andy108

Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja was given the opportunity to reveal to the world the unrivalled perfection of Srila Prabhupada's masterful translation from Sanskrit into English of Bhagavad Gita. Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja was given the service by Srila Prabhupada of translating all of His books into the Orissan language. Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja was a great scholar who could write and speak in five languages: Orissan, Hindi, Bengali, English, and Sanskrit. He got his degree in English from the University with a minor in Sanskrit. He translated Srila Prabhupada’s Bhagavad Gita with the greatest love and devotion and attention for detail. Because of His vast command of languages He was able to notice little details that others may have overlooked. One thing that was a cause of great transcendental concern for Him was the fact that when Srila Prabhupada translated a word from Sanskrit to English it would not be the same if Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja translated the Sanskrit word directly to Oriya. In other words the English word that Srila Prabhupada used to explain the Sanskrit word had an entirely different meaning than the Oriya word that would normally be used as a translation of this same Sanskrit word. Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja was concerned that in translating the literal English into Oriya that many Pandits and Scholars would complain that this was not an accurate translation. Since Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja did not want to change one single word of His beloved Spiritual Master's books but at the same time wanted to be able to defend the scholarship of His Guru Maharaja beyond the shadow of a doubt. He devised a plan for writing down all of the so-called contradictions in a list until he completed the entire work. Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja then went to a little village to see the now retired Sanskrit professor who had taught Him Sanskrit in college. This man was considered one of the foremost authorities on the Sanskrit Language in India having one of the largest personal libraries on the subject, including one of the best collections of Sanskrit to English Dictionaries. Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja knew that this Sanskrit scholar’s grasp of Sanskrit to English translation would provide him with the evidence he needed to prove the authority of Srila Prabhupada's work. After about ten days, Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja returned to the little mud hut that we lived in with the Sanskrit professor in tow. The Sanskrit professor introduced himself (I apologize but unfortunately I cannot remember his name) and began glorifying His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada's masterful translation work. The Professor told me that he started studying Sanskrit when he was five years old; now in his late 70's he had been studying the language for over 70 years. He told me how on the first review of his dictionaries he could not find the translations that Srila Prabhupada had made from Sanskrit to English, but he said that Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja kept encouraging him to keep looking, assuring him that he would find the translation if he looked long and hard enough. The professor said he would have given up if it were not for Srila Gour Govinda Maharajas insistence that if His Guru Maharaja translated the words like that it had been accurate and that if he looked hard enough he would find the translations. Then the professor told me that he found each and every translation that Srila Prabhupada had made from Sanskrit into English. The professor told me that these translations that your Guru has made are the most obscure and brilliant explanations of these words from Sanskrit to English that he had ever seen. The professor admitted that with all of his education and training he could not have thought of these obscure and brilliant meanings that so perfectly expressed the inner truths of the mysteries of the Bhagavad Gita verses in a way that the usual words used in English would not have done. The professor then said having seen this translation work of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada he was convinced that Srila Prabhupada was the greatest Sanskrit scholar in the history of civilization and must have been directly enlightened by the Supreme Lord Krishna to accomplish this work.

Raghu, You may be polarized on the mental plane by tendency (intellectual class), but the until you are relieved of the ignorant presumption that a person born in a sudra family is necessarily unqualified to be trained by a brahmana when his true inner nature is discovered as a mismatch for his birth circumstances, then perhaps you should just be a good sudra, stop reading the vedas, and take up some menial service under the direction of a broad-minded Madhva of Gaudiya Vaisnava Brahmana until you gain enough humility to throw you from your high horse and get with the program. Then we could start you on Bhagavad Gita and let your intellectual qualities flourish unbound by the ropes of your sanctimony.

