Kulapavana

For example no one in the hare krsnas' sampradaya was worshipped like Srila Prabhupada, why I should worship him? really I think that this is idolatry and is harmful for the spiritual life...

Personally, I think that daily guru-puja in front of the Deities is not appropriate for any guru, not even Srila Prabhupada. It goes against the pancharatrik injunctions and sets a dangerous precedent. Placing murtis of the guru on the altar is also not part of our tradition. Our Iskcon standards of guru worship are way over the top, dissuading many people from taking our movement seriously.

I know why Srila Prabhupada implemented elaborate worship of guru in his movement - there were many people among his disciples who wanted to take Prabhupada's place. Some (like Kirtanananda) wanted to do it shortly after becoming his disciples, others (like the LA group in 1970) tried to do it after they acquired some power and followers. With so many disciples greedy for power, profit, and distinction, Prabhupada wanted to keep his movement together by focusing worship on him, as the founder acharya of Iskcon. It was a political decision and at the time probably the only practical solution.

The Story of Ajamila is a goofed up story to glorify the strength of the name of Lord Vishnu. If that is the case, the Karma-Siddhanta goes for a toss.

Not really. The story clearly says that Ajamila: "renounced everything to which he was attached, went to Benares and engaged himself in austerities and meditation and in due time reached the abode of the Lord." Thus we can assume that Ajamila performed all required atonement (prayascita) and self-purification for his sins.

What is very misleading is the lack of emphasis on that later part of the story among the Iskcon preachers, and claims by them that a mere accidental utterance of the Holy Name by Ajamila allowed him to enter into Vaikuntha. That is a bogus claim, in the category of religious propaganda, however well intentioned.

How does that jive with the story of Ajamila. My understanding is that Ajamila was headed to hell but he accidently chanted his sons name that was Krishna and he was saved by Krishna as a result of chanting Krishna's name. In other words he thought he was going to hell but ended up in the ultimate heaven.

the story of Ajamila is much more complex than that. he was a good brahmana by nature, who by a force of circumstances became degraded to a level of a common thief. Earlier in life he performed plenty of good deeds and naming his son Narayan was hardly accidental as he had attachment for that sound vibration and what it represented. Thus he got a second chance at the time of death, he got to see the Yamadutas and Vishnudutas side by side, arguing about his fate. That was an important lesson for him. It is important to note that Ajamila did not die at that time, and later led exemplary life, atoning for his sins. He was taken to Vaikuntha only after he became properly qualified, not because he accidentally chanted the Holy Name.

thats the logic behind yato mat tato pat.

Earlier you said:

'Destination' means reaching the end of spiritual realisation.According to all schools of Hindu philosophy destination is reached in actual realisation of god(be it prema bhakti or nirvana).Now according to your view there are multiple destinations(multiple end points)for different paths.That would imply that truth or god is mutiple.Surely truth cannot be more than one.God is truth and god is absolute,to that we all agree.Absolute truth cannot have a dual existence,can it??

 

That again prooves that paths are different but goal has to be same.Yato mat tato pat !!!

The saying: 'Yato mat tato pat' essentially means that there is only one goal in the multitude of religious and spiritual paths. Since now you understand that there are many goals, and that they are very unique, you can also understand that the paths are unique as well.

'Yato mat tato pat' is a simplification aimed at ending religious divisions and disagreements. That is a noble purpose, but because ultimately this saying is not true, the purpose remains unfulfilled.

Those who are going to hell know very well where they are going. Nobody gets there by accident. Those who are going to Shivaloka also know where they are going and do not get there by accident. Same with Vaikunthaloka and Vishnu-bhaktas. Different roads, different goals - what is so hard to understand?

ANYBODY can see that the Moon is closer to Earth than Sun. Just observe the time when Sun and Moon are both simoultanously visible from Earth. Look at the pattern of light and shade on the Moon. You will see the part of the Moon illuminated by the Sun as well as the shaded area. If Moon was further away than Sun we would always see a full, or close to full, Moon. Simple geometric fact. Make an experiment with a light bulb and a ball to observe it directly. All ancient astronomers knew that, including those in India.

