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andy108

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Everything posted by andy108

  1. It seems Suchandra has an eye for the truth sometimes. Speaks the truth even when unpalatable. G-Krpa's interview is somewhat similar and in the same vein as Hrydayananda's email missive. Mostly a show. Too little to late, but better than nothing. Suchandra doesn't want people to get hoodwinked again by this character and raises some important questions and makes good points. Especially after all the glorification of Gurukrpa that sprung up on this thread got a little heavy. I mean sure, recognize his good points, but be realistic about the Prabhu, after all he is a known manipulator. Buyer beware.
  2. Actually you are wrong. Unless a pure spiritual master or the Lord himself tells you it is Ok, go do it, you do not stoop to adharma to meet adharma. You can't have it both ways Kula. Your example would be tantamount to carte blanche for stealing from those who are stealing from Krsna by their lifestyle because of the example the Acarya cited where that went on, that you just happened to read in this forum today. If a person can hear the Lord in the heart, and is told by him to do something against rules and regs, that person may do so and expect the world to give him heat. I doubt you would condone someone today who goes out and kills someone in the sleep who they "know" killed their son in their sleep, without first arranging due process and a fair trial with a jury of their peers
  3. Quote: <table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by tackleberry Just curious. Didn't Krisha himself advocate adharmic means to achieve a dharmic end? Doesn't this show that it's only the end that matters, and if the end is dharmic, then the means wouldn't matter that much? </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> I seem to remember something about ordering Arjuna to break with Ksatriya code and kill a man while he was down and unarmed or something like that. The point Krsna is above the codes of rules and regs which define dharma for the conditioned souls, and if he does something, or orders something to be done, or his saktavesha avataric incarnations do something or allow it to go on, it is NOT ADHARMIC, but the epitome of Real Dharma. That some conditioned souls justify the examples of such transcendental activities to indulge in breaking the rules for their own gratification IS ADHARMA and they will reap the consequences down the line. Those that would take issue with Sri Krsna's methods of acting on the basis that some conditioned souls might imitate and cause trouble, well take it up with Krsna and see what he has to say, but honestly, it is your problem to come to grips with the reality of this, because HE is God and YOU are not, to think you better is kinda dumb.
  4. Well then I suggest you focus on that "maybe a little" and own it and transmute it. Not easy, but doable. And to avoid resurecting what is best left dead, be one of the to fully decipher Srila Prabhupada's antidote to the problems that (TRUST ME HE SAW TOO) which he began demanding in 1974 in response to the shenanigans and fall downs and showbottle nonsene, and did not stop til his dying day. Daiva Varnasrama Dharma. Decipher his instructions, imbibe them, implement them, and there will be no more tears on your watch. Hari Bol
  5. Yes I agree, but again you only focused on that part of what I wrote, because directly after that I affirm that your material righteousness is very valuable if it is enacted without attachment, which only happens when you firmly realize that the joke is on you too for even having any material predilection, mode of goodness, or ignorance. There is the example of a great devotee demon who taught a very valuable lesson to Lord Indra about this, and Lord Indra recognized he was being taught a lesson by a great demon, and was humbled and encouraged that he could have such a realization about his so-called goodness. When you see that the joke was on everyone involved, then you include yourself in it, and will no longer be bitter about suffering at the hands of those madmen, you will realize it was all arranged by Krsna, that Iskcon's reputation is reparable for those who will benefit from it having a good reputation, that those who look askance at Iskcon because of its troubles, were not desirous at heart for Krsna consciousness anyway, and then you can hold your righteous stance without attachment or anger and fight with glee and joy.
  6. This confirms my intuition that Spiritually, hearing from a pure neophyte is a real initiation. Of course this statment also confirms the requirement of a sincere soul to pass on the mantra in disciplic succession. As soon as the neophyte becomes insincere by rejecting orders of their Spiritual Master, they lose their link to the PURE transcendental sound current and their chanting becomes, to a greater or lesser degree, offensive. Then anyone who hears it from them only hears the mantra colored by whatever degree of offense is present.
