Gauracandra

I thought it would be interesting to start a discussion on the relationship between religion and economic development. What prompted this idea was a statement I read on this website a few weeks ago by either JNDAS or ATDAS. I can't find the article at the moment but basically it stated that if you want to increase a persons propensity to become wealthy then you should work to increase his sex desire. Basically as one becomes more lustful one begins to desire more and more. As these desires grow one will work harder and harder trying to fulfill them. I think this discussion can be broken into two parts: 1) Holding any structural issues aside (ie. natural resources, government policy etc...), to what degree does religion affect economic development? For instance, in the west, the Christian conception is that at one point the world was perfect, but man fell down. Because of this many Christian groups emphasize trying, through material works, to create that Kingdom of God here on earth again. Now in many eastern religions, like Buddhism or Hinduism (as a general category) the emphasis is on renunciation. Since the world is temporary the thinking is one should work on attaining spiritual enlightenment by gradually moving away from the material and moving to the spiritual. 2) To what degree does economic development affect our religious views? This idea came to me as I was discussing with a co-worker the political elections that are coming up in the U.S. I made the point that, as we have become more and more wealthy as a civilization, our religious notions of what is right and wrong have become weaker. I made the point, for instance, about cigarette smoking. The reason we view smoking as bad is because it leads to lung cancer and ultimately death. Suppose tomorrow they found a cure for lung cancer, immediately there would be a cultural shift, and I believe the idea that smoking is bad would become much weaker because a great portion of the consequence has been taken away. Now lets apply this to the discussion at hand. In the 1960s the out-of-wedlock birthrate in the U.S. was around 5% for the nation. Forty years later it is now approaching 35%. During this period, the idea that having a child and being unmarried is wrong has gradually weakened. Even many churches these days while not outwardly condoning these activities, shy away from discouraging these activities for fear of being called "closed minded". I would argue that as we have become wealthier, we have been able to "handle" these moral issues by throwing money at them. So what do you think? I'd be interested in any thoughts you may have. Gauracandra

Viji, This is a very nice page. I also visited Nitai's page regarding the Alvars yesterday. Very often the Internet is used as a tool to propogate Kali Yuga. Its nice to know that individuals are able to interconnect and add insight into various spiritual topics. All glories to your promotion of Tulsidas's Ramayana. Gauracandra

Thank you both for your replies. Yes, Viji please post some translations of the Alvar songs. I have never heard them and would like to read their transcendental poetry. Gauracandra

I noticed the editor of IndiaDivine has put up some letters by Aurobindo. I don't know much about his philosophy, but I've heard that Srila Prabhupada said that Aurobindo was philosophically correct on a number of points. A few months ago I saw a program on the Travel channel regarding Auroville. It wasn't particularly long so I didn't get a real good sense of it. The one thing that struck me was a building that was shaped like a giant ball. What is this building? And is there a reason for its curious structure? Also, where does the community of Auroville stand today (ie. who manages/maintains it etc....). I found the letters by Aurobindo very interesting and was just curious to get some more background info. Gauracandra

I was wondering if anyone here could explain to me the significance of the Alvars. I've only heard some brief information on them but would like to know further details. I believe they come in the Sri Vaisnava line and are the incarnations of Visnu's paraphernalia. I may be incorrect on these points. I have also heard that they have composed some of the most beautiful bhajans. If any of the readers here know about them, please post. Thanks again. Gauracandra

