andy108

Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by andy108 What about the possibility that as a cowherd boy in Goloka, he could appreciate from a distance, the mood and sentiments of those more directly and initmately involved in Madhurya seva arrangements. The first glimmers of appreciation for a richer deeper mood. Then on Earth he is exposed to the large variety of confidential descriptions and confessions of the Gopis, sakhis, manjaris, in their writings, keeps their personal company(His Guru), sings their songs, and begins to be highly influenced and desirous of developing that mood, and by virtue he actually IS developing that mood, while engaged in his Iskcon preaching seva. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Well excuse me for living, but I have seen worse speculation, and as far as being "absolutely" not in concert with Guru... I understand that it is said that every devotee is happy with their swarupa-siddhi and that there is no difference spiritually. But simultaneously, there is some difference and progression. In CC Madhya 19.228 we are told those devotees whose eternal swarupa is in santa rasa (ie. trees) attain dasya rasa and similarly, a friendly intimacy is added when they develop sakhya rasa. We are told there are SPECIAL FLAVORS (experienced by the devotee) in friendship. And it does not stop there.... So according to Sukhada, it is the WORST SPECULATION that there is some way for Krsna and Yoga Maya to arrange for a servant to experience complete attainment, and all that entails? No way for Srila Prabhupada to become perfectly intimate, and enjoy transcendental bliss as perfectly? No way to acheive superior loving emotions, to share the highest form of ecstasy by giving Krsna the highest form of ecstasy by surrendering in a more intense love? The Cowherd Boys in Sakhya Rasa cannot get a peep? The next verses speak for themselves. I still may be wrong, but not unreasonably speculating by a long shot. Krnsa is capable of expanding himself, his dhama, his energies, to accomodate any possibility last I checked. <o:p></o:p>

That was clever and gave me a chuckle. Clever chuckles aside, I think the Person who is the Object of this discussion would be most impressed and pleased with us if we formed a Vaidhi Sadhana Bhakti Club. To even further respect and please him, we could name it Iskcon. Then we could model the activities we engage in after the instructions he gave for being in such a club. After all, if He was who we are concluding He was, AND directly empowered by Sri Nityananda Prabhu to dictate HIS personal instruction to us all, perhaps the fact that we are having this discussion online today, yet tomorrow will return to being sudras for some materialistic karmi and his goals, speaks to both our deficit and the solution for obtaining more mercy and purifying our tendency to "disturb the higher quarter", while spinning in circles down here in Maya's realm.

Yes, I assume that all involved in this discussion already understand that just as there are tinges of tama & raja guna in a brahmana, that rasas contain tinges of others, but we are speaking here of narrowing down the predominant, and I see evidence of a wholesale transition occuring from one to the other in the case of our Srila Prabhupada's internal development. The sakhas who become gradually closer in proximity to the activities of the madhurya pastimes proper are getting their first tastes of things to come.

What about the possibility that as a cowherd boy in Goloka, he could appreciate from a distance, the mood and sentiments of those more directly and initmately involved in Madhurya seva arrangements. The first glimmers of appreciation for a richer deeper mood. Then on Earth he is exposed to the large variety of confidential descriptions and confessions of the Gopis, sakhis, manjaris, in their writings, keeps their personal company(His Guru), sings their songs, and begins to be highly influenced and desirous of developing that mood, and by virtue he actually IS developing that mood, while engaged in his Iskcon preaching seva.

