sambya

 

It in the same line as the stealing money from the "karmis" on "sankirtana" is okay but the victim gets some ajnana-sukriti. never mind this mode of ignorance practice succeeded in turning off the western countries to Krishna consciousness and left Iskcon with the reputation of being a cheating religious cult.

 

A better example would be the stealing of flowers from others property and offering them to Krishna in the name of "It's really Krishna's property and the ownersa get punya from it". I was in Hawai when this uproar came from the neighbors of the krishna temple who were tired of having devotees picking flowers out of their yards in the middle of the night. Prabhupada told the devotees to stop stealing flowers and fruit in a letter that got read during morning prasad and then immediately ignored.

 

 

 

 

well , the scriptures specifically mention the list of flowers that cannot be offered to the lord and flowers stolen from other's garden are considered un-offerable .

 

all scriptures that we find advocates dharma above the rest . vigraha seva also is kept subordinate to the principles of dharma . for it is this dharma thats the central force of mankind . with adhaarmic practises nothing can be of any good . the same goes for lying in name of krishna or for spreading 'krishna consciousness' . a lie remains a lie and subject to karmic laws which injure your spiritual progress . there's no other way round .............and hiding under the banner of krishna is a reputed escape tactics !

 

MILKMEN

Also, is it not true that cow slaughter is illegal in most states except for Kerala and West Bengal - or one of those eastern states ?

 

So why can the law be passed in other states and not here ? Is it due to a large non-Hindu population of meat consumers ?

 

umm.....im not quite sure but i think it is banned in some states not all . specially the northern states are quite strict about it .

 

in bengal however religion takes a back seat and secular ideas reign . for example if you would go to the northern states you shall find most people very religious .............they might not be spiritual but they practise religion wholeheartedly . but in bengal it is either spiritual people or secular people . an average bengali is not religious and places secular values at a higher place than religious values . so any attempt by the government to stop cow slughter would be treated as a restriction to freedom of an individual(muslims in this case) and hence be frowned upon by most bengalis . and recent communist rule in these two states have also injured hindu values . i remeber westbengal chief minister(he is the grandson of one of the most famous brahmins in 20th century bengal) commenting , " whats the use of learning sanskrit ? are we set to turn our kids into temple priests tingling bells all the time ?! " . now this is shocking ! sanskrit might not be in practical use today but its value as a mother language and scope of research activities are immense . at least he could have recognised that !!

 

this is the condition of bengal !

 

 

There are plenty of leafy greens, whole grains, sprouted legumes , beans ,lentils , nuts, seeds , especially in the Indian diet, that make things like masoor dal a drop in the ocean .

 

but where to get the protiens from ? soya , milk products and masoor dal are already excluded .

 

Hare Krishna.

It is indeed so sad to see mother cows being mistreated so much. It is even sadder to think that we are supporting such industry.

 

I am sure you have all heard of this argument..what about when you buy milk and offer it to Krishna. Are the cows not getting some punya by having their milk offered to the Lord?

 

 

that's not proper logic ......

 

once i read somewhere that the leather that mahatma gandhi used for his sandals were from cows that have died naturally . when i said it to an educated saffron devotee of certain gaudiya sampradaya he said "thats not very good of him..........to wear the skin of gomata in his feet . "

 

the instant thought that came to my mind was " what about mridangas then , are'nt they made of cow skins too .................and probably ones that have not died naturally ! are'nt we playing and beating on our dead mothers skin ? "

 

but then the popular escape route would be " its utlised for the service of krishna " ..............but i kept shut because he was a nice man and saffron sadhu !

 

.........................aagh !! ..........................using the same logic whats the harm in sacrifing a goat before kali ?............... it gives the goat tremendous 'punya' !!

 

and logic should be universally applicable ....

 

 

 

 

 

actually this difference between causing violance to an animal and and perfect non-violance is is very narrow . i think refraining from conscious harm to any living animal and practising vegetarianism is enough for a spiritual aspirant . anymore analysis and interpretation only adds to the worrys !

that reminds me of the horrifying ways that a cow is presently treated in most villages of bengal . a few decades back a hindu was bound to keep a cow till her natural death either due to his own moral restrains or social fear . but now , with rapid growth of western ideals there is break down of traditional indian social structure where entire community lived as a greater family , and a growth of small selfish nuclear homes where social pressures and responsibility are not much . hence many poor hindu farmers who cant afford to maintain the animal once its productivity decreases and it grows old , finds it convineint and easy to sell it off to some other person ! now these persons are generally muslim butchers who have no other business with an old cow other than its flesh !! and those poor farmers think their hands are washed clean of all sins after this sale little realising that karmic laws are quite complex !

