andy108

Parroting or repeating ritually (religiously) words of power or prayers or any other activities meant to worship God. If done with proper philisophical understanding, they have meaning and are Further purifying to the performer and also beneficial to others/observers/neophytes. If done without philosophical underpinning, they create shadow Iskcon in all it's Gory. Unless one is as brahminically qualilfied and potent as Srila Prabhupada, one needs a community of others more or less as quailified to practice religious activity with in order to move from Jnana Misra Bhatki to Bhakti proper. I would venture a guess that we Cyber brahmanas are becoming philisophically prepared to engage in such meaningful religious activity with one another. The computer is good for Hearing and Chanting with one another, but as Theist points out, grounding it out is another thing. Some might call this next stage DVD proper. Action in Krsna Consciousness for the Advanced Neophyte coming to the true Madhyama Platform, under the guidance of the Uttama Spiritual Master's instructions. Could be fun.

What argument? I thought this was a discussion. LOL. That kind of lecture is what NM Prabhu is good at. I wish he would stick with such, and not try to speculate about Srila Prabhupada's purports and preaching misssion. Anyhow, In the mood of simultaneous oneness and difference, which I would hope you old timers would swear by, by now, I searched Srila Prabhupada's writings on Sadasiva and found 2 very simple explanations of why 1. Sadasiva has his own Tattva (Simultaneously Visnu tattva and Jiva tattva, yet as a whole belonging to a unique inbetween tattva dubbed Siva tattva by Srila Prabhupada himself in the purport to SB 4.1.15) 2. There is SIMULTANEOUSLY One Shiva, who has Two distinct manifestations, namely, a) Sadasiva who is a kala-svamsa of Visnu and consorts with Ramadevi/Laksmi who is "material nature in the neutral and unmanifested state". b) Sadasiva's espansion Lord Siva/Rudra, who consorts with Mahamaha (material nature in manifestation) from a distance in such a pure way that even a liberated Jiva can be blessed with such a role. Sources: 1. Lectures : Philosophy Discussions : Discussions with Hayagriva dasa : Origen : ORIGEN.HAY "Or there are two kinds of expansion: His personal expansions and His expansion as part and parcel. His personal expansion is called Viṣṇu-tattva, and the part and parcel expansion is called jīva-tattva—in Sanskrit technical words, svāṁśa and vibhinnāṁśa. The personal expansion there are also many varieties—puruṣa-avatāra, saktyāveśa-avatāra, manvantara-avatāra, many varieties. So generally, His personal expansion for creation of this material world are three also, accepted as Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara. Viṣṇu is personal expansion, and Brahmā is expansion of the living entity, or the vibhinnāṁśa. And another expansion, via-media between the personal expansion and expansion of jīva, the via-media expansion is called Siva. 2. CC Adi Lila 7.69, Purport (Bolded areas most relevant) TRANSLATION Rudra, who is an expansion of Sadāśiva and who appears in unlimited universes, is also a guṇāvatāra [qualitative incarnation] and is the ornament of all the demigods in the endless universes. PURPORT There are eleven expansions of Rudra, or Lord Śiva. They are as follows: Ajaikapāt, Ahibradhna, Virūpākṣa, Raivata, Hara, Bahurūpa, Devaśreṣṭha Tryambaka, Sāvitra, Jayanta, Pināki and Aparājita. Besides these expansions there are eight forms of Rudra called earth, water, fire, air, sky, the sun, the moon and soma-yājī. Generally all these Rudras have five faces, three eyes and ten arms. Sometimes it is found that Rudra is compared to Brahmā and considered a living entity. But when Rudra is explained to be a partial expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is compared to Śeṣa. Lord Śiva is therefore simultaneously an expansion of Lord Viṣṇu and, in his capacity for annihilating the creation, one of the living entities. As an expansion of Lord Viṣṇu he is called Hara, and he is transcendental to the material qualities, but when he is in touch with tamo-guṇa he appears contaminated by the material modes of nature. This is explained in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and the Brahma-saṁhitā. In Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Tenth Canto, it is stated that Lord Rudra is always associated with the material nature when she is in the neutral, unmanifested stage, but when the modes of material nature are agitated he associates with material nature from a distance. In the Brahma-saṁhitā the relationship between Viṣṇu and Lord Śiva is compared to that of milk and yogurt. Milk is converted into yogurt by certain additives, but although milk and yogurt have the same ingredients, they have different functions. Similarly, Lord Śiva is an expansion of Lord Viṣṇu, yet because of his taking part in the annihilation of the cosmic manifestation, he is considered to be changed, like milk converted into yogurt. In the Purāṇas it is found that Durgā appears sometimes from the heads of Brahmā and sometimes from the heads of Viṣṇu. The annihilator, Rudra, is born from Saṅkarṣaṇa and the ultimate fire to burn the whole creation. In the Vāyu Purāṇa there is a description of Sadāśiva in one of the Vaikuṇṭha planets. That Sadāśiva is a direct expansion of Lord Kṛṣṇa's form for pastimes. It is said that Sadāśiva (Lord Śambhu) is an expansion from the Sadāśiva in the Vaikuṇṭha planets (Lord Viṣṇu) and that his consort, Mahāmāyā, is an expansion of Ramādevī, or Lakṣmī. Mahāmāyā is the origin or birthplace of material nature. Class Dismissed!