There was no new system invented. This is your mistake. The consent was there. It is a known fact, even to Kula "of selective memory" Pavana, that Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada accepted hundreds of disciples who he never met in person. He impliles that Swamiji broke tradition by not being present at the initiation ceremony in order to formally trade verbal consent. That by breaking this tradition, there is no disciplic succession. Swamiji consented by authorizing his disciples to initiate people ON HIS BEHALF, who he never met, and never would meet. He gave his proxys certain criteria to judge whether a person was worthy of initiation and left it in their hands. This was his consent. The new people were informed of the situation, that they would be His Disciples, but need to take daily instruction from the Swamiji's local disciples who were representing him. But not good enough for Kula's version of tradition. Bad Swamiji. Here is the truth about Laws in a nutshell. Laws are statements describing consequences of causal actions. Breaking a law means that one intentionally or innocently has acted in a way that set consequences into motion that WILL OCCUR. A person QUALIFIED to give Diksa can give Diksa, and Siksa, to anyone at anytime, and the result of that action is the transmission of transcendental knowledge. That is the Law. Ettiquette is a standard of behavior based upon respect and recognition of the value of social order. A person who breaks ettiquette did not actually understand the value of social order, nor respect the situation, and thus breaks ettiquette. The consequences of such action is that he shows his true colors to those who do value and respect the situation, and is recognized for where he is at. That is the Law of ettiquette. The Law of Disciplic Succession is that a person who is qualified and initiates someone into transcendental knowledge and guides them to some degree to benefit from that knowledge, has succeeded in passing on some transcendental discipline to another. Bhaktivedanta Swami was qualified to give Diksa and Siksa. He decided he would be most successful in disciplining more new people by allowing the formal ceremony to be done in his absence, and authorizing his senior disciples to perform the formalities and to give further instructions to the new people according to Srila Prabhupada's dictates. SP gave them everything, and let them stand or fall on their own merits according to their willingness to follow or not. While he was in body on this planet. This is what he authorized. Anyone who considers himself a direct disciple of Bhaktivedanta Swami must realize that the only qualification for passing on transcendental knowledge is that they follow their Guru's instructions and orders. The LAW is, if you break Guru's orders, you lose spiritual connection and thus qualification. Bhaktivedanta Swami's orders to his disciples are to FORMALLY accept disciples on His behalf, yet to ESSENTIALLY be their guide and mentor (Siksa Guru), instructing them according to the teachings they imbibed from Bhaktivedanta Swami. These Siksa Gurus are authorized to tell the new person, "You are Srila Prabhupada's disciple, you must do whatever I instruct you to, but it is YOUR DUTY to check this against Srila Prabhupada's instructions, his other saintly disciples (sadhus), and his books (Sastra), in order that we are on the same page." By doing so, the neophyte always has a standard to hold their Siksa Guru to. That of their Diksa Guru and Parama Guru, AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. The Siksa Guru has no authorization to change the sadhana from the parameters set forth by Srila Prabhupada, claiming YOU ARE MY DISCIPLE NOW, THINGS HAVE CHANGED, DO IT MY WAY. This disqualifies them from representing Bhaktivedanta Swami. And Sridhara Maharaja for that matter. Doing so IS BREAKING THE LAW OF DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION, and there is no success in passing along spiritual knowledge when one is not qualified. Unless they want to strike off on their own, and cease to claim representation of Srila Prabhupada and his Iskcon. Then they may try their best, and may Krsna have mercy on them.

I have been proclaiming this for over 5 years. All I had to do was read about the history, and read what Srila Prabhupada said, and it made perfect common sense. I just practice debate and keep sharp with the philosophy by defeating detractors of Srila Prabhupada's system whenever I have the spare time. I don't expect they will change. Some might see the light. Who knows? I have been slowly and gradually working with a few others to come together and start a small temple, dedicated to Sri Panca Tattva, Sri Sri Gaura Nitai, and the past Acaryas, and it will be a Ritvik temple with lots of nice Siksa Gurus in training, and the rest of the world can do whatever they want. And expect to hear about if they rub it in my face.

As we both know, the concept of Disciplic Succession had many aspects to it. Why are you focusing on the word Law and not on the word ettiquette? What part of the fact that Acaryas receive divine authorization to make small changes in Forms, aka ettiquettes, aka laws as long as they do not prevent the essence from being injured, which is the only reason FOR A LAW IN THE FIRST PLACE. I know Poland was a backwards ass communist neo-Mongol Gulag, so your ignorance is understandable. But here in America, we have long understood the difference between the COLOR OF LAW, and the SPIRIT OF LAW. And we did not need to read about Vedic Culture from a Gaudiya Acarya to understand this distinction. Anyway, the law is the law. Srila Prabhupada did nothing to break the law. The law of disciplic succession DOES NOT STATE THAT ONE MUST NOT GIVE DIKSA ON BEHALF OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER IN HIS ABSENCE, LEST THE ESSENCE NOT BE PASSED ON. Siksa is the essence. Diksa initiation is the Formality. The Essence or True Diksa is received through hearing the mantra submissively. Submission is indicated by accepting instruction. Participating in the Diksa ceremony often comes after the fact of True Diksa and is certainly not necessary for disciplic succession to occur.

