sambya

no . thats not possible . i mean thats not mentioned or practised anywhere . but personally and from a purely spiritual viewpoint i feel that seeing every girl as mother is the culimination point of kumari pooja . realising the divine in evry conscious being and respecting every women as a mother helps one to follow spiritual path .

in that way , it would be better if we learn to revere the women all around the world as devi all year round , rather than doing an extravagant puja and abusing a girl in the street the next day !

kumari puja in mind and all year round would solve many of world's problems !!!

One of the many interesting practises in India is that of Kumari pooja - the worship of a young prepubescent girl as the divine mother .

ORIGINS

Its hard to state with certainity the places or the rituals from which such a custom originated . Many scholars link it with early uncorrupted version of bhairavi sadhana in mystic tantricism where females are chosen to be worshipped as the divine . Inspite of accute lack of evidence and other problems one thing is clearly established , that Kumari puja is definitely a contribution of tantra . much in the same way as it contributed Mudra , Puja , Bija-mantra into the fold of Hinduism .

PHILOSOPHY

Kumari puja seeks to view the supreme as mother inside conscious beings . Just like deity worship is imposition of divinity on inanimate(jada) objects , Kumari puja is imposition of divinity on animate conscious ( chit ) objects . in Markendaya purana Devi declares " ekaivaham jagat tatra dwitiya kaa mamaapara ?" which is translated as " I am the only one that exists in this manifestation " . She is also invoked by the Devas as "striyah samasta sakala jagatsu" whcih means "all the female jivas are verily your manifestations " . This two verse is elaborated in the concept of Kumari puja . It seeks to find the divine mother in female of the species . And as a child is the most chaste and most beautiful creation of the heavens she is chosen to be the residing place of the goddess .

DHYANAMANTRA

Balarupancha trailokyasundarim varavarninim nanalamkaara namrangim bhadravidya prakaashinim.

Chaaruhaasyam mahananda hridayaam shubhadam shubham dhyayet kumarim jananim paramananda rupinim.

I meditate on the divine mother who is the condensed form of bliss , in her form as a child , one who is most beautiful among the three worlds , covered with jewels and revealer of the highest knowledge , one with a beautiful smile and blissfull heart , giver of all good .

WORSHIP

Most common occasion for her worship is during the auspicious hours of Navaraatri . In north India each household invite one or many young girls from other households and worship them with offerings and gift items . This may be done by the lady of the house herself or through the help of a priest and proper rituals . the main intention is the see her happy . It is known as Kanyaa pujan .

In eastern states like Bengal , Assam , Orissa and parts of Bihar the ritual is a bit different . A single girl is chosen from Brahmin caste with auspicious signs and pleasant looks to be decorated as a goddess . Then she is brought to the place where worship of Devi has already been going on and the rituals are then conducted on her . She is offered all the sixteen items of worships and showered with lavish gifts to please her , like chocolates , dresses , jewellery , toys , cosmetics etc .

In Nepal things are totally different . Here Kumari assumes a huge importance . There are huge palaces dedicated to a Kumari . A girl is chosen from buddhist tribe after the 32 auspicious signs have matched . Then she must be fearless . On a new-moon night she is made to spend a night in a hall filled with severed heads of buffaloes and goats offered as sacrifice to the goddess . If she remains unmoved she is chosen as the next goddess , the post in which she remains till she menstruates . During her stay she is worshiped once a day , gives darshan to people , studies under private tutors , plays with children specifically appointed for that purpose , gives blessings to the king and prime minister of Nepal and officiates the state festivals .Her feet are not supposed to touch the ground after she turns a Kumari . For this reason she is carried around in a palanquin whenever she is supposed to leave her palace quarters !!

CRITICISMS

Many people have pointed out the ill effects on the psychology of these little girls when the grow up . Much criticisms have been hurled at this custom . But contrary to the popular belief most girls do find a happy family life later on . And reports of psychological disorders are also not heard of .

Still one cannot deny the possibility of creating a mental strain on these little girls , specially during the ghastly test of fearlessness !

