sambya

oh God...

 

referencing Sambya's good mimicry of my hypothetical conversation between a bhagavata and a mayavadi...

 

it is not the same...

i was just showing you the loopholes in your logic . grudges a bhagavata has towards an advaitist might as well be harboured by an advaitist towards a bhagavata .

that doesnt give anyone the right to ninda and call rascal , not to any of the parties .

The bhagavata purana states that mayavadis offend the Supreme Lord by declaring Him to be Mayic.

That's like saying Brahmadeva is a chandala.

 

see the supreme lord as per majority hindu scriptures is brahman . 'supreme lord' to a vaishnava is vishnu . but 'supreme lord' to an advaitist is nirguna brahman . he doesnt offend nirguna brahman .

obviously after months of experiance in this forum you wouldnt proceed to debate on basis of a purana ?

You won't understand this.To you it's not important...You may be a great kali bhakta or whatever..but it doesn't help even one bit when you think that Bhagavan has a sattvic body...It's an offense...blasphemy...

oh of course it is important . my mother is sattvick as brahmani , rajasic as vaishnavi and tamasic as rudrani , trigunamayi as adishakti and tri-guna-tita as sodashi !!

she is formless when she is brahman , energy when she is brahmashakti , with form when she is uma , the daughter of the himalayas !

in short she is all

any more doubts ?!!

Like saying Jagadamba is like an ordinary woman of Mumbai...You just don't get it do you...??

 

after all the descriptions that i have given of her , do you think that i veiw her that way ? by the way , i know what you think of her -- " forms of uma maheswar are horrendous and revolting "

If you say that Bhagavatas are wrong when they criticise the mayavadis,then so be it.

 

yes , i say so and very strongly . and numerous others also have been saying so for thousands of years .

at the end of the day,whatever you believe is JUST mayavada..

whatever you believe is petty dvaitavada ( ha ha ha)

falling short of reasons and trying to escape by sying this ?!!

hi hi........

for you,sab chalta hai...mix everything and then just keep on speculating on it.

wrong again .....ranjeet nahi chalta .....!! ho ho .....

Yato mat tato path(As many views as many PATHS).

Famous?, yeh.

 

Even if those paths turned humanbeings in to killers and slavers.

 

Yes, all are valid paths...

 

Back to neo-hinduism and universalism.

im just pointing out theist's accute shortage of intelligence !!

i'll illustrate it -

thiest's and iskcon traditional and much taught view :

'yato mat tato path is absolutely invalid . that is there can never be many ways to god . ramakrishna was the greatest misguider that ever existed in this earth because he said all gods are equal . he and vivekanada together is manifestation of adharma and kali ( yes you heard it right) . there is only one way through krishna and bhakti marga . christians and islam are acceptable as they believe in personal god . therefore they are fellow vaishnavs ."

and now theists comes up with --

'Universal or equal vision is not just recognizing everyone is spirtual soul. It is also being able to recognize the same truth when it is taught by someone outside your own religious/ cultural circle.

Just as someone who cannot recognize the soul in another form different from his own can not truly recognize the soul within his own so someone who cannot recognize the truth when spoken by others from a different background than his own cannot truly understand the same truth within himself. '

ha ha ha !! see that -- yato mat tato path ! thiest can we ask for an explantion or bhasya to your sutra ? ha ha..

chandu , i know that you cant survive without them but for gods sake dont start islam and neo hinduism again ...please!

moderators and administrator please dont delete the post . i have neither named anyone nor blaphemised anybody !!! just presenting the truth !

parable of sri ramakrishna --

one day a learned guru told to his dearmost disciple , " no one is your own in this temporary world ...only god is your own ..... leave everything and come with me to himalayas to achieve him !! "

but the disciple was just not prepared yet . he replied back doubtfully , " o gurudev , i know that god should be my priority in life , but how can i forget the love of my family members ? the loving care of my mother . the dedication of my faithful wife , the unconditional love of my little daughter , how can i forget those ?!! "

the guru replied , " all right , i will show you that no one is your own in this world except god . i give you this miracle tablet . today when you go home lie down on bed and pop it in your mouth . and your bodily functions would cease immideately ! but you shall continue to live unnoticed and can see and hear everythin around you . i shall come in due time "

trusting on the wise words of his guru the disciple set off towards his house and swallowed the pill as directed by him to fall down apparently dead ! the mother came rushing in and started crying . the wife broke down . the little daughter started sobbing .....it was a sad moment .

