Kulapavana

There are, undoubtedly, many things which Srila Prabhupada said that are a bitter pill to swallow. Some things he said are justified in roundabout ways to this day. The position of women and blacks, as spoken about by Srila Prabhupada, are most often left out of conversations and most often issues of contention. The position of the jiva is another. When they are brought up it becomes an uncomfortable discussion with one wondering things like, exactly what role it plays in spirituality to announce the primitiveness of a certain race. These are the type of topics which make it difficult for persons to openly hear what Srila Prabhupada has to say.

That is the way I see it as well. Many people are distracted from the real quality and value of these books by such controversial remarks. Still, like you said, many if not most of his followers insist that they are justified and valid. They still propose to build a 'Vedic Planetarium' where the Sun is closer to the Earth than Moon simply because 'Prabhupada said so'.

The books of Narayana Maharaja or Sridhara Maharaja do not seem to generate such emotions in readers. They may not be into the subject matter of these books, but at least they are not turned off by such controversial remarks.

There is a group of academic people who believe we dropped - without any reason - from the tatastha sakti factory into the material universe of samsara. Whenever these highly educated professors say something we have to learn to live with it.

There is a group of sentrimentalists who believe we left the direct association with Krsna - without any reason - and came to explore this material universe of samsara. Whenever these people quote selected statements of their guru, they expect you to reject shastras as well as previous acharyas and blindly follow their new doctrine...

If we didn`t have our original spiritual bodies then there`s no substance to the statement that we are part and parcel of God. It was maya which made us forget we have an original spiritual body with the same Godly qualities as the Lord.

We were and still are Brahman, spirit, part and parcel of God, a minute spark which is part of the dazzling light of brahmajyoti. How is that not being a part of God?

Why do shastras speak about svarupya mukti? Receiving a boon of having a spiritual body just like Lord's Vishnu? Because at the present time you DO NOT have such a developed spiritual body. Gaudiya bhaktas do not desire svarupya mukti because they want to DEVELOP their own spiritual body of the servant of the servants of Krsna.

And for the last time, there is NO MAYA in the spiritual world. It was not maya that brought you to the material world. It was your own desire to explore the dark bank of the Viraja River.

My spiritual body is my original body before I got entangled with maya.

Based on the standard Gaudiya Vaishnava doctrine, we came to this world of maya from tatastha sakti, where our spiritual body was un-developed and un-differentiated (we were all very similar small sparks of consciousness). It is not that we were first gopis and we are now zeros... We received a seed of bhakti from great Vaishnavas, and now we have begun to evolve and grow spiritually, eventually developing full fledged devotional consciousness - our spiritual body is our devotional rasa, a particular way of serving Krsna. In spiritual sense you ARE your spiritual body.

The spiritual body is manifest from the consciousness of the Self. See Vedanta-sutra 4.4.1

 

The spiritual body is never in a separate location from the soul, the conscious self.

 

Prior to the realization of one's siddha-deha (spiritual body), or in other words in the practitioner stage of sadhana bhakti, the spiritual form of the self is of an indeterminate shape. This matter is also dealt with in some detail in Vedanta-sutra 4.4.8-12. The self only manifests a spiritual form (siddha-deha) when the liberated soul has a desire to render service to the Lord through a spiritual form and senses.

 

In Chaitanya Charitamrta, Sri Chaitanya says to Sanatan Goswami (a few times) mukta api lilaya vigraham krtva bhagavantam bhajante. That is, a mukta (liberated soul) who is wanting to engage in bhajan of Bhagavan and to participate in the lila of Bhagavan will "krtva" a "vigraha".

 

The soul will make (krtva) a spiritual body (vigraha) through a transformation of their consciousness-bliss-body (satchitananda). This is explained in the commentary of Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakura, but unfortunately this is not given in your Iskcon publication.

 

The idea that the spiritual body is in the spiritual sky waiting for us, and that we are in a different place from our spiritual body, is directly refuted by Vedavyasa in Vedanta sutra 4.4.1-12. I guess that since Vedanta Sutra is not one of Prabhupada's books some people such as Sarva will not believe what is written there.

Very, very good answers!

 

What a strange statue.