Nice diversionary tactic. Shiva actually corrected me in favor of YOUR position that Srila Bhakitvedanta Swami did disagree with certain conclusions purported by the authorized translations of Madhva's doctrine. But since we clearly show our understanding and acceptance of these differences yet point to how the Gaudiya view generally accepts and adds to the teachings of Sri Madhva, you take exception and seek to divert from this MAIN POINT. When describing the enemies of Gaudiya Vaisnavism, Srila Bhaktivinode is not speaking of the broad-minded brahminical disciples of Sri Madhva, but those that adhere to and promulgate the false-crystalized tradition of caste-by-birth ONLY. Which is the scourge of India and all the world as it seeks to restrict the Lord in his dance of distribution of Love of God to petty mundane parameters.

This conclusion is unsubstantiated according to the research. This is made clear in the article I linked to. http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET9906/ET15-4106.html There was no wholesale REJECTION, although that would surely buttress your point if there was. The bias of those who claim such is apparent when such extremes are read into the actually ambiguous circumstances. To ascribe such caprice to a great soul like Bipin Bihari Goswami that on mere suspicion he would publicly reject his disciple is telling of their agenda. In any event, if you read the most objective biography of Srila Bhaktivinode, you would see why his son BST viewed Srila Jagganatha Babaji as his father's Preeminent Siksa Guru, which is simply because his Father drew more inspiration from His Siksa in his later years than he did from his Diksa Guru. Of course those who support the stifling "tradition" of disciplic succession by caste Diksa as being as or more important than Siksa are blind to these simple realities of inspiration of the Heart being more important to a devotee than who first gave them a mantra.

All true, simultaneously. A contradiction? Yes and No.

Ah, Kulapavana, Founder-Acarya of the Brahma-Gaudiya Sampradaya. Oh but wait, there are great expansions and additions that Mahaprabhu made available to the world compared to the revelations given originally by Lord Brahma and has offered different moods of service also. So why don't we drop all pretenses to being part of Lord Brahma's lineage while we are at it. Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami was just a silly sentimentalist pandering to the masses right? What a crock. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur is on record glorifying his Diska Guru's qualities and there is no actual factual evidence presented by any bonafide researcher that he "rejected his diksa guru" as the myth goes. The truth goes more like this according to the schollary research presented by Bhaktarupa das and Rupa Vilasa Das. Which is consistent with Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's and Bhaktivedanta's mission to emphasize the importance of Siksa. And as far as Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati's position regarding Srila Bipin Bihari For one looking to win a popularity contest, controversy is anethma. To one seeking to give the most treasurable and generally unappreciated and unwanted gift, controversy is lived, eat, breathed, and has no deleterious effect. The real lineage is never fragmented but consistently passes on the essence to those receptive in an unbroken chain. The succession gets broken when there is noone left with a sincere desire to take the gifts available, and thus the one's in possession of the gift experience separation and are forced into isolation due to the circumstance and then eventually get reunited with the Lord in Lila of Union instead of vipralumba. It is NOT that the ones with the gift can't figure out how to give it to willingly receptive surrendered souls. Or that they whimsically break from tradition in a controversial way, thus ruining the whole thing. That makes no sense.

The disciples being instructed may have been those who under SP's watchful eye had been proceeding through their lessons systematically under his care, and maybe not. Your point is taken on that issue. The real point is that he sometimes divulged information and made points based on scripture that would seem to contradict the information a person who was only on chapter 3 of BG. My prescription is for people starting NOW. Reading conversations could definitely be confusing until a foundation is reached. Even lectures for that matter, unless the subject matter the lecture was based on was current reading material. Do you mean to tell me that from when you were a beginner Bhakta you did not skip around and were perfectly systematic? Did you read the BG As it is, and SB 1-10 in order? Did you do this before reading the works of Gaudiya Math devotees that SP warned in general not even to hear from? I didn't. But by Srila Prabhupada's mercy, I saw the error of my ways, and began doing what you say you are doing now. And after reading BG twice and then the 1st 2 cantos of SB, I had a memory purification and was set straight. Then went on from there.

