andy108

Gee, how kind of you to pick my points out of context and line them up so it looks like I am a confused contradictory hypocrite. Does that make you feel better about your own impotence?

I just figured if enough people like me, and others would expose these creeps, it might wake up some insiders with some clout, generate some public scorn and activism, inspire the cheated to take back their manhood, or some combination of factors which would lead to a coup at at least ONE temple, and maybe those people would contact those who were able to see through the charade and articulate the truth and ask them if they wanted to be part of the new program. That would be nice. I am no Srila Prabhupada. There is no ignorant untouched western world where I can wander to, sit beneath a tree chanting, and potentially instruct others with my unparalleled lexicon of Gaudiya scriptural knowledge, artistic and culinary abililties, business acumen, and pure devotion. America is the Alamo for me. Unless I get empowered to buy a piece of land with structures and a healthy budget, I have to try to reclaim my Guru's stolen property and funds or die trying. That includes flaying and slaying (through philisophical debate) all Prabhupada minimizers and usurpers.

For your short memory. After posting a nice lecture and hoping to stimulate discussion on sadhana and nitya siddhas which were mentioned on another thread, you said the following. To which I replied. To which you replied. And I asked you again But then added for harmony sake. So I was not accusing you of something you never said. You said what you said, and it seemed unnecessary, indefensible, and against what Srila Prabhupada offers on the matter. So when you end saying.. To that I reply, why didn't you just say that instead of getting all up in the ol grill? And then claiming such innocence? I thought you passed the troll baton? If you can't be more temperate why toss your frustrated aspersions into an honest innocent thread? And you think I won't engage you on it? You should know me better by now. No offense, but if you want to toss your scat around, do it somewhere else please.

I see you ignored my question. If your Guru and Acarya tells me it will happen that way, why does it mean I am proud of myself if I believe him? And that I would be fooling myself to believe it possible. Are you off your meds today? How about this question. How long would it take the beginner following the Sadhana of first reading and understanding Bhagavad Gita as it is, and second Srimad Bhagavatam, 1-10, in order, before hearing the opinion of Krsna Das Kaviraja? And he only mentions it ONCE in the entire CC. And Srila Prabhupada's purport describes that KDK is stressing it IN THAT VERSE. Srila Prabhupada did not stress it so often, though he did mention it was more favorable once in a conversation. As a matter of fact here is his warning about the very pitfalls I described in my last post that you blew off so readily. Anyway, I don't see being able to acheive perfection in Sadhana without mercy. For the sake of harmony we can say that Sadhana-siddha is a form of manifestation of Krpa-siddha, but Krpa-siddha can occur without sadhana. I wonder if there are any instances in the scriptures of that happening? I will have to look it up. Here are some.

Krsna-Kirti and I go way back, I have tracked his activities for a long time. He is a monster of a speculative "reformer" a profound intellectual sophist, and will cuddle up with any of the cheaters if it serves his purpose of being heard and taken seriously. Another guy who was way to "smart" from the beginning. His epiphany is nothing more than a carefully calculated strategy at endearing himself to a demographic who he has identified as being a target market to his social reform ideas. There is no doubt in my mind as to his motivation, as there is none regarding Hrydayananda. They holy name is purifying them. Their sadhana is deviant, they are not Krpa siddhi, at this rate they will die struggling to keep a strangle hold on the innocents in the Iskcon rank and file, and any other innocent seeker who crosses their path. The only change I condone is to actually accept Srila Prabhupada as the Acarya of Iskcon, not a move to the right of left concerning popular social policies in the name of reform and pleasing Prabhupada. This question gets to the heart of the matter, and why I even give a rat's ass what this guy says in public. I came to Srila Prabhupada via a smart self-exiled fringy sadhu who shared Srila Prabhupada's BG and Bhagavatam with me. We met on the yoga/kirtana circuit. He had already given up on Iskcon, but brought me to a temple or two for Sunday feast, and explained the corruption scenario as he knew it. I was a generally responsible, self-initiating, self employed and adventurous western man with some intellect. I decided he couldn't possibly be right, that all of Iskcon proper was corrupted. I traveled to many temples and farm communities, and lived at a few. I participated and was humble as a ghost but the extreme arrogance of the "leaders", and the abuse their victims tolerated was beyond my capacity to tolerate in the name of getting along. It was a paradox that without false humility I can say I was the most mature and human person everywhere I went. When I realized that there was no sane Daiva Varnasrama community engaged in Sankirtana Yajna it blew me away. NONE. When I realized I was one of a couple handfuls of people scattered to the 4 winds who was even willing to accept SP as Spiritual Master and among even less who willing to discuss his DVD instructions, it affected me more profoundly. I scoured the internet for years and read all I could from Srila Prabhupada alone. Then I read what everyone else had to say. I attempted to contact just about anyone who was vocal, who claimed some authority in Iskcon, and speak with them reasonably. Just a hello, can we talk about Prabhupada's instructions? kind of thing. All I got were people trying to get me to come and clean their stool room for them, or telling me it was more important to listen to them than Prabhupada. Iskconers and Reformers alike. I have no individual potency to start a movement on my own. There are no Bhaktas of like mind getting together for occasional prasadam or kirtana. Nevermind infusing a locality with a broad spectrum of Vaisnava culture. And I am ambitious to be part of something more dynamic than my own worthless Bhajan Kutir in America. If I had any one of Srila Prabhupada's properties under my control I am certain I could help to run a bonafide Sankirtana program via the training I have picked up little by little during my infiltrations over the years. I know just the devotees I would invite to join me. But alas, Srila Prabhupada and Krsna don't seem to agree or I would be there. So all I have left is to try to pick these usurpers off, philisophically, exposing their true agendas, one at a time. I find out who those people are on the internet. The ones who have any link, any influence over Iskcon or those interested in Iskcon. The ones who speculate themselves into some position of authority, who minimize Srila Prabhupada either directly or by supporting his Sinister Detractors and Mis-representatives. I try to make every shot count. It keeps me learning the philosophy and able to defend the truth. While I bide my time. It helps purify my frustration and anger and wards off my sense of impotence. And also exposes these rascals for what they are.

