andy108

Fresh air to some, hot air to others. Of course I would rather believe you. As for preaching to the faithless, here is the justification for those who dare. BG 3.29 Translation "Bewildered by the modes of material nature, the ignorant fully engage themselves in material activities and become attached. But the wise should not unsettle them although these duties are inferior due to the performers' lack of knowledge. Purport: "Men who are ignorant cannot appreciate activities in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and therefore Lord Kṛṣṇa advises us not to disturb them and simply waste valuable time. But the devotees of the Lord are more kind than the Lord because they understand the purpose of the Lord. Consequently they undertake all kinds of risks even to the point of approaching ignorant men to try and engage them in the acts of Kṛṣṇa consciousness which are absolutely necessary for the human being." Further commentary during lecture on this verse.... Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa said that devotees, that you should not disturb them. But devotees are so kind that taking all risk. Just like Nityānanda Prabhu took all risk, Lord Jesus Christ took all risk. Therefore a devotee is more kind than God. A devotee is more merciful than God Himself. We should always remember this. And therefore Kṛṣṇa says, mad-bhaktaḥ pūjyābhyādhika. "Anyone who worships My devotee, he worships more than what he can do for Me." That means He appreciates the worship of His devotee than to Himself. So actually, devotees are so kind. Kṛṣṇa says, "Those who are absorbed too much in material consciousness, don't disturb them." But devotees take the risks, even at the cost of life. Therefore devotee is so dear to Kṛṣṇa. That will be explained in the Eighteenth chapter. "The person who takes all risk for preaching God consciousness, nobody is dearer than him in the human society." Kṛṣṇa says like that.

That money is no longer dirty. Don't forget, when Srila Prabhupada started his mission EVERYONE in the western world was stealing from God. Like the example from Sastra where the devotees from a south India region were forced to steal from the rich dacoits who travelled the highways just to afford rice to offer to the deities in their humble temple. He and He alone could justify using theiving hippies to get money where without such who in the west would have just funded Srila Prabhupada to do what he did? It was Krsna's arrangement, he blessed it, the money is clean. HOWEVER, that being said. WE ARE NOT AUTHORIZED TO IMITATE THIS, and I agree wholeheartedly with Kulapavana that anyone in Iskcon who uses such Transcendental activities of Srila Prabhupada to justify further duplicity is a rascal. SP specifically told us to shoot for mode of goodness, be exemplary in expressing Varna and asrama, and be on the level. Actually, it will be a similar occurance of the Lord's miraculous Mercy and transcendental empowerment if we can PULLTHAT OFF. It is much easier just to remain rascals and rob cheat and lie, however subtly and well intentioned we are with it, it is not sanctioned and will lead to ruin.

It sounds like you believe what you just wrote, but that does not change the fact of what I said about your historical usage of the fact of "backlash" to justify your minimization campaign. I am not saying it is easy to deal with the backlash. You call me disgruntled, but why bother when you know you are, and for good reason. You faithfully served a very crafty and devious personage who got one over on you. But remember it was your good intentions, lack of malice and lack of duplicity, good qualities, plus lack of worldly experience, that blinded you to Hurry Cash and his true nature. You still keep your good qualities and move on, but your wound is now a scar that aches a bit in the winter. So the bottom line is if you are not transcendentally endowed with the inconceivable potency to do what Srila Prabhupada did with hell on wheels dacoits and theives, not to worry! The Lord did not and does not expect anyone to be another Saktavesha Jagat Guru Paramahamsa Acarya anytime soon, that is why the one he sent was careful to give a detailed outline of instructions that guys like you and me can understand and implement with a little faith and austerity. Daily Morning Program. Prasadam distribution. Harinama, at least around the block. Distribute books when available. Set up a strategic preaching program when the stars align. Represent him as Ritvik in terms of initiation. Act as the best mentor we can, approaching Siksa Guru capacity with each passing day. Know our Daiva Varna and Asrama. Make sure all new comers who want to be initiated disciples are engaged according to their actual Daiva varna and asrama. Which means, if they are a homosexual theif, we let them attend the temple programs, but they get no standing above sudra in the management scenario of our society. If they are pious and military minded, they are engaged commensurate to their experience. Best we can do as far as I can see. What say you?