 

It is still happening in some circles:

Dec 05, LONG ISLAND, NEW YORK (SUN) — Dated: July 11, 2008

A DECLARATION OF ALL DISCIPLES OF SRILA PRABHUPADA

WE, THE DISCIPLES AND FOLLOWERS OF HIS DIVINE GRACE A.C.

BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI PRABHUPADA DECLARE THAT:

1. BBT Trustees[1] shall ensure that a sacred spiritual tradition is formed around the books of His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada ("Srila Prabhupada") such that this generation and the subsequent future generations for the next 10,000 years shall treat all of Srila Prabhupada's vani, or teachings, with utmost sacred respect, as words of God.

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-08/editorials3706.htm

"Judge not, that you be judged. For with what judgement you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

 

Yes, we must be judged using the same standards we use for others. It applies to both individual people and religious movements.

What do you think ? In my opinion war cannot be avoided, I see too many signs already.

 

 

Eric, the Revelation is a typical shamanic writing. These visions are usually very private and personal or sometimes related to the entire tribe in which the shaman practices. It is a huge stretch to think such visions speak of the entire Earth, some 2000 yearslater. Typical megalomania of a religious zealot.

Why worry about things you have no way of changing? If there is a big war we may all die. So what? We are destined to die anyway. Just make sure you use your time well.

It's 'pie in the sky' to think you can convince such religious fanatics of any mistake they may make.

 

Like our movement does not have them (mistakes and fanatics)? Should people give up trying to reason with us because of that?

That is why the rational people should prevail by starting proper conflict resolution as soon as possible. A lot of people think a compromise is needed.

Your memory of the story of Jagai and Madhai seems to be a little faulty. The story is specifically about an offense to a Vaishnava, and Lord Caitanya's response was not to "tolerate that offense and consider it a lesson in humilty fom Lord Krishna". Rather Lord Caitanya wanted to punish the offenders severely. Only the person who is offended has the right to forgive the offender.

I thought that the central teaching of this story was that Lord Caitanya did not appear in order to punish the wicked, but to show them mercy. That is what adi-guru Lord Nityananda was teaching.

I did not say anywhere that such offenses should be tolerated without doing anything about it. But WHAT we do about it is a measure of our intelligence and spiritual vision. What I suggested is one of the appropriate actions from BRS: to sit down with an offender and convince them of their error in judgement.

I don't see burning the image of a saint as a lesson from Krishna to make us tolerate that offense. In fact I really dont consider humility to be the tolerance of a saints image being burnt. Humilty is defined differently in the scriptures I read, and duty is likewise defined differently. Tolerating offenses to others is really the opposite of humilty, it is more like cowardice, and by remaining silent we become guilty of that offense.

 

So what would you do? Hang someone? Remember the story of Jagai and Madhai?

In the scriptures you can find verses to justify all kinds of responses in this situation, but ultimately you have to do what is most likely to generate a beneficial outcome.

Kulapavana, Build a model for the world to see (or find one 'on-line') --Take a Picture of it and post it. Like a school project model. So to judge rather than follow blindly yet another salespitch asking me for donations of alligence. Or does that request seem to trivial?

http://www.harcourtschool.com/activity/moon_phases/

Not all Iskcon members are so naive...

Anybody with a $200 telescope can look at the surface of the Moon in the light-to-shadow transition zone and observe how the sunlight interacts with the Moon's mountains and craters. If the Moon was further away than Sun, it's side visible from Earth would always be fully (or almost fully) illuminated by the Sun, i.e the Moon would always be full. You can make a very simple observation using a lightbulb (Sun) and a ball (Moon). This exercise should be mandatory for all Iskcon devotees.

The object of this discussion is not to destroy anybody's faith in their guru, but to put that faith into a proper context.

Srila Prabhupada was a perfect guru because he gave his disciples Krsna, and because he was fully surrendered to Krsna's service - not because everything he said was infallible. He was infallible in his devotion to Krsna.

SP did not believe in Moon landing and I see that as a healthy scepticism. But his insistance on the Moon being further away than Sun is clearly a misunderstanding on his part, most likely due to being unfamiliar with the subject matter. His guru, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, gave a correct distance to the Moon in his translation of Surya Siddhanta.

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Moon Shadows?

Many times I've seen a Half or Quarter Moon in Broad Daylight!