Haribol everyone. I was just reading a nice book called "The Life of Ramanujacharya" by Naimisaranya Das. It was published by the Vaisnava Educational Alternative (VEDA) in 1989. There are many nice stories in this book about this great vaisnava. I thought I'd excerpt a portion concerning Yamunacharya (the predecessor to Sri Ramanuja). ******************************************** In the south of India many great devotees have appeared to spread the glories of the Lord. Of all these devotees, perhaps the ost famous is Sri Ramanujacharya, whose life is the subject of this book. However, just before Ramanuja there lived another great Vaisnava whose life and teachings had a tremendous influence on Ramanuja, although in fact the two of them never met. This was Sri Yamunacharya, also known as Alabandara - "The Conqueror". It is appropriate in considering the life of Ramanujacharya that we should first look briefly at this great soul, the illustrious writer of the famous Stotra-ratna. Yamunacharya was born around AD 918 in the city of Madurai in south India, which was then the capital of the mighty Pandya kings. His grandfather was a well-known scholar and devotee known as Nathamuni, who was also famous for his mystic abilities and expertise in the practice of astanga yoga. It was Nathamuni who first compiled the songs of Nammalvara, a famous south Indian devotee, and had them set to music. Nathamuni's son was a handsome, intelligent young man named Isvaramuni, who married a beautiful young wife. Shortly after the wedding, Isvaramuni travelled with his wife and parents to visit the holy places of pilgrimage in northern India, including Vrindavan, the birthplace of Lord Krsna. Just a few months after their return from this pilgrimage, Isvaramuni's wife gave birth to a baby boy, and, in memory of the sacred river which flows through Vrindavana, Nathanmuni named him Yamuna. However, the joy of the young couple was but short-lived, for just a few years after the birth of the child, Isvaramuni passed from this world, leaving his young wife a widow. Nathamuni was so distressed by the untimely death of his son that he decided to have no more to do with the affairs of this world. He left his wife and relatives to take up the life of a renounced sannyasi, totally dedicating himself to the worship of Lord Visnu. Thus at a very young age Yamunacharya was left to be brought up by his mother and aged grandmother, living a life of great poverty. The Challenge When he was five years old, Yamunacharya went to study at the school of Bhasyacharya and quickly won his teacher's affection, both for his sweet nature and his ability to learn quickly. He studied hard, and by the time he was twelve years old he was Bhasyacharya's best student. In those days in India, great scholars used to challenge one another to see who was the more learned in Vedic scriptures and more skilled in the science of logic. While Yamunacharya was studying at the school of Bhasyacharya, there was a great scholar who lived at the court of the Pandya king. His name was Kolahala, and he was a great favorite of the king because he could defeat any other scholar in a debate. In fact, the king had passed a law decreeing that every scholar who had been defeated by Kolahala must pay a tax to him every year - if anyone refused he would be put to death. Now Yamunacharya's teacher, Bhasyacharya, had also been defeated by Kolahala, and so he too was obliged to pay this tax. However, because he was a very poor man, he had not been able to pay for the past two years. One day, when Bhasyacharya was away on business and all the other students had gone home, Yamunacharya was left alone in the school. At that time one of Kolahala's disciples came there to collect the overdue tax from Bhasyacharya. "Where is your teacher?" he demanded in imperious tones when he saw that Yamunacharya was alone in the school. "Might I know, sir, who has sent you here?" replied Yamunacharya in a very gentle voice, anxious not to give any offense. "What!" exclaimed the disciple, "do you not know that I am a disciple of the greatest and most erudite scholar in all of India? Kolahala is the terror of all other scholars, and even the great Pandya king is his obedient servant. All those scholars defeated by the great Kolahala must pay a yearly tax or else forfeit their lives. Has you teacher become insane that he dares to withold payment for two years? Or is it that he intends to challenge my master again, just as a moth rushes into a blazing fire." Yamunacharya was by nature very kindhearted, and he hardly ever quarreled with his fellow students. However, he also had great love and respect for his teacher. Therefore, when he heard Bhasyacharya being spoken of in that contemptuous manner, he felt such pain at heart that he could not restrain himself and replied very strongly to Kolahala's messenger. "How foolish you are and how foolish your teacher is as well, for who but the greatest fool would train his disciple to possess such monumental pride, instead of removing such qualities from his heart. Why should my noble teacher waste his time debating with such a man? Go and tell you master that the lowest disciple of the great Bhasyacharya challenges him to a debate. If he dares to face me, let him send his reply at once." Preparations For The Debate Kolahala's disciple was so astonished and indignant that he could not think of anything to say, but left in a furious rage to inform his teacher of this insult. When Kolahala heard what had happened, he could not help bu tlaugh on hearing the age of his rival. The Pandya king decided to send another messenger to the boy to see whether he was insane, and, if he was serious about the debate, to bring him immediately. When the royal messenger came and told Yamunacharya of the kings command, the boy replied, "I will certainly obey the command of his majesty the king; but if I am to be accepted as a proper opponent of the great Kolahala, then surely a conveyance should be sent to bring me to his palace." After discussing Yamunacharya's reply, the king and his courtiers agreed that the boy's statement was fitting and sent a costly palanquin and one-hundred soldiers to conduct him to the palace. In the meantime news of these events had spread all over the city of Madurai, and Bhasyacarya heard the whole story as he was returning home. He was very unhappy to learn of the danger his favorite student was facing, for though the king was generous by nature, it was well known that he dealt very severely with anyone who insulted the court pandita. Yamunacharya, however, was not in the least concerned. "There is no reason, revered sir, for you to be alarmed," he consoled his teacher when he returned to the school, "for you can be certain that, by your grace, I will smash the pride of Kolahala". While they were thus talking, the king's men arrived at the school with the palanquin. Yamunacharya worshipped the feet of his guru and calmly climbed into the palanquin, preparing himself for the great debate that was about to take place. A large crowd of people had gathered along the way, for it was unheard of that a 12 year old boy should challenge the court pandita and everyone wanted to catch a glimpse of the wonderful child. The brahmanas, many of whom had already been defeated by Kolahala, offered him blessings, saying "May you defeat this insolent pandita, just as Visnu in the form of a dwarf brahmana displaced Bali Maharaja, the king of the asuras". Meanwhile, in the royal court a difference of opinion arose between the king and queen about Yamunacharya. The king said, "Just as a cat plays with a mouse, so will Kolahala defeat and destroy the boy." But the queen was more thoughtful, realizing that Yamunacharya was no ordinary child. "Just as a small spark," she said, "can turn a mountain of cloth to ashes, so will this boy destroy the mountain-like pride of Kolahala." "How can you really believe that this is possible?" exclaimed the king in amazement. "If you truly have faith in the child, then you must make a wager to back your words." "Very well," replied the queen, "I will make a wager. If the boy does not defeat and humble the proud Kolahala, I will become the servant of your maidservant." "This is certainly a mighty wager," said the king, "but I will match it. If the boy defeats Kolahala, as you say, then I will give him half of my kingdom." While the king and queen were thus exchanging wagers, the palanquin arrived and Yamunacharya entered the palace. When Kolahala saw him, he looked at the queen and smiled sarcastically. "Alabandara," he said, meaning, "Is this the boy who will conquer me?" "Yes" replied the queen quietly, "Ala-bandara. This is he who has come to conquer you." The Contest When the contestants were seated, Kolahala began the debate by putting simple questions on Sanskrit grammar to Yamunacharya. When, however, he found the boy could answer them with ease, he began to pose really difficult grammatical problems; but still, Yamunacharya replied to them all without difficulty. He then spoke to the great pandita with a playful smile on his lips. "Because I am just a boy, you are insulting me by asking these simple questions. Remember that Astavakra was no older than myself when he defeated Bandi at the court of King Janaka. If you judge a person's learning by his size, then surely it follows that the water buffalo will be a greater scholar than yourself." Although Kolahala winced at these words, he controlled his anger and replied smilingly, "Well answered. Now it is your turn to put questions to me." "Very well" Yamunacharya responded, "I will put three propositions before you, and, if you can refute them, I shall accept defeat." Kolahala agreed and prepared to refute Yamunacharya's statements. "My first proposition is this" Yamunacharya spoke out clearly and boldly, "that your mother is not a barren woman. Refute this if you can." Hearing this, Kolahala remained silent. "Had my mother been barren, my birth would not have been possible" he thought. "How can I refute this statement" Seeing Kolahala as silent as a dumb man, all the courtiers were astonished. Although the great pandita tried to conceal his anxiety, he could not prevent a flush from crossing his cheeks. Yamunacharya spoke again, "Sir, if in spite of your all-conquering intelligence you are unable to refute my first proposition, then please hear my seond. It is this, that the Pandya king is supremely righteous. Refute this if you can." On hearing this Kolahala, was deeply disturbed, sensing his imminent defeat. With the king seated there in front of him, how could he deny the boy's statement? Again he remained silent, the color draining from his face as he was scarcely able to control his anger. Yamunacharya spoke again, "Here is my third proposition - that the queen of the Pandya king is as chaste and faithful to her husband as was Savitri. Refute this if you can." Seeing how he had once again been trapped by the intelligent boy, Kolahala could no longer restrain his anger. "You rascal" he screamed, "how can any loyal subject say that his king is unrighteous or his queen unfaithful to her husband? It is true I have not replied to your statements, but that does not mean I am defeated. First you must refute your own propositions, and, if you cannot, you should be put to death, for the implications of you words are treason against your king and queen." When Kolahala shouted out these words, all his disciples and supporters cheered; but all those who favored Yamunacharya cried, "No, Kolahala is defeated. He is simply letting forth his anger, because he could not refute the statements of Yamunacharya as he promised to do". Thus an argument broke out in the palace, but in the midst of the contention Yamunacharya quieted them all by saying, "Please stop this argument, for it is unnecessary. I shall refute all my propositions one by one. Please hear me." At this everyone fell silent and turned their attention to Yamunacharya, wondering how he could possibly do this and yet not offend the king and queen. "My first statement" he continued,"was that our great pandita's mother was not a barren woman. However, it is stated in the Manu-samhita that a woman who has only one child is to be considered barren. As your mother gave birth to only one son, even though he is a man of such merit as yourself, according to the sastra, she must be considered barren. Secondly, I stated that the king of the Pandyas is a most righteous man. However, the Manu-samhita states that a king enjoys the benefit of one sixth of the religious acts of his subjects, but also has to bear the burden of one sixth of their sinful deeds. Because in the present age of Kali men are more prone toward sinfulness than piety, it must follow that our king, although flawless in his own character, is bearing a heavy burden of unrighteousness. And now to my third proposition, which stated that our queen is as chaste and faithful as was Savitri. But again, if we consult the laws of Manu, it is said that the king is the representative of Agni, Vayu, Surya, Chandra, Yama, Kuvera, Varuna, and Indra. Therefore, the queen is married not to just one man, but to these eight demigods as well. So how can it be said that she is chaste?" On hearing these wonderful answers, all the people were filled with amazement, and the queen joyfully cried out, "Ala-bandara! Ala-bandara! He has conquered! He has conquered!" The king immediately came forward and embraced Yamunacharya. "Just as on the rising of the sun" he said, "all the insignificant stars fade away, so you, O learned Alabandara, have conquered the proud Kolahala by your learning and skill. This fellow just a short while ago was demanding your death, now you may deal with him as you see fit. I have also promised to give you half my kingdom as a prize for this victory, and that promise I will certainly fulfill." Of course, Yamunacharya forgave Kolahala, and, although he was but a boy of 12 years, he began at once to rule the kingdom he had won. Thus his days of poverty were over. ********************************************* All glories to Alabandara. Gauracandra