This Just in! The most recent Troll to crawl into this forum has exclaimed... (Fabricated because HE SAYS SO) (According to the great Justinius who presents no evidence.) ( Take his word for it) (OOOOOHHHH, a direct order from on high. You best listen up "BUB" when the great Justinius Blows hard to Bloviate. But now we see the real truth. The self-proclaimed expert on propriety of Guru parampara has proclaimed the entire Gaudiya branch of Lord Brahma's Sampradaya to be OUT OF ORDER, imaginatively fabricated their philosophy and are plagiarists. Why? Because he can't stand the idea of Love of God being offered to someone who was not born in a strict Brahmin caste family. The ritual confers the inclination and ability to know and love the Supreme Being, for all others are out of Luck. Translation: If you were too dumb to just believe the accusation the Great Justinius has made against the Gaudiyas, maybe you need to read it in all Capital letters. That will make it sink in. Well, Beggar sums up the situation regarding little Justin when he says. And Theist has the capstone of all advice on the matter.

Thanks Shiva and Theist, I actually knew of those differences in general, but had no access to the evidence. This fit my earlier example of how Sri Madhva was pulling a Sankaracarya act by seeking to gradually elevate his audience, meeting them in their crystalized traditional miasm and adding what they were ready to hear. This whole issue makes me wonder if there is a single personalist outside of those who caught wind of Srila Bhaktivinode's revolution who considers their self a brahmana who is in reality NOT a smarta. Talk about a dark age. The Jesus Christ influenced intellects of the Constitutional Republic of the United States of America are more inclined to support a philosophy of assessing and engaging people strictly according to observed qualities of character and inclination than the entire Bigoted "intellectual" claass of the continent of India who have had access to the full panorama of Vedic scriptures. Dark, paradoxical, IRONIC, and fitting actually.

The problem really comes from reading his books somewhat piecemeal and helter-skelter, while simultaneously randomly sampling somewhat more confidential utterances meant for more advanced disciples such as room conversations and morning walks, before a solid basic foundational conception has been put into place. For, Srila Prabhupada's actual advice was to start with Bhagavad Gita. Read that til it is comprehended in its entirety, and then one may then graduate to the lotus feet of Lord Krsna, the Srimad Bhagavatam Chapters 1 and 2. Which Srila Prabhupada claims summarize in detail the entire Gaudiya Vaisnava Philosophy. Concomittant with this reading, one is free to read Krishna Book, Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Nectar of Instruction, and Sri Isopanishad as supplements at any time. Also, and adding the hearing of public lectures should be suitable. Once such a foundation is built, (BG and SB 1&2), the rest of the Bhagavatam may be discovered, IN ORDER. Sometimes adding reading room conversations/morning walks could be confusing unless one was weaned off the Pablum properly, since they often tended to be intimate and specific to those present. The CC comes last. As for how to weave in Nectar of Devotion gets weaved in, I have not heard properly on the matter to comment.

Prove it. Here are the core reasons why Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami claimed succession from Sri Madhva's expansive additions to Sri Brahma's sampradaya. He claimed to follow in the footsteps of Sri Madhvacarya in the following manner. from Purport to SB 1.4: The Appearance of Sri Narada : SB 1.4.17, SB 1.4.18, SB 1.4.17-18 <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote: <table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> The greatest philanthropists are those transcendentalists who represent the mission of Vyāsa, Nārada, Madhva, Caitanya, Rūpa, Sarasvatī, etc. They are all one and the same. The personalities may be different, but the aim of the mission is one and the same, namely, to deliver the fallen souls back home, back to Godhead. </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> And he did not "disagree" with his teachings. As each Acarya is wont to do when a particular audience is receptively prepared, he added a more confidential aspect from the treasurehouse of Love of God. Sri Madhvacarya promulgated personalism, but Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu expanded on this to enhance it and Srila Prabhupada followed in these footsteps. Bhaktivinoda Thakur writes: “Madhavendra Puri was a well-known sannyasi of the Madhva-sampradaya. His grand-disciple was Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Prior to his appearance, there was no evidence of prema-bhakti in the Madhva line. In his verse, ayi dina-dayardra-natha (CC Madhya 4.197), the seed of the religious doctrines of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu can be found.” Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati similarly states, “Madhavendra Puri was the first shoot of the desire tree of divine love that came out of the Madhva lineage. Prior to his appearance, there was no sign of the conjugal mood of devotion in the Madhva line. http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:h9t00B03NdEJ:www.gaudiya.com/pdf/Is_the_Gaudiya_Vaishnava_sampradaya_connected_to_the_Madhva_line.pdf+tripurari+%2B%22disciplic+succession%22+ramanuja+madhva+adwaita&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us This is not to say that Srila Madvhacaraya had no inkling of the deepest mysteries of Sri Sri Radha-Krsna's pastimes, yet the Lord did not inspire him to divulge these things directly due to the lack of need/desire in the hearts of the audience at that time. This is similar by indirect analogy to the actions of Sankaracarya, considered and incarnation of Lord SaduSiva, and Buddha, another incarnation of the Lord, who respectively preached Impersonalism and return to Vedas, and Voidism and rejection of Vedas. Yet Sankaracarya is on record claiming that the impersonal brahman is sourced as Sri Krsna the Supreme ParaBrahman. Once, and in an obscure instance. And Buddha was in the same way doing triage upon an audience who was using the authority of the Vedas to aggrandize and degrade themselves and the world.