Is it truly arrogant to expect that if a Guru tells you to follow the rules and regs of sadhana, and that you will acheive the perfection of falling in Love with Krsna that it could happen as the Guru suggests? Are you sure about that? I personally believe that thinking about krpa siddha, or praying that we become perfect that way will not hasten it if it is to happen. One one hand, it seems like asking for a short cut because one is lazy or not motivated. Isn't it the Guru's mercy that allows us to engage in the minimum standards he has given? It was the minimum after all. We were instructed to engage in sadhana. That is known. We are instructed to pay obeisances to the Spiritual Master 3 times a day and pray that he continues to be merciful to us, and that we are able to please him in order to advance in our service. Should he wish to confer an immediate wholesale purification and infusion of the perfect ability to represent the Lord's will upon us is up to his prerogative. If for some reason we are struggling at maintaining the minimum standards, it seems more appropriate to me to pray for the mercy to be able to meet the standards. Not to become an overnight perfected preaching mountain moving superstary. Is that a fact? It seems to me that a part of Guru's Krpa is to purify such a sincere devotee chanting the # of (measly) rounds prescribed by the Guru and struggling to meet the minimum standards. To purify him of any impediments so he can advance in sadhana and let it take its course. Perhaps the fact that Krpa Siddhi is rarely mentioned reflects the realities of the importance of sadhana, the likelihood of sadhana being effective by Guru's mercy, and the dangers that focusing too much on the phenomenon of Krpa siddhi might pose to those who should be focused on their sadhana. Just a thought.