Continuing with excerpts from the book by H. Subba Rao.... ********************************************* Sankara's contention that a second entity's existence is a limitation to the perfection of God is wrong. The extensions of space is not limited by the numerous worlds that live in space. So also Brahman lives every where in and through all things and there is no entity that can exist without His support from within. But He lives in Himself without needing anything to support Him or to help Him: 'Sa Bhagavan Kasmin Pratisthitah! Sve Mahimneeti hovaca'. (With what as support does the Lord exist? The Guru said, He exists on the support of His own glory). It is true that Brahman is related to the world while supporting the world. Lord Krishna says that by His relation with the world, no Dharma Sankranti or transference of energy or loss of nature by contact with another being takes place. If A and B are related, part of A does not pass into B, neither any part of B enters into A. Where such transference takes place, there the question of limitation arises. But in the case of Brahman, the example given is space; 'Akasavat Sarvagatasca nitya' (Like Space God is always extended as Antaryamin in all things and is also eternal.) He is also Nirvikara like space; so by the world's co-existence with Him God's perfection is not affected in any way. The mere existence of a second world cannot be a limitation to Brahman. Just where the world lives and moves, Brahman also lives an moves unobstructed. Air and light occupy the same point of space. So Brahman and the world live together without one pushing the other to a distance. He is a subtle or apratigha dravya. ********************************************* Gauracandra

I thought I'd post a few passages from an interesting book called "The Strength of Madhvaism". It was written by H. Subba Rao and published I believe in 1979. ********************************************* The next question is, "Is God a real Being? If so how can we know Him?" By definition God is a perfect Being. The conception of God implies perfection. An imperfect God is a contradiction in terms. Some scholars argue that these questions are futile; for if God had existed, He would be known by one of the two methods mentioned above. The answer is, that this is a shameless attitude to adopt by one who knows Sri Madhva and his followers. It is 'Koopa mandooka drsti', narrow view to ignore a part of experience and content ourselves with only knowing a small part of sensible experience. Mystical experience is another source of knowledge. Mysticism is the direct apprehension of even super-sensible reality by the power of yogic insight. Yoga is spiritual power of the well disciplined mind sharpened by following the path of Sravana, Manana and Dhyana as inculcated by the Vedas which are the eternal gazetter of the eternal Government of God, handed down to seekers of truth in our "Sadhana Bhoomi" by Mantra Drashtra seers of the infinite past. [Note: Now I'm jumping to another section with regard to mysticism] Most mysticism is moonshine. In order to be able to escape from being imposed upon by Tamasa and quasi-mystics of magic power and demon-strength, we must keep in mind these three laws of mystic-experience. (i) Full fledged mystical experience is clear and undeluded visualisation of some Bimba form of God Narayana in the Lotus of the heart and not meer Tamasa Mantra Shakti or even Rajasa or Satwika power of spell, born of lower Sadhanas or practices as sacrifices, mantra-repetition, fasting before deities or saints etc.... (ii) Secondly, the upadesha or remarks of one mystic are capable of verification by other mystics. Mystics are all consistently truthful though the sayings of some of them are ambiguous at times. They are masters of siddis (Anima etc. stated above) in proportion to their ability in Taratamya. They are unequalled in their capacity for renunciation of material riches; and they have power of Anugraha and Sapa (blessing and cursing) and prophecy also. For example, Sri Madhva has prophesied that Sri Vishnu teetha will return to the world of men in a future time to reform the Madhva people of the times and that the Lord's Consort, Durga will manifest Herself in the near future; (iii) Thirdly, they have capacity invariably to impart their mystic realisation and Sastraik knowledge to one or a few of their devotees and lend proof to strengthen the knowledge of validity of the Vedas and of Madhva Sastra in these times. ********************************************* I will post other portions later. Gauracandra