No, Srila Prabhupada's (Bhaktivedanta Swami's) translations never changed at all. The 1972 Bhagavad Gita As It Is was his complete and unabridged seminal treatment of Bhagavad Gita. He admitted there may be some flaws in spelling and minor grammatical deviations from what is generally accepted in the circles of English scholars, but that these were not important enough to change the message he was sure he got across. For this reason, he repeatedly discouraged the disciples he employed as editors on his future writing projects, from considering that his Gita need any further scrutiny. It was good enough for him, and his name was on it. Unfortunately, after he left his body, and was unable to prevent it, his ambitious disciples went back to his Gita, claimed it needed the minor spelling and grammatical corrections the author did not authorize, and proceeded to change over 50% of the contents, changing the philosophical slant in many cases. This is the truth, as it is.

Well, to set the record straight, especially since your panties are now all in a bunch... I assure you, I am not bogus at all, neither is my observation based on fabrication or falsity. My Acarya said to avoid social niceties and call a thief a thief. Especially a member of the Great Sinister Movement that he himself claimed was already infiltrated his Society. What I stated, in spite of the service that Harikesh did for SP in the beginning, is the actual truth of where he has ended up. And how he continues to operate until this day. I am in the know. He has not repented yet and continues to rip innocent people off, including an old friend of mine. But he eventually will return to Bhakti at the level he was at before he decided a life of crime was a better option for him. There is no loss or dimunition on this path. Ease up Bubba.

Nowhere in Srila Prabhupada's books does he mention this so called LAW OF Disciplic succession. In a letter to Tusta, in order to keep him engaged as he is breaking away and going off on his own, he tells him one of the ettiquette laws of disciplic succession. You are the one who, by implying this law must be held to at risk of creating an apa-sampradaya, indict Srila Prabhupada for breaking this law, for as we know he did not allow his disciples to accept disciples in his absence. One's spiritual master could be alive (still appearing) but if he is absent for a long period, maybe even never to return to that region, it is not breaking ettiquette for one to accept disciples, even give Diksa, if qualified. After the disappearance, the same is true. However we know that a disciple is only qualified to give Diksa if he is authorized by ORDER of his Spiritual master. So Srila Prabhupada, in keeping in harmony with the ESSENCE OR SPIRIT OF THE LAW, did as an Acarya is authorized to do and made a small change in formality, in which his disciples were authorized to give Diksa initiations only on his behalf, while simultaneously leaving behind the full spectrum of Vani they would require in order to accept these neophytes as disciples in the sense that the neophyte would need to follow the instructions of the senior disciples of Srila Prabhupada in order to make advancement. In every way, these new Bhaktas are under the discipline of the Siksa Guru's Srila Prabhupada left behind. The Siksa Guru is careful to instruct the new Bhakta in the system of Sadhana that SP left to perpetuate. This system did not include claiming to be Diksa Guru of these neophytes, claiming to be able to absorb all their sins, even if technically able. This system did not include initiating and receiving the elaborate worship that Srila Prabhupada himself received as Diksa Guru. Lest anyone claim I am envious, I am not saying that SP's Siksa Gurus would out of false humility reject being worshipped by those who rightfully adore them. When the Siksa Guru comes to ones home, it is sweet and appropriate to garland him, and wash his feet. But the thing SP sought to avoid was giving anyone the inkling that if they played their cards right, they would be sat on a Vyasasana everyday and given an elaborate Guru Puja. Especially in his temples. I find the only people who fail to see these simple points and deride the Acarya's strategies on this matter are overly desirous of receiving adoration not commensurate with their position. They claim that it is my envy that I just don't want to ever see another "living person" receive adoration. Until they hear my actual position as stated above.

