Posts posted by Kulapavana
There IS a need to invent a new system in the age where thousands of neophytes want to play guru and produce a class of embittered ex-devotees.
Where do you see these thousands of guru wannabes? I see extremely few of them among the devotees from my generation. Granted, there are more of them among Prabhupada's disciples, as there should be, but there are not thousands of them, and they are not neophytes. Keep your pants on, yogibear...
When you tell the newcomers that a 'real guru' can walk on water you are definitely setting them up for a disappointment. It is much safer to say that Prabhupada was able to walk on water because he is not around to prove you wrong. Lets make up an inspiring legend and feed it to the masses - it worked great for the Christians, did it not?
What embitters people are the lies that were sold to them in their youth, when they were idealistic and gullible. Sooner or later these lies become exposed and people feel cheated. That is why people leave.
Tell people the truth: the majority of Gaudiya gurus were simply advanced and experienced devotees. Now and then there were extraordinary personalities, true Acharyas, super-gurus like Srila Prabhupada, but that was always rare.
You should at least show loyalty to all those not only ex-Harikes disciples but also others like Harikes' godbrothers who went through unbelievable damage, not only spiritually but also materially.
I am not in any way minimizing his responsibility for the mess he created and the real damage he has done. One of my Godbrothers comitted a suicide that can be directly linked to his falldown.
However, I do not feel like he damaged me personally in any way, even as it was a very, very painful experience. I never believed in the guru fairytales as told in Iskcon or in any other fanatical and un-shastric sentimentalities sold to the new devotees about the purity and superiority of our leaders and movement in general. I knew for many years that sannyasa was a bad choice for Harikesh, just like it was a bad choice for just about everybody else. And I have seen plenty of Iskcon leaders fall down. What surprised me was how badly he fell, diving deep into real insanity.
The despair of the devotees, the smashed lives, the suffering, were not just the results of one guru falling down. A good part of our movement was built on lies and half-truths, we promoted fanaticism and blind obedience to the gurus and leaders, overselling the benefits and refusing to talk about the risks. To some extent this system continues without much change today.
Those who promote the ritvik reich are trying to replace a badly structured system with one that is potentially even worse, because it institutionalizes personality cult and deviations from the sampradaya practices, demanding even more fanaticism and blind obedience.
I just don't understand when Kulapava gets into his heavy handed authoritarian mode in trying to dictate how other people should be intiated especially given the dubious circumstances of his own initiation.
You can claim to get initiation from Srlila Vyasadeva if you think that by reading his books you are getting diksa.
During initiation a consent of both parties is required by the tradition. What was good for Prabhupada and his godbrothers is good for their disciples as well. No need to invent a new system.
... I always find it strange when he advocates people being initiated by living gurus and the living guru he was initiated by ran off with a massage therapist and stole millions from Iskcon...
Just because the abuse of the position happens now and then that does not mean that a system which was always in place must be changed.
Btw... I never felt that I was in any way disadvantaged by the turn of events. I have learned A LOT from that experience.
Nowhere in Srila Prabhupada's books does he mention this so called LAW OF Disciplic succession.
I'm asking you again: Are you saying this law does not exist and Prabhupada just made it up for Tusta? Lets be clear: This was always the Vedic practice adopted by our sampradaya since times immemorial. This is how Prabhupada himself started accepting disciples after his guru passed on. That was even before he became a sannyasi. Prabhupada can't change such a law without deviating from the sampradaya.
I have (and use frequently) at least 4 Vaishnava translations of the Gita. The differences are fairly minor IMO.
Of course you disregard all the other perfectly reasonable rebuttals to your so called evidence that the Ritvik order is apa-Sampradaya and focus on this one letter to a person who Srila Prabhupada himself told he should leave Iskcon and do his own thing because that was what he wanted.
Which part of "This is the law of disciplic succession" you do not understand?
You break the law, you are an apa-sampradaya. Simple.
You clearly refer to them as "even leaders Prabhupada appointed".
That is a historical fact. The rest is your own foam and speculation...
From a letter to a disciple who had already deviated so many times, was without hope, and was leaving/already left Iskcon.
