sambya

Tantrics consider lkali to be supreme and puranic consider devi lalita (i dont know name) to be supreme.

not exactly . the tantrics of kalikula sampradaya(based in eastern india) consider kali as supreme . the tantrics of srikula sampradaya(based in southern india) consider sri-vidya(sodashi , lalita , tripurasundari) as supreme .

I think too, if the Lord didn't want his rath taken out at other times he wouldn't allow it. He is most mercyfull though especially to those of us who may never make it to Puri Rathayatra and who will never step foot in the Puri temple. If it was wrong I don't think it would be successful around the world ike it is.

that is another way of looking at things and a good one-lord wouldnt have allowed that to happen if he didnt want it . its sad that there are people who are not allowed in the temple . but with the rising levels of liberalism and decresing influence of priests in india , i think the day is not far off when this practice is voluntarily stopped or forced to stop by the government .

now all that is left to do is to pray that this happens in our lifetimes !!

The rathayatra has become famous all over the world, thanks to the work of the infallible spiritual master His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

true . the credit for this goes to him alone .

but i was thinking whether it is right to conduct rathayatra all year round .

seeing the discussion whether ramacharita manas is an accepted text or not , i was thinking what are the determining factors for validity of any text ?

is it merely its age . the older the text the more infallible it is ?

does the spiritual status of the person who wrote it never taken into consideration ? but then again how to determine this status ?

just thinking..........!!

dont get upset by what others say . as respected JND has already pointed out , such differences are there all over the world . i think they are in the psychology of mankind itself . even sannyasis after quitting everything tend to develope superiority complex that brings about their ruin ! in ancient days non hindu people often did not conform to hindu standards of cleanliness and dietary requirements and hence veiwed as unclean . such restrictions into entering a temple specially cropped up in the muslim era when hindu temples were being destroyed by hundreads . it might have been a preventive measure to gaurd the temples from unwanted extruders . and most preists of the temples are not very spiritual nor very generous human beings .

you can certainly carry on with your practice . just cling on to maa(durga) or whoever suits you . practise never to forget her even for a while . i dont think naamkarana is that imporatant though . what is important however is maintaining a steady touch with someone who is in a better spiritual position than you . this is called sadhu sanga and it is extremely important to help you stick to the chosen path in modern world of material actrractions(specially in west !! ) . positively attach youself to a distinct philosophy and to some genuine persons who can help to guide you !! most importantly dont hurry and take your time .

in time , you can go for such a thing as namakarana that might give you a feeling of satisfaction . all the best .

never ever leave god ......leaving him is death .

Originally Posted by ranjeetmore: WHY IS IT SO HARD TO ACCEPT THAT TAMASIC PEOPLE ARE ATTRACTED TO UMA MAHESVARA ??

The forms of Uma and Mahesvara are many times horrendous...even revolting...but it IS NECESSARY for all the goblins and ghosts...These are forms of God Himself- Sri KRsna.Tulsidasa and the earlier Gaudiyas BELIEVED SO.

 

god !!! you are the worst human being in this forum ranjeet . you dont have the minimum courtsey to show atleast outward respect to other people's ishtas .

is this what your guru taught you ???????? i mean uma maheswar is the revolting form of god and all people worshiping them are undoubtedly tamasic ? if not then by what authority are you making this claim ??

Despite the fact that you are spewing anti-Brahmin hate speech, i actually feel sorry for you. It is obvious that you have bought into the Marxist class-conflict paradigm and cannot help but see Hinduism through this lens. Small wonder then that you want a religion without brahmins which makes you feel empowered and obviates the need to accept any authority.

 

Obviously, blaming brahmins for all the problems of the world is yet another way by which Neo-Hinduism is rationalized.

see the last line ?

