Kulapavana

For you to suggest a person to just show up at "any Krsna temple" shows your lack of compassion and concern for what usually happens to people who do. All in the name of defending your half-baked philosophy on why you find fault with a Sampradaya Acarya. Too bad for you, I hope you get better from your illness.

When was the last time you showed up at Lord Krsna's temple ready to mop the floor for Him? Try it... it will do you a world of good. I say that out of compassion for you and all other keyboard philosophers ready to badmouth anybody who does not fit their standard of purity and devotion.

And I am not finding fault with Srila Prabhupada but with those of his fanatic followers who make claims the entire world is laughing at. SP's program was neither fool-proof nor perfect and complete - it was an impressive work-in-progress which accomplished a very significant part of Lord Caitanya's mission. Spiritual life is never static - it must continually grow and evolve. That is why we have guru parampara. The mission SP created must evolve and adapt or it will become dead and irrelevant to people. It will then be replaced with other missions. I can see the signs of that already.

You may live in your 1960's time warp but others will only find you completely irrelevant. Every day I talk to new people discovering the precious jewels of Srila Prabhupada, Sridhara Maharaja, Narayana Maharaja, and other great Gaudiya Vaishnavas. This is NOW... deal with it.

i used to wonder..what was in that prasadam...years later i found out the small leaf in the stew was tulsi!!

yes... that is spoken by a real devotee...

What a twisted logic. You are basically saying his demand for military like discipline was flawed. period. As if it could NOT be utilized for positive results. That is irrational.

I did serve in the military so I can relate to the military discipline. But in the military renegade commanders like K-swami would have been court martialled and possibly shot for treason. Instead Srila Prabhupada forgave him at least a couple of times for very serious transgressions. So you are right - there was no military discipline in Iskcon because it was not a military.

Thus there is no reason for you to harp on the point of 'absolute surrender to the supreme program of the supreme commander'. We are a volountary organization based on pragmatic principles of 'judge by the results'.

What temple do you suggest? Mind you for someone who is chaste to all the instructions Srila Prabhupada gave, it is a current fact on the ground thatmost every temple is not run strictly according to his standard.

go to any Krsna temple and mop the floor - it will do you more good than all the mental gymnastics you do here on the internet.

I know many nice temples with devotees who inspire me to serve Krsna, starting with the one where I live, in Prabhupada Village, NC. We have all sorts of devotees here serving together. It works for me and I like it. That is my standard: judge by the results.

Otherwise, If the Lord wills, my own situation will purify and grow and attract those who would see something similar in my following of His Vani, and seek to harmonize with me as leader for a spell.

Best wishes to you and your preaching program.

...I have only met one person who could organize a group of 2 or more new Bhaktas and persuade them to keep to the "military like discipline" (as he called it) of his organizational structure. And that was A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami himself. And he had his hands full correcting the deviations from that program personally, and constantly.

You may also want to add that despite all of his efforts many of his disciples still managed to create some pretty horrible deviations in his presence, let alone after his departure.

What does that tell you about the program itself? That despite "military like discipline" it can still be easily abused? That despite providing 'perfect sadhu-sanga' still generated more dropouts than just about any religion I can think of?

It also seems to me the demand for 'military like discipline' did more damage than good in our movement, especially when used by crooked leaders we have had over the years. Let Theist tell you how he liked that kind of sadhu-sanga... it did not work for him, and it did not work for most other people.

..So, barring the appearance of a new self-effulgent acarya, it is incumbent on anyone who wishes to revive and restore such a sadhu-sanga to become intimate with the Swami's program of Daiva Vaidhi Bhakti, practice it without deviation, and offer it to others.

 

All other sanga, including just talking with me and me alone on the internet, is of some other character and can offer some limited shadow version only.

..

I was not advising Theist to talk to people on the internet. I was advising him to perform some practical seva in a company of devotees. Washing pots, sweeping the temple, cooking for the Sunday feast... this kind of stuff. Perhaps it has been far too long since you did any of such seva to realize it's value.

As if a person does not want to hear Krsna kattah, without first getting warm and fuzzy with some nice people (what you call Sadhu-sanga). But if a person comes upon REAL sadhu-sanga, their first experience IS HEARING.

In case you have not noticed... even after distributing hundreds of millions books all over the world the HK movement is still a very marginal religion, struggling to survive in most places. To me that is a proof that books alone (what you call REAL sadhu-sanga) do not make people Krsna conscious, except perhaps in some rare cases. It takes that physical sadhu-sanga with nice devotees you are berating above to make people Krsna conscious. I have seen it in action over the last 30 years.

And IMO this is what Theist needs: he needs to associate and serve with some nice devotees. He needs to do something practical - an engagement in real seva.