However in India where the entire rituals last for only a few hours it assumes a more funny ambience . Specially when the girl's parents touch down at her feet to get her blessings !! It is a kind of victory day for the otherwise dominated child . There is a reversal of roles . In India most Kumaris eagerly look forward to be pampered and loved in this manner .

But is the Nepal Kumari custom too severe and violation of human rights ? what do you think ?

Only in the eyes of a child who does not know who is his father.

the first word a child utters is ma . next his mom teaches him where is his 'pa' !!!!!!

may be it happens the other way round in your part of the world (not suprising western girls are so manly unlike here in the east) , but in india that has been the tradition for centuries . the deepest human bond for any average indian would be his 'maa' !!!

modern gaudiya movements use these terms in a much abstract meaning . this way , anyone who is not an adherent of saaraswata gaudiya sampradaya starting with BSST becomes a sahajiya . in reality sahajiya is a particular sect that believe in what they call sahajamarg and propagated their leader aaulchand as an incarnation of chaitanya . today every other sect is 'sahajiya' .

similarly most advaitins today believe and actively practise davitamarg also . things have changed a lot from days of chaitanya mahaprabhu when monists didnt even accept dualistic concepts . but modern gaudiyas would use the term impersonal to everyone starting with gyanamargis , ganapaatyas , shaktas or buddhists !!!!

I`m not expecting all the members here to answer to one conclusion who God is. To each his own if one says God is Sambhu or Krsnah. People have diverse mentalities to quote Srila Prabhupada. And that is due to their personal karmas. Some people worship Sambhu as God because maybe they want to smoke ganja. But those who worship Krsnah as God worship Him as such is because they love His pastimes as the wonderful flute player who lifted up Govardhana Hill to protect Vrndavan from being flooded from the torrential rains brought upon by Lord Indra the King of heaven on the residents of Vrndavan. Maybe they just can`t help reminisce how Krsnah stole the clothes of the damsels of Vraja while they were bathing in the Yamuna river. Or how He was able to obtain 16,108 wives while in Dvaraka, so on and so forth. Yes, it`s true I`m living in a fool`s paradise if I insist that Krsnah is God. But who doesn`t if one also insist that it`s Sambhu whom we should worship as God. But if we don`t believe in God then that`s another story.

hey , that was not meant for you but the original poster !

sorry if you are offended !!

i saw this thread i immideately felt that what would ultimately follow is another shiva krishna shakti debate as has been going on for 5000 years in india . thats why i felt that it is highly unwise to ask such questions over internet where you would be left more confused .

Do you believe in extraterrestials?

yes , i dont reject the possibilty that they exist . and its not necessary that it has to be only on a earth like planet . they might survive on seemingly adverse life conditions also . just like the multicellular organisms living in the bottom of mariana trench where sunlight doesnt reach or the bacterias in the geysers of yellowstone national park . the mariana trench organisms broke the myth that sunlight is the prime energy source for living beings . those creatures get energy from heated water and steam from underwater volcanoes and cracks !!

similar creatures (might be intelligent ones) may have flourished elsewhere in universe .

this was from purely established scientific persepective . personally i believe in the modern multiverse(as opposed to universe) hypothesis by physics which indicates to the existence of multiple and also parrellel universes .

you have come to a wrong place . this forum has been fighting for the answer since it was first started and is still without answers .

if you are expecting all members to answer to one conclusion then you are certainly living in a fools paradise .

What I know from Charles Von Daniken in his book the Chariot of the Gods is the earth used to be a sun and that the moon used to be earth. That the sun which has cooled off ( primordial earth) would have to look for anot..................................................................

oh god!

this daniken is a weird chap . although his books are really interesting and fascinating , he often tries to drag his stories to make them fit into his theories .

for example just because pyramids of egypt are weird in shape and are so robust is enough for him to conclude that it must have been the creation of tourist aliens and it is not posible for humans of that era to build that firm structures !!