No, that is an actual principle (law) of our sampradaya. You think Prabhupada made it up for Tusta? Are you calling him a liar?
Prabhupada is not above that law. And changing it means becoming an apa-sampradaya.
Again. He never gave anyone Free-Reign. Repeat this 3 times.
If you knew the facts, you would have noticed I was refering to the time after SP passed away - hence the phrase 'free reign' and me being there to see it (you know when I joined)
all I see in your posts is foam...
Pranams, Mahaksaji... many more happy realizations!
"As I have five thousand disciples or ten thousand, so you have ten thousand each. In this way, create branches and branches of the Caitanya tree." (Mayapur GBC meetings 1976)
Prabhupada: "Like father, like son." You should be. Gaurangera bhakta..., jane. Everyone. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, amara ajnaya guru hana tara' ei desa. He asked everyone, "Just become guru." Follow His instruction. You become guru. Amara ajnaya. Don't manufacture ideas. Amara ajnaya. "What I say, you do. You become a guru." Where is the difficulty?
"And what is Your ajna?" Yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa. Bas. Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gita. You simply repeat. That's all. You become guru. To become a guru is not difficult job. Follow Caitanya Mahaprabhu and speak what Krsna has said. Bas. You become guru. 770415rc.bom Conversations (15/04/1977)
"But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your Spiritual master you bring the prospective disciples to him, and in his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples without any limitation. This is the law of disciplic succession. (SPL Tusta Krsna, December 2, 1975)
"Everyone can, whoever is initiated, he is competent to make disciples. But as a matter of etiquette they do not do so in the presence of their spiritual master. This is the etiquette. Otherwise, they are competent. They can make disciples and spread they are competent to make disciples." (Detroit, July 18, 1971)
Prabhupada did not change the law of the disciplic succession.
It appears that engaging Kulapavana incites him to continued acarya aparadha, as he now blames Srila Prabhupada's ritvik order for the actions of those who disregarded his order...
You are seeing all kinds of things in your delusional head...
The examples were there to show you that given a free-reign, even Prabhupada's disciples appointed by him to be leaders are capable of horrific actions. I do remember these days, and the shudder of repulsion I had for these people and their evil ways. Many of the cheerleaders from that time period are current GBCs.
It was ignorance and fanaticism of rank and file devotees that allowed these 'leaders' to prosper, something I hope will never happen again in my lifetime. That is why I cringe every time I see fanatics with radical agendas among the devotees.
Sign of the times and
writings on the wall
they show me it's time has come
Order of a new kind we will all find
stronger than never before
Things are pretty much the same
like in the year sixty eight
oh won't we ever learn
This time is't gonna be different
so let's all join our hands
And let the children sing
for the last time
Ritvik Reich is rising
can't you see the signs
Ritvik Reich is rising
for the last time
Let's just press more lies
don't worry about verification
we got to have more bhaktas to carry on
Misery and sorrow cannot be
avoided at this point
but things will be so
different when we are
ruling the world
Ritvik Reich is rising
can't you see the signs
Ritvik Reich is rising
for the last time
what will be left to our children
is this our final destiny
When will taking such transparently hollow positions that I can shoot down while drinking a six-pack of beer finally get embarassing enough for you to give up?
I give up... please go back to your beer...
When you become as advanced as Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja let us know.
KK wrote that prayer for all of us, so that we will not forget what are the techings and devotional mood of our sampradaya, and so that we will not be led astray by ignorant and fanatical disciples of a particular guru.
Having forgone the Fundamental Prime factor, the choosing of ONE MASTER (Guru) and being chaste to the instructions He gives, they claim "I see Guru everywhere, after all that it what scripture says!" Yet not being actual advanced realizers of that concept, what their actions say is "Guru is anyone who gives me an instruction that appeals to my heart (read emotions) at any given time."