" oh sir , would you believe what i saw ........ a beautiful white COW !! "

i think the universal peace and love is a utopian concept that has never happened and nor will it happen in future .

some short periods might be a bit more peaceful than the rest.... that is all .

world at large would remain unpeaceful and full of hatred . only those individuals who are seeking for love and peace would get it . they alone can be blissfull even while sitting in this material world .

ha ha , i knew that you would eventually come to the same point - neo hinduism .

there was this little boy who was obssesed with cows( the herbivourous animal) . whenever his teachers gave him any work to do he would relate it to cows . on maths paper he used to draw a cow , on english sheets he used to write about cow and so on . finally the sir decided to give him an essay which would be of such a different topic that he couldnt possibly come back to cows . so the teacher decided an elocution speech on aeroplane . the child started his speech -- "aeroplanes are wonder to mankind .....wright brothers invented it..........it flies high up in the sky ............once i was travelling with my family in a plane . ........ the food was good ......... airhostesses were pretty ...........then the plane preparing to land ..........i could see the silvery river and green earth below ...............there were small huts dotted along ..........there were lots of big trees .........and then oh sir , would you believe what i saw ? there was a beautifull white COW !!

that is your condition now .... ha ha

you dislike anything that has been added new to hinduism . it is for the same reason that you disrespect gaudiya vaishnavism and deride chaitanya . it is also for the same reason that you do not want to accept almost any other modern gurus and scholars . but at the same time you have failed to show me what is your definition of classical hinduism and its period in history . and what you are doing here in this forum is not mere disagreement( i wouldnt have had any problems with that) , but constant attacks and sarcasms towards virtually every sect and even of personal nature .

What important questions, Sambya? There is about as much intelligent content in your postings as there is in a doorknob.

see the sarcasms and personal attacks here ?

anyways , since you are the most intelligent among all here and i am totally ignorant , it is your duty to dissipate my ignorance with your shining intelligence by anwering the humble questions that i had asked long ago .

You're upset because you are a neo-Hindu and you cannot tolerate anyone pointing out the endless differences between Neo-Hinduism and traditional Hinduism. But they are different. Neo-Hinduism is the product of Westernized thinkers with a penchant for secularism and atheism

not at all . i am a proud neo-hindu . i love what i follow and i know what exactly i follow . whatever opinion you hold about neo-hinduism is your own and i respect it as freedom of thought .

but for gods sake dont drag in the same thing every time you are cornered and try to escape with such silly topics and excuses as neo hinduism is atheistic etc . i know what your veiws on neo-hinduism are and you need not drag in the issue once more . if you have words for continuing the discussion do that without forcing in this topic , because we all know that the moment this thing comes in other discussions will stop .

i hope you will take someone else's(me) opinion about you into consideration even if it is for a moment and plan your next posts accordingly ....

I'm reading, wondering where we kill the goat. Then in the last paragraph, there it is.

initially i had in my mind just to write about the glories of rathayaytra . but then as i wrote i remembered that this is a forum for discussion and there should be an element of discussion in the topic .

now personally i differ from those who hold the opinion that rathayatra can be held all year round , because it is a ashada festival as per scriptures and every festival has its time . at the same time i must say the many of those devotees have wonderful exemplary love towards jagannath deva that many indians often dont have !! and strictly speaking it is not a wrong or sin to take out jagannathdeva at some other time . i know that it is done out of more practical reasons in foreign soil . even sanskrit verses say "yasmin deshe yadaachaar " -- the rituals differ in different nations . so it cannot be held as wrong or sinfull .

but it does amount a direct deviation from the scriptures and customs .

i was just wondering what other vaishnavas and non vaishnava people think of this !! it was just to promote a healthy discussion to have a greater understanding of other peoples perspectives .

i have attended rathayatras of the particular institution personally and the ambience is highly spiritual and of love !! i cannot overlook or criticise that !!

Here are the translations of Avidhi

abnormal, anomalous,perverted,anomaly,aberration.

 

May be you can provide a better translation with reference.

 

http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?script=HK&tinput=avidhi&country_ID=&trans=Translate&direction=AU

anomalous = deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected : irregular, unusual

perverted = abnormal, unnatural - not normal; not typical or usual or regular or conforming to a norm

aberration = the fact or an instance of being aberrant especially from a moral standard or normal state

this is what i just said , "out of norms" or "out of way " ........

they are still not the same as wrong ....

In the month of ashada Jagannath dev steps out of his royal palace onto the streets of Puri in what is known as the chariot festival of puri -- rathayatra .