He claimed to follow in the footsteps of Sri Madhvacarya in the following manner. from Purport to SB 1.4: The Appearance of Sri Narada : SB 1.4.17, SB 1.4.18, SB 1.4.17-18 And he did not "disagree" with his teachings. He added Sri Madhvacarya promulgated personalism, but Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu expanded on this to enhance it. Bhaktivinoda Thakur writes: “Madhavendra Puri was a well-known sannyasi of the Madhva-sampradaya. His grand-disciple was Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Prior to his appearance, there was no evidence of prema-bhakti in the Madhva line. In his verse, ayi dina-dayardra-natha (CC Madhya 4.197), the seed of the religious doctrines of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu can be found.” Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati similarly states, “Madhavendra Puri was the first shoot of the desire tree of divine love that came out of the Madhva lineage. Prior to his appearance, there was no sign of the conjugal mood of devotion in the Madhva line. <nobr>.</nobr>

The truth can hurt, if a person wishes to continue being cheated, but it must be spoken forthright anyway. Who I speak to is the group of individuals who had the inner mettle to resist the facist interpretation of Srila Prabhupada's institutional orders, and skeptically and patiently gather the facts as to what he really ordered, and why. They, as a group, have the potential to get together and "do it right the first time." Create the prototype according to the instructions, and then offer it as shelter to all comers. Worrying about what this hypothetica mataji's feelings about her sham marriage, or that bhakta's feelings avout loss of his karmi job is a sentimental but counterproductive exercise. They made their choices. Is doing nothing going to even have the potential to offer these victims better direction in the future?

Well Beggar, it is too bad you can't apply your broadness of vision to accept the necessity Srila Bhaktisiddhanta felt when initiating an institutional program, despite his famous speech on what such will inevitably result in? Of course if you were to do this, you would have to get off the fence, and be favorable to every institutional order that Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami gave, including for ritvik initiations in his Iskcon institution. Of course such a move will leave you little latitude to remain artificially "above the fray", but to simply stand on the madhyama platform firmly, extending a hand to the neophytes who need the institution that those who were certainly more advanced and devoted to the Lord than you saw the absolute necessity of implementing at all risk, and spilling of gallons of their own blood sweat and tears.

So your arrogant presumption as to your ability to have assessed the character of each person who Bhaktivedanta Swami awarded a Brahmana thread to is an indication of your... 1. Elevated character due to your advanced birth in this lifetime? 2. Vedic scholarship? 3. Qualification to be taken seriously? 4. Suitability to by chastised by Lord Yamaraja for blashpheming a pure devotional servant of the Lord?