  7. C'mon you are a big boy, don't pull this guilt trip stuff with me. Shake it off. If you see reason in what I say, just let it be and use it to your advantage instead of seeing it as some kind of personal attack. I wouldn't waste a moment pricking you if I didn't think you could benefit. Well, I do benefit from expressing myself, but that is secondary. I am trying to get you up to speed. You are going to need it. You have all the material piety down pat. If you can realize Srila Prabhupada's transcendental perogative, realize that in the end the joke is meant to be on you and your material righteousness, that demonic Hari Cash did you a favor, then you can be good without attachment and will be a hell of a warrior for Gaudiya Vaisnavism. Go ahead and take as much time to lick your wounds as you need to clean em up real good. I won't hound you anymore. Sorry if I was rough. Hare Krsna
  8. What you fail to understand is that the master seeks to instill in his disciple the following. -You are a spirit soul, not your body. -You as spirit soul are a fragmented part and parcel of the Supreme Spirit Soul. -Sri Krsna is the Supreme Spirit Soul. The whole spirit. -He has 2 energies, Yoga Maya and Maha Maya. -He is never effected by the material illusions he empowers Maha Maya to create. - You as a fragmented part and parcel, are subject to Maha Maya's illusion. - There are certain activities you can engage in, in relationship to Krsna and his Yoga Maya that will bring you out of illusion, and you will love this type of service, and once you get involved, Krsna will call off his Maha Maya energy and you will never be put into illusion again. Now, according to time place and circumstance, conditioned souls on earth are only available to understand certain parts of this essential message. The acarya, being empowered by the Lord, knows just what to say in his message. So, he comments on the scriptures, which say the same thing, but the commentary is suited to pass along as much of the essence as the recipients can grasp at the time. Thus, a SUCCESSION of Acarya's are required to fulfill the Lila of rescuing Jiva souls. The knowlege they pass along is the same in essence, with the same motivated intention and purpose. If you go down the line of Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya Acaryas, you will find that they successively championed various philisophical perspectives regarding monism and dualism. Advaita. Dvaita-Advaita. etc. Culminating in Lord Caitanya who championed Acintya BhedaAbheda. That the wandering fragmental spirit soul that we are is SIMULTANEOUSLY ONE AND YET DIFFERENT with the Supreme Brahman, Sri Krsna. Do you understand now?
  9. Oh well, seems you have learned very little these past few days. You cherry pick the portion of my quote that will enable you to further your "vent my frustration agenda" without considering at whose expense you lay the blame of having no common sense. A saktavesha avatara. And ignore the part that supports your desire to see things work out a certain way in the future, which your condemnation of the past will do little to further. Talk about lacking common sense. And here is another example of where your highly touted "common sense" is anything but. That you could consider an unrepentant non-spiritual huckster shyster disobeyer of his Guru's orders, and theif of Guru's properties who has misrepresented his Guru's institution plainly for all to see to this day. That you could consider that he penned that letter with innocent intention of "encouraging them to seek spirituality", not to mention you don't know whether he has vetted said homos to see if they agree to the principle of restricting their gratification to make advancement. This shows lack of savvy. Lack of common sense. That you are easily still a victim of "Acaryadeva's" wiles. Do you want to be continue to be a victim of Dreaded Acarya Syndrome all your life? Wasn't HariKesh enough? Or are you secretly harboring a deep buried desire to have what they had, and would condone any nonsense if you could have someone wash your lotus feet and praise your glories? Sorry but what else can I think unless you prove me wrong by exercising some real sensibility?
  10. Did you bother to read the rest of that post I made? Because it sure doesn't look like it from your hurried response.
  11. Hey Beggar, did you miss this post, or is silence equal to agreement? <table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by beggar In those days I don't remember anyone conceiving of anything like a rtvik program. No one even thought that there would be a moratorium on initiations after Srila Prabhupada departed although in retrospect that seems reasonable. </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Srila Prabhupada simply described the system he had been using for years as a ritvik system, which is what it was. I have closely anaylyzed the various permutations of the word Ritvj from multiple sanskrit dictionarys. The ritvj is mentioned not only as a priest or offciator, but that they due their duty "on the behalf of the Acarya". To state that using the ritvik system after Srila Prabhupada's departure would equate to a moratorium on initiations is a fallacy. If you meant that many of the proxy initiators and their already fanatic groupies would consider ritvik to be depriving those holy rollers of their status of Initiating Gurus, which was a forgone conclusion in their minds whether they spoke of it or not, that would make more sense. Thus moratorium on initiations would fit, because Prabhupada was clarifying to their feeble minds that they were never initiating anything except their own path to hell if they thought they were the initiator.
  12. You keep shooting yourself in the foot. We offer him bhoga, though he doesn't need to eat. A Saktavesha avatara said it was just fine for Bhaktas under certain conditions to steal to serve the Lord. He sanctioned such himself. You would be much more effective Kula, if you would give up this campaign against what someone 1000 times more devoted to Krsna than you did in the past, and focus on what he told us to do in the future, which matches your mood. No more funny business. Pious DVD. Does this make sense to you?