 

this is quite sad .

 

 

 

but reffering back to the topic of milk i think theist's idea has pratical problems . for example where to get such 'natural' milk in modern world ?

 

in india there are innumerable milkmen who go door to door selling milk procured from their personal home bred animals . many families buy such milk and that is the milk used for puja as packeted pastuerised milk is considered unclean . but there are more problems here ..............in order to make the milk white they add colouring agents , in order to make it foam they are detergent , in order to prevent it from getting damaged quickly they even add formalene !!! this is a greater problem in cities .

 

so where to get pure milk ? and without milk and its products , masoor etc who long can a man live ?

 

sambya :

Are you STUPID or something?

 

I asked you about something good which came from the West and all you can come out with is this stupidity about Sattee and how the British (allegedly) abolish it. I said allegedly because the ONLY time I have ever come across this practise was when reading the book - "Around the World in 80 days" which makes me wonder whether the practise was genuine or just to fool Indians like yourself. This is of course with assumption that you are an Indian.

 

And as far as I considered, this idiocy with the so-called Sattee practise (which is doubtful if it even existed) is NOT PROOF or anything. It merely shows that you are stuck and the West have not brought ANYTHING good to India.

 

 

now im starting to have a better picture of you ..................

 

sati very much existed in india . i know it and i have read a lot about it -accounts of brahmins , contemporary noblemen ,maharajas , european priests , orthodox hindus , leberal reformists all have writen and commented about sati . unlike you i dont speak of things i have no knowledge of . if you doubt i shall provide you with scriptural qoutes . if you doubt further i can easily show you the historical records with date, time, place, year, and names of the victim along with her son's name , husband's name, circumstances of husbands death . but since many of such books are in vernacular languages and probably not on internet i regret that you would not be able to verify it ...

 

around the world in eighty days gives an highly inaccurate and deformed picture of sati . it was a amalgamation of thugee , human sacrifice and sati and resulted out of racial stereotypes as envisioned by britishers of those times . historical sati was somewhat different but not less fearfull .

 

im astonished to see your confidence levels with such a chronic lack of knowledge !!

 

show me how abolishing sati was not a boon from the west .

 

 

 

What is the difference between saying Science is a tool to promote the beliefs in God and by saying that Science must verify God? I do not see a difference here.

 

As a Tool to promote the belief in God, Science must have a certain level of "proof" of God. Therefore, using this proof (of Science), educated people should then accept God through Science.

 

 

if you cannot distinguish between "Science is a tool to promote the beliefs in God" and "Science must verify God" , im sorry but i cannot carry on any intelligent discussion with you

 

 

Thank you. I shall take that as a compliment.

good .that gives me a clearer picture !

 

 

 

Are you not?

im a firm believer in god and hinduism !

 

sambya :

YES, I will disagree with that as long as you failed to provide a single example of something good which came from the West.

 

immidiately i can think of abolishment of sati which was effected by combined efforts of raja rammohun roy and lord william bentinck .even raja on his part was highly influenced by western ideals which prompted him to study hindu scriptures and fight for this cause ..

 

there are countless others..........

 

and now that i have provided with one example you must prove that one wrong before you speak on anything else .....and if you cannot then your theory automatically stands disproved by you own words(I will disagree with that as long as you failed to provide a single example) !!

 

 

 

In basic language, Science can be used as a tool to teach youngsters about God in His basic form and understand. As they grow older and more mature, we can introduce them to a more complex ideas of God and allow them to slowly mature along with that knowledge. In that way, Science becomes a Tool to understand God.

 

if you would have said that you want to use science as a tool to promote beliefe in god then it would have been a novel and a nice concept . but you said that you would only accept that much of god as can be verified by sceince .............that is my point of objection ..

 

 

 

There is nothing wrong with my knowledge or understanding. It is your foolish Atheist beliefs and attitude which made you stuck.