There are many couples who are more or less qualified (by Kali Yuga standards) to raise a child who are in the adoption market for various reasons. The statistics on successful adoptions in America are very high. And the demand is high as well. People obviously have the right to do whatever the hell they want with their bodies. And they do. To their karmic detriment, if you believe Visnu sastra. So a compassionate person will do everything in their power to suggest taking responsibility for the fact that a fetus arrived in the womb, however it got there, even if through "victimization", and suggest the karma free method of dealing with it. Offer to adoption. Not murder. Of course there is also the case of a person, whose psychological makeup is qualified by dharma, who would not be able to stand by and witness a fetus murder, but would be bound to step in and use force to disrupt the procedure, even if it was consensual by the murderer and the mother. Such qualified Ksatriyas are rare, but not unheard of. Such a person would also be found in a context whereby they would have the full capability to take responsibility for THEIR involvement, and provide a viable option to the fetus once brought to term, and dispense proper justice to the "doctor" and the woman, according to scriptural code and time/place/circumstance.

Kyros. He never called you a name. He characterized your philisophical stance as concluding (''VADI") that pure fixed up devotional servants can "FALL" and become deluded. Thus "fallvadi". Which is not supported by Sastra. Which means you were speculating. Which is certainly equivalent to hallucinating, spiritually speaking. If you can prove, using Sastra, that Jaya and Vijaya were Deluded due to being present in the material atmosphere, as you wrote, that would be one thing. Otherwise, you were simply caught in a moment of passion, spouting your speculative hallucination as if it was truth, in reaction to the substance of this thread, without a spirit of inquiry or thorough diligence. Which can easily be considered a spasm of attempted sense gratification. Which failed. And you were called on it. At which point you proceeded to project your anger at being exposed upon the one who pointed it out. I hope you will be more careful this time, and not shoot the messenger, I mean you no harm or offense, just defending a Vaisnava who you are offending (however so minor). And your vadi is just plain wrong. Hare Krsna

It seems to me according to the sastra presented that the Jiva who plays the role of the demigod form of Siva is fully under the shelter of the internal potency. Thus svamsa expansion of Krsna as SadaSiva expands to empower a Vibhinnamsa espansion (nitya-mukta-jiva) aka: the guna-avatara Demigod Siva. Like Jaya and Vijaya were under the influence of Yoga Maya during their "falldown". Lord Siva felt agitation for sex from MohiniMurti, but it was under the influence of Yoga Maya. So there are 2 Sivas, but they are both eternally liberated devotional servants. So simultaneously, there is one Siva who expands into the many different Rudra incarnations. Both angles of vision are justifiable. The only one that is not is Kryos and his idea that Jaya and Vijaya were "deluded" while in the material atmosphere.