This is another totally bogus concept, extrapolated for their political use by the Isk-CON artists
<CENTER>Vande ham sri guroh sri-yuta-pada-kamalam sri-gurun vaisnavams ca sri-rupam sagrajatam saha-gana-raghunathanvitam tam sa-jivam sadvaitam savadhutam parijana-sahitam krsna-caitanya-devam sri-radha-krsna-padan saha-gana-lalita-sri-visakhanvitams ca</CENTER><CENTER> </CENTER>Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja prays, "First I offer my respects unto the lotus feet of my initiating spiritual masters and the recruiting spiritual masters and advanced Vaisnavas. Next I offer my obeisances to my sastra gurus, Srila Rupa Goswami, his elder brother, Srila Sanatana Goswami, Srila Raghunatha dasa Goswami, and Jiva Goswami. On a higher platform I offer my respects unto Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, who came with his paraphernalia and associates, along with those great personalities Sri Nityananda Prabhu and Sri Advaita Acharyya. And in the highest stage, I offer my obeisances unto the lotus feet of Sri Sri Radha and Govinda, and all of the gopis, headed by Lalita and Visakha devi."
So this cacophony of 'As it Isers' will do the anti-preaching and drive people away from Krsna Consciousness as a result. Sounds like a dark era for the preaching work in general.
I see many newcomers to Krsna consciousness and they are all rejecting this fundamentalist mentality. I think Mahaprabhu is smashing us precisely because our movement has turned that way: we went from being inclusive and reformist to being exclusive and ultra-orthodox, in the span of just one generation.
As a last attempt at peace, Krishna Himself travelled to Hastinapur to persuade the Kauravas for peace. This is of philosophical importance as it shows that the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself tried to avoid war at all costs. This aspect is sometimes ignored by those who claim Krishna coaxed Arjuna into violence in the war. At Hastinapur, Krishna took His meals and stayed at the house of the Prime Minister, Vidura, who was a religious person and a devotee of Krishna. Duryodhana hence felt insulted that Krishna turned down his invitation to eat with him and stay in his royal palace. Determined to ensure that the peace mission failed, Duryodhana plotted to arrest Krishna.
At the formal presentation of the peace proposal by Krishna at the court of Hastinapur, Krishna's peace proposals were ignored, and Duryodhana publically ordered his soldiers to arrest Krishna. Krishna laughed at his mortal attempts, and displayed his divine form, blinding the soldiers and everyone in court with his radiating light. The beautiful divine form of the Lord could be perceived only by those pure in heart, Bhishma, Drona, and Vidura. With His peace mission rejected by Duryodhana, Krishna returned to Upaplavya to inform the Pandavas that there was now no alternative to war for the upholding of the principles of virtue and righteousness.
Suchandra-ji, altough we sometimes spar over various issues I actually have a deep appreciation for you and consider you my superior in both material and spiritual sense. Posts like the one above show that you are a deep thinker and a high class devotee. Apologies for all my irreverent posts.
So just chant "Hare Krishna" when you die.
We need to really dive deep into the vibration of the Holy Name before the death comes for us, so that in this critical moment of death and separation from the body we may be able to focus on Krsna's Names. That is our process.
The real aim of Bardo Thodol is to obtain liberation from reincarnation through a sound vibration. Bardo Thodol means: "Liberation Through Hearing During the Intermediate State".
Without recognizing who's Krishna's real ambassador we simply end up like someone using just any box to deposit his letter.
Of course there is only one such a deposit box in the world, and it happens to be to one you are using... Every sect in the world is fishing with that line... and they will not rest until they control the entire world
My letters are getting delivered to Krsna just fine...
No thanks. My Acarya told me that anything I needed to understand about the absolute vs. relative conceptions of any truth/tattva were in HIS teachings to me.
Good for you. Now be happy with it and let others pursue knowledge and inspiration according to their own heart's inclination.
I think all of these guys: Harikesa, Gurukripa, Kirtanananda, etc. got out of Krsna consciousness exactly what they wanted, and got paid real well for the actual service rendered. They cashed out and I do not envy their 'golden parachutes'. I'm just happy to still be flying Krsna's Airlines...
in Spiritual Discussions
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Our discussions here have become mostly just quarrels and I find myself spending a lot of time on such unproductive exchanges, probably even provoking many of them. I apologize for that. Perhaps it is time to move on for me. Dandavat pranams to you all.