 

of course there is and its obvious that you would not understand it ....no one does (understands his own faults) . for if it was other way round how could you labell someone as athiest for not believing in same ideology .

 

you are hardly any different from those dumb hare krishnas (not all) .

 

why do i turn athiest ?

 

sambya :

He who speaks in behalf of a drunkard are equally at fault as the drunkard themselves. Even those who wish to give up drinking will be spoilt by people like you who defend their drinking attitudes.

 

what might be my motive behind defending a drunkard ......i certainly did not defend anyone !!

 

acknowledging that alcohol was widely used in vedic times and encouranging to drink is not the same .

 

anyways you have still not shown me evidence to the contrary .....im waiting.

 

 

 

You said you spoke of Bodhivatta and understood the word but you do not know what it is. Then what is the use of knowing the word but not the meaning? Isn't that stupid? Yet, you have guts to come to me and say I'm confused.

once again.....i spoke of bodhittva , not bodhivatta ..............get it corrected !!

 

 

 

 

You cannot say NEVER and then use words like "couldn't be sure" together, can you? It shows that you do not know what comes out of your mouth and have poor control of your Mind.

 

now prove it if you can !! find me a text(only one wouldnt do) where i quoted wiki .....do it and then shout as much as you can ..

 

sambya :

 

Then give me an example of something which actually good came out of the West.

 

its simple logic that nothing can be absolute in this world . nothing can e absolutely bad or absolutely good ..........you disagree on that ?!!

 

 

 

 

Because they believe in that 1% I have spoke of.

 

feel free to stretch you imaginations .......but truth lies elsewhere !

 

okay...............now show me some examples were ancient indian saints relied on science and believed in that much god as is attested by science ..!

 

 

Why should we be bothered by people who are blinded by ignorance?

 

 

corrrrrrrrrect !! why should be bothered by what analysis and 'proves' such ignorant people have achieved ? why should our understanding(of god) depend on them ?

 

 

 

I have not come here so I could receive your blessings. If you wish to speak, then speak. Otherwise, leave my sight.

 

 

oh no , i cannot leave .............................................on the other hand as a western individual who hates west and is a buddhist with poor understanding of hindu philosophy and being unable to answer any intelligent question , you can chose to stop posting till you become more knowledgable !!

 

enjoy.........

 

Sambya :

Proving you to be wrong could not make you into a good person NOR will it make me into a wiser person. I could be wasting my time trying to educate someone who believes that alcohol is good for him.

 

i dont belive alcohol is good for me ...........i dont take any such drinks .which i already told in the begining !!

 

 

 

 

You speak of words which you do not understand, and expect others to call you wise. Foolish indeed.

 

 

 

i spoke of bodhittva and i understand the word very well . i dont know what is bodhivatta . it is you who is confusing between the two and refusing to acknowledge the confusion !!

 

 

The very fact that one isolated case (as you call it) remains shows that you are using Wikipedia even so its contents are doubtful. That is proof enough.

ha ha ha ........ i never used any wikipedia source (to all my remembrance i didnt ) .however i said "isolated case" because i couldnt be 100 % sure ....

 

anyways you said that "you usually quote wikipedia" . and next you say that one example((show me if you can) is enough . now one example is not 'usual' .......................it is 'exceptional'..................isnt it ?!!

 

 

 

 

Up to you on what you should believe.

 

comm'on now......................trying to escape the questions only make discussions lengthy !!

 

BDuignan@eb.com

 

Brian Duignan, Senior Editor, Philosophy and Religion Encyclopedia

It is there in the link i gave above.

 

 

thanks

i would like to know if i can email them too !! for as far as i remember their website can be accessed with some premium payment ........im a student who cannot afford to do that right now .

 

simla , can you give me the address where to send this mail ?

 

sambya :

It is not what I say or understand. It is FACT. Fact is Fact, sugar-coating it will not make it anymore pleasant to swallow.

 

put in a other way my words would translate as - " let it be so for you if you think it is fact ! "

 

 

Can you give me an example of something which comes from the West which actually good for you?

i would say it did more harm than good ! but i cannot believe that there was not a single good . thats because there cannot be anything absolute in this temporal world .. nothing can be absolutely good or absolutely bad ...

 

 

 

 

Hmph ... people who follows the 99% will always look for others to verify what they believe in, because they have no idea what they believe in.

the sages of india ( including your buddha ) never relied on science to understand or accept god and neither did they look towards others to verify what they believed !!