If you had ever added anything substantial to these debates other than your flashy pseudo-poetic method speaking in way one usually walks away wondering if you even knew what you were talking about, forget about having the ability to get your point across. (Unless of course you are just attacking me). Maybe I would take your suggestion seriously. But as I am a phoney entity , I will just stick to the facts and ignore your vain protestations assuming that won't bother you coming from a phoney and all, so I hope not to hear from you anymore.

Of course you disregard all the other perfectly reasonable rebuttals to your so called evidence that the Ritvik order is apa-Sampradaya and focus on this one letter to a person who Srila Prabhupada himself told he should leave Iskcon and do his own thing because that was what he wanted. Tusta was already a caste Diksa envy guru wannabee and was destined to learn the hard lumps of that path. Srila Prabhupada tried to steer him to the understanding he was just an envious neophyte conditioned soul guru-wannabee for many years, and at last fulfilled his desire as they parted ways. A foreshadowing of your own delirious destiny perhaps. If you want to be King Diksa Kula of Prabhupada Hill, best Ski-daddle back to Poland where your fellow Commies will embrace you to their Breasts with a Heil Kula. And don't let the doorknob stick you on the way out. America's heart is already taken.

Then wake up and clear the bed-snot from your eyes. You clearly refer to them as "even leaders Prabhupada appointed". Which is an oblique reference to his fallibility which is a constant theme in your diatribes. Your history speaks for itself. Perhaps my last post was a response that was building up as a summary result of everything you have said prior, and not just on the technicality of what you just said. Hmmmm. Could be. You were not only there to see it, (after SP left), YOU GAVE THEM FREE-REIGN by your unwillingness to exercise your God given right to Free-will and not support their "reign" by doing something different. Anything. Plant a garden. Get a post in your government. Build an airplane. You stuck with Harry Cashout for 20 years before you claim he finally fell down. Anyway, you have suffered enough, and will at your own hands until you give up your Acarya resentment and Diksa envy. Nothing more I can do.

Not in the folio. Likely one of many concoctions of the already known to be corrupt GBC. Remember, the branches of caste-Diksa gurus withered, dried up, and fell to dust because they lost their link to the Heart of the Trunk of the Tree. The Instructions of the Acarya. The Sruti. The purely chaste sound current is the lifeblood which keeps the branch alive. Follow the instruction. Become Guru. Become bonafide pure devotee, advanced adhikara, Siksa Guru. Or is that not enough for you? From a letter to a disciple who had already deviated so many times, was without hope, and was leaving/already left Iskcon. So after Krsna as supersoul and Srila Prabhupada both watched the mood of his disciples, they knew they needed to seal the door against false caste Diksa Guru poison, and re-emphasize the eternal presence of the spiritual master. Therefore, THEY, ordered a system by which any qualified initiated disciple would become responsible as Siksa Guru to discipline an unlimited number of new Bhaktas. They would make innumerable disciples. Problem for Kula, he won't be able to say "THEY ARE MY DISCIPLESMINE MINE ALL MINE!!!" "Buah Ha Ha hah!!!" Who said that the law of disciplic succession was based on who performs the Diksa initiation ceremony? That is the only thing he changed, where have you been?

And because of the Troll demons masquerading as tumors in your brain, you continue to conflate the allowance of free-will to being given free-reign. And you claim to be anti-facist. Your views are not but the epitome of Facism. Of course you will claim that Srila Prabhupada kept these men on after doing horrific things that he even found out about. Unwilling to use the "forgiveness of socially abominable actions if they are rightly situated" card here because it does not suit your argument. Better left used when defending your ex bad Guru. But I digress. You can't even allow that an Acarya can tell when to pull the forgiveness of socially abominable actions card! That he was not able to tell if they were sorry for their accidental falldown, and if they were chanting "Hare Krsna" again. Old guy must have been hard of hearing eh? Again. He never gave anyone Free-Reign. Repeat this 3 times. He constantly harped against that tendency in his leaders, and would even reassign them if he discovered they overstepped and were unrepentant. YOU are the one who will castigate anyone if they do not follow in lockstep with your idea of the ideal moral character of a Vaisnava, and stick your Communist Jack Boot up their butt if they act in any way socially that makes your self-righteous ego "Cringe". Read the relevant passage from the Gita again. Back to basics. Once a neophyte Vaisnava, such a one may even become part of the sinister movement and commit nonsense on the strength of the verse, but it is only said that it means they are "not to be considered a high devotee". But still a devotee none the less by implication. If I were you I would tread lightly and contemplate the incredible compassion and tolerance of the Pure Devotee and Acarya for ALL his disciples. More tolerant than a tree and humbler than a blade of grass. Too aspire to. Not assume you are there and can therefore criticize the Acarya for being just that.