Since He and His associates are mentioned in the sloka,How is He considered to be formless ???

which word speaks of associates ? i think you are again having a trouble with simple english . i was speaking of attributeless , not merely formless !

Certainly Nirguna has to imply beyond maya in the sloka.

good . then that might as well be the meaning to 'nirguna brahman' also ? brahman beyond maya ?

Mayavada is adamant on one point,"Sri Krsna and Sri Rama are sattvic in nature."

i believe in advaita and i have always been taught that they are trigunatita . i dont know where did you get that conception from !

Look at Kabeer.You become a gyani like him na...what do you know bout Bhagavan's body ???

true , i might never know him , but what kind of chaintanya devotee are you , to always think that you and your godbrothers are the only eligible persons for knowing him ? trinad api sunichena...........!!

ranjeet , dont , i repeat dont get into same thing once more !

if you have any explanation or meaning or suggestion to the sloka itself state that to us instead od wrting pages of personal speculation ! you are not getting my reply otherwise !!

Also sometimes in anger at someone we think bad for other people,

sometimes I try to think about god at times like this or sometimes I cant control my thinking but I never take any actions on these thoughts.

What is the result of this thinking?Is it a sin ?Most of the times

people just provoke me and sometimes the mistake is mine.

I am working to control my anger.But I read somewhere that in Kali

yuga only sinful actions are punished sinful thinking is not.Is it true?

see , its really hard ( almost impossible ) for a human to determine which activity yeilds what karma . suppose you are travelling in a bus which accidentally runs down a man and he dies . now a little of this bad karma would fall on you . this way consciously or unconsciously we are gathering innumerable karmas , both good and bad, at our every step in life .

and the more you try to concentrate on these activities the more entagled would you become . good karma is also an equal curse for a spiritual candidate . after the rewards bestowed upon you because of good karma finishes you are doomed to the same bitter world , which would be even more paifull . and this way most men spend up their entire precious human birth . seeking punya , doing vrats , givings daan to brahmins , feeding crows etc etc .

even astrology cannot alter your karma . the only possible way to get rid of karma is to surrender yourself to almighty . but then again , a person transcends karma only at the highest stages of realization . in the sadhana period there is no chance of escaping karma . but one good hope always stands for a sadhak . a genuine sadhak generally follows the right morals and right behaviour , which automatically cretes good karmas which inturn level out the previous bad ones .

bad thoughts are definately not good . crime is in the mind . if the mind is pure activities are automatically pure . but is the mind is impure bad activities are bound to ensue , sooner or later .

as the saying goes "bhavagraahi janardan" -- lord janardan sees the mind of his devotee . so if you are wishing someone harm , you suffer the consequences .

anger is a more common problem and second of the sadaripus which creates untold problems both in material and spiritual life . even im under its spell so i cannot comment on how to control it !! but meditation , prayer and rational thought process definitely helps to reduce it .

swami vivekananda said-

if what we are in present is determined by the past then what we shall be in future can be determined by the present .

so stop thinking on such petty issues and lead a quality life with surrender to god .

originally posted by ranjeetmore

Hari immediately signifies Hari,His actual form,His abode,His pastimes,His parikars,His names everything BY DEFAULT.

So you can't just say,"Eh Hari,You are nirguna(formless/without attributes.)" when actually Hari means all His paraphernalia.

yes , thats what i meant and said . hari is 'all' and not 'only this' .

by the way your posts didnt explain my questions at all .

one more thing !

my idea in showing these inconsistencies is not to devalue any belief or faith .

i just want to show that krishna is as much personal as he is impersonal.

krishna = brahman , brahman=krishna , rather than brahman < krishna as the gaudiyas try to depict everytime , even out of such slokas where he is explicitly shown to be nirguna !

for ex-

in gita , krishna specifically mentions that people following gyan marga shall also reach him but with difficulties . here it is obvious that gyana marga is also a valid equal path albeit difficult .

but seconds later gaudiyas would come up with theories that mayavada(gyana marga) is false , that sankaracharya preached false doctrines etc etc !!! false and difficult are not same !!