Indiadivine allows a sort of cyber-association among people interested in spiritual matters. While philosophically we may not always agree, I have found the discussions on these forums very cordial and informative. I have found that the Internet in general is very quarrelsome (typical of Kali Yuga). Technology is neither good nor bad. Its the people who use it that are. I like the fact that Indiadivine brings together people with relatively common interests from all over the world together. Thats whats fascinating to me. Even a few years ago this could never have been done. Now Melvin, Viji, Shvu etc.... can all connect from all of the different points of the world. Haribol. Gauracandra

Very interesting.... I have also heard of a tradition by some Native Americans (American Indians) with relation to killing animals. Traditionally, when they would kill a Buffalo for instance, part of the ceremony would be to whisper in its ear something to the effect of "Today I am killing you for food, but in your next life you may kill me". Several points on this. First, it brings up the idea of karma and reincarnation. I have also heard of a similar Vedic procedure that allowed eating meat. If someone couldn't control their tongue and had to eat meat they were allowed to eat goat meat (or something similar but never cow). They would perform various rituals and before slaughtering the animal they would whisper the sanskrit word for meat, which I can't remember but is basically composed of two words "you" and "me". The significance is that "I am killing YOU, and you may kill ME". It would be very interesting to note how many points of similarity there are in various cultures. For instance, it is an established fact that Sanskrit in the root of the Indo-European languages. I took several years of Russian in college and studied a bit of Sanskrit, and you wouldn't believe how many words are EXACTLY the same. My Russian teacher confirmed that Sanskrit had a big influence on Russian. I have also seen studies that compare english, spanish words etc... to Sanskrit and the commanlities in words are very striking. Gauracandra

Does anyone have any information on the relationship between ancient Egypt and the Vedic culture? The reason I ask this is because of a program I was watching on the History Channel regarding ancient Egypt. At one point they described the Egyptian story of creation and I could hardly believe my ears because everything they said was almost exactly the Vedic version. In the Egyptian story, a golden lotus grows out of the cosmic ocean and reaches to the top on the universe. At this point it unfolds and thus is born the sun god. Now substitute the sun god for Brahma and it matches perfectly. I had never heard of the Egyptian creation story but this really got me interested in how Vedic culture influenced ancient Egypt. Any info would be appreciated. Gauracandra

I guess I'll chime in briefly on this topic. I don't know the sastric evidence for or against attaining the abode of Krsna without a guru. However, I would think that without a guru it would be MUCH harder. It was mentioned that a guru is basically a guide and can come in the form of a person or a book. But consider this analogy for a moment. At present, thousands of athletes from around the world are competing in Australia in the Olympics. Every one, I am confident, has had a coach to train them, discipline them, and make them the best in the world. Those who are being trained by the coach can avoid mistakes that others in the past have made. Now I for one can swim. But I don't think that even if I studied all the right books, on swimming technique, diet, etc... That I would be able to compete against these world class athletes. Plus I doubt that I would have the stamina, or mental resolve to stick to my "sadhana" day in and day out, atleast in the early stages. The coach keeps you on track to avoid being whimsical. When an athlete wishes to "get serious" and "up" his performance from being standard to being world class he/she will inevitably seek out the best expert in the field. Given our limited lifespan (avg. 75 years on this planet) I think it would be best to find someone who has already seen the mistakes that can be made and to learn from them. It is true that we have many lives in which to attain spiritual perfection. But I think without a guide we will often stray here and there, both on and off the path, wandering in the dark. There is a famous and inspiring example of the "guru-disciple" relationship in American culture. There was a woman named Helen Keller who was born both blind and deaf. She could not communicate to anyone and was a hazard to herself and others. Then one day a woman came into her life and trained her. It was extremely difficult as you can imagine. This was a woman who couldn't see or hear and had a real anger in her. But amazingly enough, after many years, this blind and deaf woman, learned to communicate and became a very productive citizen. Its been a while since I've read the story of Hellen Keller. I'm sure you can find plenty of information on her on the Internet. So I think we are kind of like blind and deaf people. Perhaps "theoretically" Helen could have taught herself to communicate, after many attempts, but that would have taken her more than her lifetime to achieve. Another example, in the same vein, is a friend of mine. He studied under a "guru" for 10-15 years to learn Karnatic music. I seriously doubt that someone simply reading a book, and now days listening to some tapes, could become as expert in Karnatic music as my friend. Anyways, these are my thoughts. Gauracandra

There is a very nice video tape series called "Memories of Prabhupada" which is basically a compilation of many devotee's memories/thoughts of Srila Prabhupada. On number 27 Shyamasundar tells of how Prabhupada once told him that (and this is paraphrasing of course) "The more one has faith in Krsna, the bigger risks one will take for Krsna. And because one does this, Krsna must, HE HAS NO CHOICE, help his devotee. Krsna will personally come down to help his devotee. He is bound by the love of his devotee." Now suppose Krsna made everything real easy. In this scenario, Prabhupada gets on board a private Lear jet, flys to America. Is given a beautiful house in which to stay. He only associates with the "upper crust" of society. And within a few years Vaisnavism is a major religion in America, with converts from Beverly Hills to the White House. Now is that very inspiring? To me not really. It is the struggles we encounter in our lives that strengthen our love for Krsna. By seeing the risks, real risks, that Prabhupada endured it gives us faith, and perhaps strengthens our resolve to take our minor risks. All of the great saints have taken risks. At times, based on our limited vision of God's ultimate plan, we may misunderstand the circumstances. However, this risk is necessary to truly love God. The pain endured due to separation from God simply makes the union all the more sweet. Gauracandra