The collection of wood for these rathas start on the auspicious day of vasanta panchami on the month of magha . The woods are brought from ranapur forest in the dashapaallaa district of orissa . Then on the day of akhshaya tritiya in the month of vaishakha the construction of these rathas begin . They are completed on the day of jagannath netrotsav or the day on which the eyes of jagannath are repainted after sananayatra . The three rathas are constructed by a particular class of men who aqquires this right from their forefathers .

JAGANNATH RATHA

The name of the ratha of jagannatha is nandighosh . It stands tall at the height of 45 foot . 832 peices of wood go into its construction . The dwhaja or flag at its top is named trailakyamohini . The ratha has chakra or garuda deva at its top thereby gaining its name chakradhwaja or garudadhwaja . The two dwarpala or door gaurds of this ratha are brahmaa and indra . The other presiding deities for this ratha are varaha , govardhan , gopikrishna , nrisimha , rama , naarayan , trivikrama , hanuman and rudra . This ratha has 16 wheels representing the shodasha-kala or 16 artforms . Each wheel is 7 foot in diameter . The ratha is coloured red and yellow . The protector of this ratha is sri nrisimha natha . The sarathi or charioteer is named matali . The four horses are named samkha , valaataka , sweta and haridrakhsha and are white in colour . Apart form the surrounding dieties there are some rishis in this ratha . They are narada , devala , vyasadeva , sukadeva , parashara , vashishta , vishwamitra and maarichi . The rope that is used to pull this chariot is called samkhachuda and the kalasa or pitcher below the topmost flag is named hiranmay .

BALARAM RATHA

The name of this ratha is taaladhwaja or haladwaja and is 47 foot high. It is constructed from 763 pieces of wood . The colour of this ratha is red and green . The flag is named unamini and there are two parakeets beside the kalasha named swadha and vishwasa . The surrounding deities in this ratha are ganesha , kartika , sarvamangala , pralamva , halayudha , mrityunjay , naateswar , maheshwar and sheshadeva . Each wheel is 6 foot in diameter and there is 14 wheels in total symbolising chaturdasha bhuvan or fourteen worlds . The protector of this ratha is sri sheshaavatar . The sarathi is named daaruk and there are four black horses by the name of tivra , ghora , srama , dirgha .

.

SUBHADRA RATHA

The ratha of devi subhadara is called devidalan , deviratha or padmadhwaja . It is 43 foot high and each wheel is 6 foot in diameter . This ratha needs 593 peices of wood fro her construction . The flag of this ratha is caled naadamvik . The two birds beside the flag are called sruti and smriti . The colour of the ratha is red and black . The surrounding deites are chandi , chamunda , ugratara , vanadurga , shulidurga , shyamaakaali , mangala , vaarahi and vimala . They are accompanied by their respective bhairavas . There are four wheels of this ratha which symbolises the twelve months . The protector of this ratha is sri vanadurga . the sarathi is arjuna . The four horses are black in colour and are named rachika , mochika , jita and aparaajitaa . Subhadra's ratha carries the sudarshana .

Each of these rathas are divided into 38 sections . Starting from the base towards the top they are named as follows :

chaakaa

dandiya

aaraa

veki

hamsapat

kaani

samkhadwara

jali

gaipat

simhasana

rushipata etc

The dieties are slowly brought to the ratha in their characteristic slow motion which is locally called pahandi vijaya . The term originates from the sanskrit word padahundan meaning slow small steps . The responsibility of bringing the dieties to their respective rathas is entrusted to a particular class of non brahmin men called dayita-pati . They are local people of tribal caste and vishwavasu clan .

In ancient days the king used to appoint a special class of labourers to pull the rathas . They were named kallabathiya and were donated with tax free lands to meet with their living expenses in return of their service at the temple once a year . The records of 1848 shows that 4200 of such men were employed in pulling these rathas . However with a gradual increase in number of pilgrims , with the increase in transport facilities their requirements gradually decreased .

The rathayatra commences only after the king of puri performs his service to bhagavan in form of sweeping the ratha with scented water and flower petals , which is called chheraa pahraa .