If the sun is up and Shining un-abated and then I can see a full, Half or Quarter Moon in the Sky blue sky ---what has caused the partial shadowing of the moons whole face?

Anybody with a $200 telescope can look at the surface of the Moon in the light-to-shadow transition zone and observe how the sunlight interacts with the Moon's mountains and craters.

If the Moon was further away than Sun, it's side visible from Earth would always be fully (or almost fully) illuminated by the Sun, i.e the Moon would always be full. You can make a very simple observation using a lightbulb (Sun) and a ball (Moon). This exercise should be mandatory for all Iskcon devotees.

The object of this discussion is not to destroy anybody's faith in their guru, but to put that faith into a proper context.

Srila Prabhupada was a perfect guru because he gave his disciples Krsna, and because he was fully surrendered to Krsna's service - not because everything he said was infallible. He was infallible in his devotion to Krsna.

Iskcon devotees think: We are better servants of Lord Jagannatha!

Puri temple priests think: We are better servants of Lord Jagannatha!

Genuine competition of the eager servants or just an ego trip? Hard to tell... we will judge by the results. Will the service increase? Will more people be inspired to serve Lord Jagannatha?

Lord Caitanya did not organize harinama protests to get Haridasa Thakura admitted to the Puri Temple - He praised Thakura's humility. Maybe that is the real lesson: humility. Iskcon very often comes across as arrogant. Maybe this is another lesson from Krsna to teach us more humility. IMHO Iskcon leaders should sit down with the Puri pandas and work out a mutually acceptable compromise. Just like Lord Chaitanya an Kazi. He convinced Kazi with His humility, thoughtfulnes, wisdom, and kindness. It is not just a story - it is an instruction to be followed by all His followers.

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Iskcon devotees think: We are better servants of Lord Jagannatha!

Puri temple priests think: We are better servants of Lord Jagannatha!

Genuine competition of the eager servants or jest an ego trip? Hard to tell... we will judge by the results. Will the service increase? Will more people be inspired to serve Lord Jagannatha?

Lord Caitanya did not organize harinama protests to get Haridasa Thakura admitted to the Puri Temple - He praised Thakura's humility. Maybe that is the real lesson: humility. Iskcon very often comes across as arrogant. Maybe this is another lesson from Krsna to teach us more humility. IMHO Iskcon leaders should sit down with the Puri pandas and work out a mutually acceptable compromise. Just like Lord Chaitanya an Kazi. He convinced Kazi with His humility, thoughtfulnes, wisdom, and kindness. It is not just a story - it is an instruction to be followed by all His followers.

And what are Varaha prabhu's farming credentials? How many crops did he raise in his life?

My prayers are with him, however little they mean. Such situations are sobering for all of us. We should be serious about serving the Lord and getting ready for our own exit.

I hope Maharaja is not suffering from too much pain. I am not very afraid of death itself, but I am afraid of lots of pain.

I have personally met Maharaja just recently, and he made a very good impression on me. My pranams to him and his disciples and wellwishers.

Finally Mujibar concludes electricity is something bad, something that doesn't work, becomes frustrated and loses his faith. In the village pub they tell him, what is also stated above, chose another.

 

But why not go to the authorized electrician in the first place?

 

How do you know you have electricity in your house? Because your lights are on.

I see plenty of lights outside Iskcon and Prabhupada disciples, and quite a few dark corners inside the institution Prabhupada created.

Let me translate that so that Joe Public brain can understand:

The claims that only Prabhupada is authorized as a Vaishnava acharya are 100% bogus.

What presently is done is that people are being told, "our spiritual masters are approved". Why they are afraid to say, they might be kanisthas, quit office, fall down, become suspended, excommunicated, etc etc.

I talk to a lot of new people in our movement and they are far, far from being poorly informed. They all know the basic history of Iskcon and none of them think that their chosen guru is above the possibility of a fall-down. They often approach devotees that have been around for a long time for advice in chosing a guru. And they usually chose wisely. Maybe in Africa, India, or Asia, it is different, but in Europe and USA things are just like I described.

Also, many devotees who initially start in Iskcon end up chosing a guru from other organizations. I see it all the time.