The problem is with you folks suffering from a combination of Senioritis and Diksa Guru Envy is that you choose to see Srila Prabhupada's Ritvik system as mutually exclusive of qualified Siksa Gurus. And when someone points out the flaw in that, as I did in the other thread, you create a new thread in order to continue your mental regurgitations of your already defeated points of view, but of course, the best geriatric TV programming ended around 2 pm, and prime time is 4 hours away. So without wasting any more pearls I will simply cut and paste the perfectly legitimate explanation of why the Ritvik system, once followed, will create plenty of Pure, advanced (oh sorry Beggar HIGHLY ADVANCED) devotees who will function as the Gurus they are, without the need to reject the Founder Acarya's order that all Diksa initiations be done on his behalf. Of course I don't expect my lucid analysis to sway any old men with Acaryenvy who can't accept a future where they will be barred from forming a Caste-Diksa lineage with innumerable fawning disciples offering them Guru puja three times daily. Which by the way is the short version of why the Acarya, in his wisdom, ordered YOU RASCALS to cease and desist with your Diksa envy.

Problem is Theist, Beggar does not confine his criticism to the very narrow spectrum of devotees who claim "Prabhupada is Guru for next 10000 years" Even those who claim Prabhupada gave full allowance for the creation and emergence of pure and advanced instructing Gurus are lumped into his derision. But give the guy a break, he has no other life but to tilt at windmills. Anyway, here is a quote you will appreciate. And of course I mean to post this as well to prove that even one who accepts Srila Prabhupada as his Diksa Guru although is not there in his "human-like which can be seen by conditioned eyes bodily form" at the ceremony (like so many of his disciples from 1972-77 who never "met" him) Even such a person may find a spiritual master in Iskcon henceforward as the Ritvik order in no way precludes disciples from BECOMING pure devotees who FURTHER BECOME advanced in adhikari and can act as Siksa Guru representatives of Srila Govindaji Vigraha (aka Supersoul), and give permission/confirmation to the supersoul realizing Vaisnava that their writing project is acceptable.

It appears that engaging Kulapavana incites him to continued acarya aparadha, as he now blames Srila Prabhupada's ritvik order for the actions of those who disregarded his order and never ever called themselves Ritviks, yet who Kulapavana refers to as Ritvik Leaders. The ever morphing mind of Kula pavana is leading him on a path to hell, seeing demons where there are none, and ignoring the ones he works for every day. I will no longer be part of feeding the Trolls that permeate his Kama-Manasic vehicle which are torturing him so, albeit by his permission. It will take more than being told the truth to set him free. Acceptance of truth requires eviction of Trolls. May Sri Sri Guru Gauranga have mercy.

Why don't you just observe the actions of Bhaktivedanta Swami up to 1977, then analyze how he formalized that system and what he said to do henceforward. Then reject all the various mundane deviations from that simple program that you concoct in your mind, and that other devotees have put forward, that would lead to a non-spiritual totalitarian Autocratic regime like modern apa Iskcon. Reject those concoctions Just look at His actual instructions as a whole, and imagine what it would be like if people actually followed them. There is your simple answer if you must scry the future.

After Comrade Obama and the Marxist socialists of America's new 4th Reich complete what they have begun in a year or less, when the true new world order 4th Reich comes to town and makes you and your karmi scientist friends work for them because you don't have your own food, cloth, raw materials, Vaisnava militia, etc. because you know so much better how to execute a sankirtana mission than the Acarya who found you languishing in your Commu/Socialist Pollack conditioned state. Why don't you compose some poetry glorifying them? They might appreciate it and not send your wife and kids to the gulag (read FEMA camp) for those who believe in freedom of religion and God as opposed to slavery to the state.