Bhakti Yoga 101.

 

The first limb of devotional SERVICE is HEARING.

Thank you for the lecture, but you misunderstood my point. Some people have no taste for the hearing Krsna-katha. Do you find that strange to accept? That is where sadhu-sanga comes in: associating with nice devotees inspires people to hear. Associating with not-so-nice devotees inspires people to run for the hills.

You judge by the results.

The only Sadhu Sanga that is bonafide are those personages who will not neglect this aspect of the Acaryas teachings, in my humble opinion.

 

All others are fit to be avoided, because they invariably are looking to procure servants to expand the influence of their speculative mission.

If you think that the association of regular devotees is not sadhu-sanga, that is your loss.

I like to associate with devotees of all kinds, provided that they are not envious or offensive to other Vaishnavas. Others I respect and avoid.

Service begins with Hearing. Then chanting.

First you have to get to the point where you want to serve. People were inspired to serve because they were exposed to the sadhu sanga. If we associate with other devotees the service atitude arises in our heart.

Yes, these things ultimately boil down to an affair of our heart...

Proper sadhu sanga melts our heart... that is what we all need: the company of sadhus to change our heart. Every time I visit our temple my heart melts just a little bit due to all the nice devotees who come there.

Theist-ji... maybe you feel top heavy because your legs are weak? Legs are the manifestation of service. See SB 3.6.33:

TRANSLATION

Thereafter, service was manifested from the legs of the Personality of Godhead for the sake of perfecting the religious function. Situated on the legs are the śūdras, who satisfy the Lord by service.

PURPORT

Service is the real constitutional occupation of all living entities. The living entities are meant to render service to the Lord, and they can attain religious perfection by this service attitude. One cannot attain religious perfection simply by speculating to attain theoretical knowledge...

More here: http://vedabase.net/sb/3/6/33/en

The sect teaches that Krishna is the supreme god. Followers hope to attain god-consciousness, giving up the illusion of individuality, merging with the all-encompassing person of Krishna.

What a breath-taking leap of logic! Clearly, if I am striving for this god-consciousness, I can never say, “I have reached god-consciousness.”

Another moronic crusader, too lazy or too stupid to understand the basic things about what he is criticizing.

Unfortunately most of these abrahamic religion followers are like that: 'only my religion is right, and you heathens will go to hell' - because this is precisely what these religions teach.

Strange how close the name "Abraham" is to "Brahma." And how close "Sarah" is to "Sarasvati." So here was the Hebraic religion that, in a veiled, allegorical manner, seems to have, at least possibly, acknowledged its descent from Lord Brahma. Later in the history of this religion some sage, or prophet, discovered, or revealed, a meditational symbol, "Aleph," that revealed Brahman to the serious seekers. Thereby was begun the first "monotheistic" religion, which we term on this forum "monism."

Over the years I have talked to several sanskrit and ancient language scholars and most of them seem to think these similarities are only superficial.

Initially Yahveh was a desert god and had a female consort, Asherah. Some people worshipped Yahvah, some worshipped Asherah, some worshipped both. The Torah was put together by the priests to legitimize the tribal conquest of the ancient Hebrews and to unify their tribe around one god and one way of worship.

Kulapavana, your statement just doesn't have the capacity to be substantiated. Israel has not done this, nor has it attempted to do it. Again and again, it is the culturing of Muslim hate and fanatacism which justifies attacking Jews.

Gaza is a perfect example of the Israeli politics of 'quiet genocide'. They bomb and starve Arab civilians, disrupt humanitarian services, destroy civil infrastructure, deny them help from international community, shoot women and children with total impunity.

Lets look at the statistics... WHO KILLED MORE INNOCENT PEOPLE? Jewish terrorists or Arab terrorists?

Here is an indepth look at the fatalities provided by a jewish source:

http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp

Let us also examine which side puts on explosive belts, goes to the land of the other and blows up the belts in the middle of crowded civilian areas. Only the Muslims do that, not the Israelis.

Israelis do the same using rockets fired from drones and artillery shells. They routinely kill 20 or more civilians for every 'terrorist' they target. You don't seem to have a problem with that - a curious sense of justice.

Israelis block even the humanitarian aid to civilians in Gaza. Their policies amount to genocide: wholsale slaughter of entire populations.

I am not defending the Muslim terrorists and their tactics. But the Israeli terrorists are just as bad, if not worse.

....In all, the NKVD executed almost half the Polish officer corps."

Why has Hollywood ignored this story? So there should be no surprise that a film about Christian martyrs and patriots coming from an anachronism called a nation like Poland will be quietly swept under the carpet by Hollywood.