if someone willfully wants to pursue a harder and strenous path why should anyone bother to call him a cheat (gaudiyas call them worse than athiests even when krishna himself doesnt say anything like this !) ?

i shall summarise the question for easier understanding . the word guna can be understood as attributes or the three gunas of material nature .

the gaudiyas are accepting the latter while interpreting the word.

but when you say nirguna the meaning of guna is not the three gunas but all attributes . and this is the primary meaning .

so under what pretext is this primary meaning being rejected for acceptance of the secondary meaning , when such practices was not accepted by mahaprabhu himself as illustrated in charitamrita ?

yes ,that was a small mistake on my behalf .but if you have noticed i had also used the word attribute-less on two occasions which has the same meaning as 'devoid of attributes' . but later i made that small error .

ill have it edited .

nirguna means without attributes , for sure . but i think the advaita vedanta sometimes do tend to understand this as 'beyond attributes' .

in the beginging i thank kulapavana for providing the gaudiya translation .

this was the original sloka -"harirhi nirgunah saakshat purushah prakriteh parah

sa sarvadrig upadrashta tvam bhajannirguno bhavet "

this was the translation in a non gaudiya(non gaudiya in the sense not belonging to iskcon or gaudiya math) book- one who worships sri hari becomes nirguna , because sri hari himself is nirguna , beyond prakriti , god(purusha) himself , veiwer of all things and witness to everything

this is the gaudiya(modern and latest gaudiya organizations) interpretation--

"Lord Hari, however, has no connection with the material modes. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the all-seeing eternal witness, who is transcendental to material nature. One who worships Him becomes similarly free from the material modes."

but i cannot understand how this translation is brought about !

harir hi - hari himself

nirguna- attribute-less

sakshat-himself

purushah-supreme male or god

prakriteh parah-beyond material nature

sa-he

sarvadrig-viewer of all

upadrastwa-witness to all

tam-him

bhajan-worship , pray

nirguno-attribute-less

bhavet-becomes

this is the standard meaning of the text as i have understood with my limited knowledge of sanskrit. the two different understandings arise from two different interpretations of the word nirguna.

if nirguna means merely beyond modes of material nature(trigunatita) then it would imply to the nirguna of brahman also . then there should be no objection to the concept of brahman . for then nirguna would mean that barahman is beyond naterial modes. it would not mean impersonal or something like that !

secondly if it actually means trigunatita then why wasnt the original word used instead?

thirdly charitmarita itself educates us that there may be many meanings of any texts but the one with the direct meaning is to be accepted in rejection of secondary meanings(lakshana artha) . here the clear meaning of the word is attribute-less and secondary meaning is beyond material modes ? why should one take up the secondary meaning ?

someone knows the answers?

ka tvam shubhe shivakare sukhadukhahaste

aaghurnitam bhavajalam prabalormibhangaih

shantim vidhatumiha kim bahudha vibhagnam

maatah prajatnaparamasi sadaiva vishwe .

o benevolent mother , in your two hands are the happiness and the sorrow . who are you ? the mighty waves in the ocean of material existence is ever tossing over with roaring sound ! are you the one who patiently endeavours to re-establish the broken peace in this world ?

sampadayantyaviratam twabiraamvrittwa

ya vai sthita kritaphalam twakritasya netri

sa me bhavatwanudinam varada bhavani

janamyaham dhruvamiyam dhritakarmapaashaa .

the devi who assigns the fruits of the actions to the respective persons , and one who takes the persons who have transcended karmic law back to her doors , let that bhavani bless me . i know for certain that it is she , who holds the rope of karma in her hands .

kim va kritam kimakritam kkwa kapaalalekhah

kim karma va phalamihaasti hi yam vina bhoh

icchagunairniyamita niyamah svatantraih

yashyah sada bhavatu sa sharanam maamadya .

let that devi be my eternal shelter , without whom there can be no dharma , adharma , writings of fate or karma and whose free will appears like natural laws to us out of ignorance.