"Impersonal oneness must be true, but simultaneously the absolute Truth may be a person (Krishna). I guess that must be possible.." Everything has a cause. People create apple pies, space-stations, paint from herbs, masterpieces of art. Do you know any people who can create countless planets, hang them in space, create countless bodily species on these planets, and organize the spirits to animate them and leave the bodies in dust in such perfect syncronicity? Even using Logic, we must deduce that some person has the intelligence to cause this effect you see. If that person is not the absolute be all and end all of Personalities, well... And one other thing, being an average good person builds pious credits and good karma, and since what comes around goes around, one must experience the reactions/consequences of their good karma as well. This is a scriptural basic. Liberation is ultimately having no binding material reaction to anything one does in the material realm. One can only be protected from being forced to experience reactions to their activities in the material realm by the Grace of the Absolute Person. Serving Him has its own unique consequences, and always promoting an increase of love and ecstasy instead of some troublesome obligation to receiving the pre-destined robotic results of good or bad deeds.

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/newsletters-journals/39302-there-institutionalization-gaudiya-vaisnavism-before-srila-prabhupada-became.html

An old Audarya Thread which relates to Current topics of Disciplic Succession.

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:h9t00B03NdEJ:www.gaudiya.com/pdf/Is_the_Gaudiya_Vaishnava_sampradaya_connected_to_the_Madhva_line.pdf+tripurari+%2B%22disciplic+succession%22+ramanuja+madhva+adwaita&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

The people who are inwardly sincere about understanding the true personalist philosophy which is the fruit of the Brahma Sampradaya, and the successive and progressive revelations of that truth which have occured with each Acarya's offering, as they patiently worked through the millenia with the prevailing mentality of the audience of their particular time, place, and circumstance, in order to bring said audience from the most rudimentary and relative impersonal realizations of truth to culminate in the sublime knowledge of Acintya BedhaAbheda (Personal simultaneous oneness and difference with the Supreme Spirit) , will read or will have read my simple explanation near the beginning of page one of this thread, and benefitted. I was responding to those so proud of their so-called understanding of Sri Madhava's position and wrong-headed interpretation that the their chosen acarya was the be all and end all revelator of the highest absolute conception. I had no illusion that those adhering to such a crystalized view, which only suits their ability to assume a superior position, would choose to see that the progressive succession of Brahma Sampradaya Acaryas in this dark age had their work cut out for them to guide the honest (brahminical) but ignorant truth seekers of this age gradually from the most rudimentary impersonal conceptions of transcendence to the full spotless personal spiritual conception of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. For any conception that does not include the understanding of the fragmental Jiva soul's Simultaneous Oneness and Difference with the Original Pure Spiritual Person, cannot possibly offer a relationship with such person, and the propounders of such impersonalist philosophy, however advanced, can only point those listening to their expositions on "transcendence" to their own self. Which is inherently a selfish act, however subtle and well intentioned. Thus strewn throughout the centuries are those who took to their acarya's instructions diligently and garnered some transcendental light of knowledge of impersonal brahman, yet stopped there to rest on those laurels. What we have here is a similar situation to the Pharisies and Sadducees of the Hebrew lands of Yore who became so comfortable, proud, and certain of their position, that when the one prophesied to come save them from engaging in moralism and ritual for the sake of ritual morality only, and provide them with the understanding of