Jewish Hollywood always ignored the crimes comitted by the Jews and their allies. The Stalinist atrocities were ignored as well as the crimes of the Allies agains the German people. After the passage of the front, Russians continued to operate the Auschwitz camp, populating it with Germans and anti-communist Poles. The show was run by the largely Jewish NKWD. Many other camps were operated by them as well, using facilities built by the Nazis. By some accounts over a million people lost their lives in communist camps in Poland alone, mostly Germans and Poles. http://www.ety.com/HRP/jewishstudies/crimesafterwwII.htm

Kulapavana, in all sincerity, what do you suppose would happen if "the Americans and Israelis" stop fighting?

There would be peace. The strong must show the weak their willingness to compromise. Isreal is exploiting the war to expand their territory and to kill their political opponents. And US is their dog of war.

In the face of grave injustice and abuse of power, people turn to radical militant ideologies.

http://www.theneocoins.com/ These people have more innocent blood on their hands than any Muslim terrorist.

It is quite easy to make lofty moral pronouncements when the rockets fired from Gaza are not falling on your house.

I bet if you lived in Gaza you would see Israel's reaction to these rockets as a genocide.

In the heart of every man there are two wolves fighting: love and hate. The one you feed more wins...

- Lakota proverb -

<LAKOTA proverb>

It is proper to respond violently to violence, but it must be done in the spirit of love, compassion, and justice. That is what Maharaja Pariksit did.

Hate just breeds more hate, and injustice breeds more injustice. American and Israeli 'war on terrorism' just breeds more terrorism because it is based on hate and injustice.

Came on people ... what is wrong with you all? The Gods of Hindusm did not go around parading, claiming that they are greater than another deity, WHY the hell are you people doing that mistake in name of your gods?

 

It is still much better than the 3000 years of constant bloodshed in the name of your exclusive G_d

...But what came as a surprise to me is what followed. Muktananda not only knew what soma was, but he assured me that it was still being used in India to this very day. As a matter of fact, he claimed that he was in regular contact with vedic priests who were using it in their rituals. And according to baba some of these priests actually came every year down from the mountains to ganeshpuri, a little village south of bombay, to celebrate his birthday...baba extened his invitation to christina and me to visit his ashram at the time of his birthday and promised to make arrangements for us to participate in this ancient ritual...

That is pretty far out! Lucky you!

Perhaps if Srila Prabhupada was actually treated properly for his diabetes he would have stayed with us for several more years. He did not follow proper diet, did not take insulin, and did not monitor his blood sugar levels.

..that morning I knew these young bhaktas were on the path to profound substance free God consciousness.. and through that I could see the greatness of the modern sankirtan, and its relevance for intelligent pure young men and woman of today.

Yes, it still happens here and there. I see it now and then as well. I think part of the reason is the lack of good kirtan leaders and drummers. The beat of the drum is the most important instrumental part of the kirtan. Often it is too irregular and weak to help anybody with reaching the trance. We need to really 'go native' on that one, go aboriginal...

Why would make the tradition shallow? it is a fact that shamans wo uses these plants indeed have reached some of the same levels of counciousness as vedic enlighted masters, if you read the story about Maria Sabina it clearly proves my case she has great telephatic abilities and healing powers something that shows her high level of counciousness.

If the psychedelic experience was hollow how can it lead to such powers?

 

Soma-ji... it is a lot more complex than that. I have studied shamanic practices and they have many, many layers.

Most halucinogenic plants lead our consciousness towards the lower worlds, some (especially those from the Solanacea family) leading into the lowest stratas of the Universe, with great risk of death or separation from the physical body of the shaman. Soma was different... it lead to the higher worlds.

The telepathic abilities are the effect of being able to read the akhas (ether) which stores the image of every thought, every feeling, and every physical act that took place, is taking place, or is contemplated to take place. Even many evil spirits can read akhas.

The yogis achieved the shamanic trance through meditation. Shivaite masters sometimes communicate with their Naaga guides using ganja, but these are still lower worlds. They may have great powers but it is not quite the spirituality of our Vaishnava tradition.

In some natural cultures (Australian Aborigenees for example) the state of shamanic trance is obtained without any hallucinogens, through sacred chant and dance. Aborigenees danced in special places which were doorways to the Dreamtime. They were rhytmically striking the ground with their heels, calling on the spirits of their ancestors to open the gate, chanting sacred songs to transform their consciousness and enable it to enter the Dreamtime.

Kirtan is meant for us to experience spiritual reality, where the sacred sound of the Holy Name is identical with God. The reason Srila Prabhupada's kirtans were such a hit with the hippies was that they were open to this extrasensory reality, and his chanting was pure and potent. They had genuine shamanic journeys into the extrasensory world of the Holy Name.

Alas, we have lost that type of primeval magic in our movement...