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Btw, anybody who knows the REASON why all the planets (maybe with the exception of the Earth) and stars are spinning around their axis?

movement of objects through space generates movement around their axis as well, primarily through gravitational and centrifugal forces. In space nothing is truly static and objects interact with one another through various forces: gravitational, electric, and magnetic. once an object is in general motion (has momentum) even minor outside forces will cause it to spin around it's axis.

Bhagavad Gita 4.9 "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance (janma) and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode"

Both appearance and disappearance of the Lord are divine and transcendental. Krsna is like an actor putting on a show for us.

I read in the book "Vedic Cosmology" by Danavir Goswami that the Earth actually is not spinning around its axis!

 

The movement of two objects can be described in many ways, depending on the reference point we chose. However, it is completely false to claim that heliocentric description is incorrect (Earth is spinning around its axis while spinning around the Sun) and that only Earth centred descriptions (Sun rotates around Earth) are true.

Danavir swami has no formal science training and most of what he writes is just a faith based religious propaganda.

Surely truth cannot be more than one.God is truth and god is absolute,to that we all agree.Absolute truth cannot have a dual existence,can it??

 

That again prooves that paths are different but goal has to be same.Yato mat tato pat !!!

That is a very simplistic idea. It is not about duality but about variety of God's existence. I am a person and there is variety in my relationships with others. I am a father, a husband, a friend, etc. Different paths lead to each one of such realtionships. Why do you think God has less complexity than I do?

'Destination' means reaching the end of spiritual realisation.According to all schools of Hindu philosophy destination is reached in actual realisation of god(be it prema bhakti or nirvana).Now according to your view there are multiple destinations(multiple end points)for different paths.That would imply that truth or god is mutiple.Surely truth cannot be more than one.God is truth and god is absolute,to that we all agree.Absolute truth cannot have a dual existence,can it??

 

That again prooves that paths are different but goal has to be same.Yato mat tato pat !!!

You honestly think there is no difference between nirvana and prema bhakti? You think that there are no gradations in the realization of God? No variety of relationships with God? You think that Lord Shiva's worshippers and Vishnu bhaktas are after the same parama-gatim (ultimate goal), and that their realization of God are the same?

I don't. Different rasas (realizations of God) are not obtained on the same paths. Shiva bhaktas have their path, and Krishna bhaktas have another.

Some people think God is just one flavor, one realization, one rasa. I believe that there is no limit to the variety of God's manifestations and our realationships with Him.

....if you do not belive in yato mat tato pat whats your belief? Is it one mat only path or something like that ?? Does it imply that except the ones following your path the rest are suppossed to rot in hell?????

There are many destinations, and therefore many different paths to reach them. If your idea of God is simply the udifferentiated Brahman, than you may be thinking that all paths directed towards God ultimately end in the same destination.

Is there any source for this supposed quote from him?

None I could ever find. Back in the 70's devotees used all kinds of lies and gimmicks to improve book sales. Remember the vinyl LP albums with credits to Santana, Jimmy Hendrix, and other famous rockers, we used to sell back then?

The Vaishnava institutions kept silent and never commented about the regime of greedy and unscrupulous vaishyas, what does this say?

 

There're actually no real brahamans in the Vaishnava institutions.

Real brahmanas never keep silent but always preach the truth.

 

The truth is that vaishyas need control. They cannot be allowed to run their globalization regime according their own whims.

I think this was the real reason Prabhupada wanted to implement varnashrama. He saw that his movement was overrun by vaishyas who pretended to be brahmanas and kshatriyas only to profit from their position. Unfortunately it is still like that today.

Kshatriyas can not tolerate injustice and brahmanas can not tolerate falsehood. These are the real qualities of these varnas. Our movement suffered from lots of injustice and plenty of lies - proof positive that it is lacking in brahmanas and kshatriyas.

Can someone well versed in iskcon's principles tell me the scriptural basis of such a wierd practice? Which sloka tells us about a salagram having no chakra?

I am not an expert on shastra, but from a purely practical perspective even a perfect salagrama sila can be worn down over time by the strong river current and constant friction of sand and rocks into a small, round stone with almost no features.

I worship two such salagrams, of which only one has a slight trace of the cakra. Maybe they are not 'real' salagrams in the shastric sense, but for me they certainly and directly ARE Lord Vishnu.

