Kulapavana

No, not at all. It is about the nature of Krsna's form. It is anything He wants it to be. It is Bala Krsna and Puganda Krsna, and any form that suits His pastimes.

In a sense even Brahmajyoti has a form - that of a dazzling white light.

Read it again: Pure Brahman has no form because it can take any form it likes.

That actually applies even to pure jivas - they take the form their cosnciousness wanted: a gopi, a kalpavriksa tree, a gopa. They are not bound by their form and there is no difference between them and their form.

Originally Posted by Sonic Yogi

Can you quote shastric reference to support that claim?

What verse from shastra did you get that idea from?

It is an Upanishadic idea. See here for example: http://www.astrojyoti.com/PanchaBrahmaUpanishad.htm

Originally Posted by AncientMariner

It is nice to see that you have at least made some progress on this issue.

Many thanks for your recognition.

As to returning money that supposedly belonged to Prabupada by people like H... Prabhupada placed his movement in the hands of people he personally selected and kept in power. If some of these people stole from him later, one can say that he chose his leaders poorly. When earlier these people stole for him, they were praised by 'loyal followers' like you. Did Prabhupada ever returned the money his followers obtained for him by illegal means? I do not think so.

For people like me stealing is always bad, regardless who you steal from, or who you steal for. I condemn the stealing, period. I never stole anything for Prabhupada, and I never stole anything from him. I also do not use "the property or assets of Prabhupada" in anything I do, so you can sleep well.

Originally Posted by Gadadhara dasa

My understanding of "formless", when speaking about God, is not devoid of form, but the concept of "form" being not applicable.

Higher worlds are sometimes called arupa-loka in Vedic literature, because our concept of form does not apply there. Their forms are fluid, and take shape from thought, or consciousness. Pure Brahman has no form because it can take any form it likes.

great !! finally someone from gaudiya vaishnavism has understood this . i have been trying to say this for long .!! good

thank you for your support

I understood this quite early, some 30 years ago when I was translating Prabhupada's books for the BBT. Before I joined Iskcon I had already studied some Vedic literatures, primarily in the context of yoga. Srila Prabhupada wanted to separate his own writings from those of other Indian gurus coming to the West, giving them the strongest theistic flavor possible. This is consistent with the general Gaudiya approach, where acharyas like Prabhodananda Sarasvati write that for a devotee, kaivalya is like hell (kaivalyam narakayate).

the word 'impersonal' is a total concoction.

When the Brahman is described in Vedic literature as nirvisesa it has nothing to do with personality or lack thereof. It refers to the uniformity of Brahman, or lack of visesa, or differentiations.

A true uttama-bhagavata is a real monist, actually seeing unity of all existence and all life, and the all pervasive presence of Bhagavan in everything that be.

When you sing in a perfect harmony with others in the chorus your voice merges with all the other voices and even you can not distinguish between your own singing and the chorus. Still, you do not lose your personal existence. In the chorus of Bhagavan there are many voices and may harmonies - all you need to do is pick the one you like and become part of that particular harmony.

Examples of translation: http://vedabase.net/n/nirvisesa

This of course brings up the question that if BSST attained svarupa-siddhi or siddha-deha without ever having received any eka-dasa-bhava siksha from his guru, then is that possibly the reason behind his having eliminated this "siddha-pranali" concept from Gaudiya Vaishnavism in the form of the Saraswata Gaudiya sampradaya?

 

I do not doubt that it is possible to attain siddha deha without formal siddha pranali. However, that does not make siddha pranali any less important.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta challenged many accepted Gaudiya practices, and developed his own brand of 'reformed' G.vaishnavism. Srila Prabhupada took this reformatory process even further. As long as the reforms produce good results and do not change the essential teachings and practices there is nothing wrong with this approach. Christians have done it for centuries, splintering into hundreds if not thousands of separate denominations.

going back to the main topic...

One interesting quote from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Prabhupada, letter: "Those who have achieved the perfection of being fixed in their spiritual identity (svarupa-siddhi) have attained such a realization through internal revelation and the spiritual master's only involvement in these matters is to help the further advancement of a disciple. As a practitioner progresses toward spiritual perfection, all these things are revealed naturally within the heart that sincerely seeks service."

Any idea which letter it comes from, and who translated it into English?

Abhishek, like many other rituals, are there for us so we can focus our attention on the Supreme. It is symbolic and meditative.

JAYA SHRI VISHNU

Ok sorry then if you think your right here then suit yourself.

i said it as i regarded you someone close but you do as you like.

JAI SIYA RAM

I do not think 'I am right'. This is how I see things today. It works for me and I am happy with the way it answers my questions.

Why are you after abrahamic religion.