To compare a simple renunciate sannyasi, ashram of vedic society with parampara guru, spiritual master of the most important sampradaya, full-fledged diksa-guru? Isn't this like comparing two totally different terms? To say that when sannyasis fall down therefore gurus might possibly also fall down, just doesn't makes sense - clearly shows how people live in a total illusion, lost touch with reality.

Srila Prabhupada's disciples introduced a notion, that the only real and bona-fide guru is a maha-bhagavata sampradaya acharya. That is a complete concoction. SP says in NOD that even a kanishta bhakta can be a guru. And very often this is precisely who gets approved by the GBC. Are you shocked that a kanistha guru falls down? I'm not.

What I wrote above is to show that approval does not ensure success. A sannyasi is a natural guru. Prahupada started initiating disciples in Jhansi, even before he became sannyasi, but after taking sannyasa he initiated quite a few people rather quickly (that was still in India). To his senior Godbrothers he explained that as a sannyasi, he must take on disciples. And nobody in GM had a problem with that, because this a vedic system.

Now some of Srila Prabhupada's disciples invented a bizzare set of rules, under which the only bona fide guru for ever is Srila Prabhupada. And they act surprised when everybody considers them to be a bunch of deviants.

could you tell us more about the pancaratrika injuctions?

According to the pancaratrika injunctions NOBODY is to be worshipped in front of the Deities. That is why Deity curtains are closed even for the worship of Tulasi-devi. A disciple is permitted to place his guru shoes on the left side and lower of the Deities. Placing images or murtis of your guru is never mentioned in the pancaratrik system.

yes it s a fact that many disciples were hungry for being gurus, but

it seems that the solution was worst, too much stress on his worship and many wanted to imitate him, it seems that the most rasoneable solution was stopping his own worship and not stressing it, even it was useless his own legal letter about his ritvik system for this very same reason: not teaching with his example.

In hindsight it is easy to say that. Actually I think even a better solution would have been removing challengers from Iskcon altogether. I have absolutely no idea why Srila Prabhupada not only allowed Kirtanananda to remain in Iskcon after his numerous deviations and indiscretions, but made him one of the most important leaders in his movement, and in 1977 authorizing him to be a guru.

What you actually mean by approved? Can an "approved guru" for example fall down? And leave his disciples in great confusion?

Approved - and what happens if a guru is not approved?

Can he still be a bona fide guru?

For example a not "approved guru" does great preaching work and opens lots of temples and makes many people to chant the holy name, is he still "not approved"?

Just trying to find out what this "approved" actually means?

 

 

 

Do you mean to say that so many others who deviated, like Harikes, did not give our movement a bad name?

Some 90% of sannyasis approved by Prabhupada fell down. Proof positive that approval is no guarantee of success. When he approved them, were they proper (bona fide) sannyasis? When they fell down, did it not create confusion among the devotees?

Srila Prabhupada had in mind a guru approval system as well - you pass the Bhaktivedanta level exam and you can start initiating your own disciples. That was his plan. He certainly approved before his passing several persons as initiating gurus - most of them fell down. Again, proof positive that approval is no guarantee of success.

So somehow Srila Prabhupada's system was all perfect, and the GBC system is all wrong?? That is as bogus as it gets...

The list of our deviants is very long and Harikesa's name is on it too - I just listed some of the more abhorrent ones.

"No reasonable attempt is ever made to discuss deviations, such as the 2/3rd majority voting system that stamps a person as a maha-bhagavat within ISKCON". Kurma (the liar)

No such thing... nobody is saying that people approved by GBC to take disciples are maha-bhagavats.

Lie #1: "All gurus are maha-bhagavats"

Lie #2: "GBC is rubber stamping bogus gurus"

Lie #3: "GBC is rubber stamping fake maha bhagavats"

Clowns like him give our movement a bad name, just like the Bhavanandas, Kirtanannandas, Hansaduttas of the past.

at my house lot of tulasi maharani are present. and every year during the winter i face the problem. the problem is that during winter season the leaves are falling and getting yellow color. and eventhough i am adding water whenever necessary and also preserving with all the basic things.

 

Prabhu, check the underside of the yellowing leaves with a magnifying lens for mites or other microscopic bugs. I always have to spray my Tulasis with organic pesticides for mite control in winter.