Continuing with excerpts from Sri Caitanya-siksamrta published in 1886 by Srila Saccidananda Bhaktivinode Thakura ********************************************* According to his condition man attempts to please the Lord for four reasons: 1) Bhaya - out of fear 2) Asa - for satisfying material aspirations 3) Kartavya-buddhi - out of a sense of duty 4) Raga - out of genuine attraction to the Lord. Persons who worship the Lord out of stimulation of fear, bhaya, include those who are afraid of hell, poverty, pain, and death. Persons who worship the Lord to satisfy their material aspirations, asa, worship and pray with great intensity for material happiness and for the gain of greater material advancement. There is so much pure joy in the process of isvara-sadhana, worship of the Lord, that although beginning their worship out of motivations of fear or desiring material aspirations, many eventually give up such motivated worship and become attached to suddha-bhajana, pure worship of the Lord. Then there are those who have begun to worship the Lord with feelings of gratitude arisen from conceiving of Him as God the creator. Their mode of worship is known as kartavya-buddhi. Although not impelled by bhaya, asa or kartavya-buddhi, those who approach the Lord with natural affection begin to worship Him in raga. Simply by seeing a particular object, one's heart instinctively runs after it without any consideration. One in whose heart attraction spontaneously arises as soon as he thinks of the Lord is worshipping according to raga. Those who take to worship of the Lord out of bhaya, asa, or kartavya-buddhi are not on such a pure level. Those who worship the Lord according to raga are real worshippers. The living entity and the Lord have a deep relationship. When raga appears, this relationship becomes visible. The relationship is eternal, no doubt, but for the materially bound-up jiva (soul) it remains hidden. Given the right opportunity, it apears. Just as fire appears when you strike a match or a flint, by sadhana, practice, this relationship makes its appearance. ********************************************* Gauracandra

The following is an excerpt from Sri Caitanya-siksamrta by Srila Saccidananda Bhaktivinode Thakura. I will not post the entire article due to its very long length. However, I will post some nice portions from the article (though not necessarily in chronological order). This article was first published in 1886. ********************************************* People in various countries on various continents have a wide variety of natures. Although their principle nature is only one, their secondary characteristics are many - you will not find any two people in the world who have identical secondary qualities. Since even twins born of the same womb have some difference in form and quality, can one expect that people born in different countries can ever have exactly the same qualities? Different countries have different water, air, mountains, forests, and different eatables and clothing. Because of this, the people of these places have naturally developed different physiques, complexions, customs, clothing and food. Similary, peoples mentalities differ. Thus various people's ideas of God, though being basically similar, will differ in secondary details. When men in different places surpass the uncivilized stage, they then step by step come to the civilized stage, then the inquisitive stage, the moral stage and finally the devotional stage. In the civilized stage differences will arise in language, in the inquisitive stage differences in dress, in the moral stage differences in food, and in the devotional stage differences in mentality. This gives rise to differences in the mode of worship of God. Considered objectively, there is no harm in secondary differences. If there is an agreement concerning the essential nature of God and his worship, there should be no obstacle in attaining the same result. Thus Mahaprabhu has taught that we should instruct everyone to worship the pure form of the Lord, but at the same time we should not criticize others's modes of worship. Because of the above reasons, we see the following differences amongst the religions of different countries: 1) Difference in teachers 2) Difference in the worshipper's mentality and consequent expression of reverence 3) Difference in the method of worship 4) Difference in the conceptions and conventional actions concerning the object of worship 5) Differences in God's names and teachings due to linguistic differences [Note: I have cut out a lengthy explanation of each of these 5 points] Because of these five differences it is only natural that various religions will appear quite different. However, it is improper and detrimental to argue over these differences. If one goes to visit someone else's place of worship, while there one should think, "These people are worshipping my Lord, but in a different way. Because of my different practices I cannot quite enter into this system of worship. However, through this experience I can deepen my appreciation for my own system of worship. The Lord is only one, not two. I offer my respect to the form I see here and pray to the Lord in this new form that he increase my love for the form I am accustomed to." Those who do not follow this procedure but instead criticize other systems of worship and show hatred, violence and envy, are worthless and foolish. In proportion to their lack of interest in the Lord to that degree they have affection for useless arguments. ********************************************* Gauracandra

Perhaps...Though I'm not sure the word arbitrary is necessarily the most apt word. Most religions I think try to give some sort of a regulative environment in which to develop devotion to God. At times people may not see why various rituals occur... but outside the rituals people will often become whimsical and in this stage I think it is the people who become arbitrary and not the religious institutions. Here is an example of what I mean. Before we eat, a religious regulative principle may be to pray. This shows a reverence towards God, and gives the individual a chance to feel a certain connection to God. Now it could be argued that if a person naturally feels reverence to God, and when presented with food has a natural feeling of thanks, that he doesn't need to pray. And there probably are some individuals like this. Now suppose we decide that praying before we eat is too old fashioned. We're modern and lead a fast paced life. So we say "If you feel like praying, go right ahead, if not God knows your thankful". This becomes arbitrary. Pretty soon no one will pray. They'll say "I don't need to pray". But we don't pray for God's sake. We pray to feel a sense of connection, and gravity. It is a chance for us to take time out of our hectic schedule and feel a sort of reverence in our life. The same could be said of the Sabbath for Christians. The regulative principle is to set aside one day of the week to feel this reverence. Now we could say "Why Sunday? I feel like taking Tuesday off to worship God" But will we really take Tuesday off? Not likely. In some sense, Sunday is an arbitrary day. But it is not for God's sake that we take Sunday off but our own. We want a sense of community and a feeling of connecting to something bigger than we are. Now it is true that religion often becomes distorted and used to manipulate people. But that is not true religion. In the Vaisnava tradition we believe this is Kali Yuga - the age of quarrel and hypocrisy. And this hypocrisy can infect any religion. So the goal should be to lead a regulated life, and to search for the essense of the religion. If you look at the essense of what Jesus Christ says its beautiful. If on the other hand you listen to Jerry Falwell you are likely to get a distorted view, Christ's teachings through a prism of various political, social, and economic factors. Still, many if not most people are sincere in their practices. I'm thinking about posting a very good article by Srila Saccidananda Bhaktivinode Thakura called "Stages and Varieties of Faith". It is quite long so perhaps I'll only quote a number of sections. This article is related to your point. Gauracandra