at that time the guru came in the garb of a fakir and said , " dont worry mother , i will cure him . he is not yet dead as you think !! "

hearing this the family members all became overjoyed .

the fakir continued " here, take this small tablet and make him swallow it , he shall be revived in a flash !! "

the family became overjoyed and as they were about to pop it into the disciple's mouth the fakir interrupted and said ," wait a minute , there's a condition ! "

"what condition? " they exclaimed

" before you make him swallow it one of you must take this second tablet which i give to you now . but one who accepts to take this one shall die in return of his life . im sure since you love him so much and cannot live a moment without him you shall bravely come forward and accept the offer ?! "

no one replied . finally the mother said , " o wise man , whatever was destined has happened and now he is dead . but if i leave who shall take care of the litlle grandaughters and their marraige ? who shall take care of my ageing husband ? "

the fakir turned to the wife ..

the wife replied " im unfortunate to have lost my husband at so early age . but alas what can be done ? i cannot die , for i have to act the gaurdian to my daughter . "

all the while the disciple was seeing this happen around his apparently dead body . he was shocked back to his senses and having entered his body once more he started with a jerk and said to the fakir , " gurudev , lets leave immideately .... .................................................................

.................i shall start tapasya in the himalayas .... !!! "

Don't worry changes are part of our life,previously there were lot of noises and now its reduced.

yes indeed !! i have been noticing it of late . people have stopped fighting for good !!

its been a long while that anyone posted another 'who is greater' or 'advaita vs dvaita' threads !!

let us all keep things like this -- increase our communication but keep our voices low ..

i think the words of jahnava prabhu have taken effect . all gories to him .

lets pray it continues....

to ranjeet ,

so using the words 'rascal' and 'idiot' indiscriminately amounts to mere criticism ?!!

i thought it was direct and uncivilized insult !!

 

This is not a taunt,just a way of making you understand,

 

Mayavadi : Brahm has no form.All forms are of maya.

 

Bhagavata in his mind,"Oh I have seen MYSELF the eternal,Blissful form of

 

My shyamsundara and I SEE the eternal Vaikuntha ever fixed and yet this

 

mayavadi is speaking like this.No doubt he speaks about the formless

 

aspect of My Lord,but still this is not beneficial for the devotees.If i don't

 

criticise him,they will be confused and UNDERMINE the form of

 

Shyamsundar."

 

So Bhagavata to mayavadi : You are a rascal.

This is not a taunt,just a way of making you understand,

dvaitavadi: Brahm cannot be formless.All formless perceptions are inferior perceptions .

advaitist in his mind,"Oh I have realized MYSELF the eternal and Blissful

brahman and I FEEL the eternal brahmananda , and yet this

dvaitavadi is speaking like this . No doubt he speaks about the saguna

aspect of My Lord,but still this is not the highest perception .If i don't

criticise him, general masses will be confused and UNDERMINE the importance of brahman. "

So advaitist to dvaitavadi : You are a rascal.....

does it sound good to you ?!! .............. i just used your example and logic !!

It is also being able to recognize the same truth when it is taught by someone outside your own religious/ cultural circle.

the famous yato mat tato path ...

dont you think you are deviating from what has been traditionally taught to you ?!!!

Just as someone who cannot recognize the soul in another form different from his own can not truly recognize the soul within his own so someone who cannot recognize the truth when spoken by others from a different background than his own cannot truly understand the same truth within himself.

ha ha ...you are first in that list !

no amount of good suggestions can change the habits of centuries !!

anyways here is what i expect --

if they cannot respect or love other faiths and beliefs let them be silent at least ....stop ninda and rectify the holier than thou attitude .

thats it

I believe the criticism referred to here is actually needless fault finding, based on envy. It doesnt refer to disagreeing, or debating other beliefs.

well , for most vaishnavas who criticize , it doesnt restrict itself to mere disagreement or debate . invariably it turns to ninda or criticism out of envy.

but anyways , i guess we've all grown used to it.................

I believe the criticism referred to here is actually needless fault finding, based on envy. It doesnt refer to disagreeing, or debating other beliefs.

well, for most vaishnavas who criticize , it doesnt restrict itself to ordinary disagreement or debate . invariably it turns to ninda or criticism out of envy !

but anyways , we have grown used to it.........

Why then the shaktism.

Other demigods are just manifestaions o raspects of vishnu.Im not saying just like that but great acharyas have accepted only vishnu.What explaantion can you give.Even adi shanakracharya in his commentary to vishnu sahasranam has identified vishnu as brahm.He hasnt given this status to durga or anyone else.

com'on now !! not again !

try and help to me to clear the doubts instead !

to the OP--

Im waiting ... .......... any answers ?

