Kulapavana

Here are some quotes from Brahma-sutra Bhashaya of Sankara and SriBhashya of Ramanuja.

"The Sudras are not qualified for that reason also that Gautama having ascertained Jabala not to be a Sudra from his speaking the truth, proceeded to initiate and instruct him. 'None who is not a Brahmana would thus speak out. Go and fetch fuel, friend, I shall initiate you. You have not swerved from truth.' (Ch up 4.4.5) Sankara Bhashya (1:3:37)

"From those Sudras, however, who like Vidura and 'the religious hunter' acquire knowledge in consequence of the after effects of former deeds, the fruit of their knowledge cannot be witheld, since knowledge in all cases brings about its fruit." (Sankara 1.3.38)

"Owing to the effect of former actions, which ahd not yet worked themselves out, they were born in a low caste, while at the same time they possessed wisdom owing to the fact that the knowledge acquired by then in former births had not yet quite vanished." (Ramanuja 1.3.33)

"Even a person who because he does not belong to an ashrama stands between as it were, is qualified for knowledge. 'For that is seen'. For we meet wth scriptural passages declaring that persons of that class such as Raikva and the daughter of Vachanu--possessed the knowledge of Brahman (ch 4.1, Bri 3.6.8)"(Sankara3.4.36)

"Smriti also declares that men not belonging to an ashrama grow in knowledge through prayer and the like. 'Through prayer (japa) also a Brahmana may become perfect May he perform other works or not, who befriends all creatures is called a Brahmana (Manu Smriti 2.17)' " (Ramanuja 3.4.37)<!--QuoteEnd-->

Yaksha: What make one a brahmana, birth, learning or behavior?

Yudhisthira: It is behavior alone that make a person a brahmana. Even if one who is expert in the four Vedas, born of brahmana parents, but whose behavior is not proper should be considered a sudra.

I liked this story from Gurukripa:

"I presented Srila Prabhupada with all the money. We talked. I told him, "I want to go back to India, I do not want to stay in the USA anymore. I do not feel these Godbrothers are my brothers at all. I do not like ISKCON at all, Srila Prabhupada." Srila Prabhupada asked me, "Do you like me?" I said. "Yes Srila Prabhupada, I like you.". He said, "I am ISKCON. If you don't like ISKCON, then you don't like me." I replied, "But Srila Prabhupada, they don't act like you. So I do not like them. I like many of the devotees who act like you, but these leaders do not act like you." Prabhupada was silent for a moment, and then he said, "From here on out, you just work directly under me." Then he brought up the questions about Tamal's complaints about me and Tamal's desire that I not return to India. I said, "Prabhupada, Tamal is expert in using devotees for his own program. When he gets what he wants from you, then he dumps you." Srila Prabhupada's answer, exactly to the word with Lord Nrsimhadeva as my witness, and He can kill me if I am saying anything not true: "YES I HAVE MARKED THIS. HE IS NOT A VAISNAVA. He wants too much to be number one. I will rectify."

The authocratic system of regional secretaries, sannyasis, GBCs, nominated temple presidents, was fully in place by 1977. Don't tell me Prabhupada created a democratic system of elected managers. For example: NONE of the GBCs was ever elected in Prabhupada's times as the DOM required - Prabhupada appointed all of them, and he appointed them for life, again contrary to the DOM requirements.

10,000 years from now everybody will be speaking English with a strong Bengali accent, from listening to all the recorded lectures of Srila Prabhupada... anybody who doubts that is a demon and an aparadhi...

So knowing everything else you do about Srila Prabhupada, you still refuse to give a crack at his instructions to see what would eventuate, instead you will spend your time trying to change his instructions.

We were talking primarily about the authocratic management system he put in place. After some 40 years there is plenty of evidence it does not work. And that is why I say it needs to be changed. Not that somehow all of his instructions need to be changed. When examining failures you must look both at the plans and their execution to determine the problem.

You can't make it right, doesn't mean I can't.

 

all the power to you and other secret leaders Prabhupada appointed but kept hidden so that they can come out 40 years later to save his movement... I only wonder why he has not made you leaders from the very beginning?

 

Prabhupada is here by his instructions you fool.

 

Funny how there are at least 5 different camps of his disciples, each claiming exclusive rights to properly understanding their guru... There must have been 5 different Prabhupadas, no? how come we have all these controversies? and who will settle them?

Which part of "Prabhupada is not here" do you not understand my wise man?

Impossible to do when one's brain is covered over by Mahamaya's illusion that one is better than Srila Prabhupada.

 

I never thought like that. How do you know what I think. In a typical Iskcon fashion you attack my character and you label me an offender.