It is a shame that my false ego pops its head in via my style, sarcasm, and other poor characteristics. Because I know my analyses are mostly spot on, because I let my Guru tell the truth and then repeat it in my own way. I am not certain if I was completely neutral and robotic in my presentation that I would be any better liked or respected, especially by those who we all know aren't looking to change and are trying to make a career out of being a pseudo-acarya like Muni. But they help me sharpen my sword, and maybe my fire and commitment adds something to those who are on the fence watching the debate. Hard to say. But If I know the truth, and the people I am debating with don't know and usually don't ACTUALLY CARE, and I know that.... I avoid ad hominems, but call a spade a spade. And I wouldn't even be here doing this but for 2 reasons. 1. I don't have the land or finances to start my own temple. I am mostly qualfied (Toot toot of my own horn) but waiting on an imminent financial windfall. If I was totally qualified it would be in my hands right now I suppose. 2. None of the older Prabhus who I actually look up to, Like you, Have anything going on either. And I have tried to play middle man messenger between select older Prabhus, hoping to assist in healing old wounds and mending fences so that a synergy might develop between Y'all, because it would also benefit me by being able to take shelter of a regular Harinama sankirtana group. But to no avail. And I refuse to go hang at an Itsgone temple. So until I get my commission I will be on the internet. Trolling for trolls, and flailing my sword like a maniac. What fun. Thanks for your patience with me. Hare Krsna

Right here. Again, your very statement indicates you were missing the Main cause of his strategy. It always produced good results in terms of his highest cause of being compassionate enough to accept an untouchable homo hippie to his breast, give him mercy, and initiate his spiritual purification. The good results you were hoping for, which granted did not occur through those men, would have been a positive but secondary by product. However, the instructions they did not follow are still available for YOU to. And that was the Lord's and Guru's mercy. And you have historically used this real fact to argue that Srila Prabhupada's methods and "strategies" at properly cultivating people were a failure. I counter the arguement, time and again, and warn that you are minimizing a saktavesha avatara and acarya in doing so. And you say I am a bigot. But it is you who are so stubbornly holding on to your prejudice against Srila Prabhupada based on a faulty perspective of his deepest intent and methods, leading you down a path to a raw deal, and perhaps swaying new naive aspirants who still hold ultimate value to altruistic material "so called compassion and would agree with you and decide not to take Srila Prabhupada's instructions on these matters seriously. Which again is not in your best interest.

I am sorry that I offended you yesterday. But it would be a shame if you let that color your judgement here. I am not trying to demonstrate anything to anyone. If you look objectively, I read what kula said, and countered it with commentary based strictly on what Srila Prabhupada said. If someone feels that being corrected is being talked down to, then you have pissed off hundreds of people in your day.

You are missing the point of the Acarya's function and reason for being here. Having ultimate mercy and spiritual compassion is the means and the end. That was his result. Whatever slow steady purification that has been going on with those worst of the worst characters the universe had to offer, whom Krsna threw Prabhupada's way, IS THE PRIMARY RESULT both Krsna and Prabhupada was looking for. If he hadn't set their devotional life in motion, however subtly, imagine the havoc they were meant to wreak upon this planet. Wake up! Conversely you imagine that the prime cause was to create a perfect movement, and strategically choose people for "jobs" with maximum pragmatic efficiency. Your mundane talent at managing people is the lens you look through. You don't appreciate Prabhupada's compassion, because you haven't yet grasped what REAL compassion is. From your writings on this thread it is obvious you adhere to the perverted idea of compassion that is based on making a person feel comfortable about their material choices so they don't feel offended or encouraged to do anything but keep doing what they are doing. Far left liberal nonsense. So-called compassion. Compassion is a SPIRITUAL activity. It is knowing what is best for a person and prescribing that regardless of how they feel about it. And I am not talking about shaming them for current predilections and breaking their spirit, but telling it like it is and offering them the best course of action, not forcing it on them. Then they can take it or leave it, but to equivocate and allow someone to think they will make advancement is cheating them just so they will like you or so you will feel magnanimous and altruistic, but that is just your material desire for fame adoration and distinction. I am not saying it is wrong for you to have these natural material desires, but for you to conflate them for understanding what is spiritual compassion does you and others a spiritual disservice. And you should speak against those who use the rubric of spiritual compassion to be cold and callous and shame people for their current perversions whether in the mode of goodness or ignorance. But without a sharp discrimination on the subject you are spiritually useless. Of course you did call it right with Suchandra. He was WAY off.