I thought you also were a vaishnav

in many ways i am and in a few way i am not !

i belong to vaishnav family by birth . i acccept krishna and vishnu as the highest god . i love and adore mahaprabhu and his original sankirtan movement . i believe in naam-mahatmya .

however i do not that krishna or vishnu is the exclusive highest god ! i do not believe that liberation can be only granted by krishna . i do not believe that advaitavada is false !

these im sure would fall within the beliefs of a non-vaishnava .

anyways that doesnt clear the doubts that i am speaking of ......

Nor am I trying to have it both ways. In all my posts over the last decade you will not find one where I claim to be a disciple of any guru including Srila Prabhupada. Not that Srila Prabhupada is not Jagad guru, i fully accept that he is, but to be a disciple of someone means to be fully under the discipline that he prescribes. So I don't qualify as a disciple.

 

I have chosen to try and learn about Krishna from the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

this , he achieved without even having recieved a single instruction from his manas-guru dronachaarya .

it is clearly not relevant whether you have met prabupada personally or have taken inititation within the order started by him . if his teachings appeal to your mind above the rest and you follow it , you are his disciple . manas guru- mental guru ! stop denying yourself !

and if you deny him as your guru then stop promoting any of this philosophy . there's no other way round !

The qualities of a Vaishnava described in the song are only how the world may identify a Vaishnav outwardly in material world, and from Gaudiya spiritual point of view, we hear them as always humbly absorbed in service for the love of Hari

true but my doubts lies elsewhere !

i'll try to summarise them again --

1--does "feeling for sufferings of others" include in its scope both material and spiritual sufferings or it leaves the foodless to die in the streets by blaming them for their bad karma ??

2--when it is mentioned that a vaishnav "does not criticize anyone" does it come with exceptions like shaktas , shaivas , ganapatyas , suryas , advaitists ?

3-- when it is said that a vaishnav "has conquered passion,avarice and anger" does it exclude anger towards advaitists and others sects( anger proper , im not talking of ordinary difference of opinion) ?

i ask these questions because these are most common traits in many vaishnavas !

clear my doubts...

this is a wonderfull song and very inspiring , but i have some practical confusions......

Vaishnav jan to tene kahiye je

PeeD paraayi jaaNe re

One who is a Vaishnav knows and feels the suffering of others

that should mean both material sufferings and spiritual sufferings , right ?

Par-dukhkhe upkaar kare toye

Man abhimaan na aaNe re

 

Serves others who are in miseries, does not let pride enter his mind

 

both material and spiritual miseries i presume ?

SakaL lok maan sahune vande

Nindaa na kare keni re

 

Humble to all, in the entire world, does not criticize anyone

"not criticize anyone " ? many vaishnavas criticize everyone !! do they overlook the word 'anyone' ?

VaN-lobhi ne kapaT-rahit chhe

Kaam-krodh nivaarya re

 

Has conquered passion,avarice and anger

 

anger towards other sampradayas is freely permissible ?

clear my doubts...

it is the level of realization and the level of purity that you have attained that matters . if you have some extent of realization and have attained sufficient purity you shall automatically think of god towards the end . mere one time holy thoughts at the end do not work at all !!

The arguments of Theist are cogent and strong. Apparently Prabhupada is not his authority - neither is he mine.

 

thats a new phenomenon i have been noticing lately . the moment any hare krishna deals with some tricky questions they start by denying prabhupada . many prominent gaudiya vaishnava practitioners here have said that one time or the other !!

The Secrets of Bhakti gets decrypted only when one has already conquered everything... The Chosen One broadens his thinking from his own inside fighting like conquering senses etc...

By merely saying Love for Krishna... things does not end there... since Krishna means everthing... One Loves Everyone... which can only happen when One has conquered everything... and Bhakti Starts from there...

 

WORKING SELFLESSLY FOR LOKASAMSAMGRAHA.

nice

 

As far as I know Bhakts only concern is how to please the sweet Lord, nothing else, as they aspire only for "Prema Bhakti" devotion NOT even "mukti" liberation.

as i am a bhakti practitioner i would like to believe that prema bhakti is infinitely higher and more selfless than craving for moksha .

however there remains one little problem !

when you give krishna naam to 'fallen souls' in order to liberate them from material world you are attempting a liberation(moksha) . without that there is no meaning as to why a human should practise bhakti . you might say bhakti is to love god selflessly ... correct ........ but why should anyone love god ? answer -- to get liberated from sorrrows or material world or materials attachments etc etc . if it is not so there is no point in preaching the glories of lord to people or to try to make them spiritual . moksha always remains the end !! think about it .......