It is not just the Chinese milk that is poisoned - many, many products in China, India, and other developing countries are adulterated with toxic chemicals and substitutes by greedy and unscrupulous vaishyas. Such people should be punished by death by real kshatriyas.

We live in a world ruled by greedy vaishyas. What do you expect? It is all right there in front of us, even in our own society.

Alas for the gamblers of America: they will tax themselves to keep the casino in operation, but it will not profit them. Where, oh where, is America's Vladimir Putin, who will drive out the oligarchs who have stolen the country's treasure and debased its currency?

 

Spot on... The same group of people that now controls America tried to take over Russia as well. But the Russians knew what they were up to and foiled their plans. Alas, Americans are much dumber and bought the con game hook, line, and sinker...

Anti-Jew, Muslim attitudes rise in Europe: survey

 

oddly(?) enough anti-American sentiments are on the rise as well.

It is very simple: people of the world just do not like crooks, terrorists, and global bullies. It is not surprising at all. Do you see anti-Swiss, anti-Danish, or anti-Norwegian attitudes? No, you don't, because these people are not implicated in acts of global thuggery and exploitation. It does not mean that all Jews, all Muslims, and all Americans are guilty of such acts, but the general tendencies can be observed and people's sentiments reflect that reality.

Nothing new of course it is the same thing the Arab media and its supporters in world media have been doing for years to drum up hate against Israel.

 

Georgia is actually using Israeli 'consultants' in orchestrating their media misinformation campaign.

All demonic people use it to further their dirty desires.

US media are pathetically biased.

Weapon making is an honorable trade, neutral.

I would say making weapons to be used by demonic people is anything but honorable. Serving demons is never honorable or neutral.

great! another way to kill people in massive numbers...

any idea when did this guy join the movement?

1.How does one properly "associate"?

2.How does one obtain that mentality to properly associate?

3.I see devotees who are so surrendered to their Guru(s). They have near no separate interest. I want that, too, but then I'm just not strong willed enough to submit myself like those devotees, although I know that I'll be happy forever if I were to do so. How do I overcome this situation of being stuck in between a rock and a hard place?

 

1. Always avoid those who are overly critical of other Vaishnavas, no matter what their arguments are - associate with nice devotees by listening and performing service.

2. Trust your instincts: if they seem fake, chances are you are right. The right mentality usually comes when you are around qualified Vaishnavas. It is natural to respect those who deserve to be respected.

3. Do not rush yourself with the surrender to guru business - read the books and study the people. You will be even more stuck if you surrender to a person you do not have full faith in.

If guns cause crime than mine are defective... Yes, it is a myth that gun control reduces crime - there is no proof of that whatsoever. People vote on such issues with their feet: those who have been victimized go and buy guns. Plain and simple. Recently in New Orleans lots of people bought guns before approaching hurricane. The smart people had them already.

Guns are like an insurance policy - you hope you will never have to use them to defend yourself, but you feel better and safer if you have them. All my kids know how to safely handle guns - I consider that part of basic education. We do not glamorize guns - I showed them what a devastating damage they can inflict (fire a .45 caliber hollow point bullet into a plastic jug full of water - the sights and sounds need very little commentary) so that they have respect for firearms.

I object to glamorization of violence as seen in the movies and games (entertainment industry) not to gun ownership. The same crowd that insists on having freedom to saturate American culture with glamorous violence insists on gun control - that is a complete paranoia!

Bhaktivedanta Avaduta Maharaj is a personal friend and Godbrother for 37 years who took sannyas off Narayana Maharaj and is such a humble caring great soul who has cleared the rot from my vision!! Remember, all of us are always evolving. As He once said "Nothing is unforgivable to the devotees of Krsna because they know forgiveness is the greatest assert of a devotee of Lord Caitanya (patita pavana).

 

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Sripad BV Avadhuta Maharaja (previously known Upananda prabhu, Srila Prabhupada's first disciple in Australia, initiated in 1970. He would get me to read Krsna Book in April 1971, when I was 16 years old, while he cooked the offering for Radha Gopinath

 

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In this world the greatest treasure is association of true Vaishnavas, because such association purifies and melts our heart, making it ready to receive Krishna's Name.

