain the increase risk of colon cancer among meat-eaters. Meat-eating animals like tigers and lions produce much greater levels of hydrochloric acid to digest the meat. Man has a relatively weak level of acidic expulsion. The intestines of tigers and lions tend to be straight and short (about 5 feet long) and so pass out the decomposing material easily. Comparatively, man’s intestinal tract is winding over and about itself and extends about 20 feet. Plants with their high fiber content pass through as stool much easier than do meat products and also do not decompose and putrefy as quickly as meat. I can go through a bunch of statistics on health issues with relation to meat eating. Whether it is heart attack or cancer, or kidney stones (from the large quantity of salt from meat) or obesity or a host of other diseases. One can judge an activity by the reactions resulting from that action. One will not get cancer or heart disease by eating his green leafy broccoli, or eating apples, bananas, or pears, or by eating wheat, and grain, and beans. One does have a much greater chance of cancer and heart disease from eating meat. Here’s wishing the best to all of our health. Gauracandra

It seems your argument is something along these lines: "Man is able to eat meat. Therefore God meant for man to eat meat. But because God says don't eat meat, therefore this is proof that the religious injunctions against meat eating are wrong". I think thats roughly it. However, I think you are making a fundamentally flawed logical mistake in assuming utilization follows purpose. There are many products we can use for purposes other than what they were intended for. A real quick example off the top of my head is a butter knife. A butter knife is meant for spreading butter. However, a butter knife can also be used for cutting raw meat. Its not very efficient but it can be done. Now lets use the butter knife in the original example: "A butter knife is able to cut raw meat. Therefore the butter knife maker wanted it used to cut raw meat. But an instruction manual that purports to know how to use the butter knife says only to spread butter with it. Therefore the writer of this manual must be wrong....." Something like that. Again my analogy isn't perfect but I think you get my point. I believe that outside of religious injunctions, the case against meat eating is very strong. One can look at it on an ethical level, on an environmental level, on a health level etc.... Religious injunctions are meant to unify these various thoughts and ideas for the best functioning of society. Just like traffic signals, while they restrict our movement, they also allow for the better functioning of society. There are times, however, when during an emergency you may have to run a red light. Or perhaps (appropo to this conversation) you need to eat meat (say you are stranded in the forest). But society as a whole will be better served following these regulations than not following them. Take care. Gauracandra

Here are some facts about meat eating that I gathered mostly from a book called "Divine Nature". ********************************************* According to the Vegetarian Times, half of the annual destruction of tropical rain forests is caused by clearing land for beef cattle ranches. Each pound of hamburger made from Central American or South American beef costs about 55 square feet of rain forest vegetation. In the United States, about 260 million acres of forest have been cleared for a meat-centered diet. Each person who becomes a vegetarian saves one acre of trees per year. About half of the world’s grain is consumed by animals that are later slaughtered for meat. This is a very inefficient process. It takes 16 pounds of grain and soybeans to produce 1 pound of feedlot beef. If people were to subsist on grains and other vegetarian foods alone, this would put far less strain on the earth’s agricultural lands. About 20 vegetarians can be fed on the land that it takes to feed 1 meat eater. 80% of the corn raised in the U.S. is fed to livestock, as well as 95% of the oats. Altogether, 56% of all agricultural land in the US is used for beef production. If all of the soybeans and grain fed to U.S. livestock were set aside for human consumption, it would feed 1.3 billion people. 1,000 species become extinct each year due to rain forest destruction. About 50% of water pollution in the U.S. is linked to livestock. All around the world, the beef industry is wasting the diminishing supplies of fresh water. For example, the livestock industry in the U.S. takes about 50% of the water consumed each year. During the process of converting grain to meat, 90% of the protein, 99% of the carbohydrates, and 100% of the dietary fiber are lost. ********************************************* Gauracandra