 

 

One who believe in the 1% will always know what he believes in is the truth for its simplicity.

 

one who believe in 1% prefers to remain on the safer side lest his 'fragile' belief called god is torn apart by some attacking scientists !!

 

 

I do not see the relationship about my backgrounds and this discussion.

no direct relationship but would have helped me to understand your chronic hatred towards everything western and lack of indepth study of hinduism and its scriptures ...!!

 

BTW , are you a buddhist ......?

 

sambya :

I don't see the purpose of me entertaining you in this matter. Have you not walk around stating how Vedic culture have allowed alcohol drinking?

 

so you cannot prove me wrong

 

 

 

Buddhahood is nothing to do with attaining Bodhivatta. Matter a fact, such belief can only be found in Mahayana Buddhism, which Thervada Buddhism (teachings of Gautama Buddha) do not support.

 

If your goal is to obtain state of Bodhivatta, then you will not find enlightment and will still fall down to the cycle of rebirth.

 

i dont know what bodhivatta is . i was reffereing to bodhittva which is a word used in some indian languages meaning the stage or level of buddhahood .

 

 

 

 

That's funny, you usually use Wikipedia to support your claims in the past.

 

show me where ......!! one isolated case would not do ....

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then what is the use of him being alive for 22 days? Might as well that he dies straightaway.

 

 

i said " a period not extending 22 days " .

 

he might die that very moment !!

 

 

 

In Thervada Buddhism, Gautama Buddha have achieved Enlightnment but he choose to suspend the final process (which involves physical death) in order to teach Humans about the Truth.

 

 

yes .....and how many ordinary mortals can just do that ?

 

 

I'm the Serpeant that Guarded the Buddha in His meditation.

 

avoidance ?!!

i was wondering whether there is any place in any accepted scriptures (not obscure ones) where krishna himself says that he doesnt eat these foods(including non-veg items) !!

 

although personally i can never recomend or support giving non-veg items to bhagavan ( even to kali or durga ) .

 

but this question still lingers in my mind . anyone has an answer ?

 

and I also came to know they were not eating sugar, as it was not sattvic. They drank milk only from their own cows or goats, not the one from factories these days. All this only few decades ago in India, what to speak of centuries before.

 

 

 

sure ................. even today jaggery is used in poojas instead of sugar as it comes from factories . threads are not used to make garlands because they are made in factories . ancient temples uses banana fibres instead !

 

Pure calumny.

 

not at all .............the one or two texts that doesnt have such topics are pure exceptions ............and we all know everything has its exceptions !!

 

 

anyways interested readers would judge that themselves .........i just expressed what i repetitively notice in your posts !!

are you a westerner ?

 

sambya :

No, Christianity alone was the reason for the Dark Ages to commence and last for 500 YEARS, choking the European communities from advancing. Even today, it is a fear of such "choking effect" still could be found in Europe and America where people there are still very much ignorant toward Science.

Same thing except you use some nice words to say it. Ignorant Science was created in the West in order to rebel against the (Christian) god. That is fact no matter how you say it.

 

 

let it be so if you understand it in that way ..

 

 

Quit your daydreams. The Westerners are not that open-minded. They are very egoistic and selfish and they will always look down on Indians, Chinese and everything Asian.

 

 

see this is a complex topic . its true that a significant proportion of western people are not open minded . i was speaking about the more intellectualy oriented westerners .. i think this intorence is characteristics of human race . take india for example . many indians would classify everything that comes from the west as british and vile ! hatred arises from ignorance .....i believe in this !!

 

 

 

Take History for example. Hindu scholars have already discovered that the Sun was the centre of the Solar System and even went to calculate the distant from Earth to the Sun over 1,000 years before Copernicus and what does West teaches to its people there? That Copernicus was the "father" of astronomy.

 

Chinese people have invented paper and used it for various purposes (including as toilet paper) by the time Marco Polo reached China in 13th Century and who gets the credits for inventing the publications? Gutenberg.

 

The Westerners are still very much a Christian even so they do not accept Christianity (as they did during the Dark Ages). They still want their religion to be in the center of everything, and their Jesus to be the most important one and that they are the center of the Universe and all others must bow to them. That attitude did not change from the day they sat foot on the sands of Goa, India to the present day.