how to use such to attain an understanding of eternity in loving service to The Trancendental Person, were too stuck in their self-righteous lifestyle to pay heed, and actually conspired to violently rid themselves of this so called Messenger from God who sought to convince the mass of people who honored and worshipped Pharisaic law and supported the lifestyle choices of the "Priestly class" that there was a better way. This is why the Smarta Caste viewpoint, which considers birth heredity the defining and exclusive qualification a soul must posess in order to live the life divine, is a sure by-product of Mayavadi impersonalism, is considered the most dangerous impediment to the formation of attachment to Bhakti Yoga Proper, and the last snare of Maya. To think that that which is not material is so unknowable that whatever one wishes to imagine its form should be, is as worthwhile and simultanously worthless as any other imagination, because "whatever" is absolute, it cannot possibly have an absolute personal form. An impersonalist can never lift anyone past their own relative realization that for all they can tell, they are as God as it gets. Bhakti yogis can influence ANYONE FROM ANY CASTE, CREED, NATIONALITY, CULTURE, AND DEGRADED BEGINNINGS, to realize they are not their body, are essentially equal in QUALITY with the Original Supreme Spiritual Person (God or Krsna), and allow them to gradually purify their perhaps degraded material tendencies through dedicated service to Krsna while tasting transcendental bliss along the way. The fact that some were offered this path, yet were NOT SINCERE ABOUT ACCEPTING THE DISCIPLINE BUT ONLY MADE A SHOW OF IT IN ORDER TO GARNER FAME, ADORATION, DISTINCTION, AND NAIVE DISCIPLES TO BOSS AROUND, is often used by impersonalist philosophers to point fault at the Acarya who promulgated Lord Caitanya's sublime message. But to what end? By broadly condemning the process because of the coordinated efforts of cheaters, all that is left is for people to TURN TO THEM FOR ANSWERS. And their philosophy being impersonal and a dead end, is no better a substitute, but it serves the impersonalist because they now have someone to pay attention TO THEM. Sorry Boys. Just tellin it like it is. To be fair, it is a rare soul who understands the sublime conclusion of the Bhagavad Gita which the Brahma Sampradaya Acarya's have spilled gallons of blood to insert into our dull human consciousness, but they are out there, and those who sincerely long for something more than a watered down dead end philosophy like Impersonalism in any of its forms, will find them. Those not quite ready will linger with the Smartas until they find out the joke is on them, and they aren't that Smart after all. An eternal personal relationship with a real person awaits, and you don't have to be born in a family of caste brahmins, become a Sanskrit scholar and read all the Puranas and upanishads in order to qualify. For in this degraded age, there is only one method which assures success in this endeavor to any and all comers. Just chant Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare, Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare. Hear from the Acarya AC Bhaktivedanta Swami who is the most current link in the Brahma Sampradaya who presented the sublime doctrine of simultaneous oneness and difference as first expressed by the Golden Avatara of Devotion, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Hear from his books Bhagavad Gita As it is, Srimad Bhagavatam, and the Teachings of Lord Caitanaya, which are the risen Creme, the ripened Fruit of all Vedic literature, whose contents focus on the goal of all Vedic study, the intimate and confidential activities of the Supreme Personality of the Three Worlds and Beyond, Sri Krsna, and his dearmost associates. And when you meet other sincere souls who are involved in the same activities, befriend them. And of course beware the charlatans who use these teachings for their own devious means. Many are out there and claim to be exclusive members and guardians of Iskcon, the International Society for Krsna consciousness. If you are sincere, you will see them by their fruits, and you should treat them just like the barking dog impersonalists. Leave them lying in their stool and walk on by. Hare Krsna!