It is all in here. Nitya-siddha, sadhana-siddha, MahaBhagavata, Kanistha-Madhyama-Uttama adhikari, how they all relate, and how they are manifest through the particular sadhana Srila Prabhupada is giving to his disciples. A masterpiece all encompassing lecture. SB 7.9.4 Lecture Mayapura 1976 Dayānanda: (chants verse, etc.) "Translation: O king Yudhiṣṭhira, Prahlāda Mahārāja, the exalted devotee, although a little boy, accepted the words of Lord Brahmā and gradually proceeded towards Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva, and immediately fell down to offer his respectful obeisances with folded hands. Prabhupāda: tatheti śanakai rājan mahā-bhāgavato 'rbhakaḥ upetya bhuvi kāyena nanāma vidhṛtāñjaliḥ [sB 7.9.4] So, Prahlāda Mahārāja, mahā-bhāgavata, uttama-adhikārī. There are three stages of devotional platform. First stage is called kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, second stage is called madhyama-adhikārī, and third stage, or topmost stage, is called uttama-adhikārī. So, he was only five years old, how he became uttama-adhikārī, on the topmost stage? He had no training. Still, he is addressed here by Narada Muni—Narada Muni was his guru—and still, he is describing Prahlāda Mahārāja as mahā-bhāgavata. That means even one is mahā-bhāgavata, he has to accept a guru. Narada Muni, his guru, he knows that "Prahlāda is my disciple, but he is mahā-bhāgavata." Not only that, before his birth, when he was within the womb of his mother... His mother was attacked by the demigods, headed by Indra, and they were dragging her to their palace. Narada Muni met, said "What are you doing this? You are harassing one woman?No sir, we are not harassing, only we are taking her in our place to wait for the deliverance of the child. Then we shall kill him. Because he is born of atheist father, so he is another demon." Narada Muni said, "No, no, no, you are mistaken. He is not demon, he is mahā-bhāgavata." So in the beginning he was mahā-bhāgavata, since he was in within the womb of his mother. And later on he is mahā-bhāgavata. This is called nitya-siddha, eternally mahā-bhāgavata. Eternally mahā-bhāgavata never forgets Kṛṣṇa, in any circumstance. That is the sign of mahā-bhāgavata, nitya-siddha. Prahlāda Mahārāja was put into so many trials when he was only a child, still he never forgot Kṛṣṇa. That is the sign of mahā-bhāgavata. In any circumstances. It does not mean that because one is mahā-bhāgavata he should not be put into trials. He can be put into trials, because the material world is like that. The western country, they, Lord Jesus Christ, he was put into trials but he never forgot Kṛṣṇa. This is sign of mahā-bhāgavata, nitya-siddha. gaurāṅgera saṅgi-gaṇe nitya-siddha kori 'māne se jāy brajenda-nandana pāś If one can understand nitya-siddha bhāgavata, then he immediately becomes eligible to go back to home, to back to godhead. This is the privilege of associating with mahā-bhāgavata. So our system is, (child crying—aside:) try and maintain (?). Evaṁ paramparā, to associate with the mahā-bhāgavata by words or by physical exposition (?). So mahā-bhāgavata arbhakaḥ. One may argue, arbhakaḥ means foolish child, who has no knowledge, he is called arbhakaḥ. How we can say mahā-bhāgavata? Arbhakaḥ, he has no knowledge. No. It is possible. Ahaituky apratihatā. Bhakti does not depend on age, or on advanced knowledge, or richness, or so many other things. Janmaiśvarya-śruta-śrī [sB 1.8.26]. To take birth in high family, aristocracy, and to become rich, to become beautiful, to become very learned scholar. These things are material assets, but spiritual life does not depend on these things. One can become spiritually very advanced even though he is poor, he is born in a low, low-grade family. Just like Haridāsa Ṭhākura. He was born in Muhammadan family, but mahā-bhāgavata. There are so many examples. Not that because he was born in a Muhammadan family therefore he cannot. This Marchoism (?) is like that, but actually it is not. Ahaituky apratihatā. Bhakti is so purifying that any condition, any circumstances, one can become devotee. māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim [bg. 9.32] Kṛṣṇa says. So everyone has got the potency to become mahā-bhāgavata, provided he tries. Sādhana-siddha and nitya-siddha. Prahlāda Mahārāja is nitya-siddha and there are sādhana-siddhas, just like we are. We are trying to approach the topmost goal of life by bhajana, by sādhana. So anyone has got the potency to come to the stage of mahā-bhāgavata provided he follows the mahājana. You can become mahā-bhāgavata if you follow mahājana. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. If you follow the mahājana's path then everyone can become. Of course, it is not possible everyone to become mahā-bhāgavata, but there is possibility. Simply we have to become serious to follow the path of mahājana. Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyāṁ mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ. Tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ. Simply by argument, you cannot make advancement. Simply by neti neti, or there are many other processes, mystic yoga process to become very austere, remain silent, mauna-vrata śruta-tapa, tapasya, education, austerity. None of them are the cause, but becoming bhakta, only devotional service, if one is fixed up, dṛḍha-vratāḥ. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritaḥ bhajanty, dṛḍha-vratāḥ [bg. 9.13]. So we should be very much firmly fixed up, following the rules and regulation. So Prahlāda Mahārāja he is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha means there are living entities, every living entity is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, so one who does not fall down, he is called nitya-siddha. One who does not fall down. Just like in this material world there are millions and millions of living entities, but they have fallen down. But there are multi-millions and millions of living entities in the vaikuṇṭha-loka, they never fall down. They are called nitya-siddha. They never come here. So we have no information. This is only one-fourth manifestation of God's creation and the three-fourths creation of God is there. Not creation, it is everlasting. Just like in the prison house, if you go to the prison house, it does not mean that the whole state is there. It is only insignificant part of the state, and only the criminals they are put together. So this material world, material world means so many planets you see, so many stars and planets, the sun planet, moon planet and loka, sarva-loka-maheśvaram [bg. 5.29]. This is one universe, and there are millions of universes. Altogether that is material world, and that is one part of creation. Ekāṁśena sthito jagat [bg. 10.42]. The jagat means this material world. So the whole material, ananta koṭi. Yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi-koṭiṣv aśeṣa vasudhādi vibhūti-bhinnam [bs. 5.40]. This ananta-koṭi-brahmāṇḍa is only one-fourth manifestation of God's creation, and just imagine what is the other three-fourth, that is spiritual world. So the nitya-siddha mahā-bhāgavata, they come from the spiritual world on the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and they, by example, they preach Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. This is mahā-bhāgavata. By suffering, by example, everything, they look like ordinary men, but mahā-bhāgavata. How it is tested? Never forgets Kṛṣṇa. This is mahā-bhāgavata nitya-siddha. And sādhana-siddha means those who are put into this material world, by the association of mahā-bhāgavata, if he tries, follows, then he can also become mahā-bhāgavata or nitya-siddha, because originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti 'sādhya' kabhu naya śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world, and he was delivered also, both of them were delivered. So although you have fallen in this material world, and suffering the pangs of material existence, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi [bg. 13.9], on account of accepting this material body, still, Kṛṣṇa personally comes, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata [bg. 4.7]. This is glāniḥ, discrepancies. We are living this material existence, this is not real life. Real life is to become mahā-bhāgavata. So you cannot become a mahā-bhāgavata all of a sudden, but from kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, arcāyām eva haraye yaḥ pūjāṁ śraddhayehate na tad-bhakteṣu cānyeṣu sa bhaktaḥ prākṛtaḥ smṛtaḥ Prākṛtaḥ stage, so prakṛtaḥ stage means just like we are worshiping The Deity, but not only we shall worship Deity but we make advancement. What is that advancement? To become gradually a preacher. That is madhyama-adhikārī, second stage, preacher. Preacher means that, īśvare tad-adhīneṣu bāliśeṣu dviṣatsu ca prema-maitrī-kṛpā upekṣāḥ yaḥ karoti sa madhyamaḥ When you become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious by worshiping the Deity regularly, as we have got prescription to rise early in the morning, offer maṅgala-ārati, then kīrtana, then class, in this way practicing, practicing. When you become advanced Kṛṣṇa conscious, then your natural tendency will be how to preach. So long you do not develop this tendency for preaching, simply remain in kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, you do not know how to deliver others, na tad-bhakteṣu cānyeṣu, you do not know how to receive elevated, one elevated devotee, you do not know how to do good to others. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is not to keep one in the kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, especially those who are born in India. He says bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra [Cc. Ādi 9.41] This is principle, para-upakāra, because everyone is suffering. So in the lower stage, everyone should take part very diligently in the worship of the Deity, śrī-vigrahārādhana-nitya-nānā-sṛṅgāra-tan-mandira-mārj anādau **. One should be engaged, everyone should be engaged, śrī-vigrahārādhanam, with Deity worship. What is that Deity worship? Sri, śrī-vigrahārādhana-nitya-nānā-śṛṅgāra **. To decorate the Deity very, very nicely, śṛṅgāra. Tan-mandira-mārjanādau, and to keep the temple, all through, very clean. This kaniṣṭha-adhikārī should be fully engaged in these things, then he becomes gradually, I mean to say, elevated in the madhyama-adhikārī. In the madhyama-adhikārī he can see four things. What is that? Four things means, first of all the Supreme Lord, īśvara, the controller, he can see. He can see means he understands, he appreciates, he can conceive, "Yes, the Supreme Lord is there". There is no more theoretical. So īśvara, and tad-adhīneṣu, and persons who have become devotee, he can understand, "Here is a devotee." Īśvare tad-adhīneṣu bāliśeṣu. Bāliśa means he knows imperson. They do not know what is God, what is to be done, they are called bāliśa. Just like children, arbhakaḥ, bāliśa. And then dviṣāt, envious. Just like you have experienced so many rascals, as soon as they hear of God, immediately they become agitated. They are called dviṣāt, envious, demons. So four things, God, His devotees, and the innocent person, and the demonic atheist. He can see, madhyama-adhikārī. And then he behaves with these four classes of men differently. What is that? Prema, for Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, how