I gave you practical examples of problem areas requiring change and you are just a broken record: ...no change......no change...no change...no change...no change...no change...no change...

But of course another way of looking at it would be to think, "Srila Prabhupada's instructions are perfect, but we just do not have the purity to carry them out properly."

Yes, here is an example of a perfect instruction: take 6-year old kids from their parents and send them across the world to a school in India run by ex-hippies with zero experience in education.

You have voiced your partcial support for the pressent paradigum, guru club, ISKCON appointed by no objection vote. Give you keys? Ha! I know there is some one of them you have in the past given verbal support. You name them! Reject all of them as rascals and I would stand corrected.

 

Apparently none of the people Prabhupada made leaders of his movement were sincere... he was fooled by them and so was I... shame on us forever... at least I was not the one who gave them keys to the Ferrari

YOU are the one that is clinging to the ISKCON management system. You don't need to change it before you can do your work.

 

Try to understand this simple point.

to the contrary... almost every day I work on practical KC projects with other devotees, circumventing the current Iskcon management system.

 

You still don't get it do you? Amazing. Any changes Prabhupada made were in his own name and to his own work.

 

I know you are a bright guy so why are you being so dull on this point?

Which part of "Prabhupada is not here to make the changes" do you not understand?

Unless of course you feel that the way things are in Iskcon now is perfect and that no changes are needed.

Farms - huge success!

Gurukulas - huge success!

Varnashrama dharma - huge success!

Sankirtan - huge success!

Temple service - huge success!

Congregation building - huge success!

Prasadam distribution - huge success!

Preaching to the scientists - huge success!

No, no changes are needed... we are a smashing hit on the world's religious scene...

I recall a statement by Srila Prabhupada to the effect of the problem with you westerners is you are always changing things.

and of course Prabhupada never made any changes

was his Iskcon identical to the Gaudiya Matha of his guru? did he not make changes to his own organization?

Prabhupada was impressed by people who generated good results. He even praised the changes in his Gita that Rayarama made in the initial editing. why? because they were good changes.

Many years ago I have built up a strong preaching organization in a communist Poland, starting from scratch. When I got kicked out several years later we had more full time devotees than they have there now, 25 years later. So I do know a little about proper management of preaching missions. I did that not by blind following but by using my God-given skills.

I see Iskcon management system as completely ineffective and prone to abuse. It is a relic of a bygone era. Clinging to it out of sentimentality or ignorance is the REAL offense to Srila Prabhupada's mission.

How convenient. The "vedic traditionalist" suddenly has a problem with Top-down Autocracy.

 

All management systems can be abused. And will be. That is the material world.

 

Your "new improved" management system can and will be abused.

 

Srila Prabhupada put in checks and balances.

The failure of ANY institution is always caused by the failure of the management system of this organization. Some institutions flourish while others are in decline - that is proof positive that all management systems are NOT alike. You LEARN from those who succeeded and those who failed by comparing their management.

I do not expect you to understand that, but I hope that other readers will.

Originally Posted by andy108

"And MY point is that SP was himself exclusively qualified to make any changes to his management system"

In case you have not noticed, he is not around to make the changes needed now.

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The reason why Srila Prabhupada gave Dogma (strict instructions) is to preempt the possibility of students like Kulapavana from attempting to justify “Change” based on their illusory perception that the Acarya’s view lacked pragmatism according to current circumstances. Upon closer examination, everytime a student gives reasons to justify their viewpoint of needed “Change”, the analysis will reveal they are in error.

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Srila Prabhupada gave power to a lot of ambitious and unqualified people, like Gurukripa of this thread, creating a top down authocratic management system extremely easy to abuse. Iskcon history is full of examples showing how poorly this system worked.

Of course the dogmatists like you will argue that no changes are needed - you most likely have a hard time conceiving that there ARE better systems of management. You just like to blame only the people who were executing this system for it's failures.

To a pragmatist like me there is no question Iskcon management should be reformed, perhaps using DOM as a starting kernel of the new system. Why? Because people are NOT perfect, and they WILL try to abuse power given a convenient situation. When creating a mangement system you MUST consider the level of skill and the quality of people who will be implementing it in real life.

The reason why Srila Prabhupada gave Dogma (strict instructions) is to preempt the possibility of students like Kulapavana from attempting to justify “Change” based on their illusory perception that the Acarya’s view lacked pragmatism according to current circumstances. Upon closer examination, everytime a student gives reasons to justify their viewpoint of needed “Change”, the analysis will reveal they are in error.