 

 

 

thats true

 

 

And THAT is the difference between you and me. I take the 1% to be more important to the 99%.

 

if thats what you believe then you doesnt stand in the position of spiritual aspirant !! if you need scientific prove for legitimising god then your spirituality is weird and shallow !! i sorry but thats truth .........you can get it verified from any guru of any sampradya in india in case you disbelieve me !!

 

sambya :

And why should I? By keep asking other to prove you to be wrong, you have already believed that you are correct. In such situation, explaining anything to you could be a waste of time.

 

now your are evading the simple question !! i assure you i am really interested to see the other way of understanding as seen by someone else ! i am eager to know what your views are about vedic culture on drinking !

 

 

And what may I ask do you understand by this state of Buddhahood?

when you reply to a question with another question ( which you did a lot of times) how can you expect others to reply to your question with an answer ?!! that a bad logic.......

 

but anyways since i cannot be you , here is what i mean by buddhahood and buddha :

 

buddhahood or attainment of bodhittva - a perfectional stage of human developement bothe materially and spiritually resulting in realization of the truth and consequent liberation , attained through the practise of deep contemplation and meditation . of course this is a highly inadequate answer , for details might extend into pages .

 

buddha - the price siddhartha gautama who set froth this exemplary renunciation by quitting his kingdom and famil in search of peace and truth . the person who had brahmajigyasa (spiritual inquisiton) merely by seeing different stages of a human life !! one who lead a austere life and underwent extreme tapasya before realizing and attaining peace and enlightment , drwing around him a group of influential disciples from which came forward the later world faith of buddhism !! this is buddha .

 

buddhahood and buddha himself are not the same terms ..

 

 

 

 

Jivanmukta concept could only be found in Advaita Vedanta - which was founded by Adi Shankara. And it is the ONLY school which stated such concept where a person can achieve Moksha even while he still alive.

 

Jivanmukta - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

stop referring to wikipedia articles filled with mistakes !!

 

 

And what happens after the 22 days?

 

biologically he dies(bodily functions ceases)

spiritually he is liberated(moksha)

 

 

Then you agree that there are other Buddhas who have come and went from the time Gautama Buddha was around to this day?

 

And there is no such thing as Historical Buddha. The True Buddha is Gautama Buddha ALONE. The next one could be Maitreya Buddha.

 

are you a buddhist ?

 

What ? Of course i haven't gone thru' all of them ! I am not the one who is doubting what the acharyas have said.

 

true , but you are the one who is also claiming it and therefore its your duty to show the places ..

 

 

If i come across anything specific i shall post it. The Manu Samhita talks about onion, garlic, leeks.

 

i shall wait . by the way i was not talking about onion and garlic . i was concentrating on massor dal , carrots radish etc

 

 

 

 

but apart from scriptures perhaps you could also provide with some logic so as to why these things are forbidden . if carrots and raddish is forbidden because they grow underground then why are potatoes eaten ? what about turmeric ? why is milf sattvick and dal not ? what might be the simple logic behind this ?

 

What does it mean rk?

 

 

ah...never mind what it ,means !!

 

it refers to ramakrishna . the three aspects of chandu's posts are :

-showing to the world how vile and wretched islam is !

-how dangerous and murderous "neo-hindus" are !!

-how criminal ramakrishna was !!

 

 

theres not a single post without reference to atleast any one from these three . go to his profile and check his 'find all posts' to see what i mean !

 

Thank You Chanduji.

 

Those who want scriptural ref. can skim through Varaha Purana,Padma purana,Garuda purana, and Hari BhaktiVilas (as Galaxy has already mentioned) , also read Ayurveda (Foods inducing vata pitta kapha ... ) .

 

Food offered to Sri Hari (Vishnu Tattva) has to be Sattvic.

 

since you have already gone through all of them please be generous enough to specify the verses so that people can find it with ease without requiring to read through all the books !

 

sambya :

To me, whether it is Materialistic Knowledge or Spiritual knowledge - only thing I could think about is HOW TO USE THEM for benefit of Mankind. If you cannot use them for the benefit of Mankind, then those knowledge are USELESS.

 

 

i agree .

 

 

 

 

Wrong ... Western Science evolved from the needs to debunk Christian god. And that is fact.