to increase love. That is first business, prema. And those who are devotees, to make friendship with them maitrī. Those who are higher than him, he should offer very respectful obeisances, those who are equal, treat them with nicely, and those who are lower then instruct them, bāliśeṣu. Those who are innocent, how to raise him in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is preaching. And dviṣatsu, upekṣaḥ, those who are atheist, don't associate with them. Don't associate with them. That is the madhyama-adhikārī. And uttama-adhikārī, that is very rarely attained, this stage. Uttama-adhikārī, has only equal, one vision, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate. The uttama-adhikārī, he does not think that "He is envious," or "he is this," or "he is that," he sees that everyone is engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is not to be imitated. That Prahlāda Mahārāja is like that. He did not know who is his enemy and who is friend. No, he did not know. He is uttama-adhikārī, mahā-bhāgavata. So this mahā-bhāgavata, this word is very important in this verse, mahā-bhāgavato 'rbhakaḥ. Immediately, as soon as Brahmā requested, "My dear boy, please pacify." No hesitation, immediately he fell down. Upetya bhuvi kāyena. He is always at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, and, as a child, immediately as Brahmā said, immediately he did. Kāyena upetya nanāma, as it is, he was not to be lesson, that you meant like this, fall down this, no, he knows, everything. Life after life he is doing that. Gaurāṅgera saṅgi-gaṇe, nitya-siddha kori māne. Whenever there is Kṛṣṇa's incarnation, just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, as soon as He advented Himself, immediately there was Advaitācārya, Nityānanda, and other, many, many devotees. They are guarāṅgera saṅgi, they are not sādhana-bhakti, they are eternally associate. So similarly Prahlāda Mahārāja is also eternally associate. Whenever there is need, by the order of Kṛṣṇa, he is present there to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa. This is our position. Eternal servant. We should not become servant to make some material profit. He is not, he is not śuddha-bhakta. Sa vai vaṇik, Prahlāda Mahārāja. So anyone who serves Kṛṣṇa for some material benefit, sa vai vaṇik. Material benefit means, that śāstra, Kṛṣṇa says that, patraṁ puspaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [bg. 9.26]. So many person comes in the temple for some material benefit. They surrender to the saintly person for some material benefit. "Give me aṣibha (?) benediction.What benediction?I have got ten thousand rupees, make it one lakh by your benediction." So these kind of devotees have been described by Prahlāda Mahārāja as vaṇik, vaṇīya, mercantile. Therefore merchant people, they want to invest two rupees and make, want to make profit ten rupees. So offering Kṛṣṇa little flower and fruit, they want to get some horses and elephant, you see, or very big estate. This is not devotion. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. Our position is eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa's position is eternal master. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram [bg. 5.29]. He is the enjoyer. He is the proprietor. That is eternally, He is master, and we are eternally servant. If you keep this position, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So mahā-bhāgavata, they know always, they never forget this position, and those who are fallen souls, conditioned souls, they do not know it, so they have to be raised to that stage. That stage, how? So he is also nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti, as soon as one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious fully, he becomes nitya-siddha again. So either you come by sādhana-bhakti or naturally, the, when you come to the ultimate stage, everyone is nitya-siddha. So nitya-siddha, those who come from Vaikuntha, they are never fallen, never forgets Kṛṣṇa, that is nitya-siddha, and by the teachings of nitya-siddha mahā-bhāgavata, if one follows and then becomes by sādhana-siddha, by regulative principle, they also become nitya-siddha later on. And when one becomes nitya-siddha again, there is no difference between this living entity and that living entity, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. So tatheti śanakai rājan mahā-bhāgavato 'rbhakaḥ upetya bhuvi kāyena nanāma vidhṛtāñjaliḥ If you simply learn from Prahlāda Mahārāja, simply offer your obeisances, as under the instruction of Brahmā, if you follow the guru, Brahmā is the guru, guru's guru. Prahlāda Mahārāja's guru was Narada and his guru was Brahmā. So our sampradāya is Brahmā, Brahmā sampradāya. There are four sampradāyas. We belong to this Brahmā sampradāya. So sampradāya-vihīnā ye mantrās te niṣphalā. We have to accept one sampradāya, paramparā, and if we follow, just like Prahlāda Mahārāja, exactly under the order of Brahmā and Narada, immediately fell down, so everyone can do it. Here is Kṛṣṇa. So everyone, if he follows mahājana, Brahmā is the first mahājana. Svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ [sB 6.3.20], Brahmā, his another name is Svayambhū. These are mahājanas. Svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ [sB 6.3.20], Kapila, Manu, Prahlāda, Prahlāda is also mahājana. Prahlāda, Janaka, Bhīṣma, bali vaiyāsakiḥ vayam. So Prahlāda Mahārāja is mahājana. He is mahā-bhāgavata. Don't think that he is a little boy. That is his pastime to show us how a little boy can become mahā-bhāgavata, how a little boy can be the eternal associate of Kṛṣṇa, and how he can preach. That is Prahlāda Mahārāja. Thank you very very much. (end)