 

Srila Prabhupada gave power to a lot of ambitious and unqualified people, like Gurukripa of this thread, creating a top down authocratic management system extremely easy to abuse. Iskcon history is full of examples showing how poorly this system worked.

Of course the dogmatists like you will argue that no changes are needed - you most likely have a hard time conceiving that there ARE better systems of management. You just like to blame only the people who were executing this system for it's failures.

To a pragmatist like me there is no question Iskcon management should be reformed, perhaps using DOM as a starting kernel of the new system. Why? Because people are NOT perfect, and they WILL try to abuse power given a convenient situation. When creating a mangement system you MUST consider the level of skill and the quality of people who will be implementing it in real life.

And MY point is that SP was himself exclusively qualified to make any changes to his management system.

 

In case you have not noticed, he is not around to make the changes needed now.

The only thing that needs to be changed in ISKCON is the policy of rejecting the official proclamations that Srila Prabhupada signed.

Srila Prabhupada signed the DOM document yet later on he did many things that were contrary to it, such as appointing temple presidents and GBCs without a vote and making GBCs a position for life.

My point was that SP himself was changing his own decisions as he saw fit at a particular time. Prabhupada wanted to make sure things WORKED, producing desired RESULTS. That what was constant, and that is what should NOT CHANGE.

this claim that Srila Prabhupada mandated no more sannyasis in ISKCON is not supported by any sort of official proclamation from Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada Conversation, January 7, 1977, Bombay:

• Prabhupada: "If you talk in the modern society they will laugh: "What nonsense this man is... 'By sex life one becomes conditioned.' " They cannot understand. Hare Krsna... (japa) This should be strictly outlawed, no more sannyasis. And those sannyasis who have fallen, you get them married, live like a... No more this showbottle, cheating. It is very ludicrous. Even there is a promise that "We shall not fall down again," that is also not believable. What is the use? Better go and speak philosophy in your grhastha dress, not this dress, but you have nice coat, pants, gentleman. Who says no? I never said. Rather I shall be glad to see that up-to-date gentlemen with tilaka and sikha are speaking. That is very prestigious everywhere…"

"And this kind of hypocrisy--they have taken sannyasa and mixing with woman. This is not to be allowed. If you want woman you get yourself married, live respectfully. We have no objection. But this hypocrisy should be stopped. There have been so many fallen down. First of all there will be no sannyasi anymore. I have got very bad experience."

(Room Conversation, 7th January, 1977)

How many times did Prabhupada tell his senior men "don't change ANYTHING after I am gone"?

 

What part of "don't change anything" is up for change?

 

What needs to be changed are the things that did not work, and clearly there was a lot of that around in Iskcon. Prabhupada himself changed things quite often when he saw that they were not working. Like with the sannyasa program. After initiating at least 55 sannyasis and seeing most of them fall down, Prabhupada decided that there will be no more sannyasis in Iskcon. How is that for a major change? Prabhupada was pragmatic, not dogmatic.

It is dogmatic slogans like "don't change ANYTHING Prabhupada implemented" that prevent much needed reforms in our movement.

I would like to hear Gurukripa's recollections of Lalita Prasada. I have read Subal's story but it needs some corroboration.

As to Satsvarupa's diary... not to defend him, just a side comment... - most Iskcon devotees have such a fantastic image of a 'real guru' that they are unable to benefit from sincere accounts of the human side of ANY Vaishnava... it has to be a Marvel grade superhero description only...

Which is true?

Both dvaita and advaita try to describe the reality using an imperfect and imprecise tool of language. We can argue for hundreds of years which better describes the reality without reaching ultimate conclusion.

Instead, I advise you to immerse yourself in the practical process of discovering the reality and see for yourself. Experience Brahman and decide which approach (dvaita or advaita) describes it better.

Many people are afraid of the dark, even if nothing bad ever happened to them in the dark. That is something like the fear of the unknown.

Iskcon devotees criticize the old system of Gaudiya parivars, yet the system they created is far more prone to cheating and abuse. Completely unqualified people were often given sannyasa initiation, only to fall down and create a huge mess all around them. Why did they take sannyas? purely out of desire for fame, profit and distinction. How on earth is that different from the most abusive cases of caste brahmanas? And the gurus by decree, appointment, or group vote - how is that better than being raised in a brahminical family, groomed for their social role from early childhood?

We can say that in the west we did not HAVE brahmanas raised to fulfil their role and that is why Prabhupada had to improvise, but not that the system he created was any better than traditional parivars.

And our attempts to create children raised as brahmanas did not work either... thus our criticism of 'caste goswamis' it totaly hollow...