 

Unlike in India, the Europeans have lived for 500 years in (what historians called) Dark Ages. In that period of time, Christianity was practiced and Science is according to the Bible. Which means that anyone who said that the Earth is not the Center of the Universe or the Solar System, or that there are other lifeforms somewhere else and such WILL BE CONSIDERED HERETIC AND PUNISHED BY DEATH.

 

So, Science grew later with a goal of ensuring that the Dark Ages do not return. Unfortunately for us (in the East), this foolish people considered Asians to be lowered in status and education and attended to "reeducate" Asians so they could be more civilized. And that is how this ignorant Science found it's way to Asia.

 

 

christianity and its persecutions played a nice role in starting this dark ages but it was not the only factor . dark ages was also a period of social stagnancy and unproductivity and there were numerous other factors involved in its creation .

 

science was created not to deny god but to provide an alternative explantion to the world around ..it was a product of rebellious emotions of some people long oppresed under catholic yoke .

 

and finally when this new science movement gained momentum and found more members it naturally chose to throw away everyting related with the oppressive christianity . it was more of an attack on christianity , a liberation movement from papal power .

 

later when eastern religions with their broad mind setup reached the west , the contemporary scientists were curious and eager to know more of the subtle indian philosophies !!

 

hence it would ne incorrect to say that they created science exclusively for denying god . if you disagree prove your point .

 

 

 

I don't know ... what do you think?

 

99% is useless without the 1% to complete it, and 1% is simply too small to be considered as an important fact. So, what do you believe we should do?

 

 

 

i take the word of scriptures ! they are from the mouths of realized souls .. so what they say about god is far more trustworthy and relevent than anything else !!

 

So speaks the Drunkards.

\

im not speaking for drinking but merely acknowledging that drinking habits has always been there in ancient india . you are certainly free to prove me wrong if you are knowledgable enough !!

 

 

 

Do you think that being a Buddha means that a person have to dress like the Buddha, speak and walk around like the Teacher (Gautama Buddha)? If that is your understand of Buddha, I will say that you are sadly mistaken.

do you not understand the bhava of the words when spoken ? i think you do not . when i said buddha i meant the enlightened state or buddhahood .

 

 

Being a Buddha means being liberated from Rebirth. And that could only be achieve AT THE MOMENT OF DEATH.

 

once again .......your shallow knowledge in hindu spirituality !! ha ha .

 

it is very much possible to get liberated while living in a body .........although only by rarest of rare individuals . they are called jivanmuktas or one who is liberated even while living . nirvikalpa samadhi which is considered as the highest perfectional stage automatically liberates a soul but he might live in that state for a period not extending 22 days . those few days of his living is also after moksha ......got it ?

 

 

Which means in the past 2,500 years (since Gautama Buddha), there could be countless Buddhas who followed His ways and liberate themselves. However, they do not stay on this World after Liberation.

 

 

ordinary liberation and historical buddha are not the same thing . characters like buddha come once in a millenia . they cannot be compared to many others getting liberated .

 

 

 

This is because a person who have become Buddha (liberated) can still fall back into the Cycle of Birth and Death if he sway from the Truth even for a moment.

ha ha ha !! you are a child . no it is never possible ...... the action of a liberated soul automatically corresponds to the divine will . he doesnt have to try to remain truthfull but his nature is perfected to such a degree that he cannot help but be trutfull . after liberation there is no chance of falling down ever . if someone falls down that prooves that he was never liberated in the first place !!

 

however there is a class of rare men (whom people like to worship or assign divinity ) who willingly comes back to the material world after liberation to teach people ...

 

 

why are you so arrogant .?.....it shows in you writings and i thought we are just discussing !!

chandu , you know that im a follower of ramakrishna very well ......and im not ashamed to declare it !! and perhaps you also know that it is basic etiquette not to blasphemise or speak bad about someone's guru or ideal in front of him !! and judging from your posts you appear to be a mature man and not some young teenage guy . you are way to older than me .........maybe of my fathers age !!

 

i think you have never been taught the fundamental rules of courtesy not to speak badly of someones guru directly in front of him ! you are repeatdly and ignorantly(for you hardly know him properly) shouting abuses against ramakrishna .

 

hope you have a little more courtsey and social politeness while talking . (if you have had someone to teach you that !! )

 

bye