When the ratha arrives at balagandi which is midway to the final destination the rathas stop for his rest . The deities are bathed in mirror reflection with panchamrita and scented water . Then the sevaks apply perfumed oils and sandal paste to help him cool off . Next he is offered various cooling drinks and fruits such as coconut , dates and sweets . This is called balgandi bhoga .

After this the rathas are finally drawn to their destination of gundicha mandir .

NAVAKALEVARA

Every 12 years jagannath deva changes his form which is know as navakalevara . This takes place usually after every twelve years but more specifically in the month of ashada with two purnimaas . The last navakalebara was in 1996 .

In the begining the brahmins visit the mangala devi temple in kaakatpura . After worshipping her duely and asking for her blessings the dayitapatis , royal purohit and learned brahmanas set off to find out the suitable tree .

It must be a neem or margosa tree and it must have certain auspicious signs on it . The tree of jagannath deva should be slightly dark in colour , the one of balarama should be slightly whitish and of subhadra it should be reddish . The trees must have the auspicious signs of samkha chakraa gada and padma . They must have three , five or seven branches and must not have nest of birds on it . The leaves must not be exccessively bitter but should have a pleasant taste . They must be situated at the confluence of three roads or on the banks of a river . After finding out the suitable trees a yagna is performed for three days at its base . Then the tree is first struck with a gold axe followed by a silver axe and finally by a iron axe . The leaves are then stripped off and buried in a trench . Then the logs are covered with clothes and decorated with flower garlands and finally brought to the temple of devi mangala . The bullock carts used to transport the logs must be newly constructed from banyan or bilwa wood and must have four wheels . From the mangala temple they are brought to the temple at puri and the local villagers often pull the carts themselves to their destination.

In this way the puri rathaytra is carried on every year with ever increasing devotion and participation . Jagannath deva jayatu !!

One last point of thought -- In modern years rathaytra has been taking place virually all round the year in defiance of traditional scritpures . The reason forwarded is mainly relating to the loving bond between god and devotee . But do you think that such a deviation is justified by saying that the devotees are worshipping their loved ishta ? By that logic one can easily perform dola yatra or jhulan or chandan yatra anytime of the year !!

Is this right and justified ????

Samyba,

 

First of all, you should know better than to try and have an intelligent conversation with Theist. Just as he should know better than to try and have an intelligent conversation with you. Or maybe both of you really do not know, which is precisely the problem here.

 

why do you persistently hold the opinion that it is only you who knows, barring anyone else , whether it be a hare krishna or neo hindu ?!!

this is a excellent example of egoism !!

you dont like iskcon , you dont like swaminarayan , ramakrishna , any of the modern hindu movements . in other words you bash up everyone holding different opinions and live in your own little well .

and when i ask you some important questions you remain silent thereby showing your complete and willfull ignorance about the matter !!

You can translate avidhi-pUrvakam however you want, "in a wrong way,without proper knowledge,out of the common way." But the sense is very clear. Bhagavad-gita clearly distinguishes between Krishna worship and anya-devata worship, and there is simply no way of getting around that.

i never denied that .........bhagavad gita clearly places krishna at the top . i just showed them the incorrect interpretation of the word ...a-vidhi .

ye 'py anya-devatā-bhaktā

yajante śraddhayānvitāḥ

te 'pi mām eva kaunteya

yajanty avidhi-pūrvakam

SYNONYMS

ye — those who; api — also; anya — of other; devatā — gods; bhaktāḥ — devotees; yajante — worship; śraddhayā anvitāḥ — with faith; te — they; api — also; mām — Me; eva — only; kaunteya — O son of Kuntī; yajanti — they worship; avidhi-pūrvakam — in a wrong way.

well , when viewed independently vidhi can be interpreted as rule , dictum , manner , method , usage or way .

a-vidhi-purvaka would mean "out of the common way" or "out of norms" . they do not mean "wrong" in strict sense !

and krishna is clearly saying that those who worship devas with faith also worship him which is out of norms . now , its but obvious that if someone does not worship krishna directly and worship him indirectly it shall be "out of norms" .

here krishna is definately placed in the highest position but other forms of worship are not termed as wrong !

most importantly if krishna saw something absolutely wrong in deva worship he would have directly said -- those who worship devas are wrong . he would'nt have started by saying that they also eventually worship him and he would have used the specific word of wrong such as mithya , paap , doshpurna etc .

without the use of such a word i see no reason why the words 'a-vidhi' are to be interpreted as 'wrong' !!!!