That is a wonderful collection of knowledge from previous acaryas. Alot to meditate on in detail, but the broader picture is angle of vision and layering of tastes depending on circumstances. I wonder if I were to give a lecture like that if I could get a bunch of neophytes to worship me as Rati-Keli-Siddha?

I think Santa Rasa with Visnu or Narayana forms is different than Santa Rasa with Krsna in Goloka. I don't know why, have no evidence. I know that perfection of regulative principles can only get someone to service colored with friendship with Lord Narayana in Vaikuntha, I think this has something to do with my intuition. I now tend to agree with Sonic that once attaining Goloka proper, in any rasa, that Sri Krsna's protection against Maha Maya's illusory power is full and irrevocably extended. So I wonder why Nitya-Mukta-parishad Sakhis are still considered Jiva tattva. Why would they not be classified as embodiments of Cit Sakti at that point. It has nothing to do with being able to travel back and forth through the Viraja between the material and spiritual worlds, because all Krsna's plenary expansions can do that. Hmmm.

rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/fourm.cgi?read=140329 add a www to the beginning of the link above. I can't paste links yet. NASA FUNDED ENGINEERING BREAKTHROUGH MAY MAKE POSSIBLE THE 'SPACE ELEVATOR'

Yeah, I liken the nomenclature in these analyses to a Zen Koan for Jnana Misra Bhaktas. If yer gonna be a Muni, gotta have a position to defend. This type of discussion helps Munis to become Sthiya or situated in Pure Bhakti. Jaya Prabhus. Sweet dreams of Krsna.

Sonic asks: "then why can't he take marginal energy and transform it into internal ? He probably could, but it is not stated in sastra that he can, or does. Sonic says: "But, the jiva can be transformed into internal potency with the addition of cit-shakti and hladini-shakti as explained by both Prabhupada and Bhaktivinode. (quote are already provided in previous posts)" This is a misrepresentation. They do not say transforms into. Sonic says: "When the chit and the ananda (hladini-shakti) are added to the jiva then the jiva can be considered as internal potency" I would say "considered as good as internal potency"' Even the some nitya-mukta-parishads are not considered as internal potency, but as Jiva potency, although they exhibit virtually identical characteristics. Don't forget Beggars lucid explanation of the varying degrees of the margin of the shoreline and the saturation levels of water in the sand along the width of the margin. Nitya Mukta Parishad Jivas are still situated in the Marginal Potency, as is SesaBaladevawhen he expands there. It doesn't equate to being marginalized necessarily. But it is true that at points along the margin, a Jiva may be situated in ignorance, bereft of Hladini Sakti.

Interesting. When established, or situated, in his Jiva sakti, Krsna assumes the swarup of Vilas-murti of Vraja, or Baladeva. Also known as Sesa Tattva, this Baladeva form manifests Nitya-mukta-parishad JIVAS, who render service. Similarly as Sesa Rupa, or Sankarsana in Paravyoma, manifests 8 types of these eternally liberated Jivas to render service. Differentially, as an avatara of Sankarsana named Maha-Visnu, he situates himself within the Jiva sakti as Paramatma rupa and manifests Jivas who have the potential to be involved in the material world under the INFLUENCE of Maha Maya and can be DEFEATED by her until they take shelter of Hladini Sakti of the Cit Sakti. So here we see a division among the qualifications of JIVAS. So there are Nitya Siddhas who are Swarupa Sakti Tattva. There are Nitya Siddhas who are Jiva Sakti Tattva. There are Sadhana Siddhas who are Jiva Sakti Tattva. There are Nitya Baddha Jivas, who are to engage in Sadhana to become siddha. It would seem that in the case of some Jivas, the nitya mukta parishads, there is no characteristic to their independence that they would fall under the spell of illusion, that it is not even a possibility, as opposed to what is infered about sadhana siddhas in Srila Prabhupada's statement. Even though he admits it never happens, and we have no examples of such a thing happening. Another reason why I don't care if anyone considers that Sadhana Siddha Jivas have no possibility of fallilng under Maha Maya. Because they actually don't, even if technically they do, they just don't.