  13. Where is Theist today? He confirmed my opinion yesterday that those who were working directly under the care of Srila Prabhupada and serving his Vapu were carefully sanctioned to do such things by dint of Prabhupada being uttama saktavesha empowered. When these guys were caught making a mistake and promised to SP's face they wouldn't do it again and asked for more service, SP forgave them and gave it to them. Multiple times in some cases. If they were breaking the bogus "so called civilized" rules of some region, SP AND SUPERSOUL DON'T FORGET, weighed the consequences and made the call. If there was some good ground to be gained, and the infraction would be forgotten in course of time and wouldn't affect the long term future, SUPERSOUL MADE THE CALL. IT ASTOUNDS ME THAT SO MANY CAN GET SO LOST IN THEIR SELF-RIGHTEOUS TIRADE AND FORGET THAT SUPERSOUL DOESN'T PLAY BY YOUR IDEA OF WHAT IS RIGHT!! Anyway that era was over when SP's Vapu vanished, vamoose. He left vani for us neophytes and lukewarm Madhyamas heralding a new era. Strictly pious DVD. Which everyone in these discussions except Caturbahu Das conveniently avoids bringing to the forefront, in order to repeatedly vent steam due to past bitterness, spinning in circles. Truly a shame.
  14. Quote: <table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Fact is that the KC movement is never going to become mainstream in today's scientific world. The KC movememt is a cult and always will be a cult for a counterculture of people who drop out of the mainstream society. </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Yes, that is because the movement proper was never meant to integrated with the already crystalized mainstream society. THROW OUT THE WEST! proclaimed the Founder-Acarya of Iskcon. The Cult of Bhakti is for the few, the surrendered, and thus the dedicated. All mainstream gets is the chance to hear the Holy Name resound as the Harinama party ambles up the road, maybe taste some prasadam sweets the devotees hand out, and then it is back to sleep for the sheep, the sukriti attached to their aura unbeknownst to them. Those are the only intended consequences, and thus the Means creates the intended End of suffering eventually. The End thus justifies the means. Unless you are looking to be the most popular and beloved of the general Kali-yuga populace. All things to all people, afraid to speak the plain truth lest it lose you a vote for nicest guy in your neighborhood. Whiners need not apply for Bhakti Yoga discipleship.
  15. Yes, that is because the movement proper was never meant to integrated with the already crystalized mainstream society. THROW OUT THE WEST! proclaimed the Founder-Acarya of Iskcon. The Cult of Bhakti is for the few, the surrendered, and thus the dedicated. All mainstream gets is the chance to hear the Holy Name resound as the Harinama party ambles up the road, maybe taste some prasadam sweets the devotees hand out, and then it is back to sleep for the sheep, the sukriti attached to their aura unbeknownst to them. Those are the only intended consequences, and thus the Means creates the intended End of suffering eventually. The End thus justifies the means. Unless you are looking to be the most popular and beloved of the general Kali-yuga populace. All things to all people, afraid to speak the plain truth lest it lose you a vote for nicest guy in your neighborhood. Whiners need not apply for Bhakti Yoga discipleship.
  16. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. You can lead a whore to culture but you can't make her think. You can lead a guy to the Acarya but you can't force the link.
  17. It appears H "Swami" had this letter carefully crafted and planned out from the get-go so as to be able to claim plausible denial, and keep everyone that matters to his Prabhupada Vani Minimization Campaign assuaged and captured by his sophistry. The Iskconers stay put frozen like deer in the headlights of his Equivocally ambiguous non position, and the queers feel encouraged that they are fine the way they are, no need for change, and Krsnaloka is already attained. The only people who see through this charlatans charade are the few, the proud, the impotent, the pundits with no DVD community. But at least we verbally lambaste him with flare and gusto.
  18. Srila Prabhupada simply described the system he had been using for years as a ritvik system, which is what it was. I have closely anaylyzed the various permutations of the word Ritvj from multiple sanskrit dictionarys. The ritvj is mentioned not only as a priest or offciator, but that they due their duty "on the behalf of the Acarya". To state that using the ritvik system after Srila Prabhupada's departure would equate to a moratorium on initiations is a fallacy. If you meant that many of the proxy initiators and their already fanatic groupies would consider ritvik to be depriving those holy rollers of their status of Initiating Gurus, which was a forgone conclusion in their minds whether they spoke of it or not, that would make more sense. Thus moratorium on initiations would fit, because Prabhupada was clarifying to their feeble minds that they were never initiating anything except their own path to hell if they thought they were the initiator.