Well if you give up, there is no need for beer, it is sparring with you that drives me to drink.

So either you intentionally skimmed my last post, or you are quibbling that my suggestion that new aspirants associating with and being guided by pure advanced Vaisnavas, is not enough, but they must be HIGHLY advanced? Oh my god. You forgot your meds. Again.

Right. So you, a neophyte who was duped by a career huckster and criminal, who criticizes someone you claim was an acarya who found you lying to yourself in conditional miasma and told you an acarya is not to be mistaken for an ordinary conditioned soul, like yourself, and prone to the 4 defects (including making mistakes). After all this. You reject the basic tenet of rejecting what is unfavorable to advancement in devotional service by spending the majority of every day with faithless karmis in a mundane corporation just to get paper money so you can go to the supermarket and buy food and pay your mortgage. So, if and when any of the faithless karmis you spend your days with actually turns interested in Krsna consciousness by some motion of supersoul, you will bypass starting them on Bhagavad Gita and accepting an instructor and instead send them to the prayers of Srila Krsnadas Kaviraja and explain to them how they can take Siksa from the Eagle and the Shark, the Sun and the Moon. When will taking such transparently hollow positions that I can shoot down while drinking a six-pack of beer finally get embarassing enough for you to give up?

And the problem with some is they presume to assume there is a one size fits all understanding of the Acarya's ritvik order being promulgated by all who hold the doctrine dear. Dismissing it out-of-hand at first blush because it confounds their ability to fit the Acarya into a predictable template, they make the illogical leap that anyone who follows that doctrine must certainly be misguided. Or burned by a fanatic hiding behind the basics of the ritvik doctrine who lacks any other recognizable human/civilized qualities, they emotionally react to paint all ritvik adherents with a broad brush. Why focus on all of the psuedo understandings, misunderstandings, and failings of those who push forward Bhaktivedanta Swami and Sridhara Maharaja's Ritvik Doctrine? Is that any different than repeatedly bemoaning the obvious failings of the GBC appointed zonal Guru club? We see what we want to see. If we feel the ritvik order stifles our "freedom of expression" we will not recognize or even imagine the existence of the many devotees who understand that the Ritvik Orders in no way minimize the role of those who progress to the point of pure devotion and representation as Siksa Guru to others who come into the Daiva Varnasrama oriented fold of Iskcon. The safeguard of forever ordering initiations be performed on behalf of a Diksa Guru and Acarya who the Lord spared no miracle to illustrate the absolute qualifications of is a master stroke of genious, forever slamming and barring shut the door behind which the evils of Caste Diksa privilege dwells. Thus henceforward, in the real Iskcon, the humble and chaste at heart will from the neophyte stage advance and BECOME BOTH PURE AND ADVANCED DEVOTEES. They will in their turn become actual qualified Instructing Gurus to many who take their discipline and commit their spiritual lives to their capable hands. And by their actions of following the order that all new initiates are Diksa Disciples of the ever present Saktavesha Avatara and Founder Acarya, they will reinforce through each generation the emphasis on the value of Instructions and the chastity to such in order to gain the mercy necessary to advance in Sadhana Bhakti. By doing so they will reinforce the message that the Spiritual Master is always present in his instructions. The results of successive generations of Sankirtana devotees ACTUALLY travelling from village to village in their local areas, unified under one Acarya and his many representatives will be the fruitive result that all other systems have failed to produce. Hare Krsna

This is the EXACT scenario I mentioned in my previous post. An attempt by a NEOPHYTE VAISNAVA to disregard the necessity for chastity to his one chosen Acarya, and justify this by reproducing the prayers of a HIGHLY ADVANCED VAISNAVA and using that to indicate the option of seeing Guru or master everywhere, of being able to recognize and take relevant Siksa from multiple advanced devotees, before ever completing the requisite processes for the beginner or neophyte. When you become as advanced as Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja let us know.