Is it? We could tie it in. For instance, Satswarupa is publicly admitting to deception of his disciples, but not in a way that indicates he thinks there is anything wrong with it!!! And how long has he been chanting the Holy Names? Is this a sign that what he has been treating as an object, using it mechanically for his own purposes, is starting to wear him down. Forcing his conscience so to speak? And what about GuruCripple. An outburst from him due to pangs of conscience mixed with his still motivated agenda? The Holy Name does its thing, as you point out, with or without our consciously purposeful intention. Eventually cornering us into surrendering of our own free will to its transforming potency.

From my experience with this fellow, he is just another "Srila Prabhupada is long gone, posthumous, can't give diksa from a tape recorder through ritivks now that his body is in samadhi", and mental speculator of the fourth degree. He considered himself "initiated" by a usurping faker like Hryday, and has stood by that for decades of Hrydaya's misrepresentation and overt non-acarya behavior, (wearing shoes on altar, claiming he likes to listen to classical orchestral music in his spare time as opposed to kirtana, the list goes on) while still encouraging the fawning masses to address him as "Acaryadeva". Now he takes a strategic posture to assure him some spoils from the fallout of the splintering of Iskcon. Yawn.

One follows the other. First all occurs mechanically. The original internal decision to follow mechanically may not even be based upon a perception of personal lack of spiritual grace, it may be based on desire for power and material facility. But still, the purifying effect of the mantra and arcana will have its way and induce the internal crisis. That is the conclusion. How long it takes for each individual is not set in stone. But as we have witnessed, for those whose Heart is set in stone, a decades of such machinations sometimes remain just that.

One follows the other. First all occurs mechanically. The original internal decision to follow mechanically may not even be based upon a perception of personal lack of spiritual grace, it may be based on desire for power and material facility. But still, the purifying effect of the mantra and arcana will have its way and induce the internal crisis. That is the conclusion. How long it takes for each individual is not set in stone. But as we have witnessed, for those whose Heart is set in stone, a decades of such machinations sometimes remain just that.

I rest my case, until you say otherwise. The results you consider undesirable are due to your illusion, not Krsna's will. Anyhow, Srila Prabhupada covered the bases insisting on DVD, purity as the force, piety as the ideal example. We failed him. Not the other way around.

The Second Birth that makes a person a Vaisnava is based on the infusion of culture that occurs by the company of his Second Mother and Father. The Mother is Transcendental Vedic Knowledge, and the Father is the Spiritual Master who helps him learn and realize that knowledge. In the Krsna Consciousness Movement, even the dullest and least intelligent type of man, the Sudra, can accept the beginnings of culture by hearing the simple explanations given by the Spiritual Master that will convince him he is not the body but a spirit soul, part and parcel of the Supreme Lord Krsna. He can receive a simple beginners understanding of how great Krsna is. He can be directly engaged in simple labors on behalf of the Spiritual Master and his society, and see how that pleases Lord Krsna. From that small infusion of Culture he WILL make gradual advancement. Just like with making yogurt from milk, one adds a small amount of culture, and then must put the milk into a condition in which the culture will gradually expand and permeate the milk, transforming it into a complete product of that culture. Yogurt. This is what Srngi lacked as a boy, and why he developed a condescending disdain for the "lower castes" He was born and trained to acheive high brahminical power, yet lacked culture due to inexperience, and encountered a situation that preyed on his weakness and caused him to fall. The second quote is the lecture on culture, and it is a good one. It uses the term sudra to refer to those with no culture. The third quote shows how due to Srila Prabhupada's and Mahaprabhu's mercy, in this age a sudra who gets initiated into Gaudiya Vaisnava culture becomes "as good as a brahmana" in the sense that they have some cultural infusion at their second birth wherein they accept instruction and service of the Acarya. <table><tbody><tr><td width="80%">Prabhupāda: Not that a śūdra man is by force become a brāhmaṇa. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a śūdra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya sam... [Bg. 18.46]. He'll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a śūdra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a śūdra can get perfection provided he does the work of a śūdra perfectly. (More...) </td><td width="5%"> </td></tr></tbody></table>

In the NOD, Srila Prabhupada said that we should follow the rules and regs mechanically at first. And then at some point, an internal transformation would occur. At that point we would continue doing the exact same external activities, yet they would then be occuring spontaneously and we would feel bliss in the doing, instead of being tinged with a sense of forcing ourselves as a duty. He calls the activities performed before our internal shift "vaidhi/regulated" and those post-internal shift, "spontaneous/Raganuga"

In the NOD, Srila Prabhupada said that we should follow the rules and regs mechanically at first. And then at some point, an internal transformation would occur. At that point we would continue doing the exact same external activities, yet they would then be occuring spontaneously and we would feel bliss in the doing, instead of being tinged with a sense of forcing ourselves as a duty. He calls the activities performed before our internal shift "vaidhi/regulated" and those post-internal shift, "spontaneous/Raganuga"

Looks like I'm gonna need a bigger toothbrush.

And types like a troll...

Prabhu, just see that it is all of those things. Every truth you see has a relation to the Absolute Truth and his plan. Kali made his choices. Srngi made his choices. King Pariksit made his. King Pariksit was a more experienced and cultured person at his evolutionary moment, as compared to the powerful but inexperienced and uncultured young Brahmana boy. Kali was, well powerfully influenced by Tama guna, but he surrendered to a Maha-Bhagavat, so received some mercy. And yes all are and were puppets of the Lord's will and desire, either directly through guidance from within, or indirectly by the direction of the Lord's pure servant Maha-Maya. Its all good as someone once said.