Whenever I hear Srila Prabhupada say: "All glories to the assembled devotees!" during pranams, I can feel he really, really means that - he has such deep appreciation for all Vaishnavas.

Jesucristo! ISKCON has blown $15 million so far on this?

This is the amount spent on the TVP project from roughly 1977 on. Most of it was collected and spent by Harikesa on the Vedic design he was promoting in the 90's. Serious feasibility and engineering studies were done because TVP was to be built out of special bricks. Brick making quipment was bought and pilot studies undertaken.

Still, $15 million is a LOT of money, especially considering that thus far there is nothing to display in that temple.

The following is a letter I submitted to post on Sampradaya Sun today

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Dear Parashurama Prabhu,

Dandavat pranams. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Reading you recent open letters to devotees I understand that you aspire to be a

loyal disciple of Srila Prabhupada and try to act like a lion whenever you feel

that your guru was disrespected. These are very commendable qualities in a faithful

follower. Still, serious devotees should try to observe proper Vaishnava etiquette

whenever dealing with other Vaishnavas. Srila Prabhupada himself gave us many examples

of proper Vaishnava etiquette and here is one example I consider very appropriate

in this situation. It comes from a letter Srila Prabhupada wrote to Narayana Maharaja

in 1966.

(...)"I came to know that my disciple Candrasekhara from Delhi wrote you a

letter. Candrasekhara sent me a copy of your reply to him. In that letter I came

to know that foolish Candrasekhara had blasphemed you. Fools do not know how to

honor Vaisnavas. By your greatness, please excuse him. I haven't instructed

him to do such a thing. I only told him to visit you.

Anyway, excuse his aparadha. Candrasekhara is a good man, but out of foolishness

he used bad words to you. You please forgive him and me by your good qualities."

(NY, 15.12.66)

In your very public letters you say Narayana Maharaja is a sahajiya (or that he

displays sahajiya tendencies, which is practically the same), is a liar, is blaspheming

Prabhupada, laughs at him, minimizes Prabhupada's position, criticizes Srila

Prabhupada, and creates disturbance for the devotees faithful to Srila Prabhupada.

If you are right, Narayana Maharaja is a very bad man indeed. But if you are wrong,

you are no better than Candrasekhara from the above quoted letter, who brought such

shame to Srila Prabhupada.

I imagine that Candrasekhara was also quite confident he was right in his criticism

of a superior Vaishnava. Fortunately Srila Prabhupada was there to correct his ignorance

and rectify the damage Candrasekhara has brought to himself and his guru by his

foolish behavior.

Seems to me that Srila Prabhupada had considerable respect for Narayana Maharaja

even back then in 1966. After some additional 42 years of performing uninterrupted

devotional service I would think that his position has not diminished. By all accounts

he continues to inspire thousands of his disciples and even casual observers like

myself.

There is no need for you to follow Narayana Maharaja or like what he says, but I

think you might want to consider the respect your guru had for this devotee and

start acting in a way that follows Vaishnava etiquette whenever speaking about him.

But who am I to give you advice on proper Vaishnava behavior? Nobody. Why then do

I get involved? I am not a follower of Narayana Maharaja but I think that what you

and some other ISKCON devotees are currently saying and doing brings shame and dishonor

to our guru, Srila Prabhupada, and the institution he created. Such careless criticism

of recognized Vaishnava leaders also prevents people in general from taking our

movement seriously. If we do not respect other Vaishnavas, who will?

So with all the humility in my heart I ask you to please have a more balanced view

of Narayana Maharaja and his followers, however great their transgressions might

be in your view. After all, quite a few of Srila Prabhupada's disciples were

no great saints either, and several disgraced our movement with most serious crimes.

You are a very nice devotee, who performs valuable service every day. People respect

you. Whatever example you set will be followed by many devotees. If by some chance

you are wrong in your accusations, the damage from your Vaishnava aparadha will

have implications not limited to your good self, just as it did in the case of the

foolish Candrasekhara. Is it worth taking the risk?

Srila Prabhupada was in position to criticize his Godbrothers but he repeatedly

warned his disciples not to imitate him in that regard. Apparently some of his followers

think otherwise.

Your servant

Kula-pavana dasa