According to the Padma Purana,[24] the texts may be classified in accordance with the three gunas or qualities; truth, passion, and ignorance:

Sattva ("truth; purity"): Vishnu Purana, Bhagavata Purana, Naradeya Purana, Garuda Purana, Padma Purana, Varaha Purana

"sattvick purana" ...............the same old story ............................ and yet a purana which is claimed as sattvick advocates sati --garuda purana !!

if you know the smell of true cow ghee then you can easily identify it from colour and its distinctive smell . in indian temperatures its semisolid for most of the time . cow ghee is generally golden brown in colour and not white .

but the best indentification would be its beautifull smell ...

Are we to stay celibate always.. even in marriage? Because I don't think I can do this.. Will Krishna not accept me if I have sex within marriage? And If I do have sex in marriage I would practice it with tantra.. Is this OK?? I kind of feel depressed over this..

of course not !! no one is supposed to remain celibate through his entire life . people should marry and lead a devotional life . and i think that refraining from sex except for procreation is practically an extreme rare phenomenon .

the fact that you are concerned about krishna before marrying is a proof in itself that he is the first priority in your life . we are bound to be doomed the day when we forget that he is our first priority . after marraige one should cling on to krishna more steadfastly lest he gets attached to material things in a moment of neglect !! attachment to material things and forgetfullness towards god is very easy to come ........!

but it is also true that pure brahmacharya(tough as hell) is extremely(infact continence yeilds maximum results ) conducive towards realizing him ..

i have heard of people using banana pulp to produce cheap ghee . apart from that many other ghee producing companies use vanaspati or vegetable fats to adulterate their product .

personally i have noticed that ghee produced by ashrams , small rural cooperative societies and upliftment projects are the best . its identical to home made ghee . the ghee from iskcon is also of excellent quality and comes at a cheap price !!

its very dissapointing to see anyone using bad quality ghee for yagna or bhoga cooking .

 

I understand. Ganga water does not remove dirt. I'm talking about spiritual purity here. For example, if my wife touched something when she had her period, would the Ganga water purify it if it wasn't dirty in other ways?

in india the traditional practice for any women in her periods is to refrain from doing anything connected with diety worship . even her clothings are considered impure for the time being . ganga water cannot 'purify' her in those days .

That sounds like a good idea. Can the same dhoti also be worn to the temple?

one more thing................ ordinary visit to a temple should not require so much restrictions . it is a different thing when you are entering the garbhagriha or touching the deity . strict regulations should be maintened as a sign of respect to deity and the public tradition . in your home however you can definitely be less stern . make it a point to sit down and pray everyday withut fail . its better to do a puja in dirty clothes(at your home ---- assuming you didnt do a prana-pratishtha) than not to do it atall. perhaps you could begin by thoroughly washing the hands , feet and face and by draping the dhoti around and by sprinkling some ganga water over your head .

first of all impurity is in our minds . if we are mentally impure no amout of physical purity can make us pure . mental impurity can be anything from sexual thoughts to criminal thoughts depending on the position in life . for example for a sadhu sexual thoughts is highly impure and for a grihasta it is not so impure .

having said that it should also be noted that physical purity leads to gradual mental purity . both are interconnected . you must have noticed how relaxing and refreshing it feels after taking a bath . you mind is more conducive to concentration at that stage . therefore physical purity also comes in , in a great way !!

regular bath and personal hygine is a must . it preferrable to wear washed clothes while entering puja room or a temple . various body fluids and secretions have contaminative powers as per hindu scirptures . thats why a pujari first finishes off with duties of nature and takes a bath , then wears washed clothes and then utter the names of lord and perform gayatri to cleanse himself inside out !

ganga water brahma-swaroop . each and every saint of india have attested to that . but there must be belief in it divine powers . also , ganga water cannot be used as an excuse for not washing !

most importantly dont get too obssesive with small do's and dont's like brands of soap etc . innumerable indians have such tendencies .....they are dangerous impediments towards spirituality .

just take a bath , wear washed clothes , think of lord , take his name in mouth and set off towards the temple . and when you reach there take some small gifts (garland, flowers,sweets) as you would to your loved ones . one should not have a darshan of god and sadhu with empty hands .

thats all....