  19. I apologize Sambya. I was in defensive mode and mistook your inquiry, though presented in a challenging mood, as criticism. What you say here is very true. I am no sanskrit scholar. I have a strong intermediate grasp of the length and breadth of English language and grammar. That is it. What has allowed me to cut through the need for Sanskrit scholarship and has enabled me to have faith in the translations of these Verses, without spending a lifetime learning sanskrit so I can double check each one for myself is the following. I started with the simple things. This swami requested I chant a simple mantra, which was easy for even me to verify the translation of, and gave me an idea of how it might affect me if I happened to be chanting it from a position of sincere submissive inquiry into its mysteries. I did, and he was right. He also, in English, requested I follow some other easy to understand instructions, and that in doing so, my character would change in certain favorable ways, that I would become purified of unfavorable material attachments, and that the essential import of the flowery Vedic scriptures would be revealed in the heart of my mind. It worked. Then he assured me that his English translations and purports were dictated to the heart of his mind by the speaker of the Gita Himself, due to his fully surrendered communion in service to his servants. That if I continued to read them, in sequence, they would be plainly understandable, increase my knowledge of my self, the Lord, and the activities I can engage in to strengthen my relationship with the Lord. And that even the nuances of Sanskrit would become apparent, if I had the desire to concentrate on that aspect. There are as many ways to interpret the dialogue between Lord Krsna and Arjuna, Srila Sukadeva Goswami and Pariksit Maharaja, etc. as there are embodies souls on the planet. There are many Muni's who are sanskrit scholars, and they all have a different take. This is interpretation. Not translation. Translation comes through either being told what it means by authority, and repeating that purely, or by receiving dictation by the Lord in the heart. All else is speculative interpretation. Please read the story at the following link that describes how a very advanced Indian bodied Sanskrit scholar and confidential disciple of AC Bhaktivedanta Swami sought out his retired Sanskrit teacher from college, considered a foremost scholar in all of India, and what transpired in their discussions regarding why Srila Prabhupada's tranlated devanagari text in such seemingly unorthodox ways, like "sambhutim" and "sambhutyam" from Isopanishad verse 12, and I assure you it will leave you breathlessly in bliss. http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-06/editorials998.htm
  20. Well he uses the Pronoun "They" in the next sentence that predicates the subject sentence that began with "The soldiers". "They must be placed in a normal condition of life...." Then he describes a normal condition of life as being in one of any of the 4 varnas. Since the topic of the purport was the fight against maya, And earlier he said "in our fight with māyā we should not be in a position in which our strength, enthusiasm and senses will be unable to fight vigorously. And earlier he said "our KC movement" has declared war against her. I deduce he was referring to everyone as a soldier to make the point. The word Sensual has been pigeonholed by common American usage, but it refers broadly to all the senses. Remember this purport was written in 1976. This was long after he was ordering his disciples to assume varna according to their actual qualifications and predilections. He was telling his brahminically inclined that some of them may have to learn various arts, including military arts, to be able to teach them. Down the DVD rabbit hole we go. Like the old expression about digging a hole to China, only this one will pop you out somewhere in a pasture in Gokula Vrndavana.
  21. Well from everything I have read, even reaching the very beginning of Madhyama implies a NO FALL STATURE. But it is never explictly stated in a full sentence by Srila Prabhupada that a madhyama never falls. If I were to analyze the range of neophyte, there would be the worst rascal who disobeys the spiritual master and fights to harm his movement with no remorse on one end, and a pure advanced neophyte like Tapana Misra or Candraśekhara Prabhus. I generally agree that a pure devotee of any status, when authorized by his Guru, can give real initiatory Divya Jnana by sharing Mantra with an aspirant, and as we know, they cannot personally assist that aspirant to an adhikari higher than their own through their insufficient siksa guidance. If only Srila Prabhupada had ever showed any sign of doing so but he didn't ever authorize a Diksa guru. And how could he when he himself admonished everyone immortaly in his purports to only select an uttama as spiritual master. I think Gour Govinda was a Madhyama adhikari, and was probably authorized by SP to initiate his own disciples, Supersoul saw that GGM would wind up breaking with Iskcon and having his own Matha anyway, even though he personally did all he could to stay in Iskcon and work with the Goombah Boys Club.
