Kulapavana

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sonic Yogi

Well, Srila Prabhupada also recognized Jesus and Mohammad.

Neither one of them had any Vedic parampara.

Now, why he recognized them two and none of the Indians without proper parampara is certainly curious.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

SP recognized Jesus and Mohammed, because he didn't have a choice. He was trying to appeal to a western audience, so he couldn't dare antagonize them, it was a clever political move, if I may say so.

I think there was more to it... IMO Srila Prabhupada wanted to transform Gaudiya Vaishnavism into a major religion like Christianity or Islam.

What a crock. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur is on record glorifying his Diska Guru's qualities and there is no actual factual evidence presented by any bonafide researcher that he "rejected his diksa guru" as the myth goes.

Yes, Bipin Bihari was the actual guru (in every way) of Srila Bhaktivinoda and so technically speaking our sampradaya should have been drawn through his line. He was the one who arranged for the title 'Bhaktivinoda' be given to his disciple by the assembly of learned Vaishnavas. Unfortunately, after BVT passed on, Bipin Bihari rejected him as a disciple on account of suspicion that some of the ancient texts used by BVT in support of his preaching were actually forgeries. That incident might have played a role in a way BST formulated our disciplic line.

This parampara issue means NOTHING TO ME.

It only matters to a few hereditary brahmans who are totally bereft of spiritual qualities and only angry because they want to continue their trade as professional priests in India.

For me, the only reason I even read Srila Prabhupada's books was that he represented an ancient disciplic succession. I do not care for self made gurus.

And you are completely wrong about hereditary brahmanas in general. Just read Bhaktivinoda Thakura. They carried our tradition from day one (and still are the carriers of our tradition). The rift started with Srila Bhaktisiddhanta. And in Iskcon hereditary brahmanas were replaced with rubber stamped sannyasis and gurus. Big friggin improvement...

Our sampradaya should drop all pretenses to Madhva's lineage - we are nowhere near these Vaishnavas in both philosophy and mood of service. We should simply claim lineage from Lord Caitanya.

The rejection of the actual guru of Srila Bhaktivinoda, Bipina Bihari Goswami, was also a very controversial move, based on rather personal animosity of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta towards that Vaishnava.

There is too much reliance on idividual gurus in our line - once they make a controversial decision you are stuck with it. That is why our lineage is so fragmented.

But done is done. That's the point.

No, the point is that if someone kills your son in an unfair manner it is OK to kill him in an unfair manner. This is exactly what Krsna said to Arjuna. The rest is pure speculation on your behalf.

yes... stepping over someone is extremely adharmic, and we can clearly conclude from this example that it is OK to steal from others if we need money for devotional service...

(sarcasm fully intended)

I seem to remember something about ordering Arjuna to break with Ksatriya code and kill a man while he was down and unarmed or something like that.

 

that was a payback for Karna's un-aryan behavior when killing Arjuna's son, Abhimanyu

Just curious. Didn't Krisha himself advocate adharmic means to achieve a dharmic end? Doesn't this show that it's only the end that matters, and if the end is dharmic, then the means wouldn't matter that much?

and precisely what adharmic means did Lord Krsna advocate?

When you see that the joke was on everyone involved, then you include yourself in it, and will no longer be bitter about suffering at the hands of those madmen, you will realize it was all arranged by Krsna, that Iskcon's reputation is reparable for those who will benefit from it having a good reputation, that those who look askance at Iskcon because of its troubles, were not desirous at heart for Krsna consciousness anyway, and then you can hold your righteous stance without attachment or anger and fight with glee and joy.

I realized very early on the improprieties that were taking place in Iskcon and refused to take part in them. I am not bitter about my own suffering... maybe a little... but I am really bitter for all the suffering others had to go through... countless lives twisted and mangled because of our puffed up dogmatic doctrines and our crooked leaders. It gives me joy if I can help even one disgruntled devotee re-discover the beauty of Krsna consciousness.

I most certainly do not want to resurect the Iskcon of the 60's or 70's. It is time for a new chapter.

You have all the material piety down pat. If you can realize Srila Prabhupada's transcendental perogative, realize that in the end the joke is meant to be on you and your material righteousness...

Actually, the joke seems to be very much on Iskcon and it's leaders thinking that they were, are, or ever will be, above what you call 'material righteousness'. Our good reputation was severely damaged when all these shenanigans were exposed to the public and it is only now that we are slowly rebuilding it. The temples are quite empty and the devotees few and far in between.

Arya means 'one who is noble'.

Oh well, seems you have learned very little these past few days.

 

yes, the past few days were kinda quiet compared with certain periods in my last 30 years of learning. I'm sorry you are disappointed with me.

Did you bother to read the rest of that post I made? Because it sure doesn't look like it from your hurried response.

It was not hurried. Read it again.

A Saktavesha avatara said it was just fine for Bhaktas under certain conditions to steal to serve the Lord. He sanctioned such himself.