Yeah sure, whatever. The only person you are fooling is yourself. If I didn't care, I wouldn't say anything. Good luck with the Babaji in his Bhajan Kutir routine. When the New World Odor locks High Springs down it might not seem like such a great idea. I just hope your heart doesn't have to dry up to ash before you get together with old friends for Kirtana and Prasadam once in a while in order to make some real spiritual advancement. Good luck. Hare Krsna

Beggar said. "Just don't obsess about...but you do." It might seem that way to you, but trust me I don't go out of my way to be exposed to this nonsense, it finds its way to me regardless of where I turn my head these days, and I take it as it comes as a way to serve by glorifying **(an)** acarya, highlighting important principles of sadhana he proposed, exposing the sinister movement whenever it rears its ugly head, through those witting (active) or unwitting (passive) supporters of it, and thereby giving fair warning to innocent passers by. All it takes for evil to flourish is for good people to sit back and pretend it ain't happening. I am compelled. But not obsessed.

You seem to err on the side of caution before finding fault and laying blame, but in a case of epic malfeasance and protracted unrepentant progress in their behavior it is a forgone conclusion that anything that happens through the efforts of these rogues that is not preceeded by a heartfelt repentant apology for the entire laundry list of offenses they have perpetrated, however dressed with a mood of tolerance and inclusiveness, is just what it is. Polished nonsense. I sensed equivocation and lack of a sense of gravity in your commentary on this thread, and the rest is history. You are probably not a cheerleader, but certainly seem unwilling to wrestle with the down and dirty truth of the matter. I wouldn't have pricked you so hard if I didn't think it wouldn't goad you to meaningful introspection and increase your realization of the truth. Please don't settle or compromise with these rascals just so you can hang around and give class in the temples where they routinely blaspheme Srila Prabhupada by their very existence, or next time I will be forced to load for Bear. At ease. Hare Krsna

Well Beggar, if you are implying that sticking with unwavering chastity and exclusivity to the sadhana instructions dispensed by a recognized saktavesha avatara who patiently explained the essential purport of the Creme de la Creme of all Vedic Literature, with ripened Mango fruit on top, to a bunch of monkeys like us, is somewhat akin to becoming crystalized, may my all my bodies become like a big fat diamond that can distribute his Mercy and Sri Krsna's glory in all its Multifaceted Beauty. Hare Krsna

Part of establishing Krsna Consciousness, if one considers themselves a aspiring disciple of HDG AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, is to be vigilant to explain the actions of those who continue to act irresponsibly in his name, misrepresenting him and his mission, usurping (downright stealing) his physical and intellectual properties, and sending/encouraging their cheerleaders to make excuses for their poorly intended miscreance, while trying to divert the energies of those who speak out against the charade in so many ways, such as admonishing that it is more productive for one to mind one's own business after all we only can only change ourselves and not others, or implying they are spending too much time in such activities and not enough time in other more important methods of spreading Krsna Consciousness. Comprende?

Hello! You missed my point. Nowhere from the beginning of this thread to the end did I compare my Srila Prabhupada to anyone, nor did I demean any other Vaisnava. This has happened before with you. I glorify Srila Prabhupada with NO HINT of implying he is better or worse than anyone else you hold dear, but you reflexively start in with "there are more than one acarya", "so many think their acarya is the only acarya", etc. But without cause. In other words, I cannot glorify my Acarya without failing to mention the glories of one or two other devotees who others consider acaryas without you jumping in and calling me a "prabhupada-onlyite". It gets old. Now, if you were to refer to the instance where someone minimizes my Srila Prabhupada's position based on the teachings or instructions of someone they follow as acarya, then there is room for discussion or debate seeking harmony if possible. But that is another creature.