Why are you against gaudiyas or whom are you against guadiyas or against the philosophy.I think you are not liking the words and ways of gaudiyas around you.If you ever come to india ill show you real vaishnavs.

IT is because people go to the extreme and start unnessary critisizing that problem arises.

You have no quarrel with shiv bhaktas but you certainly are quarelling with gaudiyas.

Dont mind sir but you have got stuck up in non vedik siddha pranali and tanric texts thats why you are facing problems.

You are too into iskcon gurus or gaudiya gurus.

Only iskcon are not vaishnavs get that straight.

1. abrahamic religions are the main cause of conflicts in the world and I have little sentiment for them

2. I'm not against Gaudiyas, but it does not mean Gaudiyas are always right. I consider myself an aspiring Gaudiya, and I do realize that there are many, many great Vaishnavas in India besides Gaudiyas.

3. My problems are my business, so are my gurus.

4. ISkcon members are a diverse group - some are just pretenders, but others are nice Vaishnavas - it is a mistake to lump them all into one category. How would you feel if i said that Indians are cheaters, because I ran into several Indian crooks?

If you say Shiva is God, and that he is the same as Vishnu, they why object to Shaivism? Why object to the idea that one can worship Shiva for liberation?

 

In this regard, Gaudiya Vaishnavism seems far less like pure Vaishnavism compared to previous traditions. But then again, I have also read repeated references to Shiva as "demigod" in the iskcon books, which makes the GV position on Shiva somewhat inconsistent.

I have no quarrel with Shiva bhaktas or true Advaitins. They are far closer to me than believers in the Abrahamic religions... and of course Shiva can grant liberation, as he is Muktinath.

Gaudiyas are often overly emotional and make emphatic proclamations that have little to do with vedanta. Their conflict with Shivaites and Shaktas is mostly social and practical, not siddhantic.

At the present time most astrologers are simply expert at extracting money from naive people.

As to the ishta deva: it is a simple question of: "which manifestation of God do you love the most?"

Not: "which is the highest or most impressive". Do not worry if you can't clearly make such a choice right now. Just wait until it clearly manifests in your heart.

These are just three out of many such references by Srila Prabhupada.

 

In Gaudiya Vaishnavism, Lord Siva is considered a Vaishnava not Godhead.

Since nobody can become Shiva, he is not a demigod. Sada-shiva is Godhead, Maha Vishnu, from whom individual Rudras emanate, but they are all purnam, or complete, manifestations. Shiva is not Godhead contaminated by ignorance, just like Vishnu is not Godhead contaminated by goodness.

Prabhupada considered believers in the Old Testament god to be Vaishnavas, but he was calling believers of Lord Shiva: 'demigod worshippers'. For me, that makes very little sense and does not represent the rest of Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

First you say:

"Forgive and forget is the basis of all religions. Jesus forgave the people who were crucifying him. But Krishna wanted to have revenge and ordered Arjuna to slaughter people. Isn't this a bit worrying?"

and when someone shows you some nasty quotes from the Bible you change the tone and say:

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Let the bible be intolerant. How is that relevant to the topic? If someone asks a question on Krishna, you quote bible! Does that mean you can't answer questions? If bible is evil, does that necessarily mean gita, which advocates mass murder, is all good?

Why do you use the words "mass murder" in the context of war, where all the combatants are willing and able to fight? Are you just another crusader for your own religion?

Ultimately God kills everyone. He is death personified and all destroying time. Deal with it.

Kulapavana ji,

Is siddha pranali : concieving an imaginary bhava deha in the mind and performing service to the Divine couple in smarana ????

No, there is nothing imaginary about siddha pranali.

After you spend quite some time serving a fully realized sadhu, our guru gets to know us and he reveals to us our spiritual identity. This identity has been growing in us for a very long time - when it is fully grown, a proper siddha can recognize it's form and function. When we are ready, he tells us who he is in Krsna lila, and who we are. The relationship thus formed will continue eternally - thus it is the siddha pranali guru that we have an eternal connection with. We may have several other gurus, but the relationship with them may or may not be eternal.

Really, there was a huge amount of spontaneity in Iskcon, but it started to dwindle before Prabhupada left. You'd have to at least been there by the time of the CC publishing marathon. After that, since Prabhupada could only do so much about Tamal, things began to stink.

 

And who was he explaining siddha-pranali to? A bunch of sannyasis who knew all about it? Of course not, they never even heard the term before and would 'fall right in line'. But to try to affect the minds of those who 'know all about it', that is a complete waste.

Good points.

I do not blame Srila Prabhupada for making sure Iskcon is all about orthodoxy, as he was dealing with a very unruly bunch of disciples. Then again, he was the one who kept them in power. He initially assembled a very dynamic team, who really put KC on the map. Yet later the egos and ambitions of these folks tore his movement to pieces. He had to make some very tough choices.