The following is from the book "The Embankment of Separation" in a section called "A Life of Devotion". There is no particular reason I am posting this today, other than for the pleasure of the Vaisnavas. ********************************************* On February 9th, 1996, the holy appearance day of Srila Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati, two senior devotees requested an appointment to see Srila Gaur Govinda Swami. They had never spoken with him before, but they had become eager to hear from him after reading some of his books. As if by providential arrangement, they entered his room at 6.00 p.m. and submissively inquired, "Why did Caitanya Mahaprabhu stay in Jagannatha Puri?" He laughed with delight and began to explain the confidential significance of Mahaprabhu's pastimes. In anser to this question he lovingly described the pain of separation felt by Radha and Krsna when Krsna was away from Vrndavana. He had often narrated this moving pastime as recorded in Chapter Eight of this great work, "The Embankment of Separation". Enchanting all the devotees in his room with the nectarean topics of Krsna, he gradually unfolded the pastime to the point where Radha and Krsna were finally united after Their long separation. He described how Krsna became so ecstatic upon seeing Radharani that He manifested a form with big round eyes, known as Lord Jagannatha. With a choked voice he said, "Then the eyes of Krsna fell upon the eyes of Radharani. Eye-to-Eye union." Overwhelmed with love for Radha and Krsna, he apologized with folded hands, "Please excuse me, I cannot speak". In a barely audible voice he gave his final instruction: "Nama Koro! Nama Koro! (Chant the holy name)" All the devotees began to chant as their spiritual master lay back on his bed, breathing very slowly and deeply. A servant nearby placed a picture of Gopal Jiu [his childhood deity] in his hand. Then, gazing lovingly at the picture of his worshipable deity, Srila Gaur Govinda Swami called out, "Gopal!" and departed for the spiritual sky to be united with his beloved Lord. Every day before Srimad-Bhagavatam class, Srila Gaur Govinda Swami would sing a song he had learned as a boy. Now his prayer was fulfilled. paramananda he madhava padungaluchi makaranda se-makaranda pana-kari anande bolo 'hari hari' harinka name vandha vela pari karive caka-dola se-caka-dolanka-payare mana-mo rahu nirantare mana mo nirantare rahu 'ha-krsna' boli jiva jau 'ha-krsna' boli jau jiva mote udhara radha-dhava mote udhara radha-dhava mote udhara radha-dhava "O supremely blissful Madhava! The nectar is coming from Your lotus feet. Drinking that nectar, I blissfully sing 'Hari! Hari!' With the name of Hari I am binding a raft on which Lord Jagannatha will ferry me across this ocean of material existence. My mind always remains at the lotus feet of that Lord Jagannatha who has very large round eyes. In this way, I call out "Ha Krsna!" and give up my life. O husband of Radharani, please deliver me." The sadhu never speaks theoretically. ********************************************* If only we could all have such a passing. Haribol. Gauracandra

The following is a short story given by Srila Gaur Govinda Maharaj in his book "Sadhu-sanga, the Birthplace of Bhakti". ********************************************* There is a story. There was a blind man who once wanted to know, "What is the color of the milk?" He asked one of his trusted friends. "Oh my friend. Can you tell me what is the color of the milk?" His friend replied, "Oh, it is plain.Plain? What is plain?" Then his friend said, "It is like a crane.Like a crane? What is that - crane?" He is a blind man. Then the friend raised the upper-portion of his hand. He bent the topmost portion and held it before the blind man. So the blind man touched it and remained silent for one moment. "Oh now I understand what is the color of the milk! I will never drink milk in my life. It will get stuck in my throat." This is how he understands the color of the milk. He is a blind man. Those who have not received the mercy of sadhu-guru - that means they have not received the mercy of Krsna - they are blind man. Those who try to understand Krsna by dint of their material knowledge, learning, merit or intelligence, are very puffed-up persons. They are like a sort of blind man. Their understanding of Krsna is like that of the blind man's understanding the color of milk. ********************************************* Everything I have read by and about Srila Gaur Govinda Maharaj indicate to me that he was a pure Vaisnava. He returned to Krsna back in 1996. He personally never wrote any books, but rather spent all of his time translating Srila Prabhupada's books into Oriya. But his disciples have published a number of his lectures in book form. One of the things that makes this story so funny to me are the pictures of Srila Gaur Govinda Maharaja as he tells it. Very few people could tell this story and really get away with its humor because it is so simple hearted. And when you see the pictures you get the sense of an almost childlike innocence in telling the story. Everything I have read from him is just simple hearted, with complete humility and love for Krsna. Haribol. Gauracandra

The following is another poem called "Prayer to the Lotus Feet of Krsna" written by Srila Prabhupada on boad the ship Jaladuta, September 13, 1965. For this one I'll only type in the translation without the Bengali verses. Prayer to the Lotus Feet of Krsna I emphatically say to you, O brothers, you will obtain your good fortune from the Supreme Lord Krsna only when Srimati Radharani becomes pleased with you. Sri Srimad Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur, who is very dear to Lord Gauranga, the son of mother Saci, is unparalled in his service to the Supreme Lord Sri Krsna. He is that great saintly spiritual master who bestows intense devotion to Krsna at different places throughout the world. By his strong desire, the holy name of Lord Gauranga will spread throughout all the countries of the Western world. In all the cities, towns, and villages on the earth, from all the oceans, seas, rivers, and streams, everyone will chant the holy name of Krsna. As the vast mercy of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu conquers all directions, a flood of transcendental ecstasy will certainly cover the land. When all the sinful, miserable living entities become happy, the Vaisnavas's desire is then fulfilled. Although my Guru Maharaja ordered me to accomplish this mission, I am not worthy or fit to do it. I am very fallen and insignificant. Therefore, O Lord, now I am begging for Your mercy so that I may become worthy, for You are the wisest and most experienced of all. If You bestow Your power, by serving the spiritual master one attains the Absolute Truth -one's life becomes successful. If that service is obtained, then one becomes happy and gets Your association due to good fortune. My dear Lord, O Supreme Personality of Godhead, because of my association with material desires, one after another, I was gradually falling into a blind well full of snakes, following the general populace. But Your servant Narada Muni kindly accepted me as his disciple and instructed me how to achieve this transcendental position. Therefore, my first duty is to serve him. How could I leave his service? (Prahlada Maharaja to Lord Nrsimhadeva, Bhag. 7.9.28) O Lord Krsna, You are my eternal companion. Forgetting You, I have suffered the kicks of maya birth after birth. If today the chance to meet You occurs again, then I will surely be able to rejoin You.[Note: Srila Prabhupada suffered several heart attacks during his journey on board the Jaladuta] O dear friend, in Your company I experience great joy once again. In the early morning I will wonder the cowherd pastures and fields. Running and frolicking in the many forests of Vraja, I will roll on the ground in spiritual ecstasy. Oh when will that day be mine? Today that remembrance of You came to me in a very nice way. Because I have a great longing I called to You. I am Your eternal servant and therefore I desire Your association so much. O Lord Krsna, except for You there is no other means of success.