No it is based upon what Scripture says, and what he accomplished, you know those accomplishments you claim to be tainted with poor results yet seem to be extremely envious of. You obviously think people can't read. By your own statements you consider Srila Prabhupada a conditioned soul who made mistakes at his attempt to make better material arrangements for the world. Your understanding of an acarya goes in direct contradiction to scripture, revealed by your decade long campaign of criticism which continues to this day. While the above is correct, it omits a very important point. Firstly, your penchant for creating straw men is getting old. I never said whatever he did was dictated verbatim by Krsna. However the point you omit is that whatever he did "may as well have been directly dictated verbatim". Why you ask? If he was a Maha-Bhagavata, uttama adhikari, Spiritual Master, and Acarya as you claim to believe, his realizations were perfection, his decisions were perfect, and the tikas of previous acaryas were perfect. And before you jump the gun and make assumptions about what I mean by perfect, it is not according to your mundane super-hero understanding of perfect, but perfect meaning according to the Lord's will, desire, and plans. So at this stage of perfection, if you indeed believe the one you criticize was there, the following occurs. We know that dictation also means guidance. Direction. As a matter of fact, at the advanced stage of devotional service, it is considered that all acts of that devotee are in harmony with the will and desire of the Lord, this is why there are hundreds of examples of using the word dictation, with all the various meanings possible according to the circumstance. In general it means simply knowing and acting in a way pleasing to the lord, not that he speaks to you in every circumstance literally, "Kula, it is time to use the toilet. Proceed down the hall and make the first left, open the door, etc." For instance : But of course such dictation can occur if the situation requires. So, regarding your personal accountability theory for Acaryas, If you think his choices were inappropriate, and brought poor results to the movement as you have always said, then you are directly criticising the one who guided his every move as he was completely surrendered to Krsna's will. Unless of course, you believe you are smarter than Krsna. Or perhaps you should just admit, that due to your "beliefs" and opinions, there is no way Srila Prabhupada was a Maha-Bhagavat, a Spiritual Master, or Acarya. Just freakin SAY IT DIRECTLY FOR ONCE AND FOR ALL. It will make you feel better. And me too. If it walks like a troll, smells like a troll.....

Many people claim to be no longer within the Iskcon framework, but as you pointed out, the enormity of Srila Prabhupada's accomplishments, with rudimentary assistance from people who, although willing and sometimes sincere, were entirely ignorant of 99% of what was Gaudiya Vaisnavism, makes it difficult for anyone who had the advantage of all he gave to claim to be not under his wing. I belive THAT was by the Lord's design in order to keep us honest, and make it obvious who is trying to get what they don't deserve and make a mess of things. For someone to create their own Sankirtana mission, based on Gaudiya Philsophy, on their own merits, without capitalizing on Srila Prabhupada's foundational legacy, or possibly contradicting him at some point in time, is practically nil. But if it were so, that person would certainly not be regularly associating with Iskcon members, quoting Srila Prabhupada, handing out his books, and simultanously calling Srila Prabhupada's decision making into question on a daily basis. Just the facts, Jack.

You are right about his argument being off base, but so is your conclusion. Below is the logical progression based on the evidence and opinion of an advanced devotional servant of Lord Krsna. See the relevant portions of the purports below. But because the age of Kali was seeking an opportunity to spoil the cultural heritage of the four orders of life, the inexperienced boy gave a chance for the age of Kali to enter into the field of Vedic culture. Hatred of the lower orders of life began from this brāhmaṇa boy, under the influence of Kali, and thus cultural life began to dwindle day after day. The first victim of brahminical injustice was Mahārāja Parīkṣit, and thus the protection given by the King against the onslaught of Kali was slackened. Herein Śṛṅgi, a qualified son of a great brāhmaṇa, attained the required brahminical power both by birth and by training, but he was lacking in culture because he was an inexperienced boy. By the influence of Kali, the son of a brāhmaṇa became puffed up with brahminical power and thus wrongly compared Mahārāja Parīkṣit to crows and watchdogs. Thus the downfall of the brahminical powers began as they gave importance to birthright without culture. The downfall of the brāhmaṇa caste began in the age of Kali. And since brāhmaṇas are the heads of the social order, all other orders of society also began to deteriorate. This mentality of false prestige is the cause of downfallof the perfect social order, and we can see thatin the beginning it was started by the inexperienced son of a brāhmaṇa. The conclusion is not lack of proper birth or training, but lack of cultural experience, or lack of the culture of equal-vision, compassion and tolerance. This lack of cultural experience is Kali's refuge. This is why Srila Prabhupada came not just to train the brahminically inclined in potent ritual, but to infuse them with the culture of knowledge of Sri Krsna and how every living being is His part and parcel and how Krsna is present in every one, and how to treat each person for their best benefit instead of how it best benefits our own sense of prestige.