And the Lord in His form of Time has smashed this idea to pieces. That is what makes sense to me.

You can't build future unless you understand the past and the present, as the are the foundation of the future.

I do not particularly like homosexuals and I find their practices disgusting. Yet, as I said before, I see nothing wrong when someone blesses them in an email encouraging them to seek spirituality.

Lack of common sense in the past is linked to the lack of common sense in the present, and that tells me that it will be a part of the future as well.

Since Krsna already has everything you do not need to steal from others to give it to Him. I detest the idea of 'end justifies the means' - it is Talmudic, not Vedic.

And he certainly wasn't silent about the Magnificent 11; he detested them. I hadn't seen him in twenty years, then I ran into him in India about two years ago. Now he seems to be developing some kind of Guru-complex, like maybe he's running out of time to become a guru. Guru or bust.

He probably regretted not getting into their fabulous guru-con act and not being part of their mob...

Prabhupada said that in a private letter. Not in an open class, nor in a open conversation with His disciples, and absolutly not in any books. So now you want to again make a comparison of apples to oranges for the benifit of homos and low class, charlitan so-called gurus.

 

Yes, big mistake... Hridayananda should not have put his blessing in writing...

Not the approach, which is explained by Prabhupada as OK. It was the practisioners.

 

Yes, it was OK to steal, just not OK to get caught... very poor practice

Not really.

That stuff has all blown over.

What is holding back ISKCON now is the enemy within.

 

IMO what's holding Iskcon back is the same lack of common sense and dogmatism that made past mistakes possible.

Srila Prabhupada condemed homosex, but accepted REFORMED fags/persons as desciples. the opperative word here is reformed. Not that they were fallen and Prabhupada them gave 'marrage' sanction!

 

Were do you see Hridayananda praising homosex? Did he initiate these guys? So what is your basic malfunction?

As to the Mott Street boys being EVER reformed is an open question. Bhavs was never reformed either and the Mayapur shooting incident was caused by him punking a local kid - that is based not on official Iskcon legend but on the testimony of people who were there at the time. Perhaps Prabhupada did not know about their homosexual exploits after initiation, but I doubt it. These guys had a lot of enemies who knew what was going on and who had direct access to SP.

Again, I see that as the principle of 'end justifies the means'. You condemn theft, you condemn homosexuality, but under some circumstances you give it sanction. Did Prabhupada not tell some gay disciple (Umapati?) to stick to one boyfriend and practice KC? If so, what is your problem with Hridayananda's blessing?

Prabhupāda: Yes. This preaching is also required, to make the groundwork. Because nobody's taking care. Just like some of the devotees, great devotees, they took the profession of becoming thief. They, in South India, it was done so. They took the profession of becoming thief. So a devotee is a thief? But he took. They took it. Because nobody was paying. So they organized a plundering party. "Plunder all these big men." Just like the politicians do. There is history. Yes. So even up to the point to become a thief, devotees took it. Yes. And the gopīs, even up to the point of becoming prostitute—for Kṛṣṇa. So for Kṛṣṇa's sake we have to accept any nonsense type of business. Or on the highest grade. Anything. But for Kṛṣṇa we have to do that.

Yes, that was the practice: end justifies the means. And this approach had very serious consequences for our movement. Very bad consequences.

OH MY GOD! Have you not searched homosex on the folio? Have you not read these results? Please show homosex minimaztion, as to be not so important a concideration. No not there! I have seen and so have others that Prabhupada even periodically had a hard time referenceing the subject.

 

No problem with it?

 

RCB

Why then did he give sannyasa to an openly homosexual disciple like Kirtananda? how about Bhavs? That guy was a homosexual gigolo before he joined... Prabhupada made them into leaders of his movement and gave them sannyasa. And you are freaking out because Hridayananda send a blessing to some gay people?

Different times, places and circumstances. Neither is Diarrhea-Honda even a guru! let alone to be put in any way or form on the same level as comparable Srila Prabhupada's action? That you would in the same breath compare the two makes me vomit!!!!!

 

It would appear that for these two individuals Hridayananda swami is some sort of an authority figure who tries to encourage them in spiritual life. Hence the comparison. Jumping to conclusions is your act.

Please don't try to lay all this crap on SP as if he sanctioned it.

So you are saying that SP had no idea how the money was collected by Gurukripa and others? That nobody warned him that money was being collected by crooked means? That is not what I heard from those who were close to these issues. That he thought vast sums of money were collected even as the numbers of books distributed by these people could not account for the profits?

Interesting...

I had problems with his overly aggressive fundraising, but he never came on like he was anything other that how he presented himself. He was a thug, happy to be a thug, and I liked his thuggery. At least he wasnt a hypocrite and falsely "spiritual" like the others who were REALLY the thugs.

Yes... and that is why he took sannyasa from Prabhupada...

He was one of them fighting sannyasis, carrying a big danda as a weapon...

He still likes the expensive watches