I've been meaning to make a post regarding Srila Prabhupada's appearance day. As many of you may know (or may not know) Srila Prabhupada was born in 1896 on Janmashtami day. I had meant to make this posting on Janmashtami but couldn't locate the poem I wish to reproduce for the readers at Indiadivine.com. Sometimes I think it is very easy to assume that everything that was done by Srila Prabhupada was meant to be and thus was of no real struggle - though indeed it was. In 1965 Srila Prabhupada, a renounced monk living at the Radha-Damodhar temple in Vrindavan, crossed the ocean, in a cargo ship, on the orders of his guru (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur). He was approaching 70 years of age and carried with him 3 volumes of Srimad Bhagavatam (which he translated), a small suitcase, an umbrella, and a bag of dry cereal. Why would he do this? In the 1960s many Indian gurus were coming to America. But for the most part they went to Beverly Hills, or upstate New York to advise the wealthy. I'm not criticizing this. But it should be noted where Srila Prabhupada went. Alone, in a foreign country, he went to the core of American social decline - skid row, where the homeless and the drug addicted were. People of very low quality, taking drugs, engaging in illicit sexual activity, smoking, eating meat. This certainly wasn't Beverly Hills at all. He could have easily stayed in Vrindavan, worship Krsna, and lived a peaceful life. Why did he risk so much? The poem below I think will shed some insight into his thinking. After reading this poem, I could only conclude that he was the personification of Sri Caitanya's Siksastakam. He was so humble that he was willing to associate with the most degraded. He had firm faith in the Holy Name of Hari, knowing that it would cleanse even the most degraded. With the introduction I present to you: Markine Bhagavata-Dharma by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, at Boston Harbor, September 18, 1965 baro-krpa kaile krsna adhamer prati ki lagiyanile hetha koro ebe gati My dear Lord Krsna, You are so kind upon this useless soul, but I do not know why You have brought me here. Now You can do whatever You like with me. ache kichu karja taba ei anumane nahe keno aniben ei ugra-stane But I guess You have some business here, otherwise why would You bring me to this terrible place? rajos tamos gune era sabai acchanna basudeb-katha ruci nahe se prasanna Most of the population here is covered by the material modes of ignorance and passion. Absorbed in material life, they think themselves very happy and satisfied, and therefore they have no taste for the transcendental message of Vasudeva. I do not know how they will be able to undertand it. tabe jadi taba krpa hoy ahaituki sakal-i sambhava hoy tumi se kautuki But I know Your causeless mercy can make everything possible because You are the most expert mystic. ki bhave bujhale tara bujhe sei rasa eta krpa koro prabhu kori nija-basa How will they understand the mellows of devotional service? O Lord, I am simply praying for Your mercy so that I will be able to convince them about Your message. tomara icchaya saba hoy maya-basa tomara icchaya nasa mayar parasa All living entities have become under the control of the illusory energy by Your will, and therefore, if You like, by Your will they can also be release from the clutches of illusion. taba iccha hoy jadi tadera uddhar bujhibe niscai tabe katha se tomar I with that You may deliver them. Therefore if You so desire their deliverance, then only will they be able to understand Your message. bhagavater katha se taba avatar dhira haiya sune jadi kane bar bar The words of Srimad Bhagavatam are Your incarnation, and if a sober person repeatedly receives it with submissive aural reception, then he will be able to understand Your message. It is said in the Srimad Bhagavatam (1.2.17-21): srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah punya-sravana kirtanah hrdy antah-stho hy abhadrani vidhunoti suhrt satam nasta-prayesv abhadresu nityam bhagavata-sevaya bhagavaty uttama-sloke bhaktir bhavati naisthiki tada rajas-tamo-bhavah kama-lobhadayas ca ye ceta etair anaviddham sthitam sattve prasidati evam prasanna-manaso bhagavad-bhakti-yogatah bhagavat-tattva-vijnanam mukta-sangasya jayate bhidyate hrdaya-granthis chidyante sarva-samsayah ksiyante casya karmani drsta evatmanisvare "Sri Krsna, the Personality of Godhead, who is the Paramatma [supersoul] in everyone's heart and the benefactor of the truthful devotee, cleanses desire for material enjoyment from the heart of the devotee who has developed the urge to hear His messages, which are in themselves virtuous when properly heard and chanted. By regular attendance in classes on the Bhagavatam and by rendering of service to the pure devotee, all that is troublesome to the heart is almost completely destroyed, and loving service unto the Personality of Godhead, who is praised with transcendental songs, is established as an irrevocable fact. As soon as irrevocable loving service is established in the heart, the effects of nature's modes of passion and ignorance, such as lust, desire and hankering, disappear from the heart. Then the devotee is established in goodness, and he becomes completely happy. Thus established in the mode of unalloyed goodness, the man whose mind has been enlivend by contact with devotional service to the Lord gains positive scientific knowledge of the Personality of Godhead in the stage of liberation from all material association. Thus the know in the heart is pierced, and all misgivings are cut to pieces. The chain of fruitive actions is terminated when one sees the self as master" rajas tamo hate tabe paibe nistar hrdayer abhadra sab ghucibe tahar He will become liberated from the influence of the modes of ignorance and passion and thus all inauspicious things accumulated in the core of the heart will disappear. ki ko're bujhabo katha baro sei cahi khudra ami dina hina kono sakti nahi How will I make them understand this message of Krsna consciousness? I am very unfortunate, unqualified and the most fallen. Therefore I am seeking Your benediction so that I can convince them, for I am powerless to do so on my own. athaca enecho prabhu katha bolibare je tomar iccha prabhu koro ei bare Somehow or other, O Lord, You have brought me here to speak about You. Now, my Lord, it is up to You to make me a success or failure as You like. akhila jagat-guru! bacana se amar alankrta koribar khamata tomar O spiritual master of all the worlds! I can simply repeat Your message, so if You like You can make my power of speaking suitable for their understanding. taba krpa ha'le mor katha suddha habe suniya sabara soka duhkha je ghucibe Only by Your causeless mercy will my words become pure. I am sure that when this transcendental message penetrates their hearts they will certainly feel engladdened and thus become liberated from all unhappy conditions of life. aniyacho jadi prabhu amare nacate nacao nacao prabhu naca se-mate kasthera puttali jatha nacao se-mate O Lord, I am just like a puppet in Your hands. So if You have brought me here to dance, then make me dance, make me dance, O Lord, make me dance as You like. bhakti nai beda nai name khub daro "bhaktivedanta" nam ebe sarthak koro I have no devotion, nor do I have any knowledge, but I have strong faith in the holy name of Krsna. I have been designated as Bhaktivedanta (Devotion with Knowledge), and now, if You like, You can fulfill the real purport of Bhaktivedanta. Signed - the most unfortunate, insignificant beggar. A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, on board the ship Jaladuta, Commonwealth Pier, Boston, Massachusetts, U.S.A. dated 18th of September, 1965