Haribol everyone, I've compiled a short list of quotes from various sources regarding vegetarianism. Hope you enjoy. “I do feel that spiritual progress does demand at some stage that we cease to kill our fellow creatures for the satisfaction of our bodily wants” – Gandhi “I have no doubt that it is part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals” – Thoreau “While we ourselves are the living graves of murdered beasts, how can we expect any ideal conditions on this earth?” – Shaw “Oh, my fellow men, do not defile your bodies with sinful foods. We have corn, we have apples bending down the branches with their weight, and grapes swelling on the vines. There are sweet-flavored herbs, and vegetables which can be cooked and softened over the fire, nor are you denied milk or thyme-scented honey. The earth affords a lavish supply of riches, of innocent foods, and offers you banquets that involve no bloodshed or slaughter; only beasts satisfy their hunger with flesh, and not even all of those, because horses, cattle, and sheep live on grass” – Pythagoras “[flesh eating is] simply immoral, as it involves the performance of an act which is contrary to moral feeling – killing….man suppresses in himself, unnecessarily, the highest spiritual capacity – that of sympathy and pity towards living creatures like himself – and by violating his own feelings becomes cruel” – Tolstoy “Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in that which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherever there is life, I have given every green herb for meat; and it was so.” – The Bible, Genesis 1:29-30 “But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. And surely YOUR blood of YOUR lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it” – The Bible, Genesis 9:4 “Saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he-goats. When ye spread forth your hands, I will hide Mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear, for your hands are full of blood.” – The Bible, Isaiah 1:5 “He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man” – The Bible, Isaiah 66:3 “Having well considered the disgusting origin of flesh and the cruelty of fettering and slaying of corporeal beings, let him entirely abstain from eating flesh” – Manu Samhita “The vegetarian manner of living, by its purely physical effect on the human temperament, would most beneficially influence the lot of mankind” – Einstein “In this age the propensity for mercy is almost nil. Consequently there is always fighting and wars between men and nations. Men do not understand that because they unrestrictedly kill so many animals, they must also be slaughtered like animals in big wars” – Srila Prabhupada “If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, a fruit, or water, I will accept it” – The Bhagavad Gita 9:26 “For that which befalleth the sons of men, befalleth beasts, even one thing befalleth them: As the one dieth, so dieth the other. Yes, they have all ONE breath. So that a man hath no pre-eminence above a beast – for all is vanity” The Bible, Ecclesiastes 3:19 “Take care not to destroy God’s work for the sake of something to eat” – The Bible, Romans 14:20 “Moreover, ye shall eat no manner of blood, whether it be of fowl or of beast, in any of your dwellings” – The Bible, Leviticus 7:26 “We the Christian leaders, practice abstinence from the flesh of animals to subdue our bodies … the unnatural eating of flesh-meat is polluting” – Saint John Chrysostom A.D. 345-407 “And the flesh of slain beasts in his body will become his own tomb. For I tell you truly, he who kills, kills himself, and whoso eats the flesh of slain beasts, eats the body of death” – The Essene Gospel of Peace “Ahimsa is the highest duty” – Padma Purana 1.31.27 “The eating of meat extinguishes the seed of great compassion” – Mahaparinirvana Sutra “The very name of the cows is aghnya, indicating that they should never be slaughtered. Who, then, could slay them? Surely, one who kills a cow or a bull commits the most heinous crime” – Mahabharata, Shantiparva 262.47 Gauracandra

This topic is very interesting. A devotee researcher, Dr. Richard Thompson, has done alot of analysis into these sorts of topics. He has, for instance, done extensive research into the Vedic descriptions of Vimanas, or flying chariots, and the various weapons used in the Mahabharat and Ramayan. Along time ago I read a quote by the principle scientist who developed the atomic bomb for the US in the 1940s. Apparently, when he created it he was quoted as reciting a sanskrit verse along the lines of "Now I have become Shiva, Destroyer of the world". I have search all over but can't find that quote right at this moment. When asked about this weapon he reportedly made some comment that suggested such weapons had been used in the past. I really wish I had written down this information. Anyways, here is a translation of the description of the atomic weapon from the Mahabharata: "(the weapon was) a single projectile charged with all the power of the Universe. An incandescent column of smoke and flame as bright as the thousand suns rose in all its splendor. An iron thunderbolt, a gigantic messenger of death, which reduced to ashes the entire race of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas. The corpses were so burned as to be unrecognizable. The hair and nails fell out [radiation poisoning???]; pottery broke without apparent cause, and the birds turned white.... after a few hours all foodstuffs were infected [again radiation poisoning???].... to escape from this fire, the soldiers threw themselves in streams to wash themselves and their equipment..." Gauracandra