Sonic said. Srila Prabhupada qualified his "Back to Godhead" Statement in Krishna Book, among other places, where he said that for us it meant taking birth on some earth planet where Krsna was enacting his pastimes, perhaps in Dwarka or Gokula. And as far as that letter to Jagadish, that happens to fit nicely with the exacting sastric statement that "general sakhis" are JIVAS. Jivas are known to have independence and tendency to take shelter of either or energies. I happen to like his explanation that we Jivas always, always, have the option to exercise our independence yet due to the nature of being fixed in loving service, we do not. It is just words anway. At that point, noone in the spiritual world is saying, Nyah Nyah, I am sakti tattva and you are only Jiva tattva. It is a nice contemplation for us though. Thanks. Hare Krsna

Sonic Yogi :Well, Krishna has free will to the unlimited degree. Does that mean he can fall down from being the Supreme Being? andy: Irrelevant. SY: Why does free will necessitate the ability to fall down? andy: In the case of a Jiva, even one who is perfectly fixed up in Krsnaloka, because Prabhupada says so. ''Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence. But those who are firmly fixed up in devotional service to Krsna are making proper use of their independence and so they do not fall down." Letter to: Jagadisa — Los Angeles 25 April, 1970 70-04-25 SY: Does not Radharani have free will? Or is she a slave? Can Radha fall down? andy: No, reread this portion of Jaiva Dharma. She is the personification of the complete swarupa-sakti or Cit Sakti, all her priciple sakhis are expansions of herself or pure Cit-potency, the characteristics of their independence do not include the capacity to be covered over by Maha Maya's illusion, as do the Jivas. SY: Free will does not necessitate the imperfection of fallibility. In fact, free will and infallibility are both qualities of the nitya-siddhas. andy: You must remember, we are speaking of the Jiva's who are IMBUED with Hladini Sakti, but remain distinct in category from the nitya siddha sakhis, and are considered sadhana siddha Jivas, according to Srila Bhaktivindode. SY:Such is the version of Lord Krishna. Krishna says his pure devotees are infallible. Why do so many devotees insist that the souls are fallible because they have free will? andy: This is a case of acintya bedhabedha. They have their independence as do all jivas, but due to their perfection of attaining loving service to Krsna, they NEVER use that independence to try to get inferior temporary pleasure from the material deminar ever again. YOU are insisting they are fallible. They are infallible at this point, but still considered Jiva tattva, there is no transformation to become Swarupa Sakti Tattva. It is not necessary. SY: We have free will here but we don't have the free will to create our own planets or fly through outer space. Free will always has it's parameters. In Goloka, the parameter of free will does not include the capacity to be overcome by ignorance and fall down from love of Krishna. Free will in Goloka is not the same kind of false free will that living entities in illusion think they have. Andy: It is a paradox. According to the English language, capacity does mean that it can happen. So if the capacity is there, but the choice is never made to fulfill that potential, then there is no spoon is there? He He.

Sonic Prabhu, How does the above speculation reconcile with this quote pasted back on page 3? It seems to me that these perfect living entities who engage in the highest rasa available are still considered jiva or tatastha or marginal because they always retain the option/potential to fall or lord it over material nature. But there is no recorded instance of one EVER doing so, which is testimony to the transformation that occurs when one has reached the level of mature personal exchanges with Krsna due to Prema. They NEVER fall, but always retain the potential, ala Free will. As far as I can tell, this is the only instance of something we can conceive of happening, that does not. Sadhana Siddha Jivas are eternally transformed in their ORIENTATION due to being enveloped by Hladini Sakti. They may even come to the material world, and even appear to play a role as demon or adversary (ie. the cowherd boy Sankachuda) but they are always remembering Krsna under YOGA MAYA'S spell, not Maha Maya's. Hare Krsna