Happy Janmashtami!!! There is a famous poem by John Keats called "Ode to a Grecian Urn". One line in the poem is "Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty". I never thought about it before, but last night when the altar doors opened at midnight for the celebration of Janmashtami, this line really made sense. Artists like Michaelangelo have engaged in mental speculation when it comes to the Lord. They imagine that God must be an old man, with gray hair, and a long white beard. But last night this line from Keats poem fit perfectly. Beauty is truth, truth beauty. God is the supreme truth. Thus intuitively doesn't it make sense that God would be supremely beautiful? And isn't that what Krsna means? - "One who is all attractive". When the altar door opened, there stood Krsna with his girlfriend (or you could say Radha with her boyfriend). A beautiful smile, gentle eyes, decorated from head to toe in all manner of colorful flowers. At midnight this morning, as the devotees held ecstatic kirtan, Radha-Govinda were just gorgeous. Beauty is truth, truth beauty. Hare Krsna. Gauracandra

I just downloaded the Say It 2000 program. First you need to install the program by running the si_setup.exe file. Basically what will pop up will be a small bar with various instructions on it. If you click "Say it", it will read the pre-programmed message. You must have speakers, sound card etc... to hear it though. To change the message click on the little icon on the bar that looks like a folder (it is four spaces from the left to the right). By clicking on this you will be able to edit its notepad and put in any message you want your computer to say. Type in a new message and click "Say It" and it will. Gauracandra

I found a website that was created by a devotee computer programmer. It is located at www.govindaware.com . It has a number of software programs designed by this devotee including a nice little video game called "Search for Sita". Its not a real sophisticated game but it is nice that someone went through the effort to make a devotional game. Its about 2MB and basically you play Hanuman trying to bring Rama's ring to Mother Sita as you go through various mazes of Ravana's castle. Its free to download if you are interested. Gauracandra

No offense, but I think it is important that we not take our religion to an extreme and try to find how EVERYTHING connects into it in some way. This will just cause us to lose credibility. There is a Christian religious group in the U.S. called Christian Scientists. They do not believe in the use of ANY medicine. Instead, they say all disease can be solved with prayer. So when one of their children gets ill, rather than taking them to a hospital, they sit around and pray. The idea is that if God wants, then God will cure the disease. Inevitably there are deaths that result. They will even refuse antibiotics, blood transfusion etc... Any sort of medical help. While Harinam will cure our ultimate disease (material bondage) we should still be good stewards of this body that God has given us. I even say this with regard to Ayurvedic and Holistic medicine. They may be good for fine tuning, or as preventative medicine, but when you have a disease we should be practical. I hope I haven't offended you but I do think you may be getting a bit carried away in trying to make these links between diseases. Gauracandra

I personally am unable to answer your question as I don't understand all of the intricacies involved. Different schools have different thoughts on this issue. However, I was recently reading a beautiful publication called "Sri Krsna-Kathamrta" which is published by the disciples of Srila Gaur Govinda Swami. This particular issue describes the various kinds of relationships the soul can have with the Lord. He mentions that those who view the Lord in awe and reverence worship Visnu, while those that disregard the Lords opulence and worship him with spontaneous love, see him as Govinda. I wish this publication were online so you can read the whole thing. The following are a few excerpts: "Philosphically there is no difference between Rama and Krsna. Krsna has many forms: Avatara hy asankhyena Hareh sattva-nidher dvijah athavidasinah kulyah sarasah syuh sahasrasah The incarnations of the Lord are innumerable, like rivulets flowing from inexhausible sources of water. In Brahma-samhita it is said, Diparcir eva hi dasantaram abhyupetya Dipayate vivrta-hetu-samana-dharma yas tadrg eva hi ca visnutaya vibhati govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami There is only one original lamp, from that original lamp many other lamps are coming and giving the same light. There is no difference between them. Similarly, there is no difference between avatara and avatari. Krsna is the one original lamp, mula-dipa-eka, and His avataras are asankhya, innumerable. Krsna is avatari, the source of all incarnations. Ramadi-murtisu kala-niyamena tisthan Nanavataram akarod bhuvanesu kintu Krsnah svayam samabhavat paramah puman yo Govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami I worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Govinda, who is always situated in various incarnations such as Rama, Nrsimha and also many sub-incarnations, but who is the original personality of Godhead known as Krsna, who also incarnates personally." I don't know if I fully answered your question. I know I read recently a sanskrit verse that says that in His original form God (Krsna) has two hands like a man (as opposed to four like Visnu). This would indicate to me that Visnu is an expansion of Krsna. I searched around but couldn't find where I had read that verse. Again, different schools will have different interpretations. Gauracandra