Hey everyone, My aunt sent me an article about some vegetarian entrepreneurs and I figured I'd send it along to all of you. Since I'm vegetarian she tends to send these sorts of things to me. The article is called "Healthy Prophets" (a little play on the word profits) with a subline "Marketing tasty vegetarian dishes has Rachel and Andy Berliner rolling in the dough". I realize this isn't necessarily spiritual per se but figured it was some evidence of the growing acceptability of vegetarianism. Here's the article (I believe from People magazine): ********************************************* "My first memory of solid food," says Amy Berliner, 13,"was looking at Amy's Kitchen macaroni and cheese and thinking, 'Yummy!' I had no idea I was the Amy." Or that so many other people were thinking "Yummy!" too. Begun by Amy's parents, Andy and Rachel Berliner, in their Petaluma, Calif., home in 1987, Amy's Kitchen produces frozen, organic, preservative-free, vegetarian dishes for health food stores and supermarkets. A hit from the start - six months after the company's inception, its first item, a vegetable pot pie, was outselling meat pies in health food stores nationwide - Amy's is now a $90 million-a-year enterprise commanding 70% of the organic frozen food market. "The Berliners are pioneers" says Mike Gilliland, founder and CEO of the Wild Oats organic-food chain. “They’ve made comfort food that’s healthy.” That, not big bucks, was what the Berliners were after from the beginning. Amy’s Kitchen got its start when Rachel, pregnant with Amy in 1987, worried about having time to cook nutritious meals once their baby was born. “Until then,” she says, “there had never been anything good and frozen.” Realizing that others must share their need, the couple launched the biz and named it after their daughter. “We looked at it as: We are going to make good food,” says Rachel, 47. “The money came afterward.” Indeed, both cash and know-how were initially in short supply. “It was hard to start something on the ground floor,” says Andy, 53, who raised $20,000 in seed money by selling his gold watch, pawning Rachel’s car and remortgaging their house. “I couldn’t afford to hire anyone who actually knew anything.” So they taste-tested the pot pie for a month in the kitchen of their Victorian farmhouse before finally getting it right. Their repertoire grew gradually (Amy’s 60-plus offerings now include the $1.89 Bean Burrito, $4.49 Spinach Pizza and $4.99 Skillet Meals) as the couple sought advice on packaging and freezing from equipment makers – and eventual competitors. “I called Swanson”, says Andy. “They were happy to help.” For the first two years Andy would rise at 3 a.m. every day to make the sauce, then drive to the bakery to supervise the pie making. These days, 600 employees whip up 180,000 meals daily at a warehouse – though the Berliners are on call around the clock. “We still get calls from cooks:’Can you taste the sauce?’” Andy says. “[We] come to the door in [our] pajamas.” Fred Scarpulla, Amy’s chef for the past 11 years, says that Rachel “has the best mouth for picking out flavours”. (She also oversees the company’s package design and its $100,000 ad campaign.) The daughter of a Los Angeles private investor, Rachel grew up eating vegetables from her librarian mother’s organic garden. “My mother always said, ‘If you can’t pronounce an ingredient on a label, it’s a good idea not to eat it,’” Rachel says. (Mom Eleanor Goodman, 69, now writes the copy on Amy’s Kitchen boxes; Rachel’s brother Joel, 49, is a company vice president.) Andy was raise on heartier fare. His father was a Chicago meat buyer, his mother a legal secretary. A self-described “spiritual seeker” who turned to vegetarianism in his 20s, Andy helped run a profitable newspaper while a student at Purdue University. He was managing a small herbal tea company, and Rachel was working for a homeopathic doctor, when they met on a meditation retreat in India in 1979. Each was married at the time, but after their respective unions broke up they began dating. They we in 1985. Millionaires today, the Berliners still live simply: Their only indulgences are twin silver BMWs. “We like nice things,” says Andy, “but we don’t want a lot of them.” Nor do they want to sell their mom-and-pop operation, despite plenty of offers from conglomerates. After all, the next generation is already in place. “Its nice for people to know that Amy’s Kitchen is family-owned,” says Amy, an only child. “I love reading the consumer letters. I write back. I want them to know that my family really cares about them.” ********************************************* Gauracandra

Animesh, Wow. Thanks for the great reply. Gauracandra

I was wondering if anyone could enlighten me as to the origin and beliefs of the Sikh faith. Several months ago I visited a large Sikh temple in the San Francisco Bay Area. It was very nice and they served out free prasadam. I have been told that their scriptures consider Govinda to be God(though they don't mention Krsna). Based on my limited knowledge I believe the faith started around the 15th Century at the same time as Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Are there any parallels between Sikhism and the Bhakti movement? As I understand, both were reform movements against the caste system and both helped to unite Hindus and Muslims. Caitanya for instance had many Mohammedan followers. So any information on this topic would be of great interest to me. Gauracandra

I also would point anyone curious to the book "Darwin's Black Box" by Michael Behe a Stanford Microbiologist. Several months ago I summarized his views in a post. Perhaps I'll post that again rather than write up a new one. By the way, it is interesting, that recently the scientific community came to the conclusion that the Neanderthal man is not the predecessor to Man. They now believe that it was (in their words) a "dead end" string ie. its genetic coding died off. This is interesting because I remember in high school memorizing the order of evolution of man with Neanderthal man being one of our ancestors. The question was always "Where is the missing link?" The Neanderthal was this big hairy brute, with a slope shelf forehead. Of course through the centuries there have been many scientific blunders like the Piltdown man hoax (I think thats the one, this was where a monkey head was attached to a human jaw to show the missing link, if I remember correctly, I may be wrong). Now not only have they not found the missing link, now they admit they don't even have the link prior to the missing link. This all came out in the national news I'm guessing a year or so ago. Scientists still adhere to the theory of evolution but say that the Neanderthal man lived at the same time as humans, running parallel to them, but its genetic line died off, while man continued forward. Again, I would highly encourage anyone interested to get the book "Darwin's Black Box". Its very interesting, it gets detailed but stays fun and interesting to read. Gauracandra