santanayanti jaladhim janimrityujaalam

sambhavayantyavikritam vikritam vibhagnam

yasyah vibhutaya ihamitashaktipaalaah

naashritya taam vada kutah sharanam vrajaamah .

all over this entire samsara is expanded the inconcievable energy of devi as the net-trap of birth and death which is destroying and illusioning even the best of souls . tell me , with whom shall i seek refuge other than she ??!!

mitre ripau twavishamam tava padmanetram

swasthehasukhe tvavitaathastava hastapaatah

chhaayaa mritestava daya twamritancha maatah

munchantu mam na parame shubhadristayaste .

the compassionate glance of your lotus eyes falls equally on both friend and foe . your mercifull touch is felt by both happy and sorrowfull persons in this earth . o mother , this mundane life and its end(death) both are but fragments of your unlimited compassion . o mahavedi , do not remove your purifying glance of compassion from me !

ka ambaa shivaa kva grinanam mama hinabuddheh

dorbhyam vidhrtumiva yami jagadwidhaatrim

chintyam shriyah sucharanam twabhayapratishtam

sevaparairabhinutam sharanam prapadye .

there is a huge difference between my actual mother and these insignificant praises that i am singing in her name. as if i am trying to embrace the creator of this cosmos with these small arms of a child ! i seek the shelter of that mother on whose lotus feet does laksmi meditate and below which is the abode of the rare mukti .

ya mam chiraya vinayatyati dukhamaargaih

aasiddhitah swakalitailalitairvilasaih

ya me matim suvidadhe satatam dharanyam

samba shiva mama gatih sataphaleiphale va .

one who is taking me through the beautiful path filled with mind captivating plays(lila) of unending sorrows and always appearing as noble intelligence in this world , let that benevolent mother be my one and only way , whether i ever succeed in my path or fail in my struggles !!

------------ SWAMI VIVEKANANDA

well , i just came across this sloka in my charitamrita which is originally from srimad bhagavatam 10th canto 88thchapter 5th sloka-

"harirhi nirgunah saakshat purushah prakriteh parah

sa sarvadrig upadrashta tvam bhajannirguno bhavet "

translation of the originally bengali translation --

one who worships sri hari becomes nirguna , because sri hari himself is nirguna , beyond prakriti , god(purusha) himself and witness to everything .

now this reflects the thought that a devotee attains the characteristics of the diety he worships . and this also indicates to the nirguna nature of sri hari and attests to the advaitic concept of mukti ( becoming nirguna ).

what do you think of this ?

* can someone provide the iskcon or gaudiya math transaltions and purports to the same for me to compare ?

in bengal there is a bhakti song writer of early 20th century named 'rajanikant' .

some of his songs are so touchy and spiritual that it cannot be expalined . translations wont do any justice to the original bhava !

in one such song he says " tumi aroop saroop sugauna nirguna dayal bhayal hari he . aami kiba bhuji aami kiba jani ami keno bheve mori he ?............ "

this translates as --

you are without form with form saguna nirguna compassionate and fearfull at the same time , o hari !

what do i understand of your qualities ? what do i know of you ? and why do i spend time in speculating on these ?

i dont know where i have come from and where i shall go in the end . im only comforted by the thought that it is you who have brought me and it is to you that i shall go in the end !!..................

kaivalya is like hell

what i feel is that such comparisions were drawn to emphasize the need of selfless love to krishna and to ensure that aspirants do not fall back to desire for mukti . secondly in the days of mahaprabhu advaita was quite orthodox and advaitins were often puffed up and arrogant ispite having least practical spiritual experience themselves . this is what prompted the gaudiyas of that time to seperate themselves from such a proud and haughty sect . but after so many years this difference has shrunk a lot .

i dont think kaivalya should be termed as so dreaded , it is better if someone doesnt crave for it but its not hell for sure . if thats the case there is no explanation for pursuing bhakti . if the ultimate end is mukti and that is so terrifying why should one practise this path ?