Babhru said: "What the article means by his "presiding" over the ceremony (sounds like a simple commitment ceremony to me--have folks you care about over to your home--or the park, or wherever--and make your promises), I don't know. Do you?" The article said plainly. Santa Barbara ISKCON Temple President, Sarvatmadas,officiated. Since when is the President of an Iskcon temple in the business of officiating over anything but an official Gaudiya Vaisnava samskara ritual. Oh, yeah, since they decided they know better than the Founder-Acarya as to how to execute the duties of an Iskcon Sadhaka amongst the public. How silly of me. So no matter how nicely worded and encouraging the note from Hrydayananda was, the whole thing is a farce because the first part of the equation was not properly computed. That is, a scheming Usurper aka Zonal Acarya, who continues to this day to misrepresent a Founder-Acarya's spiritual institution, is encouraging and condoning a president of a temple of said institution as he involves himself in an unsanctioned ceremony in an effort to portray Krsna Consciousness as being all things for all people regardless of their level of surrender and committment to the actual rules and regulations of progressive spiritual life. A jolly jolly feel good effort with no real meaning. Marraige or committed union involving sex, even for committed Male/Female grhastas, is not about sanctioning indulgence in material activity, but about accepting restrictions to purify ourselves of a desire for something that holds us back from being purely situated in our constitutional position as cent per cent servant. A responsible priest is certain that participants are consciously aware of such a fact before conferring any encouragement, lest they encourage a person to believe that they are now given some divine carte blanche to enjoy to their fullest whimsy. There is a difference. These guys have no spiritual potency left ever since they disobeyed the orders of their spiritual master, and have gradually been forced to resort to compromising with every sensual whimsy of all comers just to feed their bellies. I don't revel in it. It doesn't make me happy. I just call it as I see it, and paint the true picture to serve as a cautionary tale for those still on the fence about these matters.

An Ignore list? What a concept. How do I get one. Might put me out of business though. I am pretty good at slicing and dicing my Guru's malevolent detractors, but not having the "sword of moderation", some of these masochists come inching back with no limbs like the knight from Monty Python's "The Holy Grail", trying to tell me all I inflicted was a flesh wound, and trying to bite the end of my steel tipped boot. That is when an ignore list would come in handy. I am no sadist. Enlighten me please.

Then you start your own Spiritually based system of social and religous orders, based on how you interpret Scripture. Have at it. Until you do so, I can't imagine you can get an abundance of pleasure out of criticizing a group who has already established a system and are doing their best to live it out. But perhaps you cannot give commentary on all the core Vedic scriptures, place other human beings who are completely non-conversant with Vedic culture under your wing, and traverse the globe with them chanting the glories of Sri Krsna. So I guess you have to settle for what you can. How about just getting a job? Take up tiddlywinks? Learn ayurvedic medicine to relieve mundane suffering? Anything must be better than being a nosy armchair quarterback eh?

Put down the bong. Your previous post was made with my previous post in quotations! Yet minutes later you claim it was not directed at me. Gods, forget about checking me, I know of what I speak, if you could just keep your own skittering mind in check, that would be a start. There are plenty of forums where you can speculate and blab to your heart's content where noone will call you on it, because they are all in the same self-gratificatory dimension. Why not find some birds of a feather, unless you enjoy being dressed down repeatedly, then stick around if you must endure.

Those are quite some claims. Spoken as an authority. Except it seems unlikely that a true authority who is exhorting such challenges against someone who is world reknowned by scholars and laymen alike as the foremost proponent of Gaudiya Vaisnavism, would do so in a public forum in such a whimsical and cavalier fashion, without giving examples to back up such profound and encompassing claims. You obviously have no concept of the essence of the message of the Gita, and how it can be passed along in succession in Spirit, although perhaps colored differently in letter from one realizer of the essence to another. You appear to be an empty fraud, and think others can't see your big fat bottom even when your drawers are fallen around your ankles. Don't let the door smack it on the way out.

As is your M.O. Beggar, one does not even need to HINT, forget about IMPLY that A.C. Bhakitvedanta Swami Prabhupada is the only one who may be an ideal teacher (lesser meaning of acarya in your book) and the only one speaking Hari katha in this world. Yet you invariably reply to any glorification of Swamiji's acarya-hood by implying that the glorifier is minimizing all the other wonderful acaryas by doing so. Mull it over. Sounds like Acarya-envy to me.

Mr Spacey. It is obvious you are just here to parse words and play the contrarian. For you could not have carefully read MY Original Post, and been able to imply that I am "ok with Gays" yet think Hrydayananda should "not be ok with gays". You are obviously extremely naive in a worldly sense as well as extremely misinformed about the specific spiritual-social system that Hrydayananda's professed Guru put into place. Thus you are still approaching this conversation from a mental perspective with no relevance to the particular subject matter at hand. I am not the only one who sees right through you, I am just a bit more outspoken against rubbish pukers like yourself. Having Fun yet?