Though your sentiment towards Kulapavana is kind-hearted, you have to realize that we can't have things both ways. One can serve only one master. Either Srila Prabhupada was an Advanced Pure Devotee of Sri Krsna, a Maha Bhagavat Acarya and Spiritual MASTER who takes constant and eternal dictation from Supersoul, or not. If he was such a one, those who scrutinize the legitimacy of his decisions in carrying out his mission, or claim the results of his efforts were harmful to the Krsna Consciousness movement, considering it as some material endeavor, are in ignorance. And not representing Krsna nicely at all. Of course if he was not such a one, then that so called Spiritual Master is a legitimate and necessary target for scrutiny and criticism in the name of reforming a his poor methodologies. If one is honest and humbly skeptical and scrutinizing in order to come to some reconciliation with apparent contradictions, that is natural and understandable and a compassionate person should endeavor to assist such an honest seeker of truth in whatever way possible to come to terms. Though it seems disingenuous to me when a person points to the contradictions they find as indications of the failure of Srila Prabhupada, instead of first assuming it is because of their own fallen vision. And while they haven't yet reconciled them, they are found to resist all reasonable efforts at explanation by those who have reconciled them. Such a person has an agenda that does not include glorifying the Acarya, representing the Acarya, and it is obvious they do not actually believe he was of the exalted status that others believe he was. So in such a case, I believe a wise person would not air out their assessment that Srila Prabhupada was flawed in the presence of known loyal disciples of his. There would be nothing for such a person to gain by doing so. But a person looking to capitalize on the Acarya's legacy would do things differently. They would use a large amount of the knowledge and wherewithal infused to them by the Acarya, but then minimize him in other ways, hoping to draw sympathetic persons into his circle in the name of reforming the mistakes the so-called Acarya made. Thus building something of his own design off of the foundation he actually took from the Acarya, and simultaneously guiding the disenfranchised sympathizers away from the chance of resolving the apparent contradictions in the Acarya's movement in their own minds and being able to push on with the Acarya's version and gain the advancement that goes along with some effort. Instead they get stuck in the Acarya-criticisers speculation effort and their spiritual advancement is stalled under that person's insufficient guidance. Buyer Beware.

Yes, that was already touched on, and you don't have to include the whole previous post in a reply, especially when it is that big. The nice thing is that in every circumstance, there is more than one truth involved, simultaneously.

Oh so he came to America, was surrounded with 5000 people, and like a captain of a team on a playground, he lined them up and picked, Ok you will be on 1st base, you will be the pitcher, you in left field. You claim that Sri Krsna's Saktavesha avatara could be conned and tricked by a bunch of hippies you claim were "first class actors and natural con-artists." Yet you weren't fooled. Trusted them but not completely. But you trusted Srila Prabhupada who was such a dupe. Riiiiiiight. The reality of the situation is that starting with the first group of men who stood forward, attended his lectures, got him a better apartment and began to serve him, and from then on those fallen westerners with rudimentary tendencies of the brahmana and ksyatria varna stepped forward, and he engaged them as they came. It took a while for that # to become 5000 and he juggled them according to who he thought was best in whatever situation. What part about Krsna as Supersoul dictating to the Acarya don't you understand. On the other hand, by the sound of your posts, you don't believe he was an Acarya at all. Why don't you just admit it. Perhaps because your pool of prospective disciples would quickly reduce to NIL.

There are many valid angles of vision as to the why when how and what for of Kali-Yuga. The philosophy of Shree Krishna is Acintya BedhaAbheda tattva. Inconceivable Simultaneous Oneness and Difference. So there is no argument needed to put forth the observation that the curse of Srngi was a blessing in disguise for Maharaja Pariksit. For this is the truth and how the Lord purifies his devotees. Yet simultaneously Srngi made an offensive blunder as part of his own Purification and spiritual growth process. But your claim that Maharaja Pariksit "failed" in any way must be seen in the same light. This can be seen by a deeper analysis of Maharaja Pariksit's treatment of Kali, who surrendered to him. Thus setting up the scenario for Kali Yuga, a Yuga in which Krsna decends with his big brother as Sri Sri Gaura Nitai and displays his infinite magnanimity in saving the most fallen and offering them everything. And setting up their pure servant, Srila Bhatkivedanta Swami Prabhupada to give instructions on how we can finally actually counteract Kali Yuga, something which the so-called Vedicans in India have obviously failed at up til today. His instructions are explicit within his purports to the very story of King Pariksit and his meeting with Kali.