  22. There you go again. Saying Srila Prabhupada passed them off as diksa gurus, when the only definitions he ever gave for Diksa guru makes that an impossibility. You have no evidence that he ever authorized anyone to be Diksa Guru or Appointed anyone Diksa Guru. Devotees have practically written doctoral Theses on the subject and the evidence is hard, clear, and unambiguous. Of course we do have evidence that he called the people initiating on his behalf Ritviks, and representatives of the Acaraya, which is well in accordance with the descriptions of ritviks in Bhagavatam and Sanskrit dictionary. And all anyone was qualified to do anyway. Your word, or the evidence? HMMMMM... So he never cared much about the formality. What planet were you living on? He cared a great deal about it. Instituted it carefully, gave reams of instructions about it, left institution wide instructions about how they were to be managed in the future. Please, these statements make you look silly. Granted, he deemphasised it IN RELATION to receiving the transcendental knowledge through Siksa, and called the sincere response to his message "real initiation". But both angles of vision are easily rectified simultaneously without having to concoct reasons to change his system.
  23. Well Theist, being that your mental posture is so clear and on the money, I'd say that your following the brahminical discipline of Hearing has paid off, your Chanting is in harmony with HIS version, and though you may not be highly qualified according to your varna, you are closer to leaping being a solid disciple than you might think. Advanced Neophyte bordering on the irrevocable stature of Madhyama. Slow and steady wins the race. Srila Prabhupada expected us to create a scenario where, under restriction, our material desires were to be met quite nicely during the mixed devotion stage. The following purport says it all. Books : Srimad-Bhagavatam : Canto 8: "Withdrawal of the Cosmic Creations" : SB 8.2: The Elephant Gajendra's Crisis : SB 8.2.30 : PURPORT : In the fighting between the elephant and the crocodile, the difference was that although the elephant was extremely powerful, he was in a foreign place, in the water. During one thousand years of fighting, he could not get any food, and under the circumstances his bodily strength diminished, and because his bodily strength diminished, his mind also became weak and his senses less powerful. The crocodile, however, being an animal of the water, had no difficulties. He was getting food and was therefore getting mental strength and sensual encouragement. Thus while the elephant became reduced in strength, the crocodile became more and more powerful. Now, from this we may take the lesson that in our fight with māyā we should not be in a position in which our strength, enthusiasm and senses will be unable to fight vigorously. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has actually declared war against the illusory energy, in which all the living entities are rotting in a false understanding of civilization. The soldiers in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement must always possess physical strength, enthusiasm and sensual power. To keep themselves fit, they must therefore place themselves in a normal condition of life. What constitutes a normal condition will not be the same for everyone, and therefore there are divisions of varṇāśrama—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacarya, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa.
  24. While staying in a temple recently, I came upon an old Back to Godhead issue which featured a 6 page spread based on some 3d modeling Saduputa Das created to illustrate the mechanics of the universe, all based on the 5th canto. It was explained in logical scientific detail. It showed concentric rings, the furthest being a mountain range upon which the wheel of the chariot which carried the sun rode upon. Each ocean/mountain combo was rendered nicely. It showed how the moon was positioned on a plane compared to the earth and sun whereby at times it was further above the earth than the sun, and everything. It was masterful. I have never heard anyone reference it when defending the Vedic version of the mechanics of the universe. On my list of things to do is to obtain a copy of that Back to Godhead A.S.A.P.
  25. Krsna's Senapati General and Saktavesha avatar allows Gurukripa to do things he knew were not always in line with Kali Yuga society norms, (remember the "I don't care how many girlfriends they have" line?) He accepts the money, and entrusts Gurukripa with great responsibilities henceforward. And this is not blessed by the Lord? It was his internal potency that allowed these rascals to get away with what they did as part of the purification of their demoniac hearts due to their rather indirect service to his avatara. You are entitled to your opinion, but it defies logic. I agree that Krsna told us, through Prabhupada, not to do it again. His DVD instructions were unequivocal. Do good, Be good, set the ideal example. No more funny business. There is no historical evidence, from the document (list) itself, nor from Srila Prabhupada's mouth, that it was a list of initiating Gurus. An initiating guru is a diksa guru. Srila Prabhupada never ever named any of his disciples as Diksa Guru. Especially the enemies he held closer to his chest than his friends!!! He may have used their natural antisocial/criminal tendencies to his advantage in various capacities, but never acknoweldged them Diksa Guru. Gurukrpa's testimony just confirms what HUNDREDS of devotees present at the time have corroborated, that disciples only initiated disciples on Srila Prabhupada's behalf, and were there to mentor/monitor them in Srila Prabhupada's sadhana program. Not make up their own. Srila Prabhupada could offer "sanyassa" to anyone, whether they would be able to maintain the standards of the order or not. To imply that SP would try and "pass someone off" as Diksa guru who didn't actually have the capacity as an uttama adhikari to transfer Divya Jnana on their own is rather insulting to his intelligence. Such is an impossibility by spiritual principle, and if I know that, he knew it.
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