Krishna speaks in the gita that those who worship the demi-gods are really worshipping Him in a wrong way as ultimately He is the only grantor of boons.

 

wrong way ? show me where was the word used !!

In fact Bhaktivinoda Thakur wrote a commentary on it.

did he ?

can you give me some links to the same ? please ??!! i mean the original commentary .

also , i was wondering that if this upanishad has been written thousands of years ago , almost all brahmins and vaishnavas must have known about it . they also must have been waiting for the messiah to appear in nabadwipa ?!! then why did it take so long for even his close associates like sarvabhauma to understand him ? and why the other vaishnva groups do not accept hid avataarhood ?!

can you please provide adress of this 'chaitanya press' in calcutta who first published this upanishad so that i can check out their office and see if they have copy or two still existing ?

and if the text actually exists from vedic times then it must be well read and other publishing agencies must as well be publishing it . if however it is not available anywhere apart from the hare krishna well ( kupa manduka , the frog in the well) , then of course no one is left with a choice other than accepting that it is a accomplished lie and outright forgery , too shamefull to be committed by some spiritual person !!

This is the funniest post and i cant stop my self laughing. In India there are more dirt than anywhere else. Corruption, Poverty, Child Labor, No.1 in AIDS, Unhealthy food as a result of lethal capitalism, unemployment, starvation of the good, harm to women,lack of good drinking water, Priests indulged in wrong things, workers given low wages, Good food only for the rich- this don't happen in the western world,caste discrimination and the list goes on.............................

 

This is what should be respected and admirable?

im not defending anyone but being indian myself i know that such a statement is largely ( if not totally ) untrue and is resulting out of improper analyzation .

its not true that In India there are more dirt than anywhere else. all nations have had their pros and cons and will continue to do so . india after years of exploitation and sufferings have accumulated a lot of problems , but that doesnt make them the dirtiest nation !!

most problems are directly related to poverty . and harm to women and priest indulging in wrong things has far greater occurance in west than in india !!

the casteism that you are speaking about is also there in west . in fact it is within the mental setup of mankind . here we discriminate on caste and back in western nations you discriminate between colour and race . the same psychology finding expression in different modes through certain nasty individuals !!

im not trying to show that west is all bad ............just showing you the faults and inadequacy in your biased statement

Leave him alone Sambya,we had inuf from him in forum as well as in our inbox.You cannot change destiny.Let him prove his points by wasting his precious time which he could have spent worshiping God.Last night he was having 760 posts and today it is at 820 with the help of his jet engines you just cannot beat this superman!

average 10 posts per day ??!!!!???

phew ! how knowledgable you are sant !!

Hare Krishna. Please accept my obeisances. All glories to Guru and Gauranga. You are certainly very senior to me both by birth and also by education. You seem to know so much about everything. I tried hard not to reply to your post but I felt I had to. I do not think ISKCON is a failure at all. I know its one of the most successful societies ever made. Perhaps you are so far ahead in spiritual life that you can't appreciate the little things ISKCON centers around the world help with for some beginners like myself. I am sure you have valid reasons for your conclusions. It would be nicer if you shared them with people in private because this forum is open to the general public. Certainly every fruit bearing tree has some rotten fruits but I would not go as far to chop down the entire tree. Perhaps it is for selfish reasons I ask you not to post such negative thoughts about ISKCON. I am here to learn and grow in spiritual life and the aim of this forum seems to be just for that reason. I do not think such negative comments will encourage us to talk open heartedly and teach us to love one another as spiritual brothers and sisters rather than Indian and American. Please accept my humble obeisances and forgive me if I made any mistakes in my assumption.

obeisances to you too ...

i dont think im senior to you . im stilll a student and getting educated ! in my final years though....