Unless you are educated enough in Bhagavat tattva and Radha Krishna tattva the true purpose of those writings for raganuga practice will not be attained.

I very much appreciate your thoughtful remarks.

So, the forgery that you are posting is not as authoritative as the books.

have a nice day!

So I guess you are under the illusion that these siddha-pranali sahajiyas have a better record than the Saraswata Gaudiya preaching mission?

 

As I said before, the point is that there is no need to demonize siddha-pranali and people who find value in it. Especially since the Saraswata line had (and still has) plenty of their own deviants and imitators who grossly abused their hallmark preaching program.

Anything can be abused. I do not defend the sahajiyas who use siddha pranali as their way to exploit people, just like I do not defend crooks who collect money using deceit in the name of 'preaching', or homosexual pseudo-sannyasis flying all over the world in the name of 'preaching'.

This time the reputation of Gaudiya Vaishnavism has been ruined not by sahajiyas, but by the abuses in the preaching mission. That has to be recognized. Saraswatas today are expert at blaming everybody else and demand full immunity from their own sins, because 'they had good intentions and wanted to preach'. It simply does not work that way.

The acharya will prescribe the appropriate books for the disciple to study.

 

Only in Iskcon devotees are afraid to read books of great Vaishnavas other than their guru, because of a personality cult they invented in the sixties. This self censorship policy helps them maintain their illusions and control the new members. But their own guru said this:

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, I remember once I heard a tape where you told us that we should not try to read the books of previous acaryas.

Srila Prabhupada: Hmm?

Devotee: That we should not try to read Bhaktivinoda's books or earlier books of other, all acaryas. So I was just wondering...

Srila Prabhupada: I never said that.

Devotee: You didn't say that? Oh.

Srila Prabhupada: How is that?

Devotee: I thought you said that we should not read the previous acaryas' books.

Srila Prabhupada: No, you should read.

Devotee: We should.

Srila Prabhupada: It is misunderstanding.

Srila Prabhupada Morning Walk, May 13, 1975, <?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = ST1 /><ST1:CITY w:st="on">Perth</ST1:CITY>, <ST1:COUNTRY-REGION w:st="on">Australia</ST1:COUNTRY-REGION>

Krishna is not impressed with our siddha-pranali meditation that is practiced in neglect of the missionary work that the acharyas come to do.

Of course collecting money by hook or crook to build great temples with great vyasasanas is more important than developing our love for Krsna and a desire to serve Him in His lila... and after the great acharya passes on, his disciples happily fight over the inheritance money and positions... this approach is soooooooooooooooo much superior than aspiring to enter Krsna lila by practicing siddha pranali.

None of those quotes supports the imitation siddha-pranali process of imaginative siddha-deha.

 

And who is talking about that?

Why am I not surprised that you are unable to admit to being wrong?

Bhaktivinoda is clearly delineating a siddha pranali process as it was always practiced, and as he was initiated into by Bipin Bihari.

Bhaktivinoda knew the spiritual identity of his guru, Bipin Bihari, because BB revealed it to him. In his poetry, Bhaktivinoda refers to his guru as Vilasa Manjari.

The two texts from his Giti-mala are particularly interesting, as they indicate the siddha name of Bipin Bihari, which is Vilasa Manjari.

In both of these songs, Bhaktivinoda follows the classical tradition established by Narottam Das of praying to his spiritual master in his siddha form as a Manjari. It is thus clear that Bhaktivinoda had not only taken initiation, but had also received siddha-pranali from his guru.

Can you quote one as saying that?

 

I didn't think so.

I take no pleasure in proving you wrong.

While I admire your faith in Srila Prabhupada, my admiration for the truth is much stronger.

Hopefuly we will walk away from those exchanges more inspired to learn about Krsna and our very rich tradition, as well as more inspired to be humble and filled with service attitude.

Bhaktivinoda's Caitanya Siksamritam, 6.5 (p. 237-238):

- - - -

"If anybody possesses greed for the path of raganuga, he will pray to his good religious preceptor, who, after examining his relish, will determine the type of bhajana suited to him and give him acquaintance of his siddha-deha. According to this acquaintance, the aspirant or the person in the ascending stage of prema will live in the company of guru, and getting all acquaintance from him, will practice bhajana daily with utmost care and eagerness, situated in his own position.

Remembering his transcendental nama, rupa etc. bestowed by the guru again and again, he will possess identification for the same. This identification is the knowledge of his true self and is called svarupa siddhi. Qualities and lila which have been cited before is blossomed in this place.

The significance of this type of sadhana is to enter into the transcendental lila of Sri Radha Krishna and remembering Their eternal name, beauty and quality by application of the aspirant's relationship with Them in consonance with his own name and form, bestowed by Sri Guru."