a pandit told me that it is done as a ritual just before you do puja you get cleaned and get ready similarly deity is also gotten ready with rituals.Abhishekham can be mantra abhishekham,abhishekham with milk etc.

i read somewhere it is done to invoke the deity.

yes thats the abhishekam before prana-pratishta- the purificatory abhishekam . in durga puja of bengal an elaborate abhishekam needs to be done on the reflected image of the originally clay deity to purify her before life can be infused and is also continued for the reat of the days till vijaya dashami . and this abhishekam is the most elaborate as per my knowledge . apart from the usual panchamrita , panchyagabya and fruit juices some of the other items used are - water from all tirthas, water from sarawati , tribeni , bindu sarobar , sea , rain water , water of dew drops , coconut water , sugarcane juice , sarvaushadi , mahoushadi(medicinal herbs powder) goldwater ,siverwater, mandakini water , clay from both sides of a river , clay from doorstpes of a temple , clay from doorsteps of a royal palace , clay from yagyashala , clay stuck on the tip of a boars teeth , clay stuck on a horse's teeth , clay stuck on the tip of a elephants tusk , clay from himalayas , clay from a four point road crossing , ganga clay , sahsradhara etc etc . then comes the eight different pitchers containing eight different waters like sandal water , lotus water etc each of which is to be poured with singing of a mantra in a particular ragini or raga and paricular instruments . for example 1st pitcher-lotus water with malavi raag and panchavadya(metallic sound, drums , conch, vina and jayadhwani in voice) !!

but day to day abhishekam in any temple are merely his regular bath -- like in case of salagram shila .

When the Brahman is described in Vedic literature as nirvisesa it has nothing to do with personality or lack thereof. It refers to the uniformity of Brahman, or lack of visesa, or differentiations.

great !! finally someone from gaudiya vaishnavism has understood this . i have been trying to say this for long .!! good

when you say two there is always a one !!!

and when you say one there is also a two . so i feel dvaita and advaita both are parrallel truths about what we percieve as god.

Can a conclusion be drawn that an uttama-bhagavata gives up an idea of a personal God?

 

i dont think that he would become a total impersonalist . but of course there is a continuous search of unity all along different sects of hinduism . sometimes as in case of advaitist sadhak , this unity is dragged to extreme levels . in dvaita marga this unity is also reched but through a divine personality . the desire to feel this unity remains all along . without personally feeling this unity there is no chance of love towards all or being fearless. you can only love all when you see either yourself(advaita) or your ideal(dvaita) in all .

ultimately there is a mild advaita in every philosophy ! vishista-advaita ,dvaita-advaita etc . even when youy say dvaita it automatically indicates the existence of advaita . when you say two there is always a one !!!

Caitanya caritamrta is crystal clear .There is no room for ambiguity.

is it ? what might be the logic behind this sloka qouted in charitamrita from bhaktirasamritasindhu , 4/73 --

"byamohaya charaacharasya jagataste ............................................

..................................vivechanavyatikaram niteshu nishchiyate "

which translates as :

let the puranas and the agamas which glorify their respective gods speculate and continue doing that till the end of kalpa but all agamas eventually points out that lord vishnu is the supreme god.

if many other puranas and agamas differ then how can this decision be so comfortably arrived ? does that mean that only vaishnva puranas are to be read ? secondly this gives the highest position to vishnu not krishna . then agin in GV it is krishna who is highest and has four gunas more than vishnu(venumadhuri , lilamadhuri etc etc) . now that creates a inconsistency .

lastly i would like to mention that i just translated it from the original bengali translation and so there might be some small mistakes . but the central theme of the sloka is intact . i would be gratefull if someone provides a iskcon or gaudiya math translation of the same sloka(20th chapter , 143 )

Well do you know this is not a nationalist forum,there are more foreigners here in this thread than indians.

The indian people are here too busy with jyotish and mantra tantra

The vedic astrology is the site which is full of indian and i think there are 97% only indians there.

So you think what the indians here are interested in.

what do you think ? an average indian is less spiritual than an average western guy ?????!!!!!!!!!!!