i see from your post that you are new to the forum !! i would advise you to hang on and extensively read through the old threads to have a better idea of why me and others are up in arms against iskcon . done that , you would perhaps concentrate more on doing something with such characters who are doing much to defame iskcon than requesting me............

i can appreciate the positive sides of iskcon and the work it has done in the last century to spread indian culture to the western lands . but no sane person with minimal self esteem would tolerate continuous hate posts and derogation of other thoughts( even hinduism ) , based on incorrect interpretations of many slokas and wrong teachings !!

if iskcon devotees had kept silent and allowed others to live in peace such questions would not have arisen at all !! please refer to the thread " shiva maha purana doubts" and check out what a gaudiya vaishnava administrator of this forum has to say in this regard . love others and you will also be loved-- simple logic which many iskconites fail to understand .

by the way i like your approach ......perhaps you could stay aroung the forum and provide a better picture of gaudiya philosophy than what others do .....

sorry if i have offended you . pranaam

Vaishnavas of course, we all know, are narrow-minded because they believe based on evidence that Vishnu is the supreme Deity.

so what about the evidences of tantra proclaiming kali as highest or shaiva scriptures projecting shiva as highest . do they amount to 'evidence' as well ? what is the method of determining this status ?

In fact, I have personally observed that when a Vaishnava does speak up to set the record straight about what Vaishnavism is, the Neo-Hindus will shout him down, call him a fanatic, etc. It does not matter that they have never read Bhagavad-Gita or any other scripture that they claim to venerate. They just know that the Vaishnava is a narrow-minded fundamentalist. And that he is wrong.

this i would say is a prime example of bad behaviour on the part of those advaitins !!

Swami Vivekananda was every bit as sectarian as those he criticized. Claiming that religious conflict in the world is due to Dvaita is sheer ignorance. When Dvaita as a tradition has been localized to Indian subcontinent until recently, there is no possibility of Dvaita causing the problems he mentioned.

i respect your difference in opinion because you have at least read something before forming a opinion , unlike many others here .

but there's a little mistake in what you say ............. dvaita thought was very much present in christian and islamic philosophies . infact this nirguna concept is unique to soil of india .

and as i said before , and which you falied to take notice of , he did not blame dvaita as a branch of study . he pointed out the tendency of humans to take up dvaita thought and misuse it .

and you could perhaps give me some examples where he showed sectarian hatred , for my better understanding .

His attempt to use "Dvaita" as a term to describe other non-Advaitic religions is just a sneaky attempt to promote Advaita and denounce theism in general.

thats your personal opinion ............... but how does promoting advaita(which he did ) amount to denouncing theism ???

sant , you are free to show a sloka from any standard advaitist scripture stating that the goal is to become god or that the practice is to proclaim yourself as god ......

In the western world, people just laugh at Advaitism.

I ( and most indians like me ) would laugh at people at you who try to pose iskcon as something totally transcendental to material nature and yet a new scandal surfaces every fortnight !! has anything been a greater failure than iskcon in history of religious movements ( im not speaking of numerous now-extinct tribal cults ) ?!!

and probably you are not aqquainted with modern theories of physics( not suprising with the americans though ) which is increasingly proving the creation to be similar as envisioned by advaita and such other philosophies !

read books like 'tao of physics' for a little better education .........

This is saadhana and not saadhanaa.'Saadhana' means- a means to do something.

even if it is sadhana and lacks an extra 'A' and you manage to prove it to all , what benefit would that be to you ? i see no material , pecuniary , spiritual , or any other benefit arising from this act !!! except that it would boldly show to the members here , how learned and pandit you are !!

and that status of being a pandit would directly promote your ego and bring about a downfall to your spiritual progress !!

Is it possible that in fact the story of Jesus is a myth fabricated in Greek language by Hellenistic Jews looking for a marriage of the Jewish and the Greek traditions?

might be , just like some hindus claiming rama or krishna is myth !!

Since you read and recite the vedas you yourself tell me where word साधना is

since you are the one who is disbelieving the burden of proof is on you ....................................no one is under obligation to ' tell ' you anything !!