Quote from Hee Haw : "There was no post which stated that a child born to a brahmin family will automatically display qualities of a brahmin." I am not so dull that I cannot catch an implication. You on the other hand, being a dull mentalist, cannot help at nitpicking at semantics in order to deflect from the truth you cannot see. And I don't know what you are referring to by the statement about conferring brahminism to converts. Doesn't matter, both you and your smarta "brahmana" pal Raghu are disqualified from ever being able recognize actual Vaisnava Brahmana qualites in a person until you get over your holier than thou, anachronistic, impersonal view that a only a person born to brahmana parents can develop brahminical qualities. But the last thing a condescending petty tyrant wants to admit is that they don't have a monopoly on the truth already, and that there is actually a person much more supreme than them, so the tyrant temporarily gets his petty little world to rule over, because the Lord they don't believe in is so kind that he will even arrange for his master illusionist to fulfill their desires for a while. And so it goes.

Quote: <table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by raghu As far as convention is concerned, in Vedic society one was generally known by the varna of his birth, and he was expected to take up the duties of his varna, which includes thread initiation & study of the Vedas by the brAhmanas. </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> By your own choice of the word "generally" you give tacit admission that there were exceptions when Vedic society was current. All your examples you cite to support what generally occurs are but red herrings. The real question is "Can and does the Lord ever arrange for a soul to be born in a family and not display the same qualifications by guna and karma, thus varna, as the father?" If so, then regardless of any argument you can make to the contrary, one must logically consider and evaluate the actual tendencies, qualifications, and behavior of a youth in assessing their varna. Of course, naturally, if there is not a gross and obvious example of such discrepency from early age, it may take some time for the teacher and father to determine that a child just isn't taking properly to following in the footsteps of the father's varna. Being vigilant to the possibility, the father then can catch such a phenomenon early on, and arrange for the son to be matched to an apprenticeship in the proper profession. For a child to develop the inner qualities and more external qualifications of a varna, the child must be properly matched to the situation where that particular social training takes place. That should go without saying. To say that a child born to a brahmana family will automatically show the qualifications by guna and karma necessary to display the behavioral qualities of a brahmana simply because a brahmana attempts to train him, or conversely to say that a child who was strongly brahminical in the last life cannot take birth within a family of lesser varna for karmic reasons, is a very naive and narrowminded position to take considering the evident and obvious complexities of the world, not to mention the numerous examples of such irregularities we can witness every day! And let us not forget the desire of the Lord to make arrangements as he will. One that comes to mind was that Sri Vidura was as brahminically qualified in temperament as they come, was an incarnation of Lord Yamaraja, and was born to a sudra family. Those who insist that one must be physically born to parents of some varna in order for a child to display the tendencies of that varna in the future is ignoring the plain facts of the world around them.

By your own choice of the word "generally" you give tacit admission that there were exceptions when Vedic society was current. All your examples you cite to support what generally occurs are but red herrings. The real question is "Can and does the Lord ever arrange for a soul to be born in a family and not display the same qualifications by guna and karma, thus varna, as the father?" If so, then regardless of any argument you can make to the contrary, one must logically consider and evaluate the actual tendencies, qualifications, and behavior of a youth in assessing their varna. Of course, naturally, if there is not a gross and obvious example of such discrepency from early age, it may take some time for the teacher and father to determine that a child just isn't taking properly to following in the footsteps of the father's varna. Being vigilant to the possibility, the father then can catch such a phenomenon early on, and arrange for the son to be matched to an apprenticeship in the proper profession. For a child to develop the inner qualities and more external qualifications of a varna, the child must be properly matched to the situation where that particular social training takes place. That should go without saying. To say that a child born to a brahmana family will automatically show the qualifications by guna and karma necessary to display the behavioral qualities of a brahmana simply because a brahmana attempts to train him, or conversely to say that a child who was strongly brahminical in the last life cannot take birth within a family of lesser varna for karmic reasons, is a very naive and narrowminded position to take considering the evident and obvious complexities of the world, not to mention the numerous examples of such irregularities we can witness every day! And let us not forget the desire of the Lord to make arrangements as he will. One that comes to mind was that Sri Vidura was as brahminically qualified in temperament as they come, was an incarnation of Lord Yamaraja, and was born to a sudra family. Those who insist that one must be physically born to parents of some varna in order for a child to display the tendencies of that varna in the future is ignoring the plain facts of the world around them.

RAGHU SAYS :"1) Gaudiya Vaishnava ideas are NOT handed down to them from the MAdhva sampradAya unchanged. Many Gaudiya ideas are exclusively their own, and not Madhva's, period." Please refer to the post #4 above. The Acarya passes as much of the essence that HE knows, as can be absorbed by those populating his audience. He brings them up a notch. The next Acarya takes the torch and fills in the blanks. Broaden your perspective like this, and you will find Gold in a filthy place.

Yes Yes RCB Prabhu! exactly. If GuruKrpa was such a stud, he would have done all the things Suchandra alluded to and not hesitated in his protective duties. Then only does he deserve the status of Ksatriya and the pleasures commensurate. While he was in the Orient, he was pleasing Srila Prabhupada so much, that Srila Prabhupada consciously overlooked he and his crew as they spent some nights enjoying prostitutes, much to the chagrin of other jealous/envious disciples. But when the going gets tough? If indeed Gurukrpa was aware of the problems and neglected taking action, while still engaging his senses as sanctioned to Ksyatrias, then he was way out of line. So unless he gives recognition of this fact (repentance) how is he to be trusted in the future with such matters. Better in the plow department, and giving rocking kirtans until he grows a set.