Yesterday, in what was post #57 (before it was deleted), in the Top Heavy thread where Theist was getting alot of attention and feedback into his dilemna, Sonic wrote... "I'm jealous. How long do I have to be here before I can start a topic about myself and make everyone feel sorry for poor lil' ol' me? I can talk about my double hernia, my degenerative disks in my neck, my poverty, my lack of education and job skills and how I raised three kids by myself for the last 13 years. Now suddenly that changes to. "KB is certainly not feeling any empty feelings. He is quite the contented fellow and enjoying his simple life with this kids." So his old friend invites him to come visit him (they live 30 minutes from one another), and suddenly everything is A-OK, no need for association. I am sure this is uncomfortable, but heck do we want to grow and heal with each other or just mentally jack on this forum til we die of HEART FAILURE?

You have it wrong because you have not informed yourself as to principle tenets of the Socio-religious system that the "Blessor" claims to represent. If you were to use logic in your approach to including yourself in a conversation amongst others of like perspective, you would find logic where it is. But your irrational approach to this group has you projecting lack of reason upon them. If you wise up and get on the same page, you might learn something or better yet have something to offer.

Kevin Spacey wrote: It matters for those who have the perspective that AC Bhaktivedanta Swami fits the description of Acarya. It may or may not matter to those who are on the fence. Out of compassion, my Spiritual Master told us to disobey the order of Lord Krsna to let sleeping dogs lie, and try to preach to them anyway, just in case you know? Beating a dead horse is another thing.

For it is written in the Sri Isopanishad. Mantra Twelve TEXT andhaṁ tamaḥ praviśanti ye 'sambhūtim upāsate tato bhūya iva te tamo ya u sambhūtyām ratāḥ TRANSLATION Those who are engaged in the worship of demigods enter into the darkest region of ignorance, and still more so do the worshipers of the impersonal Absolute. From Purport ..."The Lord states that as soon as one reaches Him by devotional service-which is the one and only way to approach the Personality of Godhead-one attains complete freedom from the bondage of birth and death. In other words, the path of salvation from the material clutches fully depends on the principles of knowledge and detachment gained from serving the Lord. The pseudo religionists have neither knowledge nor detachment from material affairs, for most of them want to live in the golden shackles of material bondage under the shadow of philanthropic activities disguised as religious principles. By a false display of religious sentiments, they present a show of devotional service while indulging in all sorts of immoral activities. In this way they pass as spiritual masters and devotees of God. Such violators of religious principles have no respect for the authoritative ācāryas, the holy teachers in the strict disciplic succession. They ignore the Vedic injunction ācāryopāsana-"One must worship the ācārya"-and Kṛṣṇa's statement in the </B>Bhagavad-gītā</B> ( 4.2) evaṁ paramparā-prāptam, "This supreme science of God is received through the disciplic succession." Instead, to mislead the people in general they themselves become so-called ācāryas, but they do not even follow the principles of the ācāryas. These rogues are the most dangerous elements in human society. Because there is no religious government, they escape punishment by the law of the state. They cannot, however, escape the law of the Supreme, who has clearly declared in the Bhagavad-gītā that envious demons in the garb of religious propagandists shall be thrown into the darkest regions of hell (Bg. 16.19-20). Śrī Īśopaniṣad confirms that these pseudo religionists are heading toward the most obnoxious place in the universe after the completion of their spiritual master business, which they conduct simply for sense gratification.

Ditto. It is quite clear that the Vaisnava marraige samskara is meant to formally recognize and encourage a man and woman who will be endeavoring to purify their existence by sober commitment for life, and providing an opportunity for souls to take birth in Vaisnava families. Srila Prabhupada's once encouraged a sincere but naive homosexual who happened to be chanting the Maha-Mantra and coming to the temple. That homo was not willing to follow Srila Prabhupada's instructions to give up homosex to make progress. So SP suggested that at least he commit to one partner and stick with that. He compassionately did not want to break the person's spirit and advised the best of a bad bargain. He did not then hold a Marraige Yajna for that person. Nor did he ever do such a thing, or even hint it should be done. This is just another example of someone with too much intelligence trying to be all things to all people just to be liked, and calling it being